U.S. using food crisis to boost (GMO) bio-engineered crops

[FrankRep]

U.S. using food crisis to boost bio-engineered crops

Chicago Tribune
May 14, 2008

The Bush administration has slipped a controversial ingredient into the $770 million aid package it recently proposed to ease the world food crisis, adding language that would promote the use of genetically modified crops in food-deprived countries.

The value of genetically modified, or bio-engineered, food is an intensely disputed issue in the U.S. and in Europe, where many countries have banned foods made from genetically modified organisms, or GMOs.

Proponents say that GMO crops can result in higher yields from plants that are hardier in harsh climates, like those found in hungry African nations.

"We certainly think that it is established fact that a number of bio-engineered crops have shown themselves to increase yields through their drought resistance and pest resistance," said Dan Price, a food aid expert on the White House's National Security Council.
...


Full Story:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-food-crops_14may14%2C0%2C7229990.story



scary.

[torchbearer]

Why are GMOs bad?

[FrankRep]

Why are GMOs bad?

Changing the genetic structure of foods have ill side effects on the body.


Dangers of Genetically Engineered Foods
http://www.responsibletechnology.org/GMFree/AboutGMFoods/DangersofGMFoods/index.cfm

[torchbearer]

Changing the genetic structure of foods have ill side effects on the body.


Dangers of Genetically Engineered Foods
http://www.responsibletechnology.org/GMFree/AboutGMFoods/DangersofGMFoods/index.cfm

YOu do realize we've been genetically altering plants for 100s of years to produce better varieties.
The only difference is now we are more precise.
I grew up on the farm. All grain seeds were enhanced in some way or another.

[yongrel]

Good. It's about damn time.

[RSLudlum]

Why are GMOs bad?


some GMO seed companies have been charged with implementing non-reproductive/infertile 'programming' into some of it's seed stock, ie if you use some GM'd seed to grow corn, the actual corn seed you're crop produces will be unable to produce another generation. The corn is still edible, but if you are the farmer with the GM'd seeds then you will have to buy more corn seed for next seed instead of keeping some of your crop for seeding.

Also, parts of the e.coli bacteria's DNA have been used in the past to facilitate 'modification' of some food crop's DNA. Although it is just a very small part of e. coli's coding, which does not necessarily mean it represents itself as e. coli in final form, it is quite un-nerving to think about the possibility of it having sometype of accidental, ill effect on the consumers of such food produced with the technique. I don't know if they're still employing the use of the e. coli. Could be a non issue, and just hyperbole but I do remember reading a few articles on the subject a few years ago.

Some GM seed companies have used 'patent rights' against small, non-GM using farmers by claiming these farmers have violated the companies' claim to the genetic code showing up in the farmers' crops, of which obtained the 'genetically modified' code due to wind pollination into the non-GM farmers' fields.

Genetic modification has been going on for a long time, just not on such a drastic molecular scale as it's done today. Didn't our ancestors pick the best, biggest, and hardiest (sp?) producing crops by culling out the least desirable? Did Gregor Mendel really fathom the enormous impact his discoveries would have?

[PeterWellington]

If by "scary" you were talking about genetically modified foods, I still haven't seen any convincing evidence that they pose a health threat.

If you were talking about the huge sums of money that the government continues to steal from us and give away to "good causes" as being scary, then I completely agree.

[FrankRep]

We don't know yet what the long-term side effects will be with genetically modified food.

[satchelmcqueen]

YOu do realize we've been genetically altering plants for 100s of years to produce better varieties.
The only difference is now we are more precise.
I grew up on the farm. All grain seeds were enhanced in some way or another.

Really? i wish i was. maybe ild be more keen on things farm wise.

[amy31416]

If you're scared of GM food, if you don't like it, if you think that it's part of an evil plot to take over your mind, body and soul--then for crying out loud, don't eat it.

It is a good thing in areas where people are starving and lacking in vital nutrients, areas that generally can't grow crops. Golden rice is a GM food that was modified to have a higher content of vitamin A. Yeah, that sucks ass. More vitamin A for poor starving people--evil sons of bitches!

The only thing I don't like is terminator seeds, anyone who produces them or encourages them ain't getting my support.

[RSLudlum]

The only thing I don't like is terminator seeds, anyone who produces them or encourages them ain't getting my support.


QFT!

Do you know of a listing of companies and their seed products that utilize 'terminating' technology?

[amy31416]

QFT!

Do you know of a listing of companies and their seed products that utilize 'terminating' technology?

I asked the same question and all I know for sure is Monsanto. But like so many other big companies, they own a lot of other smaller companies that don't have that name on the products, yet are produced by Monsanto.

So, it'll take some research, but in the meanwhile, make sure that if you buy seeds, you always buy the heirloom type. I'll post back when I find anything relatively definitive or interesting.

[torchbearer]

We never seeded our fields from our own stock.
We didn't have anywhere to safely store than much seed over the winter.

It was more cost effective to buy the treated seeds, plus you'd get better yeild with the bought seeds. They were made to be resistant.

Even cotton plants were altered to help fight bole weevels.

[amy31416]

We never seeded our fields from our own stock.
We didn't have anywhere to safely store than much seed over the winter.

It was more cost effective to buy the treated seeds, plus you'd get better yeild with the bought seeds. They were made to be resistant.

Even cotton plants were altered to help fight bole weevels.

I don't protest terminator seeds because I think that all farmers should store seeds over the winter or even say that I will do so. I protest them because of two reasons:

1. I like tinkering with plants, if they have terminator seeds, that trait is likely passed on to any hybrids, thus screwing up any genetic manipulation that an amateur such as myself might like to do.

2. If the majority of crops are from terminator seeds, that puts the whole food supply in danger if some shitty things happen. It also makes a farmer more dependent on the producers of seeds whether they like it or not.

I want to do what I can to see that that isn't the case. I fully support GM foods, but definitely not terminator seeds.

