Harrassed In town for OCing

[rmodel65]

since purchasing my firearm I have made the decision largely to carry openly.

Well I went out for a night with a lady friend of mine, decided to visit Books a million guess they got a man with a gun call? Went outside officer comes up to me ask me what im doing. Shopping maybe? :P anyways ask for my license, tell me it only allows me to carry in my yard. then the other officer ask me to open my trunk, I inform him im not consenting to any searches. he then repeats the command it very loudly. I tell him again soon as I open the trunk, he orders me to put the gun in there. They go off to research the code. tell me I cant carry like this until July. The second officer then asks for my DL and writes down all my info. The first officer ask why im carrying a gun. I respond for protection. He then informs me of his opinion, that I don't need a gun, that is what the police are for:( I tried to keep from arguing, i bit my tongue and didn't raise my voice. I headed straight to the county police headquarters and asked to speak to the supervisor. he was of little help. I intend to go visit the police chief Monday morning, and also call every one of the county commissioners

from what I've read they don't have the right to stop you for legally openly carrying. since openly carrying is in itself not PC or reasonable suspicion. Georgia doesn't have a identify yourself statute when on foot. except for after hours loitering or prowling etc not during normal business hours. I have the case law cited somewhere in a link





oh well end rant:P

[Perry]

Lawsuits.

[evilfunnystuff]

cause we all know no crime ever slips past the cops

[soapmistress]

GOOD FOR YOU!!!

My husband and I have had little luck even getting the carry/transport laws clearly explained to us for our state. California sucks!

It's like - gun out in the open, bullets locked in trunk or something... but my question to them is always "Don't we have the right to bear arms? A useless piece of plastic is not an armament. Only a loaded weapon can be fired..." And it just goes in circles...

[Uriel999]

Wait first they tell you that you can only OC in your yard, but then tell you that you can't carry like that until July? WTF. You should pursue this, if not for you, for the bigger implications of every gun owning American citizen. Oh and I believe that you can find plenty of statistics that show how worthless the cops are when real madmen armed to pull a Columbine or Virginia Tech. Why is it people don't realize that an armed society is a polite society. Hell that's essentially how America won the Cold War. Just kept making and storing nukes making Russia outspend herself trying to keep up. The nations never had direct conflict because even those damned commies realized pushing that little red button meant certain destruction of humanity...

Fight it!!!

[Chester Copperpot]

OMG i just realized that OC could be a very good way at civil disobedience...

Hello police? Theres a man outside standing up for his rights... holy cow,.

[newyearsrevolution08]

You were in an establishment though right? odds are the call didn't come to the police like that though.

If anyone was open carrying in my store I would odds are pull my own first then ask questions and or call cops.

You never know a persons intent when they carry even if it is for a legal reason. Its a safety thing in my opinion as far as IN an establishment.

Not saying that you needed to be disarmed but I do see why police FIRST made you put your gun away THEN see what the law was.

If you don't like the current laws locally then get together with others locally who feel the same way you do and change the laws. Griping or yelling at laws, crooked cops and whoever else will not solve or fix anything BECAUSE they have their trusty rule books.

Now imagine living in California, hell I would need to be Elvis himself to get a concealed weapons permit here in Fresno. Reason why I am campaign manager for a local ron paul supporter for mayor Jim Boswell.

He is a gun owners rights, medical marijuana rights, local rights and I can keep going.


Get your mayor out, get new city council THEN replace your sheriff with one that will stand by the constitution and not bullshit laws that some prick in d.c. wrote to disarm Americans.




since purchasing my firearm I have made the decision largely to carry openly.

Well I went out for a night with a lady friend of mine, decided to visit Books a million guess they got a man with a gun call? Went outside officer comes up to me ask me what im doing. Shopping maybe? :P anyways ask for my license, tell me it only allows me to carry in my yard. then the other officer ask me to open my trunk, I inform him im not consenting to any searches. he then repeats the command it very loudly. I tell him again soon as I open the trunk, he orders me to put the gun in there. They go off to research the code. tell me I cant carry like this until July. The second officer then asks for my DL and writes down all my info. The first officer ask why im carrying a gun. I respond for protection. He then informs me of his opinion, that I don't need a gun, that is what the police are for:( I tried to keep from arguing, i bit my tongue and didn't raise my voice. I headed straight to the county police headquarters and asked to speak to the supervisor. he was of little help. I intend to go visit the police chief Monday morning, and also call every one of the county commissioners

from what I've read they don't have the right to stop you for legally openly carrying. since openly carrying is in itself not PC or reasonable suspicion. Georgia doesn't have a identify yourself statute when on foot. except for after hours loitering or prowling etc not during normal business hours. I have the case law cited somewhere in a link





oh well end rant:P

[newyearsrevolution08]

OMG i just realized that OC could be a very good way at civil disobedience...

