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View Full Version : House passes bill to sue OPEC over oil prices




freelance
05-20-2008, 03:15 PM
We don't have a forum titled, ASININE, so I suppose that General Politics is as good as any.

If you need any more proof that Congress has lost its collective mind, I'm not sure what kind of proof you would need.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSWAT00953020080520

This would be hilarious if it were a SNL vignette, but it's real life in the good ole USA.

ARealConservative
05-20-2008, 03:28 PM
If OPEC is vulnerable to lawsuit, why would unions not be?

You don't like the price of a car - file a lawsuit.

Movie costs too much? File a lawsuit.


Brilliant! :rolleyes:

Zippyjuan
05-20-2008, 04:26 PM
So does Congress know how much oil or gasoline should cost?

The lawmaker said Americans "are at the mercy" of OPEC for how much they pay for gasoline, which this week hit a record average of $3.79 a gallon
Europeans would love to pay this low of a price for gasoline. They pay about twice what we do. Which is probably why we consume so much more than everybody else.
Domestic energy market manipulation may be a seperate issue. California had energy blackmail a few years ago. Rolling blackouts occured over alleged shortages and ensuing higher prices. Once investigations ensued, prices fell and the blackouts went away- without any significant increases in supply.

gbates31
05-20-2008, 11:03 PM
4char

gbates31
05-20-2008, 11:07 PM
4char

freelance
05-21-2008, 06:05 AM
Congress has zero power--it's all been transferred to the Executive branch. The agencies are where the real lawmaking powers reside now. Since they have no power, they pass meaningless laws and senseless resolutions.

angelatc
05-21-2008, 06:28 AM
So does Congress know how much oil or gasoline should cost?

Europeans would love to pay this low of a price for gasoline. They pay about twice what we do. .

Apples and oranges. First, they're taxed out the wazoo.

Second, because we use more it should cost less. That's how supply and demand works.

Finally, Europeans use a lot of nuclear power, which Americans have preferred not be involved with. They're less dependent on fossil fuels than we are.

Fox McCloud
05-21-2008, 08:25 AM
I'm not surprised that this happened...it's probably the beginning of price fixing for a number of major products since they "cost so much now"...they automatically assume that rising prices means that someone is making a bigger profit...they don't consider that they, themselves are chiefly responsible for the rising costs.

*sigh* what is this world coming to?

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
05-21-2008, 10:42 AM
Second, because we use more it should cost less. That's how supply and demand works.

Uhhh... actually, you have that completely backwards. More demand from one buyer is likely to raise prices for all buyers (with no change in supply). Maybe you're thinking of "economies of scale," which wouldn't apply much in this case.

moostraks
05-21-2008, 11:11 AM
Ugh...324 arrogant idiots. Yet another task force:"The legislation also creates a Justice Department task force to aggressively investigate gasoline price gouging and energy market manipulation."

Do they do anything constructive nowadays?? Do we have to continuely make ourselves a laughingstock? Where do they get off thinking we can sue them?

SeanEdwards
05-21-2008, 12:56 PM
After flipping through my pocket Constitution, I can't see any clearly spelled out authority for Congress to sue anything. How is it possible that we even have jurisdiction over foreign entities?

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes

ARealConservative
05-21-2008, 01:00 PM
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes

that gives us jurisdiction?

hold on, I'm writing some stuff down on paper right now that gives me jurisdiction over you.......

SeanEdwards
05-21-2008, 01:07 PM
that gives us jurisdiction?

hold on, I'm writing some stuff down on paper right now that gives me jurisdiction over you.......

If they do business in America it gives our government jurisidiction. The EU recently successfully sued microsoft for anti-competitive business practices that violated their laws. I don't see this matter as being much different.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing about the merits of the case, I'm merely responding to the claim that it's unconstitutional for the federal legislature to pass laws regarding international trade, when clearly that IS one of the few things the Congress is authorized to do under our Constitution.

ARealConservative
05-21-2008, 01:13 PM
If they do business in America it gives our government jurisidiction. The EU recently successfully sued microsoft for anti-competitive business practices that violated their laws. I don't see this matter as being much different.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing about the merits of the case, I'm merely responding to the claim that it's unconstitutional for the federal legislature to pass laws regarding international trade, when clearly that IS one of the few things the Congress is authorized to do under our Constitution.

the lawsuit isn't about the business being conducted in this country, it is about the business being conducted in foreign countries

Specifically, the lawsuit is designed to make them increase production. Did the EU tell Microsoft they need to produce more cd's of OEM software, or was it based on the product being sold within their borders?

the poster asked about foreign entities - business that operate in this country are not foreign entities.

