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Bradley in DC
05-22-2008, 05:58 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121141302518112431.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

Does the Libertarian Party Matter?
By BRUCE BARTLETT
May 22, 2008

Ron Paul's unexpected success raising money and gaining votes in the Republican primaries – running on an explicitly libertarian platform – has made the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination something worth vying for this year.

Although Rep. Paul could probably have had the nomination for the asking, he's running instead for re-election in his Texas district. Former Republican Rep. Bob Barr of Georgia and former Democratic Sen. Mike Gravel of Alaska are among those actively seeking the nomination at the LP convention, which begins today in Denver.

The fact that such well-known, former establishment figures would seek a fringe party's presidential nomination demonstrates to many libertarians that their party has come of age. It's also created fear in Republican ranks that a viable LP candidate could throw a close election to the Democrats.

Libertarians respond that their message of an immediate end to the Iraq war, legalization of drugs, and opposition to the Bush administration's undermining of civil liberties appeals as much to Democrats as their advocacy of free-market economics appeals to Republicans.

Nevertheless, Republicans view Libertarian votes as coming out of their total. They have, for example, blamed U.S. Senate losses in Nevada in 1998, Washington in 2000, and Montana in 2006 on LP candidates.

Whoever gains the LP nomination can expect strenuous attacks from the GOP, and such attacks are already surfacing on conservative Web sites. But it is not clear that a strong Libertarian candidate necessarily hurts the Republican Party as a whole.

Polls have shown a sharp erosion in support for the GOP over the last four years; voters identifying themselves as Republicans have fallen from 33% to 27%, according to Pew Research. This is largely due to declining support for George W. Bush's policies among Republicans. Only 60% of them now approve of his performance, according to Gallup. Gallup research also shows that 10% of Republicans now believe John McCain's close association with Mr. Bush makes them less likely to vote for him in November.

It's hard to know whether these anti-Bush, anti-McCain Republicans will vote for the Democrat this fall, hold their noses and vote for Sen. McCain, or just stay home on Election Day. While the apparent Democratic nominee, Barack Obama, has genuine support among a few conservatives – a friend of mine calls herself an "Obamacon" – the stay-at-home option would seem to be more likely.

To the extent that the Libertarian Party candidate gives such voters someone to vote for at the top of the ticket, they may still vote Republican for Congress and other offices. Thus while a strong LP candidate may hurt Mr. McCain, he may nevertheless aid Republicans in getting sympathetic voters to the polls who would otherwise not vote at all.

Although this may turn out to be a banner year for the Libertarian Party, the LP is not a real alternative to the Republicans and Democrats. Because of the Electoral College, restrictions on ballot access and onerous campaign finance laws, third parties simply aren't viable for actually electing candidates. Nor do they pull the major parties toward their position: Ron Paul's success did not encourage other Republican presidential candidates to even pay lip service to his ideas.

I believe that libertarian ideas would be better promoted by an interest group such as the National Rifle Association than through the Libertarian Party. Such a group could use the limited resources available for libertarian ideas far more effectively by establishing a political action committee, lobbying and advertising than by a political party running futile campaigns for public office. Nevertheless, the Libertarian Party may be an interesting force this year.

Mr. Bartlett worked on Ron Paul's congressional staff in 1976. He later worked for former Rep. Jack Kemp, and in the Reagan White House.

phree
05-22-2008, 06:05 AM
Ron Paul's success did not encourage other Republican presidential candidates to even pay lip service to his ideas.

That's the only part that doesn't seem accurate to me.

Bradley in DC
05-22-2008, 06:13 AM
That's the only part that doesn't seem accurate to me.

Explain? Which candidates did you see mouthing what part of Dr. Paul's platform?

Rhys
05-22-2008, 06:13 AM
+ He worked for my friend, Jack Kemp.

speciallyblend
05-22-2008, 06:37 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121141302518112431.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

Does the Libertarian Party Matter?
By BRUCE BARTLETT
May 22, 2008

Ron Paul's unexpected success raising money and gaining votes in the Republican primaries – running on an explicitly libertarian platform – has made the Libertarian Party's presidential nomination something worth vying for this year.

Although Rep. Paul could probably have had the nomination for the asking, he's running instead for re-election in his Texas district. Former Republican Rep. Bob Barr of Georgia and former Democratic Sen. Mike Gravel of Alaska are among those actively seeking the nomination at the LP convention, which begins today in Denver.

