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Printo
05-14-2008, 01:21 PM
http://www.gop.com/about/imarepublicanbecause.htm

I thought I'd post this because it is pretty ironic given the past 7 years. Enjoy, mock, discuss. :D

Republican Principles

I'm a Republican Because...

I BELIEVE the strength of our nation lies with the individual and that each personís dignity, freedom, ability and responsibility must be honored.

I BELIEVE in equal rights, equal justice and equal opportunity for all, regardless of race, creed, sex, age or disability.

I BELIEVE free enterprise and encouraging individual initiative have brought this nation opportunity, economic growth and prosperity.

I BELIEVE government must practice fiscal responsibility and allow individuals to keep more of the money they earn.

I BELIEVE the proper role of government is to provide for the people only those critical functions that cannot be performed by individuals or private organizations, and that the best government is that which governs least.

I BELIEVE the most effective, responsible and responsive government is government closest to the people.

I BELIEVE Americans must retain the principles that have made us strong while developing new and innovative ideas to meet the challenges of changing times.

I BELIEVE Americans value and should preserve our national strength and pride while working to extend peace, freedom and human rights throughout the world.

FINALLY, I believe the Republican Party is the best vehicle for translating these ideals into positive and successful principles of government.

Omnis
05-14-2008, 02:32 PM
I believe government must practice fiscal responsibility and allow individuals to keep ALL of the money they earn.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 02:39 PM
I voted for George Bush.

Not.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 02:41 PM
I believe government must practice fiscal responsibility and allow individuals to keep ALL of the money they earn.You must be joking.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 02:43 PM
I am a Republican...



Cause I'm a Wanker.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Nice platform. but the Party doesn't even follow this platform lol I'd probably be a Republican if they were like this.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:23 PM
Nice platform. but the Party doesn't even follow this platform lol I'd probably be a Republican if they were like this.Why not get stuck into the Democrats?

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 03:38 PM
Why not get stuck into the Democrats?

What are you telling me? I'm mostly a loyal LP member. I plan to purchase a lifetime membership. I would never purchase a membership in the GOP unless they changes their ways.

Democratic platform is not libertarian at all. Well, maybe a little on the civil liberties stuff. You know, they adopted most of their platform from the communist and socialist parties.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:42 PM
What are you telling me? I'm mostly a loyal LP member. I plan to purchase a lifetime membership. I would never purchase a membership in the GOP unless they changes their ways.

Democratic platform is not libertarian at all. Well, maybe a little on the civil liberties stuff. You know, they adopted most of their platform from the communist and socialist parties.
Que sera sera...

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:48 PM
Whatever will be will be...

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 03:48 PM
Que sera sera...

What are you trying to say? Most of their planks come right from the socialists. Universal healthcare is not a bad idea when you look at the crap we have now, I'll admit that much. But if we want to induldge in that we should do so without increasing spending. Am I a socialist? No. I just don't want to be an idealist that rejects everything but ideoloical purity on every issue. But I think that doctors should not be imprisoned in government run hospitals and not allowed to practice their profession PRIVATELY. That and wasteful spending is my "beef" with universal healthcare.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:49 PM
The futures not ours to see.

Repeat verse...

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:50 PM
What are you trying to say? Most of their planks come right from the socialists. Universal healthcare is not a bad idea when you look at the crap we have now, I'll admit that much. But if we want to induldge in that we should do so without increasing spending. Am I a socialist? No. I just don't want to be an idealist that rejects everything but ideoloical purity on every issue.I have free health. I'm relaxed.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 03:51 PM
What are you telling me? I'm mostly a loyal LP member. I plan to purchase a lifetime membership. I would never purchase a membership in the GOP unless they changes their ways.

Democratic platform is not libertarian at all. Well, maybe a little on the civil liberties stuff. You know, they adopted most of their platform from the communist and socialist parties.


Whoops, thanks for reminding me to renew.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:51 PM
I am not a socialist.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 03:52 PM
I am not a socialist.