Hello police? Theres a man outside standing up for his rights... holy cow,.

Not the best thing to "test out" on any mass scale though lol. I know some might be prepared to be a martyr, NOT ME I have a family to take care of and am happy to change laws locally, legally and actively until it gets done.

I do however get your point 10000000% that it is OUR RIGHT as Americans to own and carry BUT you still will deal with the court system and even jail terms WHILE standing up for your rights.

Radical change and action is needed and soon.

[rmodel65]

yeah i have no family to support, so if i had to sit in their for a day or 2 then i would be pissed but it wouldn't hurt me financially. i read that i need to send a notarized letter to the police explaining exactly the case laws etc and then it will open them to a law suit more easily if they dont comply with the trainig problems they have be warned of

[Dequeant]

The police to protect you? Like they were protecting the people INSIDE the store with the "gunman" by waiting outside for you to leave the building.....


Even if you started shooting, it probably wouldn't have changed a thing except the consequences (as in they'd have still just waited outside for you).

[rmodel65]

this is what im gonna go discuss with the chief tomorrow http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-1993.ZS.html

and also terry stops etc on foot http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html and some other things ive dug up




SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
FLORIDA v. J. L.
CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA
No. 98—1993. Argued February 29, 2000–Decided March 28, 2000

After an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun, officers went to the bus stop and saw three black males, one of whom, respondent J. L., was wearing a plaid shirt. Apart from the tip, the officers had no reason to suspect any of the three of illegal conduct. The officers did not see a firearm or observe any unusual movements. One of the officers frisked J. L. and seized a gun from his pocket. J. L., who was then almost 16, was charged under state law with carrying a concealed firearm without a license and possessing a firearm while under the age of 18. The trial court granted his motion to suppress the gun as the fruit of an unlawful search. The intermediate appellate court reversed, but the Supreme Court of Florida quashed that decision and held the search invalid under the Fourth Amendment.

Held: An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer’s stop and frisk of that person. An officer, for the protection of himself and others, may conduct a carefully limited search for weapons in the outer clothing of persons engaged in unusual conduct where, inter alia, the officer reasonably concludes in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons in question may be armed and presently dangerous. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30. Here, the officers’ suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon arose not from their own observations but solely from a call made from an unknown location by an unknown caller. The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant’s knowledge or credibility. See Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 327. The contentions of Florida and the United States as amicus that the tip was reliable because it accurately described J. L.’s visible attributes misapprehend the reliability needed for a tip to justify a Terry stop. The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person. This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a “firearm exception,” under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. The facts of this case do not require the Court to speculate about the circumstances under which the danger alleged in an anonymous tip might be so great–e.g., a report of a person carrying a bomb–as to justify a search even without a showing of reliability.

727 So. 2d 204, affirmed.

Ginsburg, J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court. Kennedy, J., filed a concurring opinion, in which Rehnquist, C. J., joined.

[american.swan]

Maybe if you wore some kind of fake security company uniform and openly carried they might leave you alone a bit more. :)

[rmodel65]

haha no also gonna ask if he subscribes to this : http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=757&issue_id=122005





Chief’s Counsel: Responding to Gun Possession Reports

By John M. Collins, Esq., General Counsel, Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, Shrewsbury, Massachusetts






ecause it is legal in most states to carry a handgun if properly licensed, a report that an individual possesses a handgun, without any additional information suggesting criminal activity, might not create reasonable suspicion that a crime is being or will be committed.1 Where simply carrying a handgun is not in itself illegal and does not constitute probable cause to arrest,2 it follows that carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish reasonable suspicion justifying a Terry stop. The same applies to persons in motor vehicles. An investigatory stop is only justified when the police have "a reasonable suspicion, based on specific, articulable facts and reasonable inferences there from," that the subject "had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime."3

State laws vary regarding both open and concealed carrying of firearms, but courts are usually sensitive to officer and public safety concerns over the presence in public of firearms. Mere possession may not be sufficient to authorize police action, but in circumstances where the gun presents an imminent threat because of shots just fired, or likely to be fired, and thereby presents a "suggestion of threats of violence, acts of violence, impending criminal activity, or concern for public safety," a court is likely to find there was reasonable suspicion for a threshold inquiry.4

