Bankrupt socialist city

[ronpaul.republican]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/02/pf/retirement/vallejo.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2008060305

California city declares bankruptcy to avoid keeping promises to city retirees. ROTFLMAO

Americans who have worshipped socialist ideology are getting everything they deserve. I hope they drown in their own blood.

May the USA burn itself to a crisp and may we start fresh after burying all the rotting socialist corpses.

[SLSteven]

They forgot that they don't have the money printing press like their Fed counterpart

[Primbs]

This was predictable. Many of us were screaming about this in the eighties. Holy crap. Policemen are making 122 thousand a year plus a pension that pays 90% of their top pay indexed to inflation.

[Truth Warrior]

Isn't bankrupt AND socialist a mere redundancy? :D

[Danke]

Private corporations have been wiping out defined benefit retirement plans for years. It was just a matter of time they went after public pensions. If they whittle down the middle class, who was going to pay the taxes for these lavish pensions? I guess one fix is to inflate and not index the pensions.

[Truth Warrior]

Private corporations have been wiping out defined benefit retirement plans for years. It was just a matter of time they went after public pensions. If they whittle down the middle class, who was going to pay the taxes for these lavish pensions? I guess one fix is to inflate and not index the pensions. Yep, the 78,000,000 aging boomers will just LOVE that one. :rolleyes:

[RevolutionSD]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/02/pf/retirement/vallejo.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2008060305

California city declares bankruptcy to avoid keeping promises to city retirees. ROTFLMAO

Americans who have worshipped socialist ideology are getting everything they deserve. I hope they drown in their own blood.

May the USA burn itself to a crisp and may we start fresh after burying all the rotting socialist corpses.

This is the tip of the iceberg.
Only F'd up situations like this are going to cause people to look for real solutions for change.

WE as libertarians need to be there to show how the free market is the ONLY solution, and we must never go back into socialist HELL ever again.

[Anti Federalist]

This was predictable. Many of us were screaming about this in the eighties. Holy crap. Policemen are making 122 thousand a year plus a pension that pays 90% of their top pay indexed to inflation.

Article I saw had police captains making 250k year.:eek:

[yongrel]

"But the real nail in Vallejo's coffin was the city's labor costs. Under the current labor agreement, the average police officer walking the beat in Vallejo will be paid $122,000 this year before overtime, according to city documents. An average sergeant will make $151,000; a captain, $231,000. The average firefighter, meanwhile, will bring in $130,000 before overtime."

[Danke]

Yep, the 78,000,000 aging boomers will just LOVE that one. :rolleyes:

Roll your eyes, but they are already doing it with SS. The index is nothing compared to the real rate of inflation (especially where it counts for those on fixed incomes, food and energy).

[Truth Warrior]

The People's Republic of California. :p :rolleyes:

[Ethek]

This is the tip of the iceberg.
Only F'd up situations like this are going to cause people to look for real solutions for change.

WE as libertarians need to be there to show how the free market is the ONLY solution, and we must never go back into socialist HELL ever again.

sadly this will just lead to more cries for regulation and more centralized government control.

The only thing that will end it all is the complete collapse of the dollar and some fascist that assumes complete powers as 'president' Woe unto the citizens of the united states then because there will be no other country willing to take us or our money.

[Primbs]

For a private person to save that much for a fixed pension indexed to inflation, he would have to put away millions of dollars away in a retirement account.

To earn 100K from a pension you would need millions of dollars earning about 2 to 3 percent a year. Rates are low right now.

So a quick way to have the same nest egg as a multimillionaire, become a government worker.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Vallejo is already on our rolling list of Bankruptcies for 2008... here's the thread under Liberty Forest/economic thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=132770 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=132770)

[Truth Warrior]

For a private person to save that much for a fixed pension indexed to inflation, he would have to put away millions of dollars away in a retirement account.

To earn 100K from a pension you would need millions of dollars earning about 2 to 3 percent a year. Rates are low right now.

So a quick way to have the same nest egg as a multimillionaire, become a government worker.
Have you seen the US Congress' pension program abomination? :rolleyes:

[Primbs]

What is the congressional pension these days?