Congratulations, and thanks.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 03:55 PM
I have free health. I'm relaxed.

I'm just irritated with the elitist system. We're not going in the direction of free market healthcare. So the best we can do is expand medicare and cut back on spending elsewhere, while we deregulate the medical industry and allow doctors to practice privately as an alternative for people and allow small businesses entry into the pharmaceutical industry. I guess I'm a low-tax liberal, Ed Clark FTW

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 03:59 PM
A society that does not provide health care for all it's citizens is a failure.

I'm not telling you how to do it.

But..

Do it!

Kludge
05-14-2008, 04:01 PM
A society that does not provide health care for all it's citizens is a failure.

I'm not telling you how to do it.

But..

Do it!

A citizen that does not EARN healthcare (in a free market...) is a failure.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:01 PM
I'm just irritated with the elitist system. We're not going in the direction of free market healthcare. So the best we can do is expand medicare and cut back on spending elsewhere, while we deregulate the medical industry and allow doctors to practice privately as an alternative for people and allow small businesses entry into the pharmaceutical industry. I guess I'm a low-tax liberal, Ed Clark FTW

The richest country in the world cannot achieve what most others can.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:01 PM
A society that does not provide health care for all it's citizens is a failure.

I'm not telling you how to do it.

But..

Do it!

I don't think it should. Free market healthcare is ideal but we aren't heading in that direction. Corporatism or socialized. That's the direction nowadays. It's just sickening how many GOP people think that corporate catering of healthcare is free market healthcare. uh, no.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 04:02 PM
The richest country in the world cannot achieve what most others can.

IIRC, we are the poorest country, with debt that exceeds any other.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:02 PM
A citizen that does not EARN healthcare (in a free market...) is a failure.
Welcome to Romania.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:02 PM
IIRC, we are the poorest country, with debt that exceeds any other.

but we're not a third world country.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:03 PM
IIRC, we are the poorest country, with debt that exceeds any other.I was cutting you some slack.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:04 PM
I'm thinking maybe we can compromise. Have a government option while we deregulate the healthcare industry and slowly phase it in over time.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 04:04 PM
Welcome to Romania.

I'm not catching the reference...

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:06 PM
I'm not catching the reference...That's not my problem.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 04:06 PM
That's not my problem.

It is if you're intending to communicate an idea.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:08 PM
It is if you're intending to communicate an idea.Go read a book... Travel... Or do something.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:11 PM
my thoughts: free market healthcare is ideal. agreed. But do the masses understand this? No. And I don't know if they ever will. So what are the directions we are heading in? Corporatism. That's what most GOP are offering. I also think some Democrats are offering this by letting private hospitals benefit from universal healthcare, I don't think that's right because there should always be some kind of entry available to the "little guy" into any industry. I think maybe a purely government option for the people to receive standard healthcare would be an improvement. Not ideal. but an improvement to what we have now where people either have insurance or they can get sick and...get screwed by the system. I don't think that's free market healthcare. I think that people should be able to negotiate with doctors and come up with private payment agreements. I also believe that competition among healthcare professionals is a good thing.

I believe in achieving this without raising taxes or spending. We should make cuts in wasteful spending.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:16 PM
my thoughts: free market healthcare is ideal. agreed. But do the masses understand this? No. And I don't know if they ever will. So what are the directions we are heading in? Corporatism. That's what most GOP are offering. I also think some Democrats are offering this by letting private hospitals benefit from universal healthcare, I don't think that's right because there should always be some kind of entry available to the "little guy" into any industry. I think maybe a purely government option for the people to receive standard healthcare would be an improvement. Not ideal. but an improvement to what we have now where people either have insurance or they can get sick and...get screwed by the system. I don't think that's free market healthcare. I think that people should be able to negotiate with doctors and come up with private payment agreements. I also believe that competition among healthcare professionals is a good thing. hmm was going to say something else but I forget ha.I know you are a thoughtful man.

