War is...

[JonathanBydlak]

Stephen Dubner of the Freakonomics blog has this post regarding West Point cadets' views of war:

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/war-is/#more-789.

They struck me as pretty ridiculous so I posted this comment (which has yet to show up on the site):


Dubner states that "The 12 answers reflect the thoughtful, varied, and independent mindset that I have always encountered when dealing with folks at West Point."


Interestingly, I reached the opposite conclusion. The comments from our cadets are largely homogenous in that they all view war as "necessary" or yielding a "net positive" in some cases. But none state unequivocally that war is morally reprehensible, nor reflect Randolph Bourne's view that "war is the health of the state."


To me, these views do not represent diversity of opinion, but rather the effects of years of borderline brainwashing. I mean to take nothing away from our cadets, who assuredly are very bright, but it is virtually impossible for a cadet to think "independently" on this question. How can one be starting in the armed services and morally reject using warfare as a means to an end?

I'd encourage anyone else on here to leave a comment as well.

[The One]

.....the health of the state. Or something like that.

[lucius]

Posted:

Edward L. Bernays, nicknamed the Father of Spin, was the creator of modern propaganda. Bernays was Sigmund Freud's nephew, and applied Freud's work to the art of mass persuasion by blending advertising techniques with an understanding of human psychology. Bernays worked Walter Lippmann on the Committee on Public Information, otherwise known as the CPI. This government agency was created by President Woodrow Wilson in 1917 for the purpose of mustering public support for World War One. The original propaganda campaign had three rules: (1) Stress emotion over logic, (2) Demonize the enemy, and (3) Promise a war that will make the world safe for democracy. Used for every U.S. conflict since including the invasion of Afghanistan & Iraq; all have followed CPI’s playbook to the letter—you think Americans would wake-up?

From his 1928 book ‘Propaganda’: "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country…it is the intelligent minorities which need to make use of propaganda continuously and systemically."

[BillyDkid]

What a crock - War is nothing except the stupid throwing away their lives for interests of the powerful. Wars should be fought by and between the people who want to have them. I think we need to pass a law that says that any administration that starts a war should be required to fight and die in it. The exception would only be a war fought in self defense - defense of family and home and country. Let's see, when's the last time we had one of those or anything resembling a just war? No man should ever be asked or required to die or kill at the behest of another. There would never, ever be any shortage of people ready and willing to fight and die in actual defense of their country. And that people are alright with the notion of theirs sons and daughters killing and dying to futher the global political agenda of an administration simply boggles the mind. Even now people can not face the fact that their loved ones died for less than nothing in Vietnam. It is obscene and sickening. If there ever is a just war, there would never be any need to recruit people for it. I don't know enough about WWII to say if it was just, but I do know if we intended to do something about Hitler's massacre of Jews and others, we should have done it long before we did. Those who are fans of war should be required to fight them and leave the rest of us alone.

[LiveFree79]

mr. dubner,

only people who have never been in a war would describe it the way these “thoughtful, varied, and independent mindset[s]” have done. i was an infantryman in a war. i know my ‘12 replies’ to what war is, is at least based upon my five senses:

1.] defecating in my pants because i couldn’t sit, stand or crouch, without being killed, for 14 hours; 2.] then when i could move, dragging a dying, fellow soldier and his intestines strung out 5 feet or so behind him 50 meters to a medic who told me he was dead; 3.] not sleeping more than 3 hours at a time for 3 months; 4.] not taking a shower or bath for 40 days; 5.] giving a 4 or 5 year old child an opened can of fruit cocktail, and watch her walk 30 meters and step on a small mine; 6.] then trying to stop the the spurting blood pulsing from wherever her leg and groin used to be while i screamed for help while she turned a gray-blue and died; 7.] not being in any kind of shelter, outside during the monsoons for 10 days, in 45 degree weather and gusting winds, watching as my skin shriveled like a white prune, as scratches became sores and sores became a greenish oozing mass; 8.] being so bored that i would put gunpowder from a .50 caliber bullet on a beetle as big as plate, light it and bet with my fellow soldiers how far it would run before it turned over and popped; 9.]throwing a peanut m&m at at an officer after he berated me because i failed to stand up and salute him when he passed by, and then being threatened with a court martial for ‘assaulting an officer’; 10.] being wounded in the mouth by a fragment of the vertebrae of the soldier 5 feet in front of me as his back blew open; 11.] crying myself to sleep at night until i believed i was immortal and could not die; 12.] seeing a young kid beheaded a few yards away from me, suddenly, and watching the head bounce into a small filthy ditch.

