Decentralized Versus Top Down

[rdenner]

I can't help but see this re-occuring threads throughout all the Ron Paul Forums I frequent(and the Meetups I'm a part of). We are torn between two polar opposite philosophies.

Top Down versus Decentralized. I will tell you what it was like in Ames Iowa. We for the most part had no centralized planning. The REALLY big things like Tent and space obviously were taken care of by national HQ. But things like the GIANT banner raised 80 feet in the air, the table covers the Giant fans and a hundred other small details were taken care of spontaneously by the volunteers.

WHY?? Because it had to get done, and... Well it got taken care of..

I am currently reading a book about 4th generational warfare and the coming wave of new terrorist tactics. This book can very easily be adapted to fit politics as well. It's all about decentralization and open source warfare.

The idea in the world of terrorism, is the idea that you might have dozens and dozens of completely different groups all with one over riding ends. In Iraq, that ends is the expulsion of the USA from their homeland. These disperate groups try dozens and dozens and dozens of tactics. They share information when they can(using the internet where possible). They tell each other what tactics worked and which didn't.

Some will throw really "crazy" ideas out there and see if they can get other groups to help them. Those ideas that are vetted out and proven are used, until they don't work anymore.

This type of warfare is almost impossible to beat by a lumbering 3rd generation warfare model. They are incapable of keeping up. They can't come up with a ONE SIZE FITS ALL TACTIC to defeat the terrorists as there isn't just ONE enemy.

I hate using this type of analogy, but it so fits how we operate. We are dozens of different groups. Some are libertarians, some are liberals who oppose the war, anti-federal reserve types, whatever. We all have an OVER RIDING goal and that is the over throw of the current paradigm.

For whatever reason WE ALL SEE RON PAUL as the best vehicle for implementing that paradigm change.

To those that want to change our strength into a weakness, I say this to you with all due respect. LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE. This is a war they will never be able to win against us. We are too talented too difuse and too quick for them to defeat.

Even if Ron Paul doesn't win the nomination(which I am feeling stronger and stronger about his chances every week), our coalition of unlikely bedfellows will remain. We have found a tactic that they can't counter and that is OPEN SOURCE POLITICAL WARFARE. The longer we do this, the better we'll get at it.

This whole campaign is an exercise in a WHOLE NEW POLITICAL PARADIGM.

FUCK THOSE THAT WANT TO CENTRALIZE US... That is the 3rd generation of political hacks who want to pull us into their looser warfare model..

The Ron Paul Revolution is a view of a brand new political paradigm

Robert

[yoshimaroka]

Bam!

[foofighter20x]

Again I will make the point that duplication of effort will be our downfall.

If everyone is out making signs, then who is going to be handing out flyers or organizing rallies or Meet-Ups?

If everyone is online reading news and sending emails to the national media, then who is doing any of the above? Who is making phone calls, who is out networking and building relationships and laying inroads into the GOP? Who is making videos or DVDs, or radio commericals? Who is trying to get on local TV or other media?

No one.

You are correct when you say centralized CONTROL is not needed. But what is needed is centralized PURPOSE and a division of labor among supporters so that every task is completed.

We can leave no stone unturned when seeking voters to convert to our team. However, if we are all turning over one stone again and again, we shouldn't be supporised when we don't keep find more people under it.

[jb4ronpaul]

You can fight it all you want but people will naturally form an organized structure on their own in order to be more effective. There are some things 10 people can do better working together than if each individual did it on there own. It is what teams are all about. However the opposite is also true for other things.

Everyone, just realize there are some aspects of this campaign that need to be done decentralized, there are some that need to be centralized. We have the decentralized part working well already, now we need to add in the organized part. You are both right, that is why you argue so much. If we have both we will be the most effective we can possibly be. If you don't like the centralized aspects don't join in, but someone is going to need to do it. Do what you choose to do, but how about stopping the vulgar attacks.

[mdh]

I think loosely affiliated teams, regionally/by state seems best, depending on region/state size, with open communication to others near them - without any top-down organizational structure or leadership work best. This is about what we're at now. Some people do more work, and others do less. Some people contribute more money, and some less. But I'd say that we are organized, there just isn't some leadership structure handing down tasks. People get together locally, or communicate outside of their local groups, to figure out what needs to be done and get it done.

Here in WV, Kent and I organize a lot up here in the North, Jeff is active with what few folks there are in the panhandle, and Larry coordinates down south. I also do my best to coordinate folks around the state. So do all of the others. None of us have some sort of grasp on leadership, we each take up the initiative to do things when possible. Larry and his Charleston folks are doing this Regatta event down there, and I'mma drag my pals up here down for it. I've also coordinated with Tom up in Pittsburgh before. You know what's really key though? All of those people I mentioned and others, many of whom are less active, get along. I'd say I'm pretty friendly with them, though there are some folks I see/interact with more than others. I've made some real friends in this campaign! :) That's key.

It just happens organically. Introducing some sort of forced leadership structure, shoved down peoples' throats, would create far more problems than it could ever solve.

[maxmerkel]

@foofighter
of course you are for topdown control, you are a moderator :D ;)

@rdener
i think this is exactly the right tactic.
any needed forms of organization will develop organically
after a while the meetup organizers will know each other and have a short wire to their neighboring groups, people with special skills in certain areas will have a good reputation after a while and if they try to get something done or raise money the people are willing to help ......

you can't beat kollektivism/totaliarism by having a top down structure ! this is my firm belief ! if you try to do so you'll end up being nothing else than the very enemy you are trying to overcome!