The California state government has a lucrative pay scale too.

LA County and LA City Hall pay very well.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Salaries and Benefits of U.S. Congress Members

Congress: Rank-and-File Members' Salary

(2008) Salary for rank-and-file members of the House and Senate: $169,300 per year.

* Members are free to turn down pay increase and some choose to do so.

* In a complex system of calculations, administered by the Office of Personnel Management, congressional pay rates also affect the salaries for federal judges and other senior government executives.

* During the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin considered proposing that elected government officials not be paid for their service. Other Founding Fathers, however, decided otherwise.

* From 1789 to 1815, members of Congress received only a per diem (daily payment) of $6.00 while in session. Members began receiving an annual salary in 1815, when they were paid $1,500 per year.

Congress: Leadership Members' Salary (110th Congress)

Leaders of the House and Senate are paid a higher salary than rank-and-file members.
Senate Leadership

Majority Leader - $188,100
Minority Leader - $188,100

House Leadership

Speaker of the House - $217,400<=== Nancy Pelosi
Majority Leader - $188,100
Minority Leader - $188,100

A cost-of-living-adjustment (COLA) increase takes effect annually unless Congress votes to not accept it.

Congress: Benefits

You may have read that Members of Congress do not pay into Social Security. Well, that's a myth.

Prior to 1984, neither Members of Congress nor any other federal civil service employee paid Social Security taxes. Of course, the were also not eligible to receive Social Security benefits. Members of Congress and other federal employees were instead covered by a separate pension plan called the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS). The 1983 amendments to the Social Security Act required federal employees first hired after 1983 to participate in Social Security. These amendments also required all Members of Congress to participate in Social Security as of January 1, 1984, regardless of when they first entered Congress. Because the CSRS was not designed to coordinate with Social Security, Congress directed the development of a new retirement plan for federal workers. The result was the Federal Employees' Retirement System Act of 1986.

Members of Congress receive retirement and health benefits under the same plans available to other federal employees. They become vested after five years of full participation.

Members elected since 1984 are covered by the Federal Employees' Retirement System (FERS). Those elected prior to 1984 were covered by the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS). In 1984 all members were given the option of remaining with CSRS or switching to FERS.

As it is for all other federal employees, congressional retirement is funded through taxes and the participants' contributions. Members of Congress under FERS contribute 1.3 percent of their salary into the FERS retirement plan and pay 6.2 percent of their salary in Social Security taxes.

Members of Congress are not eligible for a pension until they reach the age of 50, but only if they've completed 20 years of service. Members are eligible at any age after completing 25 years of service or after they reach the age of 62. Please also note that Member's of Congress have to serve at least 5 years to even receive a pension.

The amount of a Congressperson's pension depends on the years of service and the average of the highest 3 years of his or her salary. By law, the starting amount of a Member's retirement annuity may not exceed 80% of his or her final salary.

According to the Congressional Research Service, 413 retired Members of Congress were receiving federal pensions based fully or in part on their congressional service as of Oct. 1, 2006. Of this number, 290 had retired under CSRS and were receiving an average annual pension of $60,972. A total of 123 Members had retired with service under both CSRS and FERS or with service under FERS only. Their average annual pension was $35,952 in 2006.

[Rhys]

how is this socialist? seems like they blew their budget because they overpay, not because they redistribute wealth.

[WRellim]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/02/pf/retirement/vallejo.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2008060305

California city declares bankruptcy to avoid keeping promises to city retirees. ROTFLMAO

Americans who have worshipped socialist ideology are getting everything they deserve. I hope they drown in their own blood.

May the USA burn itself to a crisp and may we start fresh after burying all the rotting socialist corpses.

This is only the first of MANY.

And not only Cities, but entire State governments are likely to do this over the next few years as well. (We already have the examples of the large corporations, like GM, Ford, etc -- doing everything they can to either buyout, or ditch their entire pension systems).