The fact that such well-known, former establishment figures would seek a fringe party's presidential nomination demonstrates to many libertarians that their party has come of age. It's also created fear in Republican ranks that a viable LP candidate could throw a close election to the Democrats.

Libertarians respond that their message of an immediate end to the Iraq war, legalization of drugs, and opposition to the Bush administration's undermining of civil liberties appeals as much to Democrats as their advocacy of free-market economics appeals to Republicans.

Nevertheless, Republicans view Libertarian votes as coming out of their total. They have, for example, blamed U.S. Senate losses in Nevada in 1998, Washington in 2000, and Montana in 2006 on LP candidates.

Whoever gains the LP nomination can expect strenuous attacks from the GOP, and such attacks are already surfacing on conservative Web sites. But it is not clear that a strong Libertarian candidate necessarily hurts the Republican Party as a whole.

Polls have shown a sharp erosion in support for the GOP over the last four years; voters identifying themselves as Republicans have fallen from 33% to 27%, according to Pew Research. This is largely due to declining support for George W. Bush's policies among Republicans. Only 60% of them now approve of his performance, according to Gallup. Gallup research also shows that 10% of Republicans now believe John McCain's close association with Mr. Bush makes them less likely to vote for him in November.

It's hard to know whether these anti-Bush, anti-McCain Republicans will vote for the Democrat this fall, hold their noses and vote for Sen. McCain, or just stay home on Election Day. While the apparent Democratic nominee, Barack Obama, has genuine support among a few conservatives – a friend of mine calls herself an "Obamacon" – the stay-at-home option would seem to be more likely.

To the extent that the Libertarian Party candidate gives such voters someone to vote for at the top of the ticket, they may still vote Republican for Congress and other offices. Thus while a strong LP candidate may hurt Mr. McCain, he may nevertheless aid Republicans in getting sympathetic voters to the polls who would otherwise not vote at all.

Although this may turn out to be a banner year for the Libertarian Party, the LP is not a real alternative to the Republicans and Democrats. Because of the Electoral College, restrictions on ballot access and onerous campaign finance laws, third parties simply aren't viable for actually electing candidates. Nor do they pull the major parties toward their position: Ron Paul's success did not encourage other Republican presidential candidates to even pay lip service to his ideas.

I believe that libertarian ideas would be better promoted by an interest group such as the National Rifle Association than through the Libertarian Party. Such a group could use the limited resources available for libertarian ideas far more effectively by establishing a political action committee, lobbying and advertising than by a political party running futile campaigns for public office. Nevertheless, the Libertarian Party may be an interesting force this year.

Mr. Bartlett worked on Ron Paul's congressional staff in 1976. He later worked for former Rep. Jack Kemp, and in the Reagan White House.

welll i guess the gop is really dying. This article sounds like a lp hit piece. The gop is desperate,even ron paul republicans are sucking up to the gop. i will treat the gop like they treated Ron Paul. The gop gets what is coming to them. I'd rather vote for a lp conservative(or anyone but mccain/obama or hillary) ,then waste it on a neo-con republican. Sounds like this writer is seeking a good position within the republican party , a crap article full of BULLSHIT GOP PROPAGANDA.

speciallyblend
05-22-2008, 06:41 AM
+ He worked for my friend, Jack Kemp.

i thought jack kemp was a neo-con gop shill,sounds like one and acts like one.... so far the gop has shown to me they are a bunch of neo-con ass kissers, minus most of the ron paul supporters...

LibertyEagle
05-22-2008, 06:48 AM
i thought jack kemp was a neo-con gop shill,sounds like one and acts like one....

+1

And what's this deal about looking to the NRA to further the cause? Give me a break. The NRA sold us out long ago. :rolleyes:

Bartlett is sounding a bit to me like Dondero-lite.

Note: This article is all twisted, IMO. First of all, Ron Paul did not run as a Libertarian, but as a Republican. So why he keeps talking about the Libertarian party on one hand and Ron Paul on the other, is very weird. I do personally agree with him that 3rd parties are probably not the answer, because of the way the political machinery is setup. So what? All that means is we continue with the plan to kick the big government socialist encroachers out of OUR Republican party and bring it back to true conservatism. Yup, that's the ticket, imo. :)

Bradley in DC
05-22-2008, 07:22 AM
+1

And what's this deal about looking to the NRA to further the cause? Give me a break. The NRA sold us out long ago. :rolleyes:

Bartlett is sounding a bit to me like Dondero-lite.