[pinkmandy]

Amy, thank you for pointing out that difference (okay v terminator seeds). You just enlightened me a bit, or clarifed things for me. Something. I watched that Monsanto video a few weeks ago and literally FREAKED OUT over the whole gmo thing. The thing that scared me the most was wiping out indigenous food supplies and being forced to buy seed, pay royalties, buy fertilizer, herbicide...all that jazz.

Torch, you should check out the Monsanto vid. http://www.livevideo.com/video/embedLink/1C4FB64D50354B9A856504954B453CC9/580798/the-world-according-to-monsant.aspx

[torchbearer]

Our seeds weren't terminated.
The grain that fell on the field would try to grow before the winter frost killed it.
But they were still enhanced seeds.
If we wanted, we could have kept our own stock, but it would have cost us a lot of money to build and maintain a dryer.

[mizrae]

I would suggest you read the following article at Natural News:
Genetically Modified Organisms - A Dangerous Experiment (http://www.naturalnews.com/023238.html)

or watch the movie: BAD SEED - The Truth about our Food (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1TOss9Mslw)

Even the farmers interviewed in the King Corn (http://www.kingcorn.net/) documentary are calling the GM corn they grow "crap"

You really do not want to eat foods that are made with GM produce.

[Dr.3D]

I was talking to some Mexican farmers who always saved seed from the last crop to use again the next season. They have said the U.S. corn has been cross pollinating with their corn and now they are getting a lot of seed that does not grow the next season. They also said the flavor of the corn has been going down hill and they think it is because of this cross pollination.

What is going to happen if all of the heirloom crops become contaminated through cross pollination and through time, year after year, less and less seeds are produced that are viable for the next years crop. Seems like a road toward world famine to me.

[Agent CSL]

If you're scared of GM food, if you don't like it, if you think that it's part of an evil plot to take over your mind, body and soul--then for crying out loud, don't eat it.
Great advice, major flaw. There's no need to label GMO food. Most GMO food we eat is not labeled as such. How then can we choose not to eat it?

When I hear about humans tampering this much with nature it irks me. Torchbearer, I don't think you understand. Yes we've been "altering" our seeds for better crops BUT we did this through collecting the stronger seeds, cross-pollinating different varieties, and discarding the weaklings. This is evolution with human intervention at it's best. It IS NOT the same as "genetically modified" which forces seeds to take on unnatural characteristics foreign to it's own genetic family.

We place the cauliflower mosaic virus into the gene to expand the effect of the "roundup resistant" gene. Do you even know what CMV does? It can latch on to bacteria or radical cells and cause it to rapidly spread. Luckily most people have enough antibodies to keep it down.

GMO labeled as all this X-resistant is a farce. Have you even considered the farmers in India who are forced to suicide after their crops have failed? Dozens of cases. They thought GMO would be their golden ticket, but all their crops failed. They couldn't pay the banks. They were forced to sell their farms or die (whilst their families were left with the responsibility).

Then there's the terminator protocol they've put into the seed. I don't know about you, but, I don't want my children growing up in a world where we learn where our seed comes from........ multinational corporations. The concept of a seed that doesn't produce after 1 year is scary. The potential consequences are great. Since this gene is manipulated to be a dominant gene, I am afraid that it will spread to other plants.

Then we have the farmers being sued over patents of genetics.


There are so many wrongs about GMO and yet they remain unlabeled.

[amy31416]

I was talking to some Mexican farmers who always saved seed from the last crop to use again the next season. They have said the U.S. corn has been cross pollinating with their corn and now they are getting a lot of seed that does not grow the next season. They also said the flavor of the corn has been going down hill and they think it is because of this cross pollination.

What is going to happen if all of the heirloom crops become contaminated through cross pollination and through time, year after year, less and less seeds are produced that are viable for the next years crop. Seems like a road toward world famine to me.

Ahh, that's another issue with terminator seeds that I hadn't thought of. It's just incredibly stupid to intentionally or unintentionally destroy the sustainability inherent in crops.

Thousands of years of humans modifying crops to produce better quality, yields, etc. and a few companies could destroy that with this terminator technology.

It's up to people like us along with farmers to stop this type of thing and reverse it. I'll do some research when I get a chance and see what I can find out about it.

[amy31416]

Great advice, major flaw. There's no need to label GMO food. Most GMO food we eat is not labeled as such. How then can we choose not to eat it?



I belong to a Whole Foods Co-op (not Whole Foods Market, that's different) that does not allow any GM foods at all, if they can figure it out, I'm sure we can too.

I'll ask next time I go.

[asgardshill]

I belong to a Whole Foods Co-op (not Whole Foods Market, that's different) that does not allow any GM foods at all, if they can figure it out, I'm sure we can too.

I'll ask next time I go.

I'm curious about that myself, and look forward to a report. Does the co-op depend solely on the wholesaler's word that a veggie is not GM, is there some sort of field test for GMage; how does it work?

[amy31416]

I'm curious about that myself, and look forward to a report. Does the co-op depend solely on the wholesaler's word that a veggie is not GM, is there some sort of field test for GMage; how does it work?

My notion is that they depend on the wholesaler's word, but I'll ask. It's one of those places where I'm actually a shareholder and they have meetings and stuff, maybe I'll actually go to one of the meetings and see if they can clarify.

[asgardshill]

My notion is that they depend on the wholesaler's word, but I'll ask. It's one of those places where I'm actually a shareholder and they have meetings and stuff, maybe I'll actually go to one of the meetings and see if they can clarify.

Thanks. I'll keep checking because I'd really like to know.

I know its probably just my mid-morning pessimism coming out to play, but it seems to me that a wholesaler could make a lot more long green by swearing up and down that a particular veggie was non-GM when it was actually conceived in some Monsanto lab basement in New Jersey. (Think Little Shop Of Horrors without Rick Moranis and a plant that can't actually sing very well :eek:)

[amy31416]

Thanks. I'll keep checking because I'd really like to know.