So pull the troops out of Europe, and give everyone health.

Some may call that socialism... I call it prioritizing.

Holy Garbanzo Beans!

What if you pulled out of Iraq?

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:19 PM
I know you are a thoughtful man.

So pull the troops out of Europe, and give everyone health.

Some may call that socialism... I call it prioritizing.

Holy Garbanzo Beans!

What if you pulled out of Iraq?

lol. I call it being realistic. I just don't see how we can go from here to free market healthcare. That would mean a complete ousting of our current government. So I think maybe we should compromise in some ways while remaining true to our libertarian values of making cuts. We should definitely cut in military spending. Maybe offer some tax credits to charities that offer healthcare.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:21 PM
lol. I call it being realistic. I just don't see how we can go from here to free market healthcare. That would mean a complete ousting of our current government. So I think maybe we should compromise in some ways while remaining true to our libertarian values of making cuts. We should definitely cut in military spending.Have you forgotten Ron Paul?

What was his message?

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:25 PM
lol. I call it being realistic. I just don't see how we can go from here to free market healthcare. That would mean a complete ousting of our current government. So I think maybe we should compromise in some ways while remaining true to our libertarian values of making cuts. We should definitely cut in military spending. Maybe offer some tax credits to charities that offer healthcare.There's more than one way to skin a cat.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:26 PM
Have you forgotten Ron Paul?

What was his message?

Nope. I'm not Ron Paul. I like much of what he says. I think we should sacrifice some principle in order to get things done. We should be the "third way" for the American people. Not socialistic. Not corporate catering. But we should be able getting something done, not just preaching contrarian views without anything to show for it. Anyway, that's just what I think. I have known people with cancer without insurance and they couldn't attain treatment. I think the system hurts the poor and middle class, but doin nothing but trying to "educate" free market principles solves nothing because we will never get what we want..maybe one day. So let's cut the bullshit and expand things that do help the people.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:27 PM
During the meantime...

Health care is skinning you.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Nope. I'm not Ron Paul. I like much of what he says. I think we should sacrifice some principle in order to get things done. We should be the "third way" for the American people. Not socialistic. Not corporate catering. But we should be able getting something done, not just preaching contrarian views without anything to show for it. Anyway, that's just what I think. I have known people with cancer without insurance and they couldn't attain treatment. I think the system hurts the poor and middle class, but doin nothing but trying to "educate" free market principles solves nothing because we will never get what we want..maybe one day. So let's cut the bullshit and expand things that do help the people.

Choose a methodology that works.

No reason to continue getting shafted.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:30 PM
During the meantime...

Health care is skinning you.

I know that universal healthcare can be shit after the first generation that's why I think of it as a temporary thing to hold people over while we do deregulate the healthcare industry. A purely government option without cutting spending or raising taxes. No interference in the economy like most Democrats propose. I think it would involve reforming medicare. But yeah, there's more than one way to skin a cat :p

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:34 PM
I know that universal healthcare can be shit after the first generation that's why I think of it as a temporary thing to hold people over while we do deregulate the healthcare industry. A purely government option without cutting spending or raising taxes. No interference in the economy like most Democrats propose. I think it would involve reforming medicare. But yeah, there's more than one way to skin a cat :pPriorities my man.

Stay rich,young, and healthy.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 04:37 PM
Priorities my man.

Stay rich,young, and healthy.

lol. I just don't see the harm in reform. And I'm not running for office so I guess my opinion doesn't matter. I'm all for free market healthcare though. I know that it doesn't lead to corporatism like most socialists and misinformed people will have you believe.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 04:40 PM
lol. I just don't see the harm in reform. And I'm not running for office so I guess my opinion doesn't matter. I'm all for free market healthcare though. I know that it doesn't lead to corporatism like most socialists and misinformed people will have you believe.
America should choose the shoe that fits.

And kick the pharmas and medicals up the ass!

