Americans with Disabilities Act

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Greetings everyone,

I was watching a movie called Music Within, which talks about the Americans with Disabilities Act and how it is important people, (it certainly is important to me). In any case, I got to wondering whether such a thing as the ADA could be handled on a state or local level. After finishing the film, I poked around some reviews. The following is written by Roger Ebert--which sort of enlivens my faith in individual and local community spirit:

Music Within
Blazing a beaten path

Release Date: 2007

Ebert Rating: **½

/ / / Oct 26, 2007

By Roger Ebert

I have good things to write about "Music Within," but I have some troubles with it, too. First, the good stuff: This is an entertaining, sometimes inspiring film about a man named Richard Pimental (Ron Livingston), who serves in Vietnam and is almost completely deafened when a shell lands near him in battle. Returning to America, he receives not exactly expert treatment for his disability and is cast out into the world to find himself all but unemployable. Among the friends he makes in the disabled community is Art Honeyman (Michael Sheen), who has cerebral palsy but is a powerhouse of intelligence and wit.

The two of them experience first-hand the discrimination, sometimes unconscious, that the world inflicts on those who look, sound or act differently. In one of the movie's most infuriating scenes, they are asked to leave a restaurant, "because you're disturbing the other customers." How are they disturbing them? By being there. By existing. By Honeyman being twisted and in a wheelchair and talking awkwardly.

Pimental's own experiences and what he sees happening to his friends inspire him to become a disability rights activist, and although the movie doesn't quite say so, he must have been the driving force behind the Americans With Disabilities Act (1990), because no one else is mentioned. Taken just on these terms, the movie works, it's effective, and I believe audiences will respond to it.

Emphasis here -->My own feelings are a little more complex. They began forming in early childhood. Growing up in Urbana, I was unknowingly at the center of a rehabilitation movement that formed after World War II. Thousands of returning vets were in wheelchairs. Unlike Pimental, who is told in the film that he doesn't qualify for veterans' college funds because he is deaf, many of them attended universities on the G.I. Bill.

The University of Illinois sits on a landscape flat as a pancake. Ideal for wheelchairs. The Urbana-Champaign community, starting in 1946, began to build ramps into buildings, adapt elevators and washrooms, make curb cuts and equip buses with chair lifts. This was not done overnight, but the town became known as wheelchair-friendly. Our local TV sportscaster, Tom Jones, was in a wheelchair. Our wheelchair athletes, organized in a program by Dr. Tim Nugent, helped launch wheelchair sports. During Vietnam, the loudest anti-war protester on campus was an SDS member named Rudy Frank who walked with so many braces he looked like RoboCop. My photo chief at The Daily Illini was Ken Viste, who was in a chair, but that didn't keep him from working the sidelines at sporting events. Disabled people were no big deal.

Things like that were happening all over the country, and I learned a little about them in 1962 when I went along as an aide on a tour of Southern Africa with 18 wheelchair athletes, who demonstrated that life did not end with forms of paralysis. All of this came before Pimental went to Vietnam.

The national disability rights movement had many parents. Such men as Robert Burgdorf, Justin Whitlock Dart Jr. and Sen. Bob Dole were instrumental. Remember Ron Kovic, who was born on the Fourth of July? Here in Chicago, my friend Marca Bristo founded Access Living to support the disabled who wanted to live independently. She lobbied relentlessly in City Hall and Springfield. She was appointed chair of the National Council on Disability. No, she didn't create the Americans With Disabilities Act. But Google both her and Pimental, and decide for yourself who played a larger role in the movement.