I know its probably just my mid-morning pessimism coming out to play, but it seems to me that a wholesaler could make a lot more long green by swearing up and down that a particular veggie was non-GM when it was actually conceived in some Monsanto lab basement in New Jersey. (Think Little Shop Of Horrors without Rick Moranis and a plant that can't actually sing very well :eek:)

Feed me Seymour! Feed me all....... night........ long!!!

Well, when I go out for errands I'll stop by and pick up their calendar and see when the next meeting is and give ya an update on when I might get some info if I can't get it today.

[LittleLightShining]

Great advice, major flaw. There's no need to label GMO food. Most GMO food we eat is not labeled as such. How then can we choose not to eat it?

When I hear about humans tampering this much with nature it irks me. Torchbearer, I don't think you understand. Yes we've been "altering" our seeds for better crops BUT we did this through collecting the stronger seeds, cross-pollinating different varieties, and discarding the weaklings. This is evolution with human intervention at it's best. It IS NOT the same as "genetically modified" which forces seeds to take on unnatural characteristics foreign to it's own genetic family.

We place the cauliflower mosaic virus into the gene to expand the effect of the "roundup resistant" gene. Do you even know what CMV does? It can latch on to bacteria or radical cells and cause it to rapidly spread. Luckily most people have enough antibodies to keep it down.

GMO labeled as all this X-resistant is a farce. Have you even considered the farmers in India who are forced to suicide after their crops have failed? Dozens of cases. They thought GMO would be their golden ticket, but all their crops failed. They couldn't pay the banks. They were forced to sell their farms or die (whilst their families were left with the responsibility).

Then there's the terminator protocol they've put into the seed. I don't know about you, but, I don't want my children growing up in a world where we learn where our seed comes from........ multinational corporations. The concept of a seed that doesn't produce after 1 year is scary. The potential consequences are great. Since this gene is manipulated to be a dominant gene, I am afraid that it will spread to other plants.

Then we have the farmers being sued over patents of genetics.


There are so many wrongs about GMO and yet they remain unlabeled.EXACTLY

[Ninja Homer]

Like most issues, GMO shouldn't be looked at in a black or white, good or bad sense. Obviously, it has done many good things, saving many people from dieing from starvation. On the flip side, in areas where people have plenty of food, it has caused many health problems.

I don't have any problem at all with selective breeding. For instance, wheat was created about 5,000 years ago via selective breeding. The things that wheat has done for the world shouldn't need any explaining. The only problem with selective breeding is that it can take thousands of years for the human body to adapt to consuming a new food. In the case of wheat, about 1% of the population has coeliac disease, which is basically an allergic reaction to a particular protein found in wheat. Who knows how long it will be before 100% of the population can handle wheat.

With GMO foods, they alter the DNA of a crop, and they can come up with a lot of new breeds very quickly compared to selective breeding. They can test them all and if they find one with properties that they like, they can start running additional testing on it such as safety or environmental impact. Through gene splicing, they may develop a new crop that can grow in an area where it couldn't grow before. It may save a lot of people from starvation, and that is truly awesome. However, I don't feel that they are tested long enough on humans to know the long term health effects.

Food serves a higher purpose than just filling your stomach. The body breaks it down and uses the vitamins, minerals, and proteins to keep the body going. If a crop is developed that will grow in an area that is deficient in minerals, than that crop just isn't going to have the proper amount of minerals to sustain the human body. People eating those crops will have to get those minerals by other means.

Personally, I feel that if you have the option of eating organic foods that are full of natural vitamins and minerals, or eating GMO crops that may be lacking and require supplementation, you're always going to be better off eating organic. It's the way the human body has always received vitamins, minerals, and proteins, the body knows what to do with it that way because it always comes in the perfect proportions, and there aren't a lot of worries about allergies to new GMO foods or pesticides, herbicides, or other toxins.

Where I see the biggest problems with GMO crops is corporations like Monsanto. Their goal is not to solve the starvation problems of the world, but to wipe out all their competition and control the world's food supply. They create crops that can't reproduce (I'm sure there's a Bible verse that specifically addresses that), and can't grow except by using their own fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides. Certainly, all GMO developers are not bad, but those that are can be very harmful.

Monsanto is evil. They should have been sued out of existence long ago. They are the creators of Agent Orange, the particularly nasty herbicide that was used in Vietnam, which has caused cancer in thousands and thousands of veterans. The treatment of these cancer cases is paid for by taxes. I don't have a problem with tax dollars paying for the treatment of veterans, but since Monsanto still exists, they should be the ones paying for it.

Monsanto also brought us aspartame. If you don't know anything about aspartame poisoning, research it. Aspartame is actually a GMO. It failed FDA testing until Donald Rumsfeld was hired as CEO of G.D. Searle, and used his political pull in Washington to get it approved by the FDA in 1981. The simple fact that Rumsfeld was involved in getting aspartame its FDA approval should be enough to get most Ron Paul supporters to kick their diet soda addiction.

One of the countries having the most problems with GMO crops is India. Many Indian farmers bought GMO seed from Monsanto. Then they had to buy pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers from Monsanto because they are all kind of genetically engineered as a set to work together. If they used other products, their crops would die. They also have to re-purchase Monsanto seed every year. Monsanto doesn't allow re-seeding because they hold the patent on that seed, and usually any attempt to re-seed fails anyway because most of them won't reproduce. As a result, many Indian farmers have become deep in debt, and over 150,000 of them have committed suicide since 1993 because that's the only way they see to get their family out of debt.

The problem with eating GMO foods is that your body doesn't know how to handle them. Your body may handle some types of GMO fine, while having really bad reactions to others. Your body will treat some types of GMO as toxins, and either expel them as quickly as possible, give you an allergic reaction to them, or store them in fat cells away from your vital organs. GMO foods aren't properly tested on humans. If you decide to consume them, you are the guinea pig.

