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yongrel
05-27-2008, 11:06 AM
Religion is a product of evolution, software suggests
11:56 27 May 2008
NewScientist.com news service
Ewen Callaway
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13983-religion-is-a-product-of-evolution-software-suggests.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news5_head_dn13983

God may work in mysterious ways, but a simple computer program may explain how religion evolved

By distilling religious belief into a genetic predisposition to pass along unverifiable information, the program predicts that religion will flourish. However, religion only takes hold if non-believers help believers out – perhaps because they are impressed by their devotion.

"If a person is willing to sacrifice for an abstract god then people feel like they are willing to sacrifice for the community," says James Dow, an evolutionary anthropologist at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan, US, who wrote the program – called Evogod (download the code here).

Dow is by no means the first scientist to take a stab at explaining how religion emerged. Theories on the evolution of religion tend toward two camps. One argues that religion is a mental artefact, co-opted from brain functions that evolved for other tasks.

Aiding the people
Another contends that religion benefited our ancestors. Rather than being a by-product of other brain functions, it is an adaptation in its own right. In this explanation, natural selection slowly purged human populations of the non-religious.

"Sometime between 100,000 years ago to the point where writing was invented, maybe about 7000 BC, we begin to have records of people's supernatural beliefs," Dow says.

To determine if it was possible for religion to emerge as an adaptation, Dow wrote a simple computer program that focuses on the evolutionary benefits people receive from their interactions with one another.

"What people are adapting to is other people," he says.

Religious attraction
To simplify matters, Dow picked a defining trait of religion: the desire to proclaim religious information to others, such as a belief in the afterlife. He assumed that this trait was genetic.

The model assumes, in other words, that a small number of people have a genetic predisposition to communicate unverifiable information to others. They passed on that trait to their children, but they also interacted with people who didn't spread unreal information.

The model looks at the reproductive success of the two sorts of people – those who pass on real information, and those who pass on unreal information.

Under most scenarios, "believers in the unreal" went extinct. But when Dow included the assumption that non-believers would be attracted to religious people because of some clear, but arbitrary, signal, religion flourished.

"Somehow the communicators of unreal information are attracting others to communicate real information to them," Dow says, speculating that perhaps the non-believers are touched by the faith of the religious.

Ancient needs
Richard Sosis, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Connecticut in Storrs, US, says the model adds a new dimension to the debate over how religion could have evolved, which has previously relied on verbal arguments and speculation. But "these are baby steps", he cautions.

Sosis previously found that in some populations – kibbutzim in Israel, for instance – more religious people receive more assistance from others than the less faithful. But he notes that the forces that maintain religion in modern humans could be very different from those that promoted its emergence, thousands of years ago.

Palaeolithic humans were probably far more reliant than modern humans on the community they were born into, Sosis says. "[Now] you can be a Lutheran one week and decide the following week you are going to become a Buddhist."

*************************************

When I stumbled across this article, it struck me as extremely interesting. Whaddy'all think?

Let's try to avoid a flame war here, shall we?

dirknb@hotmail.com
05-27-2008, 11:18 AM
I believe religion is a product of those who wish to rule.

amy31416
05-27-2008, 11:22 AM
I also find it very interesting, somewhat different that what I thought about religion being a product of evolution.

I wouldn't have thought that "believers in the unreal" would go extinct, but I can definitely see that "non-believers are touched by the faith of the faith of the religious."


"Somehow the communicators of unreal information are attracting others to communicate real information to them,"

Also a very intriguing statement.

Given the simplicity of a computer program relative to the complexity involved in society, I'd say that it may give some insight into some of the conflicts of religious vs. non-religious, certainly not close to the whole picture though.

That said, I'd like to try the program out.

Danke
05-27-2008, 11:24 AM
:rolleyes:

Truth Warrior
05-27-2008, 11:28 AM
In many ways animals and plants are superior and smarter than us. No church! No state!

ANARCHY! :eek:

OptionsTrader
05-27-2008, 11:31 AM
I believe religion is a product of those who wish to rule.

+1

Timothy
05-27-2008, 11:49 AM
the desire to proclaim religious information to others, such as a belief in the afterlife. He assumed that this trait was genetic.

Err... religious information such as a belief in the afterlife...