Jean
05-14-2008, 04:58 PM
Which part of the constitution was the universal health care covered in? I forget.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 05:02 PM
Which part of the constitution was the universal health care covered in? I forget.

Maybe where it says GENERAL WELFARE. But that's debatable. I don't revolve my life around the Constitution. I think that we should use it as guidance.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 05:06 PM
Which part of the constitution was the universal health care covered in? I forget.

If you are comfortable with health care for those who can afford it.

Bueno!

Forget the rest.

Weak fucks.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 05:07 PM
If you are comfortable with health care for those who can afford it.

Bueno!

Forget the rest.

Weak fucks.

Were we in a free market, that would be my sentiment. You are not entitled to my money. You are not entitled to live beyond your natural means, it is a luxury.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 05:10 PM
Were we in a free market, that would be my sentiment. You are not entitled to my money. You are not entitled to live beyond your natural means, it is a luxury.

I agree with that. I think if we can help the people without raising taxes or spending, then we should. cut, cut, reform. come up with some solutions that the masses will support

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 06:04 PM
Were we in a free market, that would be my sentiment. You are not entitled to my money. You are not entitled to live beyond your natural means, it is a luxury.

My brother, was was diagnosed with myaloid leukemia 8 years ago.

He is an accountant for the government, and had full medical. My father moved from Australia and lived with him for a year in The "City of Hope" hospital. My father was the closest match for bone marrow.

My bro was in the "bubble room", on his last legs, when this experimental drug called Gleevac became known. It saved his life.

His insurance company covered the medication for 3 months. At that time the drug cost 6ooo.oo per week. Our family spent over 120,000 on medication to keep him alive.

We were approved by the Australian government to have him continue on his medicine and hospitilization over here.

My bro is healthy and working in Albuquerque.

Every life is precious.

My brother

Kludge
05-14-2008, 06:10 PM
My brother, was was diagnosed with myaloid leukemia 8 years ago.

He is an accountant for the government, and had full medical. My father moved from Australia and lived with him for a year in The "City of Hope" hospital. My father was the closest match for bone marrow.

My bro was in the "bubble room", on his last legs, when this experimental drug called Gleevac became known. It saved his life.

His insurance company covered the medication for 3 months. At that time the drug cost 6ooo.oo per week. Our family spent over 120,000 on medication to keep him alive.

We were approved by the Australian government to have him continue on his medicine and hospitilization over here.

My bro is healthy and working in Albuquerque.

Every life is precious.

My brother

I stand by my previous statement. There is not one free market in the entire world...

I admit, it's difficult to justify my principles when faced with such terrible (or arguably good) stories such as yours - and I am very sorry that you and your family had to go through that - but that is why it's called heartless libertarianism. It's moral, not kind.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 06:16 PM
I stand by my previous statement. There is not one free market in the entire world...

I admit, it's difficult to justify my principles when faced with such terrible (or arguably good) stories such as yours - and I am very sorry that you and your family had to go through that - but that is why it's called heartless libertarianism. It's moral, not kind.
The Australian government probably spent close to 250,000 looking after my brother.

Do you have a brother or sister?

Kludge
05-14-2008, 06:20 PM
The Australian government probably spent close to 250,000 looking after my brother.

Do you have a brother or sister?

No, but I have close family. They are worth a value to be determined. I would not give all I own to save one close family member if I or immediate family would be affected to a degree worse then the family member who is sick.

This was always a big discussion point whenever I was involved in a discussion regarding dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. What makes American lives more valuable then those held by the Japanese?

torchbearer
05-14-2008, 06:23 PM
The Australian government probably spent close to 250,000 looking after my brother.

Do you have a brother or sister?


The children's hospital of new orleans.
and I'm sure others, or funded by private charitable donations.
Your assumption is that no one will care about the poor.
And that is not the case.
Why?
Celebs.
They get a poor man's disease, then they bring focus to it.
Montel williams is heading up a private way to bring free medicine to people who need it.
http://www.pparx.com
I have used this program before. It is easy to use and anyone who can't afford their chronic medications can get them for free without government aid.