What I think (and *fear*) will come next will the the "retirement consolidation" move by the government... by that I mean the full-blown roll-up of ALL the various governmental pension plans, and then to "fund" them, the additional step of the virtual "confiscation" of 401K and IRA accounts (though of course they won't CALL it "confiscation" -- you'll still get a "report" showing how much you have in your account... much like the stupid Soc. Sec. "reports" -- but you'll have only "restricted" access to the funds, to "prevent a panic" or some similar justification) and the combining of all of it into the massive PBGC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pension_Benefit_Guaranty_Corporation) or perhaps even more likely some "newly created" monster (like the "Homeland Security" thing...) that then swallows the PBGC and the 401K and IRA money and doles out the leavings to the peasants on command of the "elite" at a subsistence level -- just enough to avoid riots by the old people in walkers and wheelchairs.

Thus we will end up with virtually the entire stock market (via the 401K's and MF's etc under the DIRECT control of government appointed bureaucrats -- though most likely "contracted" out to Wall Street firms in order to maintain the illusion of a "free-market" economy, and at the same time allow financiers to bilk the masses in yet another [final?] round of fraud.)

You heard it here first guys.

[Truth Warrior]

how is this socialist? seems like they blew their budget because they overpay, not because they redistribute wealth.

The issue was the COLA pegged to inflation.

[Rhys]

The issue was the COLA pegged to inflation.

i don't know if it matters when it's pegged to CPI and not real inflation.

[Kade]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/02/pf/retirement/vallejo.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2008060305

California city declares bankruptcy to avoid keeping promises to city retirees. ROTFLMAO

Americans who have worshipped socialist ideology are getting everything they deserve. I hope they drown in their own blood.

May the USA burn itself to a crisp and may we start fresh after burying all the rotting socialist corpses.

This is why I fear conservatives... you are truly heartless clowns.

[Truth Warrior]

i don't know if it matters when it's pegged to CPI and not real inflation.

Congress WILL find a way to cover their own ............. at our expense. :p

[jkm1864]

I sure can't wait for this trend to continue. I think these people deserve the same treatment We have received for years. I guess if these people lost their jobs and had to fight tooth and nail to survive they would mystically become conservatives.

[AndyWhite]

I've got friends that live in Vallejo. I used to work at a paintball field in American Canyon which borders Vallejo. The city of Vallejo had been working on a time consuming project revamping the wilson st area. I guess they won't be able to finish it.

[Danke]

This is why I fear conservatives... you are truly heartless clowns.

No we work for real solutions, not just pushing systemic problems into (and onto others) the future as past politicians (of a "progressive" persuasion) have done.

You "liberals" are the real "heartless clowns." You just haven't studied history enough to realize it.

[James Madison]

This is why I fear conservatives... you are truly heartless clowns.

We conservatives are, dare I say it, more generous and caring than the left-wingers of America could ever hope to be. The most heartless thing I could think of is forcing someone to be dependant on the government for his goods.

[kombayn]

We conservatives are, dare I say it, more generous and caring than the left-wingers of America could ever hope to be. The most heartless thing I could think of is forcing someone to be dependant on the government for his goods.

Alright, but wishing the U.S. to burn to a crisp to bury dead ideological human beings in the ground is preposterous. If America went completely bankrupt, which could be happening right now... We'd all feel it. That's what people need to be worried about.

[WRellim]

This is why I fear conservatives... you are truly heartless clowns.

Ah, but it is just SOO easy to be generous with OTHER people's money... or to promise things you DON'T have.

But than again, isn't that exactly what got Vallejo into this mess in the first place? If the "other people" whose money you promised up and leave... and you end up empty handed when it comes time to actually FULFILL the promises you have made so glibly... what then?

One man tells his daughter she cannot have a pony because they just cannot afford it.

Another man... well he's not so cruel, instead he promise his daughter in January that "next Christmas" she will maybe, just maybe be able to have her own Pony! YAAYY! She'll be happy all year long, will give you lots of hugs and kisses and tell everyone that she has the BESTEST daddy EVAR!

But I wouldn't want to be there to deal with the consequences on Christmas morning when there is NO PONY.