[d'anconia]

As far as I'm concerned this forum should be headquarters for the grassroots campaign.

[LibertyEagle]

Again I will make the point that duplication of effort will be our downfall.

If everyone is out making signs, then who is going to be handing out flyers or organizing rallies or Meet-Ups?

If everyone is online reading news and sending emails to the national media, then who is doing any of the above? Who is making phone calls, who is out networking and building relationships and laying inroads into the GOP? Who is making videos or DVDs, or radio commericals? Who is trying to get on local TV or other media?

No one.

You are correct when you say centralized CONTROL is not needed. But what is needed is centralized PURPOSE and a division of labor among supporters so that every task is completed.

We can leave no stone unturned when seeking voters to convert to our team. However, if we are all turning over one stone again and again, we shouldn't be supporised when we don't keep find more people under it.

For the record. I agree. Foo is not talking about a bureaucracy or top down control at all. But, for some things we need to be organized. Or some of the critical strategic things that need to be done, will not be.

For example, think about what Jennifer was trying to get us to do with universities. That takes planning and preparation. Much of that, lucky for us, she spent the time to do. But, if it's going to be done nationwide more of us are going to have to get on-board to help, right? We could ask her what she distributed and add to it, or subtract from it as we choose. We could then even get a massive printing job done for a bunch of us to work together to reach out to students. Why recreate the wheel on this over and over, if some of the groundwork has already been laid? And my guess is that absolutely zippo will be done, unless someone leads the way and others agree to join the effort. This is not a bureaucracy. It is you, me and a whole lot of other people, freely signing onto an effort, sharing information and then going out and getting it done. How about it?

I offer the above as an example of why we need some level of organization. There could be a whole lot of similar things going on around the country.

We are running out of time!

[max]

our task is infinitely complicated by the fact that we are under a media blackout....the media provides the "top tier" clowns with literally BILLIONS worth of free publicity...

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, I know, Max. But the rest of 'em also don't have passionate supporters like Dr. Paul has. They also don't have the character, integrity and record, Dr. Paul has. He is the true conservative. They know it. Now, we just have to make everyone know it and they won't stand a chance.

We really can do this. Your flyer is a case in point. It's out-of-the-box thinking like that, that is going to make us win this thing. If we only can figure out the working together thing, no one could stop us.

[AMack]

Top-down is expensive. Let the forums be the meeting room for ideas and goals. Decentralization is inexpensive, less restrictive, and it empowers each individual to be as powerful and involved as they want to be. Decentralization encourages individuals to come up with their own ideas, creating a great place for innovation to grow. Innovation is exactly what we need.

[foofighter20x]

You are correct when you say centralized CONTROL is not needed. But what is needed is centralized PURPOSE and a division of labor among supporters so that every task is completed.


@foofighter
of course you are for topdown control, you are a moderator :D ;)

...

you can't beat kollektivism/totaliarism by having a top down structure ! this is my firm belief ! if you try to do so you'll end up being nothing else than the very enemy you are trying to overcome!

Read that again and tell me where exactly I said top down control was needed.


Why recreate the wheel on this over and over, if some of the groundwork has already been laid? And my guess is that absolutely zippo will be done, unless someone leads the way and others agree to join the effort. This is not a bureaucracy. It is you, me and a whole lot of other people, freely signing onto an effort, sharing information and then going out and getting it done. How about it?
What she wrote is exactly what I meant.

[Wyurm]

ugh, ok, I'm only going to speak once more on this topic as it should be simple and common sense, yet it seems that it isnt. We are a mirror of what is to come in our government. So if you want small government and freedom, then you want places like this forum for dissemination of ideas, some DIRECTION (which we are receiving) from the campaign, and teamwork which means simply working with each other because we want to not have to.

However, if you want big government then you want a centralized managing site, center, etc... whatever you want to call it. With specific projects that are decided upon by a select few that are considered to be the most active or most passionate or most whatever. This select group would choose what they like then post it in a central area and expect everyone to focus on the project of the moment doing so in the way they specify. This is the opposite of what we are fighting for and thus is hypocritical. Many people will reject this nonsense and do things their own way anyway defeating the whole point of making this centralized thing.

I suggest we use things like this forum as a way to communicate and work on projects without centralizing control over what and how we try to get Dr. Paul elected. I suggest we not waste our precious time arguing about whether or not we should be centralized and just do what needs to be done. If you disagree then look at all we have done just on this forum so far. It was all done without a centralized control center. We DO have organization, its just not the kind that people in the US are used to. We are organized around a central IDEA, not a central government. We all want RP elected and we should all be aware that fighting and bickering will not get him there, neither will working to create the polar opposite of what this campaign stands for. So, please, get RP nominated and stop trying to tyranize the grassroots. We are more powerful as individuals, we just have to understand how to think for ourselves and be motivated. We also need to ask for help when we need it.

[michaelwise]

Again I will make the point that duplication of effort will be our downfall.

If everyone is out making signs, then who is going to be handing out flyers or organizing rallies or Meet-Ups?

If everyone is online reading news and sending emails to the national media, then who is doing any of the above? Who is making phone calls, who is out networking and building relationships and laying inroads into the GOP? Who is making videos or DVDs, or radio commericals? Who is trying to get on local TV or other media?

No one.

You are correct when you say centralized CONTROL is not needed. But what is needed is centralized PURPOSE and a division of labor among supporters so that every task is completed.

We can leave no stone unturned when seeking voters to convert to our team. However, if we are all turning over one stone again and again, we shouldn't be supporised when we don't keep find more people under it. Foo, I don't mean to minimalize your position, because organization and structure is important, in maintaining a functioning system. However, what we have here is redundancy in our system. With our current structure, we are not prone to a massive system wide failure. Think of it as organized kayos.