[amy31416]

Hey Asgardshill and anyone else who was interested--I talked to the manager at the co-op today and you were right about the co-op vegetables/fruits. They take the word of the vendor and because there's no requirements to label anything, that's pretty much the best they can do. They won't accept produce from farmers known to use GM seeds.

She did say that whenever they can, they get produce locally and have actually been to the farms, etc. So, for those of you interested in eating only non-GM foods, yer gonna have to grow it yourself or verify everything yourself right there on the farm.

[xxsicknessxx]

YOu do realize we've been genetically altering plants for 100s of years to produce better varieties.
The only difference is now we are more precise.
I grew up on the farm. All grain seeds were enhanced in some way or another.

Just a couple things about them thats bad. This is not just breeding, they say that but its not true. I know about breeding plants its cool :) these plants are evil. First off there genes the ones they mess with are always on. So if the plant gets loose it overpowers anything local, and its unknown what can happen, just depends on what it crosses with. Also They don't produce seeds, so farmers have to buy them year after year, which is bad for farmers. I also hear that they are worse for the soil.. Now not all plants are. not all gmo crops are bad, but just like anything. Some people are taking advantage, and making dangerous plants for profits. They make the plants live once, and die no seeds so you have to buy more seeds, its unfair and costs farmers more.

[RSLudlum]

Just a couple things about them thats bad. This is not just breeding, they say that but its not true. I know about breeding plants its cool :) these plants are evil. First off there genes the ones they mess with are always on. So if the plant gets loose it overpowers anything local, and its unknown what can happen, just depends on what it crosses with. Also They don't produce seeds, so farmers have to buy them year after year, which is bad for farmers. I also hear that they are worse for the soil.. Now not all plants are. not all gmo crops are bad, but just like anything. Some people are taking advantage, and making dangerous plants for profits. They make the plants live once, and die no seeds so you have to buy more seeds, its unfair and costs farmers more.

The plants grown from the 'terminator seeds' don't produce seeds, but the pollen is still viable, right? So, what happens if the gmo'd pollen fertilizes a 'natural' plant? Does that fertilized plant produce (viable) seeds or not? If not, then the problem of the gmo'd plants taking over is pretty much solved right? I can see some problems arising if the 'natural' plant ferilized by gmo'd pollen actually does produce viable seeds.

[amy31416]

The plants grown from the 'terminator seeds' don't produce seeds, but the pollen is still viable, right? So, what happens if the gmo'd pollen fertilizes a 'natural' plant? Does that fertilized plant produce (viable) seeds or not? If not, then the problem of the gmo'd plants taking over is pretty much solved right? I can see some problems arising if the 'natural' plant ferilized by gmo'd pollen actually does produce viable seeds.

God damn it, you guys are going to make me dust of the ole botany textbook. Not tonight though--tomorrow I'll look it over.

[RSLudlum]

God damn it, you guys are going to make me dust of the ole botany textbook. Not tonight though--tomorrow I'll look it over.


Watch out Mendel, here comes Amy!! :D

[amy31416]

Watch out Mendel, here comes Amy!! :D

Yes, well, I'll have to dust off my monk costume now. It turns out I can't really eke out the answer from what's in my botany book--there's zero about GM in there (too old, argh), I need to update the library.

Are there any GM/terminator peas? That's what Mendel used for fast, relatively simple results.

[Dr.3D]

Hold on a minute.... from what I understand, plants with the terminator gene do produce seeds.
The seeds just not able to be planted and sprout the next season.

This is the entire reason they have plants with the terminator gene. They want the plant to produce seeds for people to eat. They just don't want people to be able to plant those seeds and get another crop from them the next year. They feel this helps them to keep selling seeds to the farmers instead of the farmers bypassing the company selling the seeds.

I do hear reports from farmers who live in Mexico saying they are getting less and less viable seeds from their non terminator crops. Those farmers claim it must be from the cross pollination with the terminator crops north of the border.

I can only question if this is possible or not as I don't really know if it can happen that way.

Can it really be the gene can be passed to non terminator crops and then slowly the crops through years of inbreeding fail to produce viable seeds and end the ability of plants to reproduce viable seed as they have throughout history?

[amy31416]

Hold on a minute.... from what I understand, plants with the terminator gene do produce seeds.
The seeds just not able to be planted and sprout the next season.

This is the entire reason they have plants with the terminator gene. They want the plant to produce seeds for people to eat. They just don't want people to be able to plant those seeds and get another crop from them the next year. They feel this helps them to keep selling seeds to the farmers instead of the farmers bypassing the company selling the seeds.

I do hear reports from farmers who live in Mexico saying they are getting less and less viable seeds from their non terminator crops. Those farmers claim it must be from the cross pollination with the terminator crops north of the border.

I can only question if this is possible or not as I don't really know if it can happen that way.

Can it really be the gene can be passed to non terminator crops and then slowly the crops through years of inbreeding fail to produce viable seeds and end the ability of plants to reproduce viable seed as they have throughout history?

That's what we're trying to figure out here. What we know:

1. Terminator seeds produce a plant that has sterile seeds.
2. Regular seeds produce a plant that has fertile seeds.
3. Would cross pollination between the two plants cause the normal plant to produce entirely or partially sterile seed?

Assuming that the "terminator" quality is a dominant trait, then it seems likely that cross pollination could adversely affect the viability of seeds produced by the normal plant and introduce this gene into subsequent generations of the plant, thus reducing crop yields over time for the farmer using "normal" plants.

I'm no botanist, but I took a botany course quite a while ago and I tinker in it a bit, so I'm not sure what exactly the outcome would be and thought it'd be interesting to do a little experiment ala Mendel. Peas would be possible, but I can't plant corn here in the city, that'd just be silly.

[Agent CSL]

I believe the terminator trait is dominant, but I don't know for sure. I've only watched a couple documentaries. I also was never really that good in biology. :p Ecology, though, I got straight A's.