SeanEdwards
05-21-2008, 01:19 PM
the lawsuit isn't about the business being conducted in this country, it is about the business being conducted in foreign countries

Specifically, the lawsuit is designed to make them increase production. Did the EU tell Microsoft they need to produce more cd's of OEM software, or was it based on the product being sold within their borders?

the poster asked about foreign entities - business that operate in this country are not foreign entities.

I said I'm not arguing the merits of this particular case, I merely point out that it is in fact Constitutional for Congress to regulate international commerce.

It's constitutional for Congress to declare war on Estonia too. Doesn't mean that's a good idea, but it's certainly not unconstitutional.

ARealConservative
05-21-2008, 01:29 PM
I said I'm not arguing the merits of this particular case, I merely point out that it is in fact Constitutional for Congress to regulate international commerce.

It's constitutional for Congress to declare war on Estonia too. Doesn't mean that's a good idea, but it's certainly not unconstitutional.

I can't see any clearly spelled out authority for Congress to sue anything. How is it possible that we even have jurisdiction over foreign entities?

So regulating commerce means initiating law suits?

Seems like quite a stretch to me.

HOLLYWOOD
05-21-2008, 01:34 PM
Congressional Bafoons!

This is the crap the DUMBEST VOTERS in the world Elect and Re-elect to the US Congress every term... a BUNCH of monkeys trying to F*CK a Football?

Want to understand how MORONS comprise the American voting pool?

Watch and listen to C-SPAN's Washington Journal callers every morning for the finest forms of IGNORANCE & STUPIDITY!


BUT, the point is, on US Gov & Fed's DIS-information and MIS-information... Now the BUSH REGIME and CONGRESS have someone else to blame... a Foreign Entity! Of course the MSM Media will buy it all, and SPIN IT how the government wants it reported to the people. Watch FAUX NEWS have a field day with spreading DISINFORMATION... they're great at these tactics.

US Government is 'Off The Hook' with this Premeditated, Covert, Conspiring, P.R. campaign, and of course, the US TAXPAYERS... PICK UP ALL THE TABS/BILLS!

DriftWood
05-21-2008, 01:54 PM
I shouldn't laugh about something so serious, but all this populism is kindof funny.. First Bush went to Saudi Arabia and told them to lower prices, then congress grilled Oil companies over their evil profits, and now the congress is going to sue. Ehmm.. did no one ever teach these people about demand and supply. You cant force someone to sell something for a low price (no matter how much profits the selling party makes or does not make). Trade is supposed to be voluntary. Involuntary trade is stealing.

Capitalism seems to be taking a beating.. first the increase in farming subsidies and now this. Price fixing to the rescue! Thats one sure way to run out of supply, and when that happens then ration coupons to the rescue. Yeeeay.

Cheers

HitchcockKid
05-21-2008, 05:51 PM
I am new here and have supported Ron Paul! If he does not win today, he will tomorrow!

Andrew-Austin
05-21-2008, 05:57 PM
This is one of those "please re-elect me I am pretending to try and lower the price of gas" bills.

OptionsTrader
05-21-2008, 05:58 PM
They should pass a bill to bork the federal reserve and gain control over money again. OPEC isn't the problem.

Who should we sue for wheat prices? Where's the outrage? OPEC has about as much to do with the abnormal price of wheat as they do with the abnormal price of oil.

http://i30.tinypic.com/1s06fk.png

SeanEdwards
05-21-2008, 06:07 PM
I think wheat price is at least somewhat affected by oil prices, since energy is a major input into wheat production.

OptionsTrader
05-21-2008, 06:11 PM
I think wheat price is at least somewhat affected by oil prices, since energy is a major input into wheat production.

A component of course.

Who should we sue over this outrage? OPEC?

http://i30.tinypic.com/ng1ppg.png

Truth Warrior
05-21-2008, 06:18 PM
"OPEC Sues USA for Fraudulent Payment with 'Thin Air' FRNs"

SeanEdwards
05-21-2008, 06:21 PM
A component of course.

Who should we sue over this outrage? OPEC?



Personally, I'd prefer to outsource Washington D.C. to some Indian call center.