Ooooookaaaaaay. Now, it is evident that this particular information is not genetically encoded, to assume that would be like saying that it is genetically encoded to lecture people about Ayn Rand. I mean, even before you'd actually read her. Yuck... So, what exactly should be genetically encoded? The tendency to become a religious con man? That would be easier to believe. All you needed would be an urge to test other peoples' beliefs and boy, I've observed that in many a lying kid! So, yes, since nobody can know about God and stuff, this is the ultimate haven/heaven for this kind of person.

Whether it's the source of religion though... you know, there are also other things like even animals becoming superstitious, if they don't understand their environment. In such a scenario they display all kind of odd behavior like standing on one leg (parrots) in the hope that they would get more likely something to eat then and such (bizarre, isn't it?)

Finally, since the human being can conceive of existence as such, it tries to somehow make sense of its own and the world's etc.

ryanmkeisling
05-27-2008, 11:58 AM
:D:D:cool:

Truth Warrior
05-27-2008, 12:31 PM
Maybe people are genetically encoded to be "sheeple". Cursed forever to constantly seek out "shepherds". You know, kind of a subservient, slave mentality species. :p

TurtleBurger
05-27-2008, 12:49 PM
Is there any more to evolutionary scientific "research" than inventing scenarios like this? Anyone can invent a scenario to support any theory.

Truth Warrior
05-27-2008, 01:00 PM
Invented scenarios are a penny per truckload. Be my guest. Take your pick.

Enjoy! :D

rancher89
05-27-2008, 01:05 PM
I've always felt (well ever since I started questioning things) that religion was developed to help explain the unexplainable. That comforted the people, so it was good.

But then, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutly. I wonder when the first shaman misused his power.....

The program is interesting to say the least.

Truth Warrior
05-27-2008, 01:07 PM
I've always felt (well ever since I started questioning things) that religion was developed to help explain the unexplainable. That comforted the people, so it was good.

But then, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutly. I wonder when the first shaman misused his power.....

The program is interesting to say the least.
as soon as he could. :D

idiom
05-27-2008, 10:23 PM
So, atheism is genetic defect?

Can we cure atheism using Stem cells?

Truth Warrior
05-28-2008, 02:47 AM
So, atheism is genetic defect?

Can we cure atheism using Stem cells?
Nope, the atheists just choose replacement IDOLS to worship. The state, science, evil, evolution, UN, lefty economics, "society", collectives, "cults", AGW, environment, New Age, Marx, "Humanism", Hegel, Darwin, Democrats, the masses, death, etc., etc., etc. :p ;) < gag >

AutoDas
05-28-2008, 10:57 PM
Generalize much?

Minestra di pomodoro
05-29-2008, 02:46 AM
Generalize much?

No, Christians just can't understand that atheism means no gods. Not humans-as-gods, monkeys-as-gods or Darwin-as-god. No gods. None, zilch, nada.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 05:32 AM
No, Christians just can't understand that atheism means no gods. Not humans-as-gods, monkeys-as-gods or Darwin-as-god. No gods. None, zilch, nada.

Not speaking for Christians, since I am not one. Atheism is without GOD.

I've spoken extensively with many atheists over the years, and almost universally they all WORSHIP at the altar of at least one of my previously listed IDOLS examples. And usually more than one of them.

idiom
05-29-2008, 05:37 AM
Its okay, most Christians worship at dodgy idols too. Some of them even spend inordinate amounts of time on political forums.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 05:46 AM
Its okay, most Christians worship at dodgy idols too. Some of them even spend inordinate amounts of time on political forums.
So perhaps the larger question is, where does the **** sapiens species get it's propensity, tendency, "instinct?", to worship?

The chimps have neither "church" nor "state". :rolleyes:

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 06:06 AM
It is natural that human-kind would seek answers to the un-known.

Especially when the elements were harsh.

Now-a-days, I rely on History and Science, to formulate my opinions.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 06:19 AM
Attempting to prevent and head off a mere semantic dispute: :rolleyes:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worship
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idols

JosephTheLibertarian
05-29-2008, 06:19 AM
I'm an atheist that worships nothing. I don't even follow humanism or any of that.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 06:21 AM
I'm an atheist that worships nothing. I don't even follow humanism or any of that.
Are you a statist?