What bothers me is that "Music Within" takes an individual story, an inspiring one, yes, and then thinks that's all there is to be told. It wasn't one guy who got mad. It was decades of struggle, decades of rejection, decades of streets that couldn't be crossed, stairs that couldn't be climbed, houses that couldn't be lived in and customers who couldn't be bothered. Richard Pimental was more of a beneficiary of the disability rights movement than a pioneer. So why do I give the movie 2½ stars? Because what it does, it does sincerely and fairly well. Just remember that its hero stands for countless others.
----
Cast & Credits

Richard Pimental: Ron Livingston
Dr. Ben Padrow: Hector Elizondo
Art Honeyman: Michael Sheen
Mike Stolz: Yul Vazquez
Mom: Rebecca De Mornay
Bill Austin: Leslie Nielsen
Christine: Melissa George

Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer presents a film directed by Steven Sawalich. Written by Bret McKinney, Mark Andrew Olsen and Kelly Kennemer. Running time: 93 minutes. Rated R (for language including sexual references, and some drug content).
--

I posted this account because it gives an example of how a limited, strict-Constitutionalist government, may, (at least in some circumstances), be palatable for citizens with disabilities.

Enjoy. Be well.

Sincerely,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[wild03]

Greetings everyone,

I was watching a movie called Music Within, which talks about the Americans with Disabilities Act and how it is important people, (it certainly is important to me). In any case, I got to wondering whether such a thing as the ADA could be handled on a state or local level. After finishing the film, I poked around some reviews. The following is written by Roger Ebert--which sort of enlivens my faith in individual and local community spirit:



You bring an excellent point, The main lesson of "Economics in one lesson" by Henry Hazlitt is "the fallacy of overlooking secondary consequences". Anything that is forced by the Federal government forces everyone down the same path. It takes wealth way from research to maybe cure the disable or instead of molding buildings around them what if it is more economical to mold them around the buildings. i.e Special wheelchairs that can go up and down stairs. etc.

We don't know what technology could bring, some years ago the idea that a little hand held device could read for the blind was something out of a movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWXrnsSrf0 Ray Kurzweil demonstrates it here in the first few minutes of this video. Now who would have invested money on something like this if the government had forced every blind person to have a government paid employee to read for them?

[SweetMona]

American With Disabilities Act, there are pros and cons....

There are 5 titles which is expanded after Solider's Act in 1900 and Rehabilitation Act in 1973.

Pros - prevent employers and housing businesses to wrongfully discriminate individuals with disabilities. For instance, a person with visually impaired is not offered for a job just because the employer is either ignorant of his vocational skills or just doesn't like having anyone with defeciency at work. If he gets offer, then it'll keep him off government's disability checks.

Cons - Many Deaf and Hard of Hearing school programs are broken and scattered all over in public schools, that they do not know much about disability sensitivity. More government controls over their abilities to hear such as Cochlear implants, try to abolish our beautiful language, American Sign Language.

There are too many laws overlapping one another. I'm sure Ron Paul has some good ideas on certain solution like this.

Maybe I'll ask him next Friday when I show up for booksigning in San Diego!

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

You bring an excellent point, The main lesson of "Economics in one lesson" by Henry Hazlitt is "the fallacy of overlooking secondary consequences". Anything that is forced by the Federal government forces everyone down the same path. It takes wealth way from research to maybe cure the disable or instead of molding buildings around them what if it is more economical to mold them around the buildings. i.e Special wheelchairs that can go up and down stairs. etc...We don't know what technology could bring...[snip example]

Thank you. The video was wonderful and I appreciate how you used an example to address the concerns of someone such as myself. Usually, when politicians like Mitt Romney, (or whomever), praise limited government, it makes a person think of a filthy rich, bought off, Washington insider saying, "Let's take some poor peoples' benefits away." Change this reaction and people become more receptive to liberty.

Still, I think the average voter, who depends on federal government programs/legislation is deeply concerned at the thought of their absence. If only there were a state in the US designated as a, "strict, limited government-only, free market zone". (It would be the, "skim milk" to the rest of America's, "2 percent"); those of us outside of the state could point to it and remark, "See--society thrives in Freedom Land (™). Disabled people have access to the community, etc. The masses are not starving any more than they are over here."

Even though my belief in limited government is not strong enough that I would forsake the ADA, I should like to express the following: the federal government is not intuitive. It did not assess the needs of the disabled and kindly offer help. Pushing came first. Activism came first. If not for the ADA, then adaptive technology, or at least some sort of local legislation, would have taken its place. Though certain communities would have fared worse without the Americans with Disabilities Act, other communities might have produced something better.