ARealConservative
05-21-2008, 06:22 PM
"OPEC Sues USA for Fraudulent Payment with 'Thin Air' FRNs"

:D

Truth Warrior
05-21-2008, 06:24 PM
Personally, I'd prefer to outsource Washington D.C. to some Indian call center.
Downsize it first! By about 99%.:D

OptionsTrader
05-21-2008, 06:24 PM
"OPEC Sues USA for Fraudulent Payment with 'Thin Air' FRNs"

Yo for real. They have every right to be pissed off at the debasement of the money they are forced, literally at gunpoint, to accept.

pappy
05-21-2008, 06:28 PM
The funniest and saddest news I have seen today. Preposterous. We have gone way, way, way down the rabbit hole.

pappy

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
05-21-2008, 06:45 PM
We don't have a forum titled, ASININE, so I suppose that General Politics is as good as any.

If you need any more proof that Congress has lost its collective mind, I'm not sure what kind of proof you would need.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSWAT00953020080520

This would be hilarious if it were a SNL vignette, but it's real life in the good ole USA.

This will seem like a joke until the world's oil based economy becomes more of a food based economy because the oil cartel is causing hundreds of millions to starve around the world.

ARealConservative
05-21-2008, 06:48 PM
This will seem like a joke until the world's oil based economy becomes more of a food based economy because the oil cartel is starving millions all around the world.

the "oil cartel" currently accounts for 40% of oil production.

Before blaming others, we need to explain why we refuse to expand our own production, and our own alternative sources.

Truth Warrior
05-21-2008, 06:50 PM
This will seem like a joke until the world's oil based economy becomes more of a food based economy because the oil cartel is causing hundreds of millions to starve around the world.
TPTB NWO, world population reduction agenda. ;) Lose the "useless eaters". :(

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
05-21-2008, 08:25 PM
the "oil cartel" currently accounts for 40% of oil production.

Before blaming others, we need to explain why we refuse to expand our own production, and our own alternative sources.

Part of the reason our production is so low is because the cartel has at times flooded their resources onto the world market in an attempt to run our energy industries out of business. That is why they call it a cartel. Cartels are supposed to be harmful to a free market because they are able to corner and control it. As the cartel pushes up the price of energy, this in turn has pushed up the price of food. Would it be ethical for the food producing nations to create a cartel to exploit their position in the world market even at the expense of hundreds of millions of people starving to death? There really is no difference with the food producing nations doing this and what the oil cartel nations have done. Such cartels in the world eventually disrupt the world's markets to cause people to go hungry.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
05-21-2008, 08:46 PM
TPTB NWO, world population reduction agenda. ;) Lose the "useless eaters". :(

The fastest way for you to achieve your purpose would be to scrap the Consititution. This action would quickly erode our government back to a primitive caste system when a master class organized the world's lessor beings into a slave class. For those who aren't worth the price of a single bullet, just line them up in a row to shoot them. Efficiently execute the handicapped with gas, of course. Wait. Hasn't this already been done by the Nazis?

DriftWood
05-22-2008, 02:20 AM
Part of the reason our production is so low is because the cartel has at times flooded their resources onto the world market in an attempt to run our energy industries out of business. That is why they call it a cartel. Cartels are supposed to be harmful to a free market because they are able to corner and control it. As the cartel pushes up the price of energy, this in turn has pushed up the price of food. Would it be ethical for the food producing nations to create a cartel to exploit their position in the world market even at the expense of hundreds of millions of people starving to death? There really is no difference with the food producing nations doing this and what the oil cartel nations have done. Such cartels in the world eventually disrupt the world's markets to cause people to go hungry.

A food cartel is impossible. Just about every single person in the world can undercut such a cartel by growing their own food and make themselves rich selling at a lower price. A oil cartel is not that different, its very hard to keep prices higher than the market would set them. If OPEC charges to much, the producers outside selling for less will make big profits. No one would pay OPEC high prices when they can get it cheaper. Also even if OPEC controlled every single drop of oil. They still could not set prices much higher than market price. One country would fall out of line and sell at a lower price on the black market because that way they would get a bigger slice of the profits. Also even if one person owned all of the oil in the world he could not set prices much higher than market prices because, there is always alternatives. People can always grow oil. In Brazil much of the fuel that drive their cars.. is made from sugar. The price of fossil fuels can never go higher than of grown fuels.