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 06:28 AM
Are you a statist?

What is your Hypothesis?

Why would a atheist be a statist?

Help me draw a conclusion.

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 06:51 AM
I'm an atheist that worships nothing. I don't even follow humanism or any of that.

Atheists are human to.:)

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 06:53 AM
And..

Love puppies.

dirknb@hotmail.com
05-29-2008, 06:55 AM
Religion was created the first time someone in a tribe asked out loud about the stars or the meaning of life or something like that. Someone else who wanted to feel important took a guess at it and became known as the wise one. The first thing that happened after that is it went to his head and he began to manipulate the rest of the tribe to his advantage.

acptulsa
05-29-2008, 07:02 AM
Another contends that religion benefited our ancestors. Rather than being a by-product of other brain functions, it is an adaptation in its own right. In this explanation, natural selection slowly purged human populations of the non-religious.

Sometimes not so slowly...

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Controversy.files/witch%20burning.jpg

In my opinion it's just the organized part that gives religion a bad name. Just like heavy metal listeners are likely to cause more problems when they're all together at a concert, you get a few devout people together eating moldy bread and you've got a situation. God knows that damned pope has always been a trouble maker.

Oh, you said no flames, didn't you yongrel? Sorry...

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 07:05 AM
Sometimes not so slowly...

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Controversy.files/witch%20burning.jpg

In my opinion it's just the organized part that gives religion a bad name. Just like heavy metal listeners are likely to cause more problems when they're all together at a concert, you get a few devout people together eating moldy bread and you've got a situation. God knows that damned pope has always been a trouble maker.

Oh, you said no flames, didn't you yongrel? Sorry...

A good cleansing is invaluable.

How about the Inquisition?

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 07:06 AM
What is your Hypothesis?

Why would a atheist be a statist?

Help me draw a conclusion.

Communists are most usually atheists. Correct? "opiate of the masses" and all that.

Communists "worship" the "state", party and various, assorted "personality" cults. Marx, Lenin. Stalin. Mao, Minh, Kim, Castro, Che, etc., etc. etc. as Gods.

So far, so good? :)

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 07:14 AM
Communists are usually atheists. Correct? "opiate of the masses" and all that.

Communists "worship" the "state", party and various, assorted "personality" cults. Marx, Lenin. Stalin. Mao, Minh, Kim, Castro, Che, etc., etc. etc. as Gods.

So far, so good? :)

Righty - ohhh

I'm a gay, communist , terrorist.

But worse... I'm an atheist.:eek:

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 07:17 AM
I'm a Capitalist. Way beyond your dreams probably.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 07:30 AM
I'm a Capitalist. Way beyond your dreams probably.
Did I claim that you were otherwise? Me too, BTW. And I very seriously doubt THAT.

This conversation will go NO WHERE if you refuse to answer the questions. YOU asked ME for an hypothesis, and I am building it FOR YOU.

If you've NOW changed your mind, that's perfectly OK with me. :p

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 07:48 AM
Did I claim that you were otherwise? Me too, BTW. And I very seriously doubt THAT.

This conversation will go NO WHERE if you refuse to answer the questions. YOU asked ME for an hypothesis, and I am building it FOR YOU.

If you've NOW changed your mind, that's perfectly OK with me. :p

Allright, but being independently minded, I'll put my 2 cents worth in.

Unless you're running out of steam.

But that's O.K. ;)

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 09:05 AM
Allright, but being independently minded, I'll put my 2 cents worth in.

Unless you're running out of steam.

But that's O.K. ;)
NOT running out of steam, just patience and BULLSHIT tolerance. :p

Your frequent "cheap shot" injection posts, prematurely jumping to ERRONEOUS "cutesy ( 2 cents worth in )" conclusions, mindless bogus petty "smokescreen" distractions, petty false accusations, etc. is NOT helpful in ANY WAY.

Serious conversation or just more extraneous BULLSHIT! Your choice! You can have one OR the other, but not BOTH! Otherwise you're just wasting both of our times, and I'm, quite frankly, just not that interested. < YAWN! >

Yep, you're the standard issue "run of the mill "atheist, all right. :rolleyes:

Let me know your decision, please. :)

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 09:16 AM
NOT running out of steam, just patience and BULLSHIT tolerance.