That's the end of my rant. Thank you again for the reply.

Sincerely,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Cons - ...More government controls over their abilities to hear such as Cochlear implants, try to abolish our beautiful language, American Sign Language.



...that government bureaucrats can force Cochlear implants upon you?

[SweetMona]

...that government bureaucrats can force Cochlear implants upon you?

Technically YES but in subtle ways. Not many people are interested to look into this. I just discover that govt bureaucrats have been giving big $ grants to Alexander Graham Bell organization and they go around preaching on parents who have deaf infants to sign the consent forms. By the time those babies are at 6 months old, they are set for head surgery and place Cochelar implants in. AGB organization do not offer them other options such as using American Sign Language as a foundation to early development of communication.
There are hundreds of students at Gallaudet University who chose not to use CI anymore. What a shame!
There are many things that went wrong.

There are many resources online. have you seen "EndGame" film, they talk about it a bit. How do you know about ADA?

[yongrel]

Highlights from the Penn & Teller: Bullshit episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2YET6sg5I&eurl=http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDT2YET6sg5I

[wild03]

Highlights from the Penn & Teller: Bullshit episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2YET6sg5I&eurl=http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDT2YET6sg5I

That was great

Thanks!

[DriftWood]

Yeah thats a tough one.. What would happen to people with disabilities if the rest of the population did not provide for them thru taxes?

Traveling in Asia and you see lots of disabled people begging in the streets (especially mine victims in Cambodia). At the same time its amazing how many where not begging, but selling stuff and making a living doing all kinds of things. This one guy without arms or shoulders was earned commission getting people to buy bus tickets. Lots of blind street musicians. It very sad, but at the same time its uplifting when you realize that if these badly disabled people in some of the poorest countries can survive, so could i if the "worst" happened. I think that just about every person no matter how disabled can be a productive member of society. I think that as long as a person has a sound mind he can figure out a way to make a living ( if Hawkins can do it so can just about anyone ). In this modern day and age with the internet and all, people don't really need a body or hearing anyway. And for the blind there are lots of options (i guess teh common ones are massage, call center, music, etc).

The hardest thing would probably be to make a living with a mental disability. But even many people with downs syndrome can do manual labor and do simple chores to make a living. I think the biggest barrier for mentally disabled people to get jobs is the minimum wage and the high taxes on jobs.. without those barriers even the smallest marginal task that benefits society would be a job. Now those jobs do not exist because they are illegal. A person needs very little money to survive, food and shelter for one day is very cheap. Surely there are lots of small jobs that could pay that much.

And the people that really are helpless, probably their family and community can help them out by charity. I don't think people are so inhumane that without a state we would watch helpless people starve to death.

Cheers

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

How do you know about ADA?

I have CP, so I use it all the time. Yourself? (I gather you are either deaf or hearing impaired, yes?) In any case, I would love to hear more about the film, "Endgame". Is it a reputable production, (say from PBS, BBC, HBO, or Showtime)? Not that Internet-only broadcasts are without their points, I'm just more inclined to share with others something whose source I could cite in a speech class...

To Yongrel I say, "Thank you," for the video segment. Even though I don't agree with some of the points made, I may still look into the disabled author's book.
--
My main issue is that generally, given the choice between a mandated, pushbutton, electric door opener or waiting for one of my fellow college students to open the door for me, I would choose the pushbutton door.

It is said that liberals put too much faith in the government and libertarians over-estimate the goodness of the individual--I guess I'm somewhere in between.

Have a delightful evening.

Sincerely yours,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[AutoDas]

I think foundations would do a better job looking out for their own people. The government underestimates what businesses are willing to do for their customers.

[angelatc]

I think foundations would do a better job looking out for their own people. The government underestimates what businesses are willing to do for their customers.

But (and I'm not pro ADA) the percentage of disabled people is pretty insignificant in a retail customer population.