(And, BTW, going without food for the other children for one week a month {gruel is good... Annie and Oliver survived on it just fine!) and instead buying the darn pony would probably be cheaper than the trip to the emergency room to get the scars from her fingernails disinfected... or to have your testicles removed from your abdomen... not to mention the years of alimony and child support payments when your wife divorces you, or the decades of therapy bills for the little girl)!

Who is crueler? The first father or the second?



And that is just a pony... Vallejo is absconding on people's retirements, medical insurance, etc.

[ronpaul.republican]

This is why I fear conservatives... you are truly heartless clowns.

So it's ok in your book to promise huge pensions to workers then declare bankruptcy to avoid paying what you promised them?

Socialists are all heart. ROTFLMAO

Just go eat rat poison, you piece of shit.

[kombayn]

Ah, but it is just SOO easy to be generous with OTHER people's money... or to promise things you DON'T have.

But than again, isn't that exactly what got Vallejo into this mess in the first place? If the "other people" whose money you promised up and leave... and you end up empty handed when it comes time to actually FULFILL the promises you have made so glibly... what then?

One man tells his daughter she cannot have a pony because they just cannot afford it.

Another man... well he's not so cruel, instead he promise his daughter in January that "next Christmas" she will maybe, just maybe be able to have her own Pony! YAAYY! She'll be happy all year long, will give you lots of hugs and kisses and tell everyone that she has the BESTEST daddy EVAR!

But I wouldn't want to be there to deal with the consequences on Christmas morning when there is NO PONY.

(And, BTW, going without food for the other children for one week a month {gruel is good... Annie and Oliver survived on it just fine!) and instead buying the darn pony would probably be cheaper than the trip to the emergency room to get the scars from her fingernails disinfected... or to have your testicles removed from your abdomen... not to mention the years of alimony and child support payments when your wife divorces you, or the decades of therapy bills for the little girl)!

Who is crueler? The first father or the second?



And that is just a pony... Vallejo is absconding on people's retirements, medical insurance, etc.

I believe he refers himself to a Classic Liberal, not the Liberal that has been hijacked the Democratic Party.

Read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism


Disputes over whether modern liberalism is derived from classical liberalism

Whether modern liberalism is founded upon the philosophy of classical liberalism is a subject of dispute. Scholar Leonard Liggio (a self-described classical liberal) holds that modern liberalism does not share the same intellectual foundations as classical liberalism. He says,

"Classical liberalism is liberalism, but the current collectivists have captured that designation in the United States. Happily they did not capture it in Europe, and were glad enough to call themselves socialists. But no one in America wants to be called socialist and admit what they are."

[WRellim]

We conservatives are, dare I say it, more generous and caring than the left-wingers of America could ever hope to be. The most heartless thing I could think of is forcing someone to be dependant on the government for his goods.

Better not be a supporter of the "FAIR Tax" then... because under THAT fiasco, everyone will get checks, every month! YAAAYYYY!


Because it is SO libertarian to make people be dependent upon government payments (which can be "temporarily suspended" by some bureaucrat for whatever reason...):
"Oh, sorry. We've had a bit of a computer mixup, so that's why you haven't gotten your prebate checks in 6 months. Let me check your records... Oh my, it seems there is a 'unpatriotic' flag-lock on your account. The local forum moderator Banned you, apparently you made a 'non-libertarian' comment... Yes I do feel bad that you can't afford to drive to work... Yes, I understand you'll be fired, but there's nothing I can do... Well, if you've already filled out form X-786645/k14 you just have to wait for your appeal date... No sorry, there's nothing more we can do... Yes, that's right you're scheduled to be able to see the appeals panel in June... of 2012. No, I'm sorry, you'll just have to wait until then we can get it all straightened out... Yes, if the panel decides that you're actually innocent, I'm sure eventually your name will be cleared. No normally it only takes 3 to 6 months after the appeals panel approves you, so it's really very efficient. Have a Nice Day."

Yuppers, that's REALLY a libertarian concept at work right there, yessiree.

[ronpaul.republican]

Alright, but wishing the U.S. to burn to a crisp to bury dead ideological human beings in the ground is preposterous.

Wait til you've got a Homeland Security jackboot pinning your neck to the ground.