[mconder]

Thank you. Agreed.

[michaelwise]

I would like to offer a piece of advice for the forum members. When a great Idea pops up, like The March Across America idea, keep bumping it up to the top from time to time, so new members will have a chance to see it and respond.

[mconder]

I can't imagine my local Meetup being any more effective that it is currently. If some national group wants to forum with the intent to organize coordinated efforts that's great. My Meetup is in constant communication. If we see your suggestion and we like it, then great. Otherwise, we will continue doing what we think is best.

[inibo]

I surprised the topics of spontaneous order and self-organization ala Chaos Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_Theory) have not come up in this discussion. Butler Shaffer (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer-arch.html) is one of the few people I know of who is attempting to apply it to the study of political and social organization.


Current society is rapidly being transformed from vertically-structured, institutionally-dominant systems into horizontally-interconnected networks. Our world is becoming increasingly decentralized, with questions arising as to the forms emerging social systems may take. The study of chaos informs us that the multifaceted, interrelated nature of complex systems render our world unpredictable. As our understanding of chaos deepens, our faith in institutional omniscience will likely be abandoned.

...you and I are less prone to error in the management of our personal affairs, than is the state in trying to direct the lives of hundreds of millions of individuals. In addition to our separate interests, the variables confronting events in your life and mine are less numerous, and more localized, than those with which the state deals in its efforts to collectively control all of humanity. If you or I make an error in judgment, you or I suffer the consequences. When the state errs in its planning, mankind in general may suffer.

A major lesson that will likely emerge from the study of chaos is that our world is simply too complex to be centrally managed. If we are to live well in an inconstant and unpredictable society, we need all the personal autonomy and spontaneity that we can muster. Perhaps in the same way that our ancestors learned to shift their thinking from a geocentric to a heliocentric model of the universe, our children and grandchildren will discover that human society functions better when it is organized horizontally rather than vertically. In words that have become increasingly familiar to us, “nothing grows from the top down.”

A World Too Complex To Be Managed (http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer137.html), by Butler Shaffer


I think what we a just beginning to see is an understanding of how the same principles that give rise to spontaneous order in John Horton Conway's Game of Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway's_Game_of_Life) are also in effect on a much richer scale in the real thing.

Class is now in session: http://www.google.com/search?q="chaos+theory"+site:lewrockwell.com

[rdenner]

Great Responses everyone!

I think everyone is getting what I'm talking about in their own way. What we MUST stay away from, is the idea of a TOP down corporate type structure.

I think the point about Jennifer and the Campus push is a perfect example of why the diffuse method works.

Most of the groups realize what a great idea this was and they all sign on to do it. But what if Jennifer had tried to get us all to sign up for a stupid idea? In a corporate top down stucture, we'd all drink the kool-aid and waste our precious resources.

The "crazy" idea fronted by the guy who is putting together the Philli Freedom fest is a pefect example of "throwing ideas" at the wall. Enough people think his idea has merit, so it moves forward. It will continue to move as long as the groups supporting it think it's worthwhile.

In this type of structure there is a place for central authority, it just doesn't neccesarily have to be the final word.

I can't finish my thoughts right now i have dog jumping all over me. So thanks for replying

Robert

[micahnelson]

I think the only thing that might be helpful would be an easier way to manage ideas or projects.

For instance, a voting system where you suggest something, everyone rates it, and it gets put into a top ten list. When the project/event is completed it gets moved to the archives with "lessons learned" by people who participated.

Cost, effectivness, what could have been better, what worked well.

There is no top down control, just good sharing of information.

Those of you who work with computers understand that distributed networks do very well, provided that there is enough information sent between them. This isn't about control its about efficiency. If you want to do a flyer distribution at a sporting event, for instance, but have no photoshop skills, maybe someone has already created a ron paul "sports" flyer.

Maybe you want to make a TV or Radio ad, well you could look up how Lord Xar did it and get information.

Just a thought. May be too hard to get together a system like that so quickly.

[john_anderson_ii]

In this type of structure there is most definitely a place for someone who sees the bigger picture to orchestrate our general direction. It's called commander's intent , and it's one of the major success stories of the USMC. If the intent of command is passed to the NCOs, the NCOs understand this intent, and more importantly, work out how to make it happen. The NCOs are the backbone, they conglomerate on, discuss, and evaluate options.

When it comes to organization, we don't need more campaign level guys, we don't need more indians. Right now we need more chiefs. We need NCOs, and we need them badly. More importantly, I think we need NCOs in charge of meetup groups. We don't need people who can do what they are told! We need people who can take a vision, or a description and figure out the steps in between! That's what realizing commander's intent is all about. It's not about a commander telling you what to do. It's about a commander telling you what needs to be done, and YOU figuring out how to do it.

Of course, me coming from the Marines makes this all seem simple. Never once did you think that "commander's intent" would be something along the lines of "This will happen.". You may have thought it would come out to "I want this to happen", but it rarely does. Commander's intent is "This needs to happen, or future plans will fail." We really need strong men and women who will take this responsibility as if lives and fortunes depended upon it. Unfortunately, they do.

Either way, the "middle management" of NCOs makes the dream a reality every day in the USMC, I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

[foofighter20x]

From one NCO, to a likely other, well said. :)

[john_anderson_ii]

Yes, I'm a "veteran" (i.e. former) Sergeant of Marines. I think all that we, the grassroots, need is a little bit of organization. We need someone from the official campaign to tell us what the campaign would like to accomplish. They need to set the goal.