[sidster]

some GMO seed companies have been charged with implementing non-reproductive/infertile 'programming' into some of it's seed stock, ie if you use some GM'd seed to grow corn, the actual corn seed you're crop produces will be unable to produce another generation. The corn is still edible, but if you are the farmer with the GM'd seeds then you will have to buy more corn seed for next seed instead of keeping some of your crop for seeding.
...
Some GM seed companies have used 'patent rights' against small, non-GM using farmers by claiming these farmers have violated the companies' claim to the genetic code showing up in the farmers' crops, of which obtained the 'genetically modified' code due to wind pollination into the non-GM farmers' fields.

Yep... here is another view point on this and the legal hold Monsanto
like companies have on farmers: Monsanto: The Food Mafia (http://underboss.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/monsanto-growth-by-intimidation-and-bullying/).


If you're scared of GM food, if you don't like it, if you think that it's part of an evil plot to take over your mind, body and soul--then for crying out loud, don't eat it.

It is a good thing in areas where people are starving and lacking in vital nutrients, areas that generally can't grow crops. Golden rice is a GM food that was modified to have a higher content of vitamin A. Yeah, that sucks ass. More vitamin A for poor starving people--evil sons of bitches!

The only thing I don't like is terminator seeds, anyone who produces them or encourages them ain't getting my support.

Wow.. that's a pretty naive. From the Monsanto link above:

Monsanto has the F.D.A’s support and the F.D.A will come after you (another reason why F.D.A. should be abolished). Your milk is probably already tainted with their hormones but pretty soon you will not be able to buy even milk that claims it is free from growth hormones if Monsanto has its way.

Monsanto succeeded in getting Pennsylvania, to begin February 1, 2008, to ban labels claiming their milk products are free from hormones on grounds that it implies the competitor’s milk is somehow unhealthy. But people started writing, emailing, calling the Agriculture secretary of Pennsylvania and he had to reverse the decision.

[Dr.3D]

I found an interesting article written in 2002 here: http://www.law.mq.edu.au/html/MqLJ/vol2pdf/volume2-1.pdf

If you look at pages 12 and 13 you will find a bit of information about the terminator problem.

It is becoming a decision of if there is a right to save seed. Some claim farmers have no right to be able to save seed and should have to buy all of the seed they need.

I can see this all getting out of hand in a hurry.

[amy31416]

Wow.. that's a pretty naive. From the Monsanto link above:

For the record. I hate Monsanto and will not buy anything that they have a hand in.

I'm not naive, I'm sympathetic to those starving and lacking nutrients in other countries where they can't typically grow crops. I am 100% for golden rice, a GM food that was developed to synthesize vitamin A.

http://www.goldenrice.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

I know there's problems with it getting into the right hands, but that's not the fault of the scientists who developed it. If I were starving and had to choose between the two, guess which one I'd pick.

Demonizing things across the board is naive.

[sidster]

Demonizing things across the board is naive.

My comment about naiveness was at your suggestion to not buy
GM products if you don't want to. My point was, and I think someone
else commented (Agent CSL I think) on this as well as you who confirmed,
that it isn't so easy for consumer to figure out what products are for
certain 100% organic.

Also the quote I posted from the blog link shows how these scumpanies
get their lawyers to ban products being marked as "Organic" (please read
that blog post if you haven't yet ... or at least the bit I quoted)

[amy31416]

I found an interesting article written in 2002 here: http://www.law.mq.edu.au/html/MqLJ/vol2pdf/volume2-1.pdf

If you look at pages 12 and 13 you will find a bit of information about the terminator problem.

It is becoming a decision of if there is a right to save seed. Some claim farmers have no right to be able to save seed and should have to buy all of the seed they need.

I can see this all getting out of hand in a hurry.

Great find, thanks for sharing. I wish I could quote from it. I'm rarely in favor of new laws, but terminator technology should be outlawed for the danger it presents. Apparently it does cross-pollinate, which is a very bad thing for the farmers. I read pages 10-14 and there's enough info there to make anyone uncomfortable with the direction this is going.

Then, moving on to the legal issues--farmers not allowed to save seeds? What the hell are these people thinking? This is a drastic change to traditional farming and allows the farmer no control of the quality or properties of the food he grows.

Any company or organization that supports terminator technology should be absolutely shunned and exposed.

If you find any other articles, I'd love to read more.

[Dr.3D]

I have found some evidence of corn being cross pollinated with the terminator gene.
In the last paragraph of page 13 in this article: http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/genetic-engineering-ethics_2.pdf

And is was a Monsanto patent that was at fault.

[amy31416]

I have found some evidence of corn being cross pollinated with the terminator gene.
In the last paragraph of page 13 in this article: http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/genetic-engineering-ethics_2.pdf

And is was a Monsanto patent that was at fault.

Hmmph...not sure if the format is different but page 13, last paragraph is discussing GE farm animals being more resistant to disease and thus not needing megadoses of antibiotics.

**oops, nevermind** I see it.

The farmers should be allowed to sue the shit out of Monsanto for any contamination. I've read that Monsanto has pulled the opposite stunt--suing the farmers who have evidence of their patented terminator crop, even if they didn't plant it.

The good news on page 14 is that the contamination "appears" to be limited to the first generation though.

[Dr.3D]

Hmmph...not sure if the format is different but page 13, last paragraph is discussing GE farm animals being more resistant to disease and thus not needing megadoses of antibiotics.

**oops, nevermind** I see it.

The farmers should be allowed to sue the shit out of Monsanto for any contamination. I've read that Monsanto has pulled the opposite stunt--suing the farmers who have evidence of their patented terminator crop, even if they didn't plant it.

The good news on page 14 is that the contamination "appears" to be limited to the first generation though.

I have to wonder how long those farmers can keep going if people around them are using the terminator crop. Seems like they would be running out of their seed pretty soon. Once they have lost the seed they have been working with for so many years, they will have nothing left but to buy from the seed manufacturers who make seeds that are nowhere as nice as the ones they had been using all their lives and generations of farmers before them.