[James Madison]

Better not be a supporter of the "FAIR Tax" then... because under THAT fiasco, everyone will get checks, every month! YAAAYYYY!


Because it is SO libertarian to make people be dependent upon government payments (which can be "temporarily suspended" by some bureaucrat for whatever reason...):
"Oh, sorry. We've had a bit of a computer mixup, so that's why you haven't gotten your prebate checks in 6 months. Let me check your records... Oh my, it seems there is a 'unpatriotic' flag-lock on your account. The local forum moderator Banned you, apparently you made a 'non-libertarian' comment... Yes I do feel bad that you can't afford to drive to work... Yes, I understand you'll be fired, but there's nothing I can do... Well, if you've already filled out form X-786645/k14 you just have to wait for your appeal date... No sorry, there's nothing more we can do... Yes, that's right you're scheduled to be able to see the appeals panel in June... of 2012. No, I'm sorry, you'll just have to wait until then we can get it all straightened out... Yes, if the panel decides that you're actually innocent, I'm sure eventually your name will be cleared. No normally it only takes 3 to 6 months after the appeals panel approves you, so it's really very efficient. Have a Nice Day."

Yuppers, that's REALLY a libertarian concept at work right there, yessiree.

I don't believe I've ever voiced support for the fair tax on these boards before so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[IPSecure]

So, who gets the assets?

Vallejo Comprehensive Financial Report 2007
http://www.ci.vallejo.ca.us/uploads/688/022008%20-%20Comprehensive%20Annual%20Financial%20Report%20F Y%20ended%20June%2030,%202007%20.pdf

[WRellim]

I don't believe I've ever voiced support for the fair tax on these boards before so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Then I must have been thinking of someone else... Apologies. :o

[James Madison]

Then I must have been thinking of someone else... Apologies. :o

Accepted.;)

[kombayn]

Wait til you've got a Homeland Security jackboot pinning your neck to the ground.

I'll wait with my shotgun right under my bed. The government wants to get the guns out of your hands, it's truly the last thing we have... A militia.

[WRellim]

Accepted.;)

Sorry...

With all of these people's avatars being set to founding father pictures I think I get some of y'all confused. (Then add in there the fact that yongrel keeps switching his around -- I got used to him being Cap'n Mal, then he caught foundling-father-itis, and now he's gone all AlanAlda/WestWing on me, which is doubly confusing 'cause I think of Alda as being hyper-liberal M*A*S*H guy, but then his char on WW was IIRC a paleo-neo-lithi-con or something... makes my head hurt!) :confused:

[James Madison]

Sorry...

With all of these people's avatars being set to founding father pictures I think I get some of y'all confused. (Then add in there the fact that yongrel keeps switching his around -- I got used to him being Cap'n Mal, then he caught foundling-father-itis, and now he's gone all AlanAlda/WestWing on me, which is doubly confusing 'cause I think of Alda as being hyper-liberal M*A*S*H guy, but then his char on WW was IIRC a paleo-neo-lithi-con or something... makes my head hurt!) :confused:

It's cool. Don't sweat it.

[Kade]

Ah, but it is just SOO easy to be generous with OTHER people's money... or to promise things you DON'T have.

But than again, isn't that exactly what got Vallejo into this mess in the first place? If the "other people" whose money you promised up and leave... and you end up empty handed when it comes time to actually FULFILL the promises you have made so glibly... what then?

One man tells his daughter she cannot have a pony because they just cannot afford it.

Another man... well he's not so cruel, instead he promise his daughter in January that "next Christmas" she will maybe, just maybe be able to have her own Pony! YAAYY! She'll be happy all year long, will give you lots of hugs and kisses and tell everyone that she has the BESTEST daddy EVAR!

But I wouldn't want to be there to deal with the consequences on Christmas morning when there is NO PONY.

(And, BTW, going without food for the other children for one week a month {gruel is good... Annie and Oliver survived on it just fine!) and instead buying the darn pony would probably be cheaper than the trip to the emergency room to get the scars from her fingernails disinfected... or to have your testicles removed from your abdomen... not to mention the years of alimony and child support payments when your wife divorces you, or the decades of therapy bills for the little girl)!