you and your bright, articulate cadets don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. another memorial day is upon us. instead of inane nostrums that are disconnected from the pure obscenity that war is, write down my 12 answers and read them every day, so you memorize them. then the next time the question arises, you, your bright cadets and people who know nothing of war, will at least have some picture of what war truly is, rather than what you “wish the rest of the world knew” about what a fine institution west point may be. it goes like this: west point trains young men and women to fight war, and war is… what, again?

[Truth Warrior]

War is a Racket
By General Smedley D. Butler
http://www.wanttoknow.info/warisaracket

[Give me liberty]

War Brings fear hatred, death anger.

War kills all life, War Kills all innocents, War will destroy earth, War brings more Hatred.
quote
''War is the most effective way to get things done''

There are other ways to restore balance to the world.
and other ways to bring peace.

quote
''War is that in which humans grow most''
The ancient humans used the spiritually path, if man doesn't return to the peacefully ways war will destroy mankind.

''Fear leads to hatred and hatred leads to war''
governments use fear as a tool (war mongering, weather mongering)


So i am right?

[Kotin]

Health of the State, Sport of The Wealthy.

[american.swan]

mr. dubner,

only people who have never been in a war would describe it the way these “thoughtful, varied, and independent mindset[s]” have done. i was an infantryman in a war. i know my ‘12 replies’ to what war is, is at least based upon my five senses:

1.] defecating in my pants because i couldn’t sit, stand or crouch, without being killed, for 14 hours; 2.] then when i could move, dragging a dying, fellow soldier and his intestines strung out 5 feet or so behind him 50 meters to a medic who told me he was dead; 3.] not sleeping more than 3 hours at a time for 3 months; 4.] not taking a shower or bath for 40 days; 5.] giving a 4 or 5 year old child an opened can of fruit cocktail, and watch her walk 30 meters and step on a small mine; 6.] then trying to stop the the spurting blood pulsing from wherever her leg and groin used to be while i screamed for help while she turned a gray-blue and died; 7.] not being in any kind of shelter, outside during the monsoons for 10 days, in 45 degree weather and gusting winds, watching as my skin shriveled like a white prune, as scratches became sores and sores became a greenish oozing mass; 8.] being so bored that i would put gunpowder from a .50 caliber bullet on a beetle as big as plate, light it and bet with my fellow soldiers how far it would run before it turned over and popped; 9.]throwing a peanut m&m at at an officer after he berated me because i failed to stand up and salute him when he passed by, and then being threatened with a court martial for ‘assaulting an officer’; 10.] being wounded in the mouth by a fragment of the vertebrae of the soldier 5 feet in front of me as his back blew open; 11.] crying myself to sleep at night until i believed i was immortal and could not die; 12.] seeing a young kid beheaded a few yards away from me, suddenly, and watching the head bounce into a small filthy ditch.

you and your bright, articulate cadets don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. another memorial day is upon us. instead of inane nostrums that are disconnected from the pure obscenity that war is, write down my 12 answers and read them every day, so you memorize them. then the next time the question arises, you, your bright cadets and people who know nothing of war, will at least have some picture of what war truly is, rather than what you “wish the rest of the world knew” about what a fine institution west point may be. it goes like this: west point trains young men and women to fight war, and war is… what, again?

The best response. This needs to be printed in every editorial in the country this coming holiday.

[Primbs]

Hackworth would say this.