More importantly, we need men and women to take the ball the campaign launches in our general direction and run with it. Most importantly we need dedicated men and women to follow the example of those already running with the ball, and back them up.

I know liberty is all about personal freedom, but a revolution has never been won without a military. The example of the military provides the organization. The motivation comes from the participants. Motivation without direction is chaos...motivation with direction is inspirational.

If someone from the campaign would like to take charge and deliver some intent, I would accomplish that intent in Phoenix without a moments hesitation. Let me know the "near future" endgame in my neck of the woods, and I will deliver to the best of my, and my brother's in arms, abilities

[foofighter20x]

Who is making phone calls, who is out networking and building relationships and laying inroads into the GOP?

This right here is my biggest concern.

We can get all the supporters in the world, but if we don't build relationships or get involved with the GOP at the local and State levels, and have our presence felt there, we won't get the nomination.

It's that simple.

[john_anderson_ii]

This right here is my biggest concern.

We can get all the supporters in the world, but if we don't build relationships or get involved with the GOP at the local and State levels, and have our presence felt there, we won't get the nomination.

It's that simple.

Amen. Supporters are working everywhere, doing good works, I'm one of them. How efficient are these works? On this board I hear a lot of one side of Ron Paul's argument. That side is liberty and freedom. What about the other side of his argument. The aspect that makes liberty possible? How about responsibility?

We can win this on small unit tactics. It would be so simple if we had a common command and control structure. We don't but we should make one.

Small unit tactics that I would institute.
I) Take over local GOP.
-- Assign well spoken and moderate supporters the personnel and resources necessary to sway the AZGOP.
-- Take over the campuses: Get the followers of RP who are involved in ASU and UofA the media and local backing they would need to accomplish these goals.
--- Sun City. I myself would visit the Sun City VOFW and parley amoung the older Americans who seem to have forgotten what happens when family is replaced by state.
-- Finally, given the authority, and the movements within the campus and retirement communities, I would approach the AZGOP in force.

In each of these cases, appoint someone responsible for accomplishing the goal, and most importantly, direct them to appeal to the local meetup when they need support. If the meetup doesn't respond with support, they should appeal to the one in charge. You HAVE to find the support! The buck stops at the local NCO.

Its not impossible. Its not undoable. It's hard. If it was easy, everyone from Romney to Giulianni would be doing it. They know the can't win when it comes down to people and families. We can win in that arena. Not easily, but doable.

BTW: Sun City is a retirement community that is a suburb of Phoenix in Maricopa County.

[rdenner]

Of course, me coming from the Marines makes this all seem simple. Never once did you think that "commander's intent" would be something along the lines of "This will happen.". You may have thought it would come out to "I want this to happen", but it rarely does. Commander's intent is "This needs to happen, or future plans will fail." We really need strong men and women who will take this responsibility as if lives and fortunes depended upon it. Unfortunately, they do.

Either way, the "middle management" of NCOs makes the dream a reality every day in the USMC, I don't see why it wouldn't work here.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect to you and your service to our country, I wholehearedly disagree. This type of philosophy is the antithesis of what I'm talking about. This is the corporate top down strategy. Even though it's a much more stream lined and better corporate model, it's nontheless a top down approach.

Now that I don't have children and dogs hopping all over me I hope I can illustrate. From your point of view(I don't mean to put words in your mouth, i'm just paraphrasing and not trying to setup strawmen), you have an end result you want to see accomplished. That is Ron Paul(or his philosophies) put into the White House. You find that there is PLENTY of interest and a grassroots organization forms(organicaly). Your way of thinking says to gather the "leader types" together and start forming STRUCTURE. Someone at the top(probably Ron Paul or his Right Hand Man) giving a vision of what he wants. This is passed down to high level subordinates and through either the internet or direct communication, this intent is passed down through many layers of Sub-subordinates down to the grass roots level.

This has been the tried and true meathod of military(and political campaigns) for almost a century and a half(3rd generational warfare).

Let me paint a much different picture of what is happening and what COULD happen if we don't fall into the old paradigm.

The grassroots takes hold(as it is now) and we DON'T fall into a typical top down approach. Ron Paul himself and his philosophy ARE the intent of this coalition of unlikely bedfellows. WE all know why we support Ron Paul and the reasons are numerous and can sometimes seem contradictory. I was in Iowa next to a pro-choice girl who was lightly claping for Ron Paul as he talked about the sanctity of life. She didn't agree with that position, but she KNEW for whatever reason that Ron Paul was the best chance she had to have other things she believed in, implemented.

Now if we follow traditional politics, we create a hard and fast document that says "We Ron Paul supporter believe in (whatever)". We create a structure that best co-ordinates the loose cannons in the grassroots. We find diamonds in the rough who will become the backbone of the structure(future leaders), and will communicate down to the lowest levels.

Lets think about a different way. We ALL SUPPORT RON PAUL for whatever reason that is. There is no ONE reason and there is no ONE type of person who supports him. Our strength right now is the fact that we all come up with different ways of achieving our end. Some will co-ordinate meetups much like a military campaign. A perfect example of that is the Michigan Meetup headed by Paul Garfield. Paul is a very strong leader type, who very much believes in top down management and relishes his role. This is not a problem in my book as he is very effective with that method. He has built a very effective Ron Paul machine up there. BUT, he doesn't want to stop there. He is causing a lot of problems for others in Michigan, because he wants EVERYONE to sign on to what he is doing. He wants to make sure that all ideas run THROUGH him, and he wants to VET all ideas through his paradigm.