Your frequent "cheap shot" injection posts, prematurely jumping to ERRONEOUS "cutesy ( 2 cents worth in )" conclusions, mindless bogus petty "smokescreen" distractions, petty false accusations, etc. is NOT helpful in ANY WAY.

Serious conversation or just more extraneous BULLSHIT! Your choice! You can have one OR the other, but not BOTH! Otherwise you're just wasting both of our times, and I'm, quite frankly, just not that interested. < YAWN! >

Yep, you're a standard atheist, all right.

Let me know your decision, please. :)

If I'm a standard atheist, who the fuck are you?

Don't insult me , otherwise you will be lumped with the cross signing guilt monsters.

I'll have your women!

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 09:23 AM
If I'm a standard atheist, who the fuck are you?

Don't insult me , otherwise you will be lumped with the cross signing guilt monsters.

I'll have your women!
Predictable answer type. Noted and accepted.

Bye!

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 09:32 AM
Predictable answer type. Noted and accepted.

Bye!
C'mon mate,

We are not so different.

Stop being a product of your environment.

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 09:49 AM
Truth Warrior,

You are a good representative for your side.

Unlike others.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 09:53 AM
Truth Warrior,

You are a good representative for your side.

Unlike others.

Thank you.

AutoDas
05-29-2008, 03:32 PM
Your righteous religious tune is what makes atheists turn to the state because with a government to intervene on their behalf instead of your invisible friend there is an immediate result no matter how traumatic it may be.

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 03:40 PM
Your righteous religious tune is what makes atheists turn to the state because with a government to intervene on their behalf instead of your invisible friend there is an immediate result no matter how traumatic it may be.
Any old lame bogus excuse will do.

How many theists have you voted for in your life?

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 03:46 PM
Any old lame bogus excuse will do.

How many theists have you voted for in your life?

Most atheists are not opposed to religion.

We would like to keep religion and politics separate.

Any lessons to be learn't there Truth Warrior?

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 04:03 PM
Most atheists are not opposed to religion.

We would like to keep religion and politics separate.

Any lessons to be learn't there Truth Warrior?

NOT my experience here on the RPF.

NOT my experience here on the RPF.

Nope, give me a clue.

How many theists have you voted for in your life?

BTW, I endorse neither Church nor State, for many of the same reasons.

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 04:15 PM
[quote=Truth Warrior;1484103]NOT my experience here on the RPF.

NOT my experience here on the RPF.

Nope, give me a clue.

How many theists have you voted for in your life?

BTW, I endorse neither Church nor State, for many of the same reasons.[/quotYou must be running out of puff.

Maybe your conscience is catching up with you. :o

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 04:20 PM
[quote=Truth Warrior;1484103]NOT my experience here on the RPF.

NOT my experience here on the RPF.

Nope, give me a clue.

How many theists have you voted for in your life?

BTW, I endorse neither Church nor State, for many of the same reasons.[/quotYou must be running out of puff.

Maybe your conscience is catching up with you. :o

My conscience and I get along just great. once I finally got my shit together. :D

Ozwest
05-29-2008, 04:37 PM
[quote=Ozwest;1484121]

My conscience and I get along just great. once I finally got my shit together. :D
I've barely got my shit together. I'd guess that you are in the "pinching the loaf" stage. :D

Truth Warrior
05-29-2008, 05:15 PM
[quote=Truth Warrior;1484131]
I've barely got my shit together. I'd guess that you are in the "pinching the loaf" stage. :Dha < sigh > :rolleyes:

Atheist73
06-05-2008, 09:18 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/3kGD14tDxa4&hl=en

This is the type of stuff that bothers most non-religious libertarians IMO...

Theocrat
06-05-2008, 09:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/3kGD14tDxa4&hl=en

This is the type of stuff that bothers most non-religious libertarians IMO...

Hey, check out this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=140222), while you're at it.

punkskarockemo
06-05-2008, 07:51 PM
Personally i take the belief that i have no idea if their is or isn't a higher power, Ive gone to catholic school all, but next year i wont be at college. Personally i think religion is for the most part made up, i mean look at the old test meant Abraham beings 100s of years old yeah right, why believe some story written down years after it happened, its a fable someone made it up to explain life.