"War is hell, but real combat is a motherf*cker."

[sophocles07]

This government agency was created by President Woodrow Wilson in 1917 for the purpose of mustering public support for World War One.

Damn you Wiiiillllsooooon!

[Anti Federalist]

There are only two things we should fight for.

One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.

Smedley Butler

[Cinderella]

mr. dubner,

only people who have never been in a war would describe it the way these “thoughtful, varied, and independent mindset[s]” have done. i was an infantryman in a war. i know my ‘12 replies’ to what war is, is at least based upon my five senses:

1.] defecating in my pants because i couldn’t sit, stand or crouch, without being killed, for 14 hours; 2.] then when i could move, dragging a dying, fellow soldier and his intestines strung out 5 feet or so behind him 50 meters to a medic who told me he was dead; 3.] not sleeping more than 3 hours at a time for 3 months; 4.] not taking a shower or bath for 40 days; 5.] giving a 4 or 5 year old child an opened can of fruit cocktail, and watch her walk 30 meters and step on a small mine; 6.] then trying to stop the the spurting blood pulsing from wherever her leg and groin used to be while i screamed for help while she turned a gray-blue and died; 7.] not being in any kind of shelter, outside during the monsoons for 10 days, in 45 degree weather and gusting winds, watching as my skin shriveled like a white prune, as scratches became sores and sores became a greenish oozing mass; 8.] being so bored that i would put gunpowder from a .50 caliber bullet on a beetle as big as plate, light it and bet with my fellow soldiers how far it would run before it turned over and popped; 9.]throwing a peanut m&m at at an officer after he berated me because i failed to stand up and salute him when he passed by, and then being threatened with a court martial for ‘assaulting an officer’; 10.] being wounded in the mouth by a fragment of the vertebrae of the soldier 5 feet in front of me as his back blew open; 11.] crying myself to sleep at night until i believed i was immortal and could not die; 12.] seeing a young kid beheaded a few yards away from me, suddenly, and watching the head bounce into a small filthy ditch.

you and your bright, articulate cadets don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. another memorial day is upon us. instead of inane nostrums that are disconnected from the pure obscenity that war is, write down my 12 answers and read them every day, so you memorize them. then the next time the question arises, you, your bright cadets and people who know nothing of war, will at least have some picture of what war truly is, rather than what you “wish the rest of the world knew” about what a fine institution west point may be. it goes like this: west point trains young men and women to fight war, and war is… what, again?

amazing!! best answer here.....

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Stephen Dubner of the Freakonomics blog has this post regarding West Point cadets' views of war:

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/war-is/#more-789.

They struck me as pretty ridiculous so I posted this comment (which has yet to show up on the site):


Dubner states that "The 12 answers reflect the thoughtful, varied, and independent mindset that I have always encountered when dealing with folks at West Point."


Interestingly, I reached the opposite conclusion. The comments from our cadets are largely homogenous in that they all view war as "necessary" or yielding a "net positive" in some cases. But none state unequivocally that war is morally reprehensible, nor reflect Randolph Bourne's view that "war is the health of the state."


To me, these views do not represent diversity of opinion, but rather the effects of years of borderline brainwashing. I mean to take nothing away from our cadets, who assuredly are very bright, but it is virtually impossible for a cadet to think "independently" on this question. How can one be starting in the armed services and morally reject using warfare as a means to an end?

I'd encourage anyone else on here to leave a comment as well.

The King seperated himself from his people by creating a military aristocracy of nobles. West Point and other such military institutions represent a similar military aristocracy for this nation. The military aristocracy will agree with the policies established by the master class because they are paid commissions and entitlements.
This is why a well established militia of the people is important. A militia of armed people keep the King and his military aristocracy sitting at the same dinner table as the slave class.

[ronpaulhawaii]

Re: Livefree79's post


The best response. This needs to be printed in every editorial in the country this coming holiday.

Letters to the editor?

[Truth Warrior]

There are only two things we should fight for.

One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.

Smedley Butler
;)

Thanks! :D