I can't disagree more with this type of thinking. There are THOUSANDS of idividuals in this forum alone and the creative ability of this group is unbelievable as is the ability of others in this group to form strong top down "mini" corporate models to accomplish certain tasks, Such as Ames Iowa or other BIG events.

But these "mini" corporate models Can't be allowed to continue to grow as they will end up wanting to coalese all power to them, because they were so succesful in this mini project. Therefore they MUST know how to manage.

The world Ron Paul is attempting to help us build will be a world with LESS leaders and less power centralization. UNLESS we can build that microcosm HERE in the grassroots, then the possibility of it working on a countrywide or a worldwide scale will be impossible.

The grassroots has gotten us this far, let's keep riding this pony as far as it'll take us. I have no doubt that it will take us all the way to the White House and beyond. THIS IS THE VIEW OF THE FUTURE, AND WE ARE BUILDING IT WITH EVERY PHILI FREEDOM FESTIVAL AND MEETUP GROUP WE WORK WITH AND SUPPORT.

Robert

[rdenner]

I just want to make sure the TOP DOWN people understand what I'm saying. There is a place for top down management, it's actually mandatory for us to win. My point about Top Down is to not continue to grow it.

Special purpose Top Down management is crucial to us winning, and is another reason why we are so strong and they can't touch us on organization.

For every one or two "outside the box" thinkers we have on board with us, we have at least a dozen or so Military organizer types. People who thrive on a top down approach.

It takes ALL types to win. The other organization are HEAVY on the top down types and this has ALWAYS been the key to victory in the past. The internet and our ability to DIRECTLY talk to each other is a complete rewrite of past campaigns. So I DO understand the value of a top down approach to achieve certain goals, like a big event. But I think if we allow the grassroots to continue to rewrite the rules as we go, we will get a result that no one expects.

Robert

[constituent]

johnanderson said

I know liberty is all about personal freedom, but a revolution has never been won without a military.

I would say that with the military there is no revolution. maybe a revolution in the full-circle sense, but certainly not one in the human progress sense. this is a revolution of human progress as

inibo so excellently pointed out.

trying to fit this into a military model of "NCO"s probably sounds great if you're in the military. perhaps you should try to organize a military vets for ron paul. then you can have the command intent and a core of NCOs and a bunch of indians to do your bidding. i wouldn't expect it to work w/ the larger grassroots campaign though b/c that essentially defeats the whole concept of "grassroots." it would sorta be a quasi-official syle campaign effort, and that'd be great...

you really should run w/ that.

but this gets down to the idea of

COMMAND
CONTROL
WHATEVER THE HELL IT WAS

that we had a week or two ago. don't care to rehash that one myself, but if you hit the search engine for 'command control' i'm pretty sure you'll find it.

excellent post inibo. i'm young and uneducated, but i've been working on a massive project revolving around that very thing for about 6 yrs. now... maybe we should start a thread?

[john_anderson_ii]

Top down approach....

This is where I disagree. The approach I'm arguing for is much further detached, but more strongly focused that any "Top down" approach ever experimented with by a corporate entity. We Marines have a big advantage....trust. We trust those below us because they aren't competition for our jobs. We NCOs want our junior Marines to have our jobs when we move on or up. This "top down" trust allows for a "bottom up" flow of ideas and inspiration without ill effects for the presenters of the ideas. The NCOs in charge are more than encouraged to follow the ideas of our juniors, we are almost required to.

How many minutes or hours of a grassrooters day are wasted arguing the blogs of a Hannity-ite or a Limbaugher that will never, ever wake up long enough to vote for Ron Paul.

How many minutes or hours of a grassroters day are wasted just trying to figure out what they need to be doing in support of the movement.

Designation of structure does not necessarily mean designation of rank and grade or controll. If we appoint meet-up organizers as NCOs and the campaign gives them the objective, then we meet-up members can rationally work out what needs to happen in order to make that intent a reality in our community and state.

Community and state will win this.....Winning them needs local organization


These communities and states differ greatly among this country. I think it would be best for the campaign to publish their goal. (i.e. X amount of votes from XX state) and for those local to that state to do their all to make sure the campaign gets what they need. XX state just needs a point of contact, a motivator so to speak. Someone who feels responsible enough to bring that level of motivation into the meetup group of XX state.

[john_anderson_ii]

COMMAND
CONTROL
WHATEVER THE HELL IT WAS


Maybe I'm "old school". Maybe I'm dense. Since when did structure and focus come down to some sort of control?

I mean listen to the message of Ron Paul! Where does it say that liberty is free?. Where does the message of Ron Paul come across as "you can have liberty without resposibility?"

I don't think enough supporters of Ron Paul are accepting the payment they have to make for liberty! It's not a payment in gold or tribune. It's a payment in vigilance and responsibility.

I don't want to be in control of the "movement', or even the "forum". I would just like to see someone in each region step up to the plate. I would like to see some direction from the official campaign. I would really like to see those who agree to step up to plate get in touch with the official campaign direction. Then I would like to see those who aren't afraid to take some personal responsibility direct their local meetup groups!


Look at Lord Xar with his flier. It was a huge success in my opinion. Yet the national grassroots gave him a bunch of flack about it, when he was the one on the ground making that happen!

We should back off the local regions, realize the intent of the big picture of the campaign, and act accordingly! Why are people from NY and CA getting involved in the politics of Jersey? Let the local NCOs work it out, they know best "on the ground" where they are.

If you think I'm saying "submit" you have taken me very wrong. I'm saying "take charge!". When you come across someone who is taking charge, I'm saying "follow and participate".