Who is crueler? The first father or the second?



And that is just a pony... Vallejo is absconding on people's retirements, medical insurance, etc.

So generous with other people's money?

Did you invent the computer that you are typing on?
Did you discover the oil you use to drive?
Did you create the process for better farming techniques?


The money you make is worthless compared to the value of the things that you use everyday, even if you "bought" those things, you did not PAY for their creation. The things I mentioned were collaborative efforts, as was most things, even the philosophical ideas behind the insane implications you make.

I never advocate the government taking what is not their's... but I can point out ruthless absurdity when I see it.

[SLSteven]

Did you invent the computer that you are typing on?
Did you discover the oil you use to drive?
Did you create the process for better farming techniques?



We all benefit from division of labor when the free markets are allowed to work.

[Primbs]

The whole state of California and many counties and cities might be headed for the same fate.

Doesn't California have a fifteen billion dollar deficit with crashing real estate property values?

Are they just planning to borrow to get out of the mess?

[LiveFree79]

Funny how you guys criticize police officers for making six figures for putting their life on the line yet have no problem allowing mortgage brokers with high school diplomas and real estate agents making millions?

Kind of ironic that the wealtiest state in country, relatively speaking as far as private wealth, is bankrupt. California's problems are multifaceted, it has nothing to do with a free market or lack thereof. Illegal immigrants is a huge problem as they are eating up social services and bankrupting communities, hospitals etc. Orange County went bankrupt years ago because of a single person's bad investment decisions. And it's always been one of the wealthiest counties in the country.

[Danke]

Funny how you guys criticize police officers for making six figures for putting their life on the line yet have no problem allowing mortgage brokers with high school diplomas and real estate agents making millions?




I don't have a problem with police making six figures. But retiring at 50 and making 90% of that indexed yearly with free health care for the rest of their life is way too excessive a benefit for taxpayers to be burdened with.


Whatever someone makes in the private sector is of little concern of mine. They don't come to my house and threaten physical violence if I don't pay them.

[AutoDas]

Funny how you guys criticize police officers for making six figures for putting their life on the line yet have no problem allowing mortgage brokers with high school diplomas and real estate agents making millions?

Red herring.


Kind of ironic that the wealtiest state in country, relatively speaking as far as private wealth, is bankrupt. California's problems are multifaceted, it has nothing to do with a free market or lack thereof. Illegal immigrants is a huge problem as they are eating up social services and bankrupting communities, hospitals etc. Orange County went bankrupt years ago because of a single person's bad investment decisions. And it's always been one of the wealthiest counties in the country.

The cause is not immigration, without socialism to hand out free checks, healthcare, and education then they would not have gone bankrupt.

[LiveFree79]

Red herring.



The cause is not immigration, without socialism to hand out free checks, healthcare, and education then they would not have gone bankrupt.

How is that a red herring? I just don't understand why people would complain about police officers making the money they do. Because their tax dollars pay them?

I didn't say THE cause is immigration. I said it's part of a multifaceted set of problems. I agree California spends way too much on social programs. But illegal immigrants will keep coming as long as the border is wide open. If you want people to die in the streets from starvation and povery that's fine with me. But you're still going to have to clean up their carcasses and with several million strong it's going to be a dirty job.

[WRellim]

So generous with other people's money?

Yes... you are missing the point. It is very easy for elected "OFFICIALS" to be GENEROUS with TAXPAYERS money, which is NOT THEIRS TO GIVE (http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm) -- certainly not in such a fiscally irresponsible and negligent manner as to cause the city to go bankrupt.




Did you invent the computer that you are typing on?
Did you discover the oil you use to drive?
Did you create the process for better farming techniques?


This is a complete non-sequitor, and makes no sense even on its own.

Did you invent the computer that you are typing on?
The computer that I am typing on was purchased in a fair exchange at the going rate of the free market. It was mainly so inexpensive because the manufacturer decided they would make more money by selling a large volume at a cheaper price than making a small number at an exorbitant price.