Anonymous Tip
In a 1990 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed that, through corroboration of its detail, an anonymous tip can be enough to give rise to the reasonable suspicion required for a stop.5 More recently though, the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 ruled that an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person, even where descriptive detail regarding the subject has been corroborated. The Court declined to adopt the "firearms exception" to Terry's requirement of reasonable suspicion.6 Similarly, in another 2000 Supreme Court case, an anonymous tip with a physical description and location that a person had a gun was not enough for reasonable suspicion, absent anything else to arouse the officer's suspicion.7 In that case the Court ruled that it was irrelevant that the defendant fled when the officer got out of his car and ordered the defendant to approach him.8 The tipster need not deliver an ironclad case to the police to justify an investigatory stop; it suffices if a prudent law enforcement officer would reasonably conclude that the likelihood existed that criminal activities were afoot and that a particular suspect was probably engaged in them.9

Clearly, not every report of a citizen is worthy of belief or sufficient to justify a response by an officer. A caller could, for example, intend merely to harass someone by making an anonymous call to police and claiming someone had a gun hidden in his or her vehicle or on his or her person.

The ultimate issue on the report's usefulness is whether the contents (and other attendant circumstances) create a reasonable suspicion that a dangerous situation exists, creating authority to detain or frisk or both. It certainly helps if the report contains particular facts that do one or more of the following:

* Create a suggestion of threats of violence in this situation

* Are themselves acts of violence

* Indicate impending criminal activity

* Raise a reasonable concern for public safety

Of course, in the many jurisdictions where carrying a concealed weapon is illegal, this analytical step may be obviated and inquiry will proceed to the next issue, the likely veracity of the information source. In the case of an anonymous tip, the question will be whether corroboration of detail goes beyond the mere description of a person already in public.

Examples of Appropriate Police Actions
Examples may be helpful here. Police officers would be acting reasonably in stopping and frisking an individual after receiving information on the street from a known bystander that the person was displaying a handgun on a street corner in a high crime area at 5:30 in the morning, or if it reasonably appears that a suspect is not only armed but also dangerous, as would be the case if the individual appeared to be reaching for his or her weapon. The possession of a firearm by a minor in many states may be viewed as presumptively illegal, and thus sufficient to justify an investigatory stop of the minor by the police, again provided the information source is sufficiently credible. A constitutionally reliable report of the sighting of someone carrying a sawed-off shotgun-especially in states where this is illegal-would likely justify an immediate investigatory stop. Loading a weapon in public, especially where there is no clearly lawful reason for doing so (to begin hunting or target shooting, for instance), and especially in a high crime area at night or during early morning hours, could provide the extra information some courts require in order to allow police officers to conduct an investigatory stop and frisk of a person reportedly in possession of a firearm.

Enforcement Guidelines
Where a police officer receives a report that a person is in possession of a firearm, but the weapon is not visible to the officer, the following options are available:

* Engage in a voluntary contact and simply ask the person if he or she has a firearm.

* If he or she confirms he or she is in possession of a gun, the officer may ask the person to voluntarily hand it over just while the interview takes place, or insist that they hand it over if there is a reasonable belief that the safety of the officer or public is in jeopardy, or that the person has used it in a crime or is about to do so.

* If the person denies having a firearm or refuses to answer, and the officer does not otherwise have (legally sufficient) reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, the officer must allow the person to continue on his or her way.

* If the person denies having a firearm or refuses to answer, but the officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person is armed and presents a danger to the officer or public, the officer may conduct a stop and frisk the person. If the officer finds a weapon, the officer may hold it while conducting the field inquiry. As long as the person is properly licensed, and no arrest takes place, the officer must return the gun at the conclusion of the interview.

* If the officer has a warrant or has probable cause to arrest the person for a crime, the officer may conduct a thorough search (not merely a frisk) and take possession of any weapon.

* Where the person appears to be a minor and therefore too young to have firearm (in most states), the police may have reason to believe that a crime is being committed (unlawful carrying of a firearm) and may therefore conduct a stop rather than a mere encounter
.


1 See, for example, Com. v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178, 552 N.E.2d 538 (1990), cert. denied, 498 U.S. 951, 111 S. Ct. 372, 112 L.Ed.2d 334 (1990).
2 Id.
3 See Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968).
4 Com. v. Alvarado, 423 Mass. 277, 667 N.E.2d 856 (1998).
5 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 110 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2. 301 (1990).
6 Florida v. J.L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375, 146 L.Ed.2d 254 (2000).
7 Pennsylvania v. D.M., U.S. 120 S. Ct. 203, 146 L.Ed.2d 953 (2000).
8 Id.
9 Alabama v. White, 496 U.S. 325, 1105 S. Ct. 2412, 110 L.Ed.2d 301 (1990); U.S. v. Diallo, 29 F.3d 23 (1st Cir. 1994); U.S. v. Taylor, 162 F.3d 12 (1st Cir. 1998).