[AutoDas]

There are tons of businesses in Old Colorado who don't have automatic door openers. Why aren't they being penalized? Government makes a regulation that has no bearing on the matter. Wal-Mart doesn't have 3 automatic door openers just for disabled people. Life isn't fair. It's impossible to make everything equal for everyone.

[wild03]

I have CP, so I use it all the time. Yourself? (I gather you are either deaf or hearing impaired, yes?) In any case, I would love to hear more about the film, "Endgame". Is it a reputable production, (say from PBS, BBC, HBO, or Showtime)? Not that Internet-only broadcasts are without their points, I'm just more inclined to share with others something whose source I could cite in a speech class...

To Yongrel I say, "Thank you," for the video segment. Even though I don't agree with some of the points made, I may still look into the disabled author's book.
--
My main issue is that generally, given the choice between a mandated, pushbutton, electric door opener or waiting for one of my fellow college students to open the door for me, I would choose the pushbutton door.

It is said that liberals put too much faith in the government and libertarians over-estimate the goodness of the individual--I guess I'm somewhere in between.

Have a delightful evening.

Sincerely yours,
Omphfullas Zamboni

Is great that while being personally involved with these issues you are so open minded and still searching for answers. "Disabling America: The Unintended Consequences of the Government’s Protection of the Handicapped" by Greg Perry might be a great start and you'll get the perspective from a disabled person.

I can see how a pushbutton on every door would be nice. But the morality of forcing the issue on everyone is something that one should study. I don't believe that true libertarians over-estimate the goodness of individuals at all. I don't think one should expect anything from anyone at all except rationality. People cooperating for mutual benefit is I believe a evolutionarily stable strategy. A rational being will clearly understand that it is on his/her benefit to cooperate with others. In a free society people will accommodate the disable not because of goodness but because they value such actions.

This is not easy to understand because we are not thought from childhood that by having concern for one own interests is also on the best interest of others. The first thing that comes to mind is someone going on crime spree. This however is not on the best interest of the criminal at all. Just like talks of free-markets create images of a dog eat dog society. This however is not in the best interest for those individuals or dogs for that matter.

Best of luck!

[SweetMona]

I have CP, so I use it all the time. Yourself? (I gather you are either deaf or hearing impaired, yes?) In any case, I would love to hear more about the film, "Endgame". Is it a reputable production, (say from PBS, BBC, HBO, or Showtime)? Not that Internet-only broadcasts are without their points, I'm just more inclined to share with others something whose source I could cite in a speech class...

To Yongrel I say, "Thank you," for the video segment. Even though I don't agree with some of the points made, I may still look into the disabled author's book.
--
My main issue is that generally, given the choice between a mandated, pushbutton, electric door opener or waiting for one of my fellow college students to open the door for me, I would choose the pushbutton door.

It is said that liberals put too much faith in the government and libertarians over-estimate the goodness of the individual--I guess I'm somewhere in between.

Have a delightful evening.

Sincerely yours,
Omphfullas Zamboni

Yes, I'm Deaf and have been like that all of my life. I think only you and I saw that movie, Music Within. It was great and inspiring story. Richard Pimentol is strong advocate of people with disabilities... (other people who posted here "disabled people" needs to change and identify us as people first, not disabled, we ask everyone to please recognize us as "people with disabilities" thank you)....

I went to House of Blues yesterday, it was fundraising event. I saw Dancing with Stars couple! It was Marlee Matlin and Fabian Sanchez! Jamie Lee Curtis was there... I love how Marlee presented herself and she spoke that she is tired of people's criticism stating that her winning Oscar award was just a sympathy vote. She kept on saying that we need to be treated equally in Hollywood and all over the nation. Many changes do not require expensive costs but if they are then they can be tax write off (is that constitutional? haha)... Here's picture of Me and Marlee! So much fun!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk84/SweetMona_photos/IMG00214.jpg

[DriftWood]

Yes, I'm Deaf and have been like that all of my life. I think only you and I saw that movie, Music Within. It was great and inspiring story. Richard Pimentol is strong advocate of people with disabilities... (other people who posted here "disabled people" needs to change and identify us as people first, not disabled, we ask everyone to please recognize us as "people with disabilities" thank you)....