You only see the system you are in... you cannot imagine the system we are talking about.
People who are so prosperous, they can be Santa Claus.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 06:29 PM
The children's hospital of new orleans.
and I'm sure others, or funded by private charitable donations.
Your assumption is that no one will care about the poor.
And that is not the case.
Why?
Celebs.
They get a poor man's disease, then they bring focus to it.
Montel williams is heading up a private way to bring free medicine to people who need it.
http://www.pparx.com
I have used this program before. It is easy to use and anyone who can't afford their chronic medications can get them for free without government aid.

You only see the system you are in... you cannot imagine the system we are talking about.
People who are so prosperous, they can be Santa Claus.

I'm not trying to get the sympathy vote.

That post brought up memories.

You can't put a price on life.

The Santa Claus analogy doesn't do much for me.

Christianalwaysg124RP
05-14-2008, 06:36 PM
It all depends on the base your are working with. There are constitutionalists and minarchist libertarians in the Republican party,Democrat party, Libertarain party, Green party, Constitution party and independent party.(most being the Libertarian party) So it all depends on the base you are working with. Every party has it's positive constitutional policies, but of course, as seen in this decade, other things need (good) change.

Some people, like Ron Paul, are staying in the Republican party to go back to the the libertarian, constitutional path of the former Republican platform.(Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater, Robert Taft) Some people are staying in independant or third parties so that people who are angry with their party can find a constitutional alternative.

libertarian minarchist come in different parties working with different bases, but all working toward the same belief in limited,restricted and small government.

Omphfullas Zamboni
05-14-2008, 07:18 PM
Hi,

From a advertising perspective, it is probably better to promote free-market health care not as the, "killing sick cancer patients as quickly as possible, so as to unburden the healthy taxpayer" alternative. Instead, let us list advantages for why the free market would be beneficial to those who may become unhealthy.

Are there any? I presume the market would drive costs down to an affordable level, for one...can anyone think of other free-market benefits, to the patient?

Regards,
Omphfullas Zamboni

torchbearer
05-14-2008, 07:29 PM
I'm not trying to get the sympathy vote.

That post brought up memories.

You can't put a price on life.

The Santa Claus analogy doesn't do much for me.

If you are my friend, and your family member is in trouble.
All you have to do is ask, and we will do what it takes to help out our own.
If you come to my house and try to take money from me by force, I will put lead into your head.
Get the difference?
Voluntary Charity.
Or-
theft through government force.

Don't steal from me. I won't steal from you.
You need help, all you have to do is ask.
That is respect.

slacker921
05-14-2008, 07:42 PM
why did Ozwest try to hijack this thread? Spend a few minutes reading back through the thread and you'll see what I mean.

I find the list of GOP principles kind of sad because the politicians running as Republicans promise these things and yet once in office uphold NONE of them. The GOP should be angry with the incumbents for not living up to the principles - and yet the GOP does the exact opposite.

What happened Saturday, a 3rd Republican incumbent knocked out of his seat by a Democrat, should be waking the GOP and getting them back to these principles.

torchbearer
05-14-2008, 07:48 PM
why did Ozwest try to hijack this thread? Spend a few minutes reading back through the thread and you'll see what I mean.

I find the list of GOP principles kind of sad because the politicians running as Republicans promise these things and yet once in office uphold NONE of them. The GOP should be angry with the incumbents for not living up to the principles - and yet the GOP does the exact opposite.

What happened Saturday, a 3rd Republican incumbent knocked out of his seat by a Democrat, should be waking the GOP and getting them back to these principles.

The whole roof needs to come down on the neocons in 2008.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 08:05 PM
If you are my friend, and your family member is in trouble.
All you have to do is ask, and we will do what it takes to help out our own.
If you come to my house and try to take money from me by force, I will put lead into your head.
Get the difference?
Voluntary Charity.
Or-
theft through government force.