It's not about control, it's about progress! (i.e. Lead, Follow or get the F*ck out of the way) Its important to know who you are supposed to be leading, following, or getting the hell out of the way of. Especially if you are on the same team.

[LibertyEagle]

We can win this on small unit tactics. It would be so simple if we had a common command and control structure. We don't but we should make one.

Small unit tactics that I would institute.
I) Take over local GOP.
-- Assign well spoken and moderate supporters the personnel and resources necessary to sway the AZGOP.
-- Take over the campuses: Get the followers of RP who are involved in ASU and UofA the media and local backing they would need to accomplish these goals.
--- Sun City. I myself would visit the Sun City VOFW and parley amoung the older Americans who seem to have forgotten what happens when family is replaced by state.
-- Finally, given the authority, and the movements within the campus and retirement communities, I would approach the AZGOP in force.

In each of these cases, appoint someone responsible for accomplishing the goal, and most importantly, direct them to appeal to the local meetup when they need support. If the meetup doesn't respond with support, they should appeal to the one in charge. You HAVE to find the support! The buck stops at the local NCO.

Its not impossible. Its not undoable. It's hard. If it was easy, everyone from Romney to Giulianni would be doing it. They know the can't win when it comes down to people and families. We can win in that arena. Not easily, but doable.

BTW: Sun City is a retirement community that is a suburb of Phoenix in Maricopa County.

I think what is throwing people off is using the term, "command and control". I do not think that is necessary to achieving our goals, nor will it be successful. Understand that this phrase, brings "force" to mind, which I'm sure you don't intend. I do agree with you that we need to start laying out strategy, goals and tactics. We also need tools to facilitate communication.

Here is what I recommend, those who agree that this needs to be done, collaborate and develop the forementioned. At each step, it will be critical to get buy-in from the Meetup Group Organiers and the supporters. If the plans are good ones, there should be no trouble doing so. If they are not, then the plans should be reworked. Only if this procedure is followed, will the people be willing or interested in helping carry out the plans.

Keep in mind that people will only freely join in to this effort IF they agree with the strategy and goals. I am warning you though, if someone tries to hijack this effort to carry out another agenda altogether, whether it be Vote-in-Sunshine, AFTF, or something else entirely, you will not get buy-in and I for one, will be screaming from the rooftops. (Note: I mention this because of something mentioned during last week's conference call).

So, those who are interested, start out developing a strategy and bring it back to us and we'll tell you what we think. Then, on to the goals and tactics.

In other words, make it happen. If you have good ideas, the support will follow.

[constituent]

second libertyeagle on that one.

[foofighter20x]

We need a central PLAN, but not central PLANNING.

There's a difference. ;)

[Revolution9]

We need a central PLAN, but not central PLANNING.

There's a difference. ;)

The CENTRAL plan.. Get Ron Paul in The White House as the sitting President.

I don't know about others meetup groups but we knda let everybody run with their strengths. I seem to have the entertainment and rock and art connections and skillsets ..so I am getting a RockFest RP fundraiser together. Someone needed some flyers for college campus. I spotted it on my email list and withing a few hours had a good set on the meetup fles for download. It is a no braner for me to bang out stuff like brochures. Mary has been shuffling to all the local meetup groups and is a de facto leader.. She leads by just being there and smilng.. No orders are ever issued but we will probably have 20-30+ folks at the Freedom Park Rally today waving signs and getting honked at. OTOH.. I offered to play for a libertarian RP fundraiser and mentioned my art credentials. They ignored my request to play and tried to get me to do artwork for them.. My answer.. "Fuck no! You want artwrk from me you pay me 40 bucks an hour..you want me to play a set..that is free." I did not affer to do artwork and I don't take orders well. I do cooperate excellently when left alone to contribute what I WANT to contribute..and I dare say i am doing a dandy job with no "leader" types telling me what to do.. Like many, many of us I await a breach and rush to fill the gap. That is pure organic sensibility. This organic fill in the breach sensibility is the Tree Of Liberty..not The Department Of Liberty.

Best Regards
Randy

[LibertyEagle]

Well Rev, no one would be even attempting to make you or anyone else carry out any one of the game plans. That would be foolish. The only way it would work is if people FREELY want to participate in these activities. :D

For example, Rev.... Do you think there should be a concerted plan to infiltrate the GOP? You may not want to participate in it, but do you think it should be done? If so, it might be beneficial to have a game plan to go about doing that. What do you think? I, for one, don't know the best way to infiltrate the "Party" at the highest levels and I'll bet there are a lot of people just like me. So, what will likely happen? A few will figure it out, or will flail around doing their best in their own states and many others will not even think about it, preferring to focus on other things. Bottom line... it won't get done.

To me, this is about laying out some key things that need to happen and some suggestions and tools for how to make it happen. Those who choose to join in, can, and those who do not want to, can opt out.

This is not a control thing at all. If it was, I would be saying NO!!!! Because "control" would kill this movement just as much as not having some key PLANS.

[foofighter20x]

The CENTRAL plan.. Get Ron Paul in The White House as the sitting President.