All of the work that went into breeding up a strain of great tasting corn generation after generation will have been lost.

Looks like the only ones to win in this one are the makers of the modified product. All of the 'natural' seed will be gone after a short time if they keep getting their seed production killed by the crops being planted around them.

[amy31416]

I have to wonder how long those farmers can keep going if people around them are using the terminator crop. Seems like they would be running out of their seed pretty soon. Once they have lost the seed they have been working with for so many years, they will have nothing left but to buy from the seed manufacturers who make seeds that are nowhere as nice as the ones they had been using all their lives and generations of farmers before them.

All of the work that went into breeding up a strain of great tasting corn generation after generation will have been lost.

Looks like the only ones to win in this one are the makers of the modified product. All of the 'natural' seed will be gone after a short time if they keep getting their seed production killed by the crops being planted around them.

I would support an organization of farmers who oppose it and are organizing to sue Monsanto and any other company who cross-contaminates the terminator technology onto any other crops. I wonder if that exists yet?

[Dr.3D]

I would support an organization of farmers who oppose it and are organizing to sue Monsanto and any other company who cross-contaminates the terminator technology onto any other crops. I wonder if that exists yet?

I tend to believe those farmers are so poor from losing their crops they can hardly stay afloat. I don't know how they could even attempt to fight a huge corporation like Monsanto.

[amy31416]

I tend to believe those farmers are so poor from losing their crops they can hardly stay afloat. I don't know how they could even attempt to fight a huge corporation like Monsanto.

Any better suggestions? I wasn't necessarily thinking that poor farmers would fund it, but that there are so many people who hate Monsanto that their legal team would be funded by donations. Hell, you'd probably even be able to find some liberal leaning, big corporation hating lawyers to do it gratis.

[Dr.3D]

Any better suggestions? I wasn't necessarily thinking that poor farmers would fund it, but that there are so many people who hate Monsanto that their legal team would be funded by donations. Hell, you'd probably even be able to find some liberal leaning, big corporation hating lawyers to do it gratis.

I don't have any better suggestion.... I hope somebody is trying to do something about the situation.


The good news on page 14 is that the contamination "appears" to be limited to the first generation though.

Sometimes it only takes one generation of not being able to reproduce for extinction to take place. Notice I didn't say it always takes only one generation. :)

Seems Monsanto could modify the marijuana plant so it had the terminator gene and that would put an end to the war on pot. (oops... maybe I said something I shouldn't have said.)

I don't know how long farmers can keep seed or if they even kept enough seed to replant again. It may be they have already lost the ability to grow the particular strain of corn they had been growing.

I've been reading about how this has been happening in places like India and Africa. Those people are already having a hard time supporting the population they have. Now with our wonderful export of GM seeds to their country, it shouldn't be long before they won't be able to support the food needs of their country. It seems as if all of this is part of a plan to get them dependent on GM seeds and perhaps cause mass starvation in the process.

[amy31416]

Sometimes it only takes one generation of not being able to reproduce for extinction to take place. Notice I didn't say it always takes only one generation. :)


Wait, you wrote that?



Seems Monsanto could modify the marijuana plant so it had the terminator gene and that would put an end to the war on pot. (oops... maybe I said something I shouldn't have said.)


Yeah, they don't need any more ideas.



I don't know how long farmers can keep seed or if they even kept enough seed to replant again. It may be they have already lost the ability to grow the particular strain of corn they had been growing.

I've been reading about how this has been happening in places like India and Africa. Those people are already having a hard time supporting the population they have. Now with our wonderful export of GM seeds to their country, it shouldn't be long before they won't be able to support the food needs of their country. It seems as if all of this is part of a plan to get them dependent on GM seeds and perhaps cause mass starvation in the process.

I think this is where we part ways on our opinions. While I agree that it's a way to get people dependent on their product, I highly doubt that causing mass starvation is part of their plan. The whole point of using these GM seeds in Africa and parts of India was because the environment was not suitable to grow crops in the first place and GM seeds have allowed that. GM seeds with terminator properties is just cruel though, in my opinion. Especially in those countries.

[thuja]

there are not only terminator seeds, but now there are traitor seeds. those are nasty too.

i keep posting these, and you should read them.
www.nongmoproject.org www.non-gmoreport.com also www.gmwatch.eu, which was hacked, and may not be back to full operation yet. get their very educational emails and you will learn a lot.
the only way to feed people is by growing organic, which outproduces gmos and conventional, provides more nutrients and better taste,and does not kill people, animals and wildlife, and which uses natural predators like bats and birds to kill pests. the gmos and chemicals are killing everything.
gmos and nanos are very very dangerous.

[Dr.3D]

I think this is where we part ways on our opinions. While I agree that it's a way to get people dependent on their product, I highly doubt that causing mass starvation is part of their plan. The whole point of using these GM seeds in Africa and parts of India was because the environment was not suitable to grow crops in the first place and GM seeds have allowed that. GM seeds with terminator properties is just cruel though, in my opinion. Especially in those countries.

So we must part ways as to opinion because I suggested motives are not always as they seem? History is replete with such examples. Just look at how Spain sent missionaries to Mexico under the guise of 'spreading the Christian way' only to see how they used it to gain control of the people in that country.

I tend to look at the money. When I see money to be made, and somebody claiming to be doing something out of the goodness of their heart for another people, I tend to look at the money as the motive and not goodness of any heart. It usually all boils down to money. While it may not be part of the plan to starve people, the starvation may in fact be a byproduct of their plan to make some money and gain control. Notice how I said perhaps when I mentioned starvation. I did not imply the motive was starvation, but instead the plan may cause it regardless of intent.

[Ninja Homer]

The farmers should be allowed to sue the shit out of Monsanto for any contamination. I've read that Monsanto has pulled the opposite stunt--suing the farmers who have evidence of their patented terminator crop, even if they didn't plant it.