Don't steal from me. I won't steal from you.
You need help, all you have to do is ask.
That is respect.


I am willing to contribute my hard-earned (towards a efficient and well run system) in order to help my fellow countrymen in their hour of need, and I agree to achieve this with the agreed contributions of my fellow countrymen.

Get the difference?

Cheap medicine and equal healthcare is a good thing.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 08:07 PM
You have to go on what the masses think. Until we properly educate most active voters that free market principles are correct, we should take a more libertarian-populist stance on these key issues. And that's just getting elected. Free market repeals of regulation will not go down well in Washington, that's why I proposed cuts and reforms instead of just cut..cut..cut

liberteebell
05-14-2008, 08:08 PM
The Australian government probably spent close to 250,000 looking after my brother.

Do you have a brother or sister?

I'm glad your brother is ok and I agree that every life if precious BUT:

I see that the bastardization of the language is alive and well other places in the world:

Free Health Care--there is no such thing as "free". Someone has to pay for it.

The government probably spent... Since the government produces absolutely nothing, how is it that the government pays for health care? That's right! It takes money from people by force and gives it to someone else.

The healthcare system in the US is hosed up because of the government being involved in it. The last thing I want is more government intervention.

I am old enough to remember when government wasn't involved in health care and it was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much less expensive and your doc actually got to know you. Some even made house calls; if you were sick during off hours, you could call in and get an actual diagnosis and meds if needed.

Health care would not be out of reach for the average US citizen if it weren't for the fact that the government makes all these arbitrary rules about insurance and how it's tied to employment and so on (I could write a book...). Just recently, I became uninsured. I asked my doc for a discount and she told me that she could do a regular visit for $40.00 if it weren't for insurance companies and government rules and regs and the outrageous overhead she has to have to keep up. With all that, a visit costs $120.00. I got to pay $78.00.

Just try buying insurance independently; you'll get a real taste for all the rules and regs that government has stuck us with.

If I am ill, I am only allowed to choose from medications approved by the government. For example, if I want to try marijuana, I can't. But I can go to the doc and get prescribed all sorts of mind-altering medications, many way more dangerous and addictive than mj, as long as I'm either insured or can afford the outrageous costs. Ooooops! That is, except if I want pain pills and then the government decides how much pain pills I'm allowed to have and if I ask for more, they think I'm either an addict or I'm selling them on the street.

The bottom line is that I own my body and I want to decide what happens to it. I'm smart enough to know that if I have a broken arm, I need to see an orthopedic doc, not my primary care physician to get permission to have my broken arm looked at.

When it comes to health care, I am pro-choice, pro-free market.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 08:18 PM
liberteebell,

My standard of living is higher than yours.

I get almost free drugs, and free medical.

We have a pretty good system.

No drug companies screwing us, because the government negotiates the best deal.

Practitoners are limited to the amount they can charge. They still drive Mercs.

liberteebell
05-14-2008, 08:25 PM
There is nothing free about it----SOMEONE is paying for it. What percent of your income does your government take by force? And I'm simply not a socialist.

Besides, I don't need Big Brother to negotiate what drugs I can take (or not) and/or their price.

The standard of living in the US would go up immensely if the government followed the rule of law and protected life, liberty and property instead of sticking its far reaching tentacles into every aspect of our lives and stealing the fruits of our labor to pay for it.

JosephTheLibertarian
05-14-2008, 08:25 PM
liberteebell,

My standard of living is higher than yours.

I get almost free drugs, and free medical.

We have a pretty good system.

No drug companies screwing us, because the government negotiates the best deal.

Practitoners are limited to the amount they can charge. They still drive Mercs.

but are doctors still free to start their own businesses as an alternative to the government program?

rockandrollsouls
05-14-2008, 08:31 PM
You can be in my party and you don't need to purchase anything. The awesome party. We're awesome.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 08:35 PM
There is nothing free about it----SOMEONE is paying for it. What percent of your income does your government take by force? And I'm simply not a socialist.