Note: This article is all twisted, IMO. First of all, Ron Paul did not run as a Libertarian, but as a Republican.

Jack Kemp USED to be good, on the whole, back in the day (pushing tax cuts, gold standard, etc.) before he sold out.

NRA, he was just giving an example.

Bartlett is no Dondero by any measure.

Dr. Paul DID run as a Libertarian in 1988.

Bradley in DC
05-22-2008, 07:26 AM
welll i guess the gop is really dying. This article sounds like a lp hit piece.

For the record, I'm not promoting his view here, but I do respect him.

If Barr gets the LP nomination, I'll vote for him, but definitely not McCain. In fact, if it isn't Barr, I'll probably vote for Nader again (depending on my choices) as the next best way to promote the third party option.

liberteebell
05-22-2008, 07:27 AM
Explain? Which candidates did you see mouthing what part of Dr. Paul's platform?

I thought Huckabee took Paul's platform and turned them into "gold" sound bites (for a while anyway). Case in point: abolish the IRS--institute the Fair Tax. In fact, at the debates, I thought Huck was the only one who really listened and studied what Paul had to say; he's slick, he knew there was good material there.

Lots of people mouthed Paul's platform. I doubt that the Constitution would have been mentioned by anyone else, ever (maybe Fred Thompson, but none of the others) had Paul not beaten that drum constantly. Not that any of 'em would recognize the Constitution if it hit 'em in the head, but they did mouth it.

Even obamination stole some talking points--regarding foreign policy, he's as much as quoted Paul, nearly word for word. I nearly fell over when I heard it.

Bradley in DC
05-22-2008, 07:30 AM
I thought Huckabee took Paul's platform and turned them into "gold" sound bites (for a while anyway). Case in point: abolish the IRS--institute the Fair Tax. In fact, at the debates, I thought Huck was the only one who really listened and studied what Paul had to say; he's slick, he knew there was good material there.

Lots of people mouthed Paul's platform. I doubt that the Constitution would have been mentioned by anyone else, ever (maybe Fred Thompson, but none of the others) had Paul not beaten that drum constantly. Not that any of 'em would recognize the Constitution if it hit 'em in the head, but they did mouth it.

Even obamination stole some talking points--regarding foreign policy, he's as much as quoted Paul, nearly word for word. I nearly fell over when I heard it.

Fair enough--now that you mentioned it, I still have nightmares about Hillary talking about the Constitution...:eek:

LibertyEagle
05-22-2008, 07:32 AM
Jack Kemp USED to be good, on the whole, back in the day (pushing tax cuts, gold standard, etc.) before he sold out.

Well, McCain USED to have a somewhat conservative voting record too. So what? He's been completely in the toilet for the last many years.


NRA, he was just giving an example.

Yeah. A bad one.


Bartlett is no Dondero by any measure.

If this article is any yardstick, he's working on it.


Dr. Paul DID run as a Libertarian in 1988.

Not you too. :rolleyes: TWENTY frickin' years ago, he did. Once. All the rest of the time, he's been in the Republican party, is running for the Republican nomination now and has told us repeatedly that he plans to stay in the Republican party.

Note: Nader?

Bradley in DC
05-22-2008, 08:02 AM
Well, McCain USED to have a somewhat conservative voting record too. So what? He's been completely in the toilet for the last many years.

Hey, just pointing out that Bruce was there when kemp was pushing tax cuts and gold and not responsible for Kemp's later positions. :)

speciallyblend
05-22-2008, 08:10 AM
+1

And what's this deal about looking to the NRA to further the cause? Give me a break. The NRA sold us out long ago. :rolleyes:

Bartlett is sounding a bit to me like Dondero-lite.

Note: This article is all twisted, IMO. First of all, Ron Paul did not run as a Libertarian, but as a Republican. So why he keeps talking about the Libertarian party on one hand and Ron Paul on the other, is very weird. I do personally agree with him that 3rd parties are probably not the answer, because of the way the political machinery is setup. So what? All that means is we continue with the plan to kick the big government socialist encroachers out of OUR Republican party and bring it back to true conservatism. Yup, that's the ticket, imo. :)

to me the wasted vote is voting hillary/obama/mccain. So what if the gop loses because i want to vote for someone decent. the gop deserves exactly what they get,hopefully not a dam thing after their treatment of Ron Paul and us republicans.