That's just it... It takes a lot for a farm to be Certified Organic, and all it takes is for a little GMO seed to blow into their crops, and they lose their certification. If they try to sue Monsanto for contaminating their crops, then Monsanto turns around and sues them for patent infringement. Monsanto usually wins, because they have the money to pay for good lawyers and can just outlast almost any farmer in an expensive court battle.

This brings up some SERIOUS issues about patents on life. Should life be patentable? Should patents on life have the same laws as other patents? If they just have a patent on 1 gene, does that mean they own the rights to the whole plant? Patent rights on life carry huge responsibilities... what needs to be done to make sure people with these patents are being responsible?

Here's a farmer who was successful against Monsanto in court:
http://www.percyschmeiser.com/

An article about a lawsuit by Canadian organic farmers against Monsanto:
http://www.mindfully.org/GE/GE4/Monsanto-Sued-By-Farmers11jan02.htm

[amy31416]

That's just it... It takes a lot for a farm to be Certified Organic, and all it takes is for a little GMO seed to blow into their crops, and they lose their certification. If they try to sue Monsanto for contaminating their crops, then Monsanto turns around and sues them for patent infringement. Monsanto usually wins, because they have the money to pay for good lawyers and can just outlast almost any farmer in an expensive court battle.

This brings up some SERIOUS issues about patents on life. Should life be patentable? Should patents on life have the same laws as other patents? If they just have a patent on 1 gene, does that mean they own the rights to the whole plant? Patent rights on life carry huge responsibilities... what needs to be done to make sure people with these patents are being responsible?

Here's a farmer who was successful against Monsanto in court:
http://www.percyschmeiser.com/

An article about a lawsuit by Canadian organic farmers against Monsanto:
http://www.mindfully.org/GE/GE4/Monsanto-Sued-By-Farmers11jan02.htm

That's why these small-time farmers, even those who haven't had it happen to them (yet) need to band together against companies like Monsanto. They'll have a lot of support from the general public if they publicize first. This, first and foremost needs to be publicized to the mainstream.

Maybe a group like anonymous might consider a hiatus from Scientology for a new target such as Monsanto, that would be a start to get the information out.

[torchbearer]

That's why these small-time farmers, even those who haven't had it happen to them (yet) need to band together against companies like Monsanto. They'll have a lot of support from the general public if they publicize first. This, first and foremost needs to be publicized to the mainstream.

Maybe a group like anonymous might consider a hiatus from Scientology for a new target such as Monsanto, that would be a start to get the information out.

The small farmer is dead in Louisiana.
Corporate farms recieved all the gov. subsidies during the drought.
Like Trent Lott, who doesn't even farm.

We don't farm anymore, haven't for about 10 years.
What is going to happen to america when all of their small farmers are gone?
Government intervention destroyed farming in this state, and sometimes i think its purposeful.

[amy31416]

The small farmer is dead in Louisiana.
Corporate farms recieved all the gov. subsidies during the drought.
Like Trent Lott, who doesn't even farm.

We don't farm anymore, haven't for about 10 years.
What is going to happen to america when all of their small farmers are gone?
Government intervention destroyed farming in this state, and sometimes i think its purposeful.

All the more reason to do something about this. I'm not schooled in the ways of farming, the laws, etc., but we all have a stake in the food supply.

[sidster]

The small farmer is dead in Louisiana.
Corporate farms recieved all the gov. subsidies during the drought.
Like Trent Lott, who doesn't even farm.

We don't farm anymore, haven't for about 10 years.
What is going to happen to america when all of their small farmers are gone?
Government intervention destroyed farming in this state, and sometimes i think its purposeful.

That's just sad to read.


All the more reason to do something about this. I'm not schooled in the ways of farming, the laws, etc., but we all have a stake in the food supply.

I agree. What do we do? How do we start? Is The Revolution the way?
..or at least a good starting point? How long would it take us to revert all
the damage that has been done over the past century or more?

[amy31416]

I agree. What do we do? How do we start? Is The Revolution the way?
..or at least a good starting point? How long would it take us to revert all
the damage that has been done over the past century or more?

Not entirely sure, but I think that we would start here, and perhaps start raising awareness via YouTube etc. First things first, it'd be good to see if there's actually a farming union/committee/group that already exists who's concerned about this. There are plenty of people who are already aware of and against Monsanto.

Just have to reiterate though, I'm okay with many of the GM foods out there being used for good purposes. I'm against Monsanto given their business strategies, dishonesty and strong-armed tactics. I'm 100% against terminator technology, and it appears that Monsanto is the sole owner of that.

Also, push forward the "think globally, act locally" thing. Support local organic farmers who are doing the right thing. Join the local co-op, things like that.

[thuja]

Not entirely sure, but I think that we would start here, and perhaps start raising awareness via YouTube etc. First things first, it'd be good to see if there's actually a farming union/committee/group that already exists who's concerned about this. There are plenty of people who are already aware of and against Monsanto.

Just have to reiterate though, I'm okay with many of the GM foods out there being used for good purposes. I'm against Monsanto given their business strategies, dishonesty and strong-armed tactics. I'm 100% against terminator technology, and it appears that Monsanto is the sole owner of that.

Also, push forward the "think globally, act locally" thing. Support local organic farmers who are doing the right thing. Join the local co-op, things like that.
its great that you support organics.
organic crops are polyculture, and that is in tune with nature.the monoculture crops are not natural, and for one thing, do not support natural predators for pests, so that allows chemical pesticides to be used. those chemicals kill natural predators and the bees.
consider the dangers in nano technology as well, as it ties in, and can be used in pesticides. take a look at www.foe.org and its australian site, and look at www.etcgroup.org for more on the dangers of nanos.

if people wish to support organic, first buy it and only it, and that way more land will be devoted to it. there are organic groups to support, like marinorganic.org, for example. they can tell you which other things to support. buy at markets too.
the farmers do need our support in fending off the corporations who wish to control the food supply and more.
as i poste earlier, there are ways to detect gmos, and supporting such organizations is useful. www.nongmoproject.org

[SeanEdwards]

The story of golden rice sums up the enviro-nuts pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

This engineered strain of rice could have saved millions of lives and prevented hundreds of thousands of cases of blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency every year. The developers of the rice voluntarily agreed to forgo their intellectual property rights in order to make the rice available to impoverished people as a humanitarian gesture.