Besides, I don't need Big Brother to negotiate what drugs I can take (or not) and/or their price.

The standard of living in the US would go up immensely if the government followed the rule of law and protected life, liberty and property instead of sticking its far reaching tentacles into every aspect of our lives and stealing the fruits of our labor to pay for it.


I agree, nothing is for free.

We, as taxpayers agree with this system.

And it works.

I may choose any drug available, as long as it is prescribed.

It may not work in the States. Design your own system.

We're a population of 20 million.

Maybe use a similar system state by state.

Power of the purse.

Kludge
05-14-2008, 08:37 PM
I agree, nothing is for free.

We, as taxpayers agree with this system.

And it works.

I may choose any drug available, as long as it is prescribed.

It may not work in the States. Design your own system.

We're a population of 20 million.

Maybe use a similar system state by state.

Power of the purse.

If 100% of the population does not approve of anything that has been funded with their money, theft has taken place.

satchelmcqueen
05-14-2008, 08:40 PM
Better yet... i am voting republican because thats what Ron paul is running as. nuff said!!

its not about the party, but the man.

majinkoola
05-14-2008, 08:41 PM
I agree, nothing is for free.

We, as taxpayers agree with this system.

And it works.

I may choose any drug available, as long as it is prescribed.

It may not work in the States. Design your own system.

We're a population of 20 million.

Maybe use a similar system state by state.

Power of the purse.

What happens when someone doesn't pay their income taxes? They get put in jail. Through the use of guns. So your position is that you want the gov't to draw guns on someone because they didn't pay for someone else's health care.

Yet, if you are here, I imagine you are against our gov't drawing guns against people overseas for their much worse actions.

Seems hypocritical to me.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 08:46 PM
but are doctors still free to start their own businesses as an alternative to the government program?Doctors operate their practices privately, the same as the States.

The difference is that any amount charged above prescribed rates is payed at point of sale by the consumer. The prescribed rate is payed by us tax-payers.

Needless to say, fees remain static.

As I said in an earlier post, Doctors drive Mercs.

Not Lamborghinis Boo hoo.

majinkoola
05-14-2008, 08:54 PM
liberteebell,

My standard of living is higher than yours.



You would have a point, if we had a truly free market. We don't, so that point doesn't really matter. We probably advocate more change to the health care system than you do.

hypnagogue
05-14-2008, 08:59 PM
If collective bargaining and shared costs is the most efficient and effective way to get health care than that is a perfectly viable option within a free health market. My strong suspicion though, is that collective systems only work with wealthier individuals paying for poorer individuals, which let's be honest, almost no one would voluntarily do.

I know of no reason why health care is a service which, unlike almost every other service under the sun, isn't most effectively and efficiently delivered by a free market. Do you really think that health insurance that covers catastrophic health events, such as myaloid leukemia, would be unaffordable?

That's the theory anyway. If when properly implemented, it could be shown that individuals who are at least participating in the economy productively in some form or fashion could not afford adequate health coverage, I would not be opposed to a nationalized health program. Provided, of course, we did it properly with a Federal Constitutional amendment or implemented it individually on a state by state basis.

It'd be a shame since it would slow our progress as a whole, but I guess we'd lump it in with police, courts, the military, etc..

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 09:03 PM
You would have a point, if we had a truly free market. We don't, so that point doesn't really matter. We probably advocate more change to the health care system than you do.

I reckon if you got the Fed out of the way, individual states would negotiate their own outcomes.

Say for instance, the state of Illinois (my old stomping ground) could negotiate directly with drug companies on price, with the interests of its citizens foremost.

Reckon you'd get cheaper drugs?

Or would Michigan, Wisconsin, or Indiana?