Did you discover the oil you use to drive?
The oil was likewise purchased on the market. (You MAY be entitled to argue that tax money was taken by force from myself (and forefathers) to pay for military {and clandestine} adventures in order remove, erect and/or support a variety of tyrannical governments composed of a small elite who were then bribed or coerced to make deals with cartels to extract the oil at a ridiculously low price, ship it across the ocean and sucker me into buying it... and I would probably agree.)

But this has nothing to do with a city promising a cornucopia of "FUTURE goodies" in negotiations with labor unions in order to avoid giving those same unions a smaller CURRENT increase in wages, and then raising taxes or lowering OTHER costs in a responsible manner to compensate and balance the books.

Did you create the process for better farming techniques?
No, but Mssrs. John Deere, Jerome Increase Case, and Cyrus McCormick (aka great great great grandpa on pop's side) -- are all dead now, and can no longer be paid in any meaningful sense of the word (we can put flowers on the graves I suppose, or give them credit as I have just done, but its hard to compensate dead people.) Their descendants were NOT any more involved in the creation of those inventions than I was (nor you were) -- and despite the fact that they left "corporations" around... exactly how long should THEY be compensated for the inventions of men now long dead?

And shouldn't they pay the guy who invented the WHEEL... I mean surely THAT was a significant invention that was incorporated in the tractors, planters, harvesters, etc...

Or how about the guy who invented the original plow (dead now for thousands of years)... because certainly great innovation though it was, John Deere's self-scouring plow was merely a DERIVATIVE of the original design. Worthy of an ADDITIONAL patent, but not without compensating the original inventor.

So in the theater of the "absurd," your argument is perhaps the KING of absurdities. And again, this has NOTHING to do with a city promising a cornucopia of "FUTURE goodies" in negotiations with labor unions in order to avoid giving those same unions a smaller CURRENT increase in wages, and then raising taxes or lowering OTHER costs in a responsible manner to compensate and balance the books.


The money you make is worthless compared to the value of the things that you use everyday, even if you "bought" those things, you did not PAY for their creation. The things I mentioned were collaborative efforts, as was most things, even the philosophical ideas behind the insane implications you make.

I never advocate the government taking what is not their's... but I can point out ruthless absurdity when I see it.

So, we all stand upon the shoulders of preceding generations. And "inventions" are VIRTUALLY (the main exception being the "Wright Brothers") never the result of collaborative efforts (egads have you never been part of a "committee" -- All committees consist of one member does the work, another who takes notes about the meetings, and the rest of the members wait around to take the credit if it turns out to be successful, or to point the fingers of blame if it does not.)

What does that have to do with the price of Tea in China? :)


Answer: As far as the Vallejo declaring bankruptcy, I could not possibly care less what tea costs... because it has NOTHING to do with a city promising a cornucopia of "FUTURE goodies" in negotiations with labor unions in order to avoid giving those same unions a smaller CURRENT increase in wages, and then raising taxes or lowering OTHER costs in a responsible manner to compensate and balance the books.

[AutoDas]

How is that a red herring? I just don't understand why people would complain about police officers making the money they do. Because their tax dollars pay them?

uh you answered your own question lawl


I didn't say THE cause is immigration. I said it's part of a multifaceted set of problems. I agree California spends way too much on social programs. But illegal immigrants will keep coming as long as the border is wide open. If you want people to die in the streets from starvation and povery that's fine with me. But you're still going to have to clean up their carcasses and with several million strong it's going to be a dirty job.

Let's seal off the border, never mind that illegal immigration is a result of restricted markets. If you want foreigners to die of starvation because they couldn't get into America then that's fine.

[LiveFree79]

uh you answered your own question lawl



Let's seal off the border, never mind that illegal immigration is a result of restricted markets. If you want foreigners to die of starvation because they couldn't get into America then that's fine.

So we should turn our police force into a blackwater type of operation? How do you suggest we pay our police officers? Through charity?

Seal off the border? Do you know how many American companies would go belly up due to lack of cheap labor. Plus how do you think CIA would fund all their covert operations if drug cartels didn't have easy access to the American consumer? Big business is as much responsible for open borders as is the government because our government is controlled by big business.