I don't know about others meetup groups but we knda let everybody run with their strengths. I seem to have the entertainment and rock and art connections and skillsets ..so I am getting a RockFest RP fundraiser together. Someone needed some flyers for college campus. I spotted it on my email list and withing a few hours had a good set on the meetup fles for download. It is a no braner for me to bang out stuff like brochures. Mary has been shuffling to all the local meetup groups and is a de facto leader.. She leads by just being there and smilng.. No orders are ever issued but we will probably have 20-30+ folks at the Freedom Park Rally today waving signs and getting honked at. OTOH.. I offered to play for a libertarian RP fundraiser and mentioned my art credentials. They ignored my request to play and tried to get me to do artwork for them.. My answer.. "Fuck no! You want artwrk from me you pay me 40 bucks an hour..you want me to play a set..that is free." I did not affer to do artwork and I don't take orders well. I do cooperate excellently when left alone to contribute what I WANT to contribute..and I dare say i am doing a dandy job with no "leader" types telling me what to do.. Like many, many of us I await a breach and rush to fill the gap. That is pure organic sensibility. This organic fill in the breach sensibility is the Tree Of Liberty..not The Department Of Liberty.

Best Regards
Randy

That central plan you give is kinda of more conceptualized central idea than a frameworked/outlined central plan of what is needed.

A central plan would list what needs to be done, but leave to us the means of getting it done. Example: We need a road that runs from Seattle to Chicago and maybe has a few stopoffs in cities along the way. Build us one? We might get them there by air travel too, if that's a good idea. Or is there an evern better way? You guys figure it out.

Central planning, on the other hand, you say this what needs to be done and here is how you will do it. Example: We need a road that runs from Seattle to Chicago and it's going right here whether you like it or not. Who cares that this is Florida?! Build it!

[Nefertiti]

This right here is my biggest concern.

We can get all the supporters in the world, but if we don't build relationships or get involved with the GOP at the local and State levels, and have our presence felt there, we won't get the nomination.

It's that simple.

It can be done. I think this story from yesterday is a positive example for everyone:

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20070824/NEWS/708240326/-1/LIFE

[inibo]

second libertyeagle on that one.

Yep.

I don't think the Foo is saying we need centralized control, though lots of people are reading it that way.

What we need is efficient communication. We need to know what we all are doing so we can 1) avoid duplication of effort, and 2) see what is working in any given context.

Someone mentioned the concept of "distributed computing." That is a very good model. Without a network and feedback to and from each node NOTHING will be accomplished.

[Nefertiti]

One of the advantages we have is that we have a large number of people to generate ideas and simultaneously those people are a large and diverse focus group to bounce those ideas off of and improve them. Philadelphia is a great example. Someone suggested DC. Someone else said that it wouldn't get so much attention because there are protests there all the time. Someone else suggested we do it somewhere else significant. I suggested Philadelphia. Discussion went back and forth on the options and their strengths and weaknesses and then it was settled on Philly. This all happened in a very quick time frame. Again, the process is being repeated in the discussions about possible speakers for the event. This is the sort of thing other campaigns pay big money for consultants to do.

Of course, the organization of the event is important too and we have two people who have stepped forward in those roles that are moving the ball along on Philly.

[Revolution9]

Well Rev, no one would be even attempting to make you or anyone else carry out any one of the game plans. That would be foolish. The only way it would work is if people FREELY want to participate in these activities. :D

For example, Rev.... Do you think there should be a concerted plan to infiltrate the GOP? You may not want to participate in it, but do you think it should be done? If so, it might be beneficial to have a game plan to go about doing that. What do you think? I, for one, don't know the best way to infiltrate the "Party" at the highest levels and I'll bet there are a lot of people just like me. So, what will likely happen? A few will figure it out, or will flail around doing their best in their own states and many others will not even think about it, preferring to focus on other things. Bottom line... it won't get done.

To me, this is about laying out some key things that need to happen and some suggestions and tools for how to make it happen. Those who choose to join in, can, and those who do not want to, can opt out.

This is not a control thing at all. If it was, I would be saying NO!!!! Because "control" would kill this movement just as much as not having some key PLANS.

I think an analogy I can use to describe us is a flock of bird navigating by electromagnetics. Giant flocks of birds can all go in the same direction with no apparent leader.. There will be those up front and those straggling behnd as well as fliers being flung to the edges of a major turn or swoop..but they all manage to stick together.

I am down on the take over the Republican Party. In this context, what I am seeing from various videos of the local GOP meetups is that the base..excluding RP supporters is getting OLD.. moribund.. It is clinging hard to the agitprop fed to it over the last 30 years by the entrenched Oligarchic money powers to be its henchman. This is a prime opportunity to begin the local-up changing of GOP lodge agendas. It can be done because as the straw polls show..we have the numbers to change things on a local vote and vocal level. The bright side to the old folks who are hanging on is that they will probably have families with grown children and perhaps gradnchildren. These offspring may jump in the breach with RP support in hand and mind and bridge a generation gap. That would be something for generational gap frustrated parents to marvel at.. Their kids and them having the same political viewpoint. I know I am psyched that my 22 year old son and his 15 year old stepbrother are gonna be out there waving signs with me today at 3 for The Revolution.

Do I know how to go about this? Wel.. I have one overarching strategy that seems to work in almost all of these unrigged cases. The sheer weight of numbers. We are trying to get our meetup members out to every GOP function in the surrounding counties and trying to push the meetup groups up into the North Georgia mountains where alot of war support still exists as the internet is not wired all over the mostly rural mountains. I am partly guilty for not showing up but there is money isues which i am getting back on track, due to my "addiction" to the RP thing and getting this, that and the other done whilst reading as much as I could to extensively handle any debate about RP's platform. A good read through American history, both the approved official version and what many around here may call the "tinfoil hat" version is highly beneficial. When you cite facts with author and book names or quotes by Fonding Fathers it leaves the oppositions dick in the dirt.