But it never happened, because the anti-GM luddites had a coniption fit. These assholes are blocking use of a food that could improve millions of lives, because of some nebulous, undefined fear of "franken-foods". They don't have any scientific evidence to support their fear of golden rice, but they're willing to condemn millions of third world children to preventable blindness regardless.

[thuja]

The story of golden rice sums up the enviro-nuts pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

This engineered strain of rice could have saved millions of lives and prevented hundreds of thousands of cases of blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency every year. The developers of the rice voluntarily agreed to forgo their intellectual property rights in order to make the rice available to impoverished people as a humanitarian gesture.

But it never happened, because the anti-GM luddites had a coniption fit. These assholes are blocking use of a food that could improve millions of lives, because of some nebulous, undefined fear of "franken-foods". They don't have any scientific evidence to support their fear of golden rice, but they're willing to condemn millions of third world children to preventable blindness regardless.
there seems little hope that some people will ever do any proper research, wishing to remain forever misinformed.
i wonder if some scientists, once they learn the truth about their discoveries results, ever just jump off a bridge or something.

[thuja]

The story of golden rice sums up the enviro-nuts pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

This engineered strain of rice could have saved millions of lives and prevented hundreds of thousands of cases of blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency every year. The developers of the rice voluntarily agreed to forgo their intellectual property rights in order to make the rice available to impoverished people as a humanitarian gesture.

But it never happened, because the anti-GM luddites had a coniption fit. These assholes are blocking use of a food that could improve millions of lives, because of some nebulous, undefined fear of "franken-foods". They don't have any scientific evidence to support their fear of golden rice, but they're willing to condemn millions of third world children to preventable blindness regardless.
your concern for blind third world children is just perfect for the poorwashing campaign.

[amy31416]

The story of golden rice sums up the enviro-nuts pretty well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

This engineered strain of rice could have saved millions of lives and prevented hundreds of thousands of cases of blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency every year. The developers of the rice voluntarily agreed to forgo their intellectual property rights in order to make the rice available to impoverished people as a humanitarian gesture.

But it never happened, because the anti-GM luddites had a coniption fit. These assholes are blocking use of a food that could improve millions of lives, because of some nebulous, undefined fear of "franken-foods". They don't have any scientific evidence to support their fear of golden rice, but they're willing to condemn millions of third world children to preventable blindness regardless.

I agree completely--let the people decide for themselves. Greenpeace is simply against GM foods across the board with no real thought put into it. It's just cruel to not give starving people all the options available to them.

I would actually love to use this rice over plain white rice, which has very little nutritive value.

[thuja]

actually, greenpeace have put LOTS of careful thought and research into the issue of gm, and that's why they oppose it. there really are no groups opposing these things just on principle. no one can just waste time like that .

[amy31416]

actually, greenpeace have put LOTS of careful thought and research into the issue of gm, and that's why they oppose it. there really are no groups opposing these things just on principle. no one can just waste time like that .

I don't have any problem with people disliking GM foods, I think it should be a personal choice. I do have a problem with people taking that choice away from others.

[thuja]

I don't have any problem with people disliking GM foods, I think it should be a personal choice. I do have a problem with people taking that choice away from others.
the gm crops destroy other things besides human's health, it is dangerous to the environment, and they pollute other valuable crops, so as humans, it would be kinder and wiser to avoid them altogether. also that corporation mentioned so often and its equally bad friends are the owners of this technology, never farmers or other people. those corporations are greenwashing and poorwashing and actually forcing their technology on everyone else.
it would be like all people having personal choice to have nuclear weapons.

[amy31416]

the gm crops destroy other things besides human's health, it is dangerous to the environment, and they pollute other valuable crops, so as humans, it would be kinder and wiser to avoid them altogether. also that corporation mentioned so often and its equally bad friends are the owners of this technology, never farmers or other people. those corporations are greenwashing and poorwashing and actually forcing their technology on everyone else.
it would be like all people having personal choice to have nuclear weapons.

I disagree.

As far as nuclear weapons go, nuclear technology is also a source of energy and is not inherently bad. It's what people do with it that is good or bad. Same with GM technology--it can be good or bad. If I were starving, GM foods would be damned good.

[SeanEdwards]

the gm crops destroy other things besides human's health, it is dangerous to the environment, and they pollute other valuable crops, so as humans, it would be kinder and wiser to avoid them altogether. also that corporation mentioned so often and its equally bad friends are the owners of this technology, never farmers or other people. those corporations are greenwashing and poorwashing and actually forcing their technology on everyone else.
it would be like all people having personal choice to have nuclear weapons.

Random chance has been performing GM on all life forms on planet earth for as long as life has existed. Why do you find human directed GM more scary than the random GM that occurs naturally every day?

[thuja]

i trust nature, not overeager humans in search of wealth at my expense, and nature's expense.
also hybridizing is not always genetic engineering. hybridizing plants and animals has been happening naturally, and by human effort for ages.

[SeanEdwards]

i trust nature, not overeager humans in search of wealth at my expense, and nature's expense.
also hybridizing is not always genetic engineering. hybridizing plants and animals has been happening naturally, and by human effort for ages.

Nature brought us bubonic plague, aids, avian flu, SARS, cancer, birth defects, and sharks.

You think some weenie in a lab coat is going to beat that list?

[amy31416]

Nature brought us bubonic plague, aids, avian flu, SARS, cancer, birth defects, and sharks.

You think some weenie in a lab coat is going to beat that list?

Hey now, don't try me sister.