I think OPEC has been kind by selling its oil below re-production price. their reserves are not renewable.. so they should charge a high price for it. I think they should charge as much for it as it costs to grow natural fuel. But they are nice enough to sell it for much less. They are in effect selling it below reproduction cost. Thats no way to run a business. We should thank them for this charity by sending them, a thank you letter every Christmas (okay, maybe not at Christmas).

Cheers

Anti Federalist
05-22-2008, 06:51 AM
You cant force someone to sell something for a low price (no matter how much profits the selling party makes or does not make).

In the case of oil, we did just that in the 1970's.

The second "gas crisis" was caused by price fixing.

Government set artificial "price caps", when the price exceeded those caps, no one was willing to sell oil at a loss (of course).

Result: no gas at any price.

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
05-22-2008, 07:53 AM
A food cartel is impossible. Just about every single person in the world can undercut such a cartel by growing their own food and make themselves rich selling at a lower price. A oil cartel is not that different, its very hard to keep prices higher than the market would set them. If OPEC charges to much, the producers outside selling for less will make big profits. No one would pay OPEC high prices when they can get it cheaper. Also even if OPEC controlled every single drop of oil. They still could not set prices much higher than market price. One country would fall out of line and sell at a lower price on the black market because that way they would get a bigger slice of the profits. Also even if one person owned all of the oil in the world he could not set prices much higher than market prices because, there is always alternatives. People can always grow oil. In Brazil much of the fuel that drive their cars.. is made from sugar. The price of fossil fuels can never go higher than of grown fuels.

I think OPEC has been kind by selling its oil below re-production price. their reserves are not renewable.. so they should charge a high price for it. I think they should charge as much for it as it costs to grow natural fuel. But they are nice enough to sell it for much less. They are in effect selling it below reproduction cost. Thats no way to run a business. We should thank them for this charity by sending them, a thank you letter every Christmas (okay, maybe not at Christmas).

Cheers

If agricultural nations organized to corner the food market, it would raise the price of food.
Opec is a cartel. If they are cornering the market to raise prices by withholding resources and then dumping it to wipe out opposing industry, they are a cartel because they are controlling supply and demand. What would happen if the agriculatural nations created a food cartel to withhold food from the oil cartel nations?

ARealConservative
05-22-2008, 08:03 AM
Part of the reason our production is so low is because the cartel has at times flooded their resources onto the world market in an attempt to run our energy industries out of business. That is why they call it a cartel. Cartels are supposed to be harmful to a free market because they are able to corner and control it. As the cartel pushes up the price of energy, this in turn has pushed up the price of food. Would it be ethical for the food producing nations to create a cartel to exploit their position in the world market even at the expense of hundreds of millions of people starving to death? There really is no difference with the food producing nations doing this and what the oil cartel nations have done. Such cartels in the world eventually disrupt the world's markets to cause people to go hungry.

BS.

I'm pleased that you are writing more clearly now, but you still make no sense.

We have nobody to blame but ourselves for our lack of production capacity.

Your globalist rhetoric is ugly. One country has no responsibility to produce food for another country - and the same goes for oil, or widgets.

Theocrat
05-22-2008, 08:06 AM
We don't have a forum titled, ASININE, so I suppose that General Politics is as good as any.

If you need any more proof that Congress has lost its collective mind, I'm not sure what kind of proof you would need.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSWAT00953020080520

This would be hilarious if it were a SNL vignette, but it's real life in the good ole USA.

Could this just be blowback on the U.S. from all of our overseas intervention, particularly in OPEC nations? One can only wonder...


I can't see any clearly spelled out authority for Congress to sue anything. How is it possible that we even have jurisdiction over foreign entities?

So regulating commerce means initiating law suits?

Seems like quite a stretch to me.

Maybe we can settle our lawsuit in the International Court of Justice (http://www.icj-cij.org/homepage/index.php?lang=en). After all, we're losing our national sovereignty at every turn anyway. :(

DriftWood
05-22-2008, 11:02 AM
[deleted]

DriftWood
05-22-2008, 11:12 AM
In the case of oil, we did just that in the 1970's.

The second "gas crisis" was caused by price fixing.

Government set artificial "price caps", when the price exceeded those caps, no one was willing to sell oil at a loss (of course).

Result: no gas at any price.

Yeah, it kind of amounts to the same thing. The govt might be able to domestically force someone to sell below market price for a while, but in the end the govt cant force someone to sell at a loss (because as you say the supply will run out when selling below market price)

Cheers