[Kade]

Yes... you are missing the point. It is very easy for elected "OFFICIALS" to be GENEROUS with TAXPAYERS money, which is NOT THEIRS TO GIVE (http://www.house.gov/paul/nytg.htm) -- certainly not in such a fiscally irresponsible and negligent manner as to cause the city to go bankrupt.




This is a complete non-sequitor, and makes no sense even on its own.

Did you invent the computer that you are typing on?
The computer that I am typing on was purchased in a fair exchange at the going rate of the free market. It was mainly so inexpensive because the manufacturer decided they would make more money by selling a large volume at a cheaper price than making a small number at an exorbitant price.

Did you discover the oil you use to drive?
The oil was likewise purchased on the market. (You MAY be entitled to argue that tax money was taken by force from myself (and forefathers) to pay for military {and clandestine} adventures in order remove, erect and/or support a variety of tyrannical governments composed of a small elite who were then bribed or coerced to make deals with cartels to extract the oil at a ridiculously low price, ship it across the ocean and sucker me into buying it... and I would probably agree.)

But this has nothing to do with a city promising a cornucopia of "FUTURE goodies" in negotiations with labor unions in order to avoid giving those same unions a smaller CURRENT increase in wages, and then raising taxes or lowering OTHER costs in a responsible manner to compensate and balance the books.

Did you create the process for better farming techniques?
No, but Mssrs. John Deere, Jerome Increase Case, and Cyrus McCormick (aka great great great grandpa on pop's side) -- are all dead now, and can no longer be paid in any meaningful sense of the word (we can put flowers on the graves I suppose, or give them credit as I have just done, but its hard to compensate dead people.) Their descendants were NOT any more involved in the creation of those inventions than I was (nor you were) -- and despite the fact that they left "corporations" around... exactly how long should THEY be compensated for the inventions of men now long dead?

And shouldn't they pay the guy who invented the WHEEL... I mean surely THAT was a significant invention that was incorporated in the tractors, planters, harvesters, etc...

Or how about the guy who invented the original plow (dead now for thousands of years)... because certainly great innovation though it was, John Deere's self-scouring plow was merely a DERIVATIVE of the original design. Worthy of an ADDITIONAL patent, but not without compensating the original inventor.

So in the theater of the "absurd," your argument is perhaps the KING of absurdities. And again, this has NOTHING to do with a city promising a cornucopia of "FUTURE goodies" in negotiations with labor unions in order to avoid giving those same unions a smaller CURRENT increase in wages, and then raising taxes or lowering OTHER costs in a responsible manner to compensate and balance the books.



So, we all stand upon the shoulders of preceding generations. And "inventions" are VIRTUALLY (the main exception being the "Wright Brothers") never the result of collaborative efforts (egads have you never been part of a "committee" -- All committees consist of one member does the work, another who takes notes about the meetings, and the rest of the members wait around to take the credit if it turns out to be successful, or to point the fingers of blame if it does not.)

What does that have to do with the price of Tea in China? :)


Answer: As far as the Vallejo declaring bankruptcy, I could not possibly care less what tea costs... because it has NOTHING to do with a city promising a cornucopia of "FUTURE goodies" in negotiations with labor unions in order to avoid giving those same unions a smaller CURRENT increase in wages, and then raising taxes or lowering OTHER costs in a responsible manner to compensate and balance the books.


I really think you missed my point, because you seemed to respond negatively while agreeing with my central point... :rolleyes:

[mediahasyou]

All you socialists can go back to the USSR...OH WAIT?! IT'S NOT THERE! ahahah

[Kade]

All you socialists can go back to the USSR...OH WAIT?! IT'S NOT THERE! ahahah

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=141335

[AutoDas]

So we should turn our police force into a blackwater type of operation? How do you suggest we pay our police officers? Through charity?

Seal off the border? Do you know how many American companies would go belly up due to lack of cheap labor. Plus how do you think CIA would fund all their covert operations if drug cartels didn't have easy access to the American consumer? Big business is as much responsible for open borders as is the government because our government is controlled by big business.

???