[Doktor_Jeep]

I plan on OCing someday and having a hidden camera.

And when the snivelling ninnying leftist (or neocon perhaps) calls in a false charge that I am t threatening people or something like that, I will have the tape to roll to prove otherwise.

And if the cops arrest me anyway, LAWSUIT. I will sue them individually too, just to F**k their lives up, as well as get big $$ from the municipality. The money will be spent on more guns.

And as for the ninnying spineless POS, I will subpeona the call records and find out who did it, and if that person is not charges with making false statements, ANOTHER LAWSUIT.

But wait,

that person will also be sued.

Yes, enemies of liberty, if you see someone having a gun and he is not using it to rob somebody or threatening you, then mind your own business and accept that some people openly carry.


So we be nice, you be nice too. Get it?

[Doktor_Jeep]

I am starting to wonder if it's time for a National Jefferson Walk day.

You know what a Jefferon walk is, don't you?

[Dequeant]

I'd like to open carry (i already ccw) sometime just to see the reactions. If people freak out about it, i will get a shirt made.....it'll say.....

FRONT:

"THE MAN WEARING THIS SHIRT HAS AN INCREDIBLY LARGE..."

BACK:

"GUN......NOW GO AWAY"


......

Or perhaps another, all black shirt, with a big red arrow pointing to the holster on my right hip, with this printed above the arrow...

"OMFG, HE'S GOT A GUN!!!"

[american.swan]

I'd like to open carry (i already ccw) sometime just to see the reactions. If people freak out about it, i will get a shirt made.....it'll say.....

FRONT:

"THE MAN WEARING THIS SHIRT HAS AN INCREDIBLY LARGE..."

BACK:

"GUN......NOW GO AWAY"


......

Or perhaps another, all black shirt, with a big red arrow pointing to the holster on my right hip, with this printed above the arrow...

"OMFG, HE'S GOT A GUN!!!"

:) good shirt

[tommyzDad]

He then informs me of his opinion, that I don't need a gun, that is what the police are for:

:rolleyes: Yeah, okay. I guess Officer Donut was out to lunch, and has yet to hear about the VA Tech shootings--cop presence at the appropriate time, zero, and same for campus security--and the recent church shooting. (In the latter, I believe it was Joe Ordinary tackling the shooter, and not a LEO.)

[maeqFREEDOMfree]

Awesome story!!! thanks for the post. In NH, there has been OC "events" where people actually go out into a neighborhood and rake leaves, pick up trash etc, but all of the people are carryng openly... it's great civil disobedience, even though it's not breaking any law.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

:rolleyes: Yeah, okay. I guess Officer Donut was out to lunch, and has yet to hear about the VA Tech shootings--cop presence at the appropriate time, zero, and same for campus security--and the recent church shooting. (In the latter, I believe it was Joe Ordinary tackling the shooter, and not a LEO.)

In a situation like the VA Tech shootings, I wouldn't want to be the only person with a visible sidearm. It probably makes you a target before you know there's a situation. In principle, I agree with OC and I'm not bothered when others do. There are many times when it's not so great from a utilitarian standpoint, regardless of what the misguided Officer Donut thinks.

[Sandra]

Private establishments have the right to tell you whether you can have a firearm inside their place of business. Bars are notorious for it. Accept or reject the rights of a free market.

[rmodel65]

yes i know they have a right, currently in GA it is illegal to carry in a bar or a restaurant that serves alky. but july 1st restaurant w/alky will be free game in ga. along with state parks, widlife management area, public transportation.

Yes i respect the right they have to ask you to leave(in ga a posted sign means nothing you must be asked to leave personally) if you refuse then it will be criminal trespass.

but if they ask me to leave they also ask my money to leave and not come back ;)

[JRegs85]

That is lame. But that's the problem with OC laws....the population at large has to be comfortable with it, certain parts of a state might not be. It really is too bad that carrying concealed is bulky and annoying.

[Doktor_Jeep]

That is lame. But that's the problem with OC laws....the population at large has to be comfortable with it, certain parts of a state might not be. It really is too bad that carrying concealed is bulky and annoying.

if the population can be made to be comfortable with things foisted against their sensibilities, then going BACK to freemen openly carrying armaments, as prescribed by common law, will work every time it is tried.

[SeanEdwards]

OMG i just realized that OC could be a very good way at civil disobedience...

Hello police? Theres a man outside standing up for his rights... holy cow,.

The black panthers got their initial notoriety by following police cars around with a car full of well armed guys. When the cops would make a move to arrest somebody these black panther guys would get out of their car, rifles in hand, and peacefully observe the arrest. Cops did not like this very much.