That's market forces at work.

klamath
05-14-2008, 09:17 PM
As someone who has spent a lot of years around and in emergency medicine I have seen the other side of free for those that don't pay for it. How about medicare recipients that call an ALS ambulance because they want something to eat at 3 AM. That same call for you and me would have cost $1000. How about the young perfectly healthy person that goes to the ER for a cold because they don't want to wait in line at a clinic because medicaid is paying for it. To us uninsured that visit costs $500 to $1000. Or how about that lazy person that doesn't want to take the public free tranportation to a doctors appointment so they call an ambulance. That trip would have cost you or I $2000. None of these people can be refused.
I consider myself a pretty compassionate person. I have volunteered many years to a mountain rescue team and can say others are alive today because of what my teammates and I did. In my early years of volunteering I was living on about $5000 a year.
I have stared starvation in the face and I did not ask the government to go at gunpoint and take money from someone else but I have asked for help from friends and relatives and it was their choice to help.
I have always donated time and money to people I know needed help on a personal level because only that way will that person that is in a bind get dollar for dollar what I give not 25 layers of government paper pushers taking 90 cents out of every dollars to hand that money out.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 09:22 PM
As someone who has spent a lot of years around and in emergency medicine I have seen the other side of free for those that don't pay for it. How about medicare recipients that call an ALS ambulance because they want a something to eat at 3 AM. That same call for you and me would have cost $1000. How about the young perfectly healthy person that goes to the ER for a cold because they don't want to wait in line at a clinic because medicaid is paying for it. To us uninsured that visit costs $500 to $1000. Or how about that lazy person that doesn't want to take the public free tranportation to a doctors appointment so they call an ambulance. That trip would have cost you or I $2000. None of these people can be refused.
I consider myself a pretty compassionate person. I have volunteered many years to a mountain rescue team and can say others are alive today because of what my teammates and I did. In my early years of volunteering I was living on about $5000 a year.
I have stared starvation in the face and I did not ask the government to go at gunpoint and take money from someone else but I have asked for help from friends and relatives and it was their choice to help.
I have always donated time and money to people I know needed help on a personal level because only that way will that person that is in a bind get dollar for dollar what I give not 25 layers of government paper pushers taking 90 cents out of every dollars to hand that money out.
Mandatory 150.00 Ambulance fee.

klamath
05-14-2008, 09:30 PM
Mandatory 150.00 Ambulance fee.

And how do you collect? Send them a bill that they never pay. They are still intitled to that ambulance ride when they call.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 09:33 PM
And how do you collect? Send them a bill that they never pay. They are still intitled to that ambulance ride when they call.


The system is open to abuse no matter what.

How do you stop people from making bogus 911 calls?

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 09:34 PM
Or you don't get an ambulance ride without Mastercard?

klamath
05-14-2008, 09:43 PM
Or you don't get an ambulance ride without Mastercard?

People like that normally have a credit score of about 2.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 09:48 PM
People like that normally have a credit score of about 2.

Leave it to the discretion of the ambo on whether your worth the ride or not.

klamath
05-14-2008, 09:56 PM
And have 15 federal and state case workers and the free lawyers breathing down the paramedic's neck for abandoning that poor sick person. If it was local it might work.

Ozwest
05-14-2008, 09:58 PM
And have 15 federal and state case workers and the free lawyers breathing down the paramedic's neck for abandoning that poor sick person. If it was local it might work.

You are a cruel man klamath.:D

Knightskye
05-15-2008, 01:03 AM
The [s] tags don't work here?

Kludge
05-15-2008, 01:43 PM
The [s] tags don't work here?

Nope :(

bojo68
05-16-2008, 08:19 PM
You can't put a price on life.

.

The heck I can't. If the price is having to live in a socialist dogma like you seem to promote, and never tire of bitching about, the price is to high.
That's right, give me liberty or give me death, in fact, I'll buy it.
The fact of the matter is I'm going to die, and I'm going to die WITHOUT paying for anybody's healthcare I don't make the decision to. If I die sooner because I don't have "govt't healthcare", that's fine too.