So..do I know how to get those numbers there? No.. I have a suggestion. Use the flock of birds analogy and just let everybody in your local meetups know when a GOP functon is and ask them to attend if the financial situation wll let them. Perhaps some of the older more established could help the young collge student types to attend by offering to pay ther ticket to the function held by their local GOP..College students are notoriously low on cash and its ramen noodles time if they have to spend 35 bucks on a barbecue function.. Yeah they get one meal out of t..but 35 bucks buys several meals for a student. I could see some semi centralized cooperative being formed to handle financial issues. That would make sense and some sort of leader type..good with accounting and finacial stuff and known as an honest broker..to handle that.

As for..make a brochure..wave a sign.. go do this..go do that.. I think that once some birds start flying in a certain direction that the rest of the flock..should it "feel" the electromagnetics are confluent to their flight path... will join in the flight.

Bes Regards
Randy

[Revolution9]

That central plan you give is kinda of more conceptualized central idea than a frameworked/outlined central plan of what is needed.

]

I always make my own frameworks and proceed from there. I take into account the overarching needs of my local area and fill in the breach or make suggestions as to how to. I do not have time to fit someone elses schedule. They swtched the meetuop time to 12 noon on a Monday.. Sorry..ain't gonna go. Now..if I was awaiting marching orders from some centralized figure I would miss my orders and sit on my hands. ButI am not awaiting anyone's orders. Ergo I do what i have to get done. When I get ti done I distribute it..

Mind you the stuff I am dong is unique to my talents and connections and I lke that i bring unique ideas and activities. I seem to be well thought of for what i have contributed already though i could do more.. It is a balance between time for non-payng work versus rent and food paying work. In ths regards a centralised control mechanism with an agenda and schedule will be a total bust for me. I will never hit their deadlines.

I see the leaders emerging locally and organically as folks look to those wth experience in the area they are tryng to accomplish something at to get sage advice. They are generally reluctant leaders in that their goal is not to be a leader. They are cooperators and that is respected.. Again I will point out I offered my musical efforts for a fundraiser. They know am a top artist around town and wanted me to do artwork whilst dismissing my musical enqury out of hand. Guess the4y thought they were in charge or something of me.."(Fuck) NO (asshole!) I asked to do music and you (fucking) delegate artwork of me?!! (You pompous shit.).no (fucking way)!!".. Sorry for the cussing folks but that was my atitude. What did I do.. They shut me out so made my own festival and now they are coming to me wanting to muscle in and promote the Libertarian Party. I said no. We ae trying to take over the Republican Party and your efforts will be divisive. This is for Ron Paul..not the local libertarian party agenda..regardless of their RP support. The Libertarians will not get enough power consoldated quickly enough to stop world thermonuclear warfare. Our only chance to tear America out of the oligarchs hands is to take the Republican Party over and return it to its true roots. With centralised command structures giving orders and creating schedules they can topple it easly by infiltration or trojan horse. They cannot achieve this with the current organic structure.

Best Regards
Randy

[constituent]

Wel.. I have one overarching strategy that seems to work in almost all of these unrigged cases. The sheer weight of numbers. We are trying to get our meetup members out to every GOP function in the surrounding counties and trying to push the meetup groups up into the North Georgia mountains where alot of war support still exists as the internet is not wired all over the mostly rural mountains.

thus spoke the rev.

you hit on the two most important things. the generational shift and the technological shift, the birth of a very large social brain.

i think the GOP party will be taken over with time regardless of what happens right now, because people do agree w/ the freedom message but don't necessarily realize it. even those old folks, it is just a matter of waking them up.

the big thing people could do to take over the GOP on any level is increase awareness of the world in which we live. so many people have the absolute blinders on. it is unfortunate but true. life is just too hectic for some people, they'll still trying to catch up with last week ya know?

encouraging and educating old folks on how they can use the computer/internet to get informed. Making sure the screen is set on something comfortable for their eyes, etc. it'd really make a world of difference.

the truth is, this election (republican party, nomination, presidency) will ultimately be determined at dairy queen. atleast in states like texas.

[LibertyEagle]

"So..do I know how to get those numbers there? No.. I have a suggestion. Use the flock of birds analogy and just let everybody in your local meetups know when a GOP functon is and ask them to attend if the financial situation wll let them. Perhaps some of the older more established could help the young collge student types to attend by offering to pay ther ticket to the function held by their local GOP."

Rev, that is very much what I am talking about. Who is doing that? No one, that I know of. This is just one example.

I agree with you that we absolutely do not want to be waiting around for any kind of orders from on high. Nor, even if we do have recommendations being communicated nationwide, does anyone who does not choose to participate, need to.

Here's the thing. I think most of us agree that it would be a great thing if HQ could lay out some things at a high level that they wish we'd go after. But, because of BIG brother FEC rules, they cannot. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't create our own short list and act upon it accordingly, does it?

[Revolution9]

Rev, that is very much what I am talking about. Who is doing that? No one, that I know of. This is just one example.

I agree with you that we absolutely do not want to be waiting around for any kind of orders from on high. Nor, even if we do have recommendations being communicated nationwide, does anyone who does not choose to participate, need to.

Here's the thing. I think most of us agree that it would be a great thing if HQ could lay out some things at a high level that they wish we'd go after. But, because of BIG brother FEC rules, they cannot. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't create our own short list and act upon it accordingly, does it?


I a late for my rally but have a beer to finish and it s one block away.. here is my short answer.. We seem to be doig this already.. If not I suggest everybody on a meetup list put the ~suggestion~ out to their flock of birds.

Best
Randy
--gotta go yell FREEEEEDOMMM! at all the cars..l8r..