I went to House of Blues yesterday, it was fundraising event. I saw Dancing with Stars couple! It was Marlee Matlin and Fabian Sanchez! Jamie Lee Curtis was there... I love how Marlee presented herself and she spoke that she is tired of people's criticism stating that her winning Oscar award was just a sympathy vote. She kept on saying that we need to be treated equally in Hollywood and all over the nation. Many changes do not require expensive costs but if they are then they can be tax write off (is that constitutional? haha)... Here's picture of Me and Marlee! So much fun!

h ttp://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk84/SweetMona_photos/IMG00214.jpg

"[...] other people who posted here "disabled people" needs to change and identify us as people first, not disabled, we ask everyone to please recognize us as "people with disabilities" thank you"

Hmm, is that not just semantics though? I mean, if that was used as a semantic rule for all, then people should use the term "people with white skin" instead of "white people" and "people of Asian descent" instead of "Asian people" and "people from Sweden" instead of "Swedish people" and "people of short height" instead of "short people". That just seems to be a more cumbersome way to say the same thing. It takes longer to think, say, and write. The intention has not changed, only the semantics has changed. I don't mean to be rude, but i don't see why there should be a special semantic rule for the word disabled. Its just a word among others.

Cheers

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

...if that was used as a semantic rule for all, then people should use the term "people with white skin" instead of "white people" and "people of Asian descent" instead of "Asian people" and "people from Sweden" instead of "Swedish people" and "people of short height" instead of "short people". That just seems to be a more cumbersome way to say the same thing. It takes longer to think, say, and write.

Mona,

Though I think I'm going to agree with the above quote on this one, I understand your point about putting the emphasis on the person. In fact, if English were like most languages, it would be done, automatically:

personne handicapée
persona lisiada
persona disabile

Different people probably have varying preferences concerning the way to which they would rather their disability be referred. My personal favorite is, "Differently Abled". (It makes me sound like I can spin webs and shoot lasers from out my irises!)

http://www0.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/0df0d7a5177560ab0bd3a05a6c4e14205g.jpg (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=xtetntdyety&thumb=4)

By the way, while we're on the subject of disabilities, has anybody seen the movie, "My Left Foot"? It's slightly superior to, "Music within", in my opinion.

Have a pleasant day.

Sincerely,
Omphfullas Zamboni

PS
Mona, you posted a picture of yourself next to somebody from Dancing with the Stars. I don't watch that show, much; did this person win?

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

There are tons of businesses in Old Colorado who don't have automatic door openers. Why aren't they being penalized?

Is it possible that these buildings were constructed before 1990 and haven't since been renovated? I don't think the ADA is retro active...

[SweetMona]

I have seen that movie, My Left Foot. Great movie! I could watch it again and again!

There's a new movie coming called, "Hamill The Movie" but there's controversial issue about hearing actor taking Deaf Role as Matt the fighter. I'd like to have your opinion on this....

www.matthamillthemovie.com (http://www.matthamillthemovie.com)

Oh by the way, I've been working for state and county. I was attacked and critized for calling them "disabled people" I was a fool back then so I understand the true meaning of human beings as an individual personnel not as someone with deficency to the public. If you say disabled people at Capitol Hill, then they would look at you funny. So just my 2 cents thought...
;)

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

I have seen that movie, My Left Foot. Great movie! I could watch it again and again!

There's a new movie coming called, "Hamill The Movie" but there's controversial issue about hearing actor taking Deaf Role as Matt the fighter. I'd like to have your opinion on this....

www.matthamillthemovie.com (http://www.matthamillthemovie.com)

Oh by the way, I've been working for state and county. I was attacked and critized for calling them "disabled people" I was a fool back then so I understand the true meaning of human beings as an individual personnel not as someone with deficency to the public. If you say disabled people at Capitol Hill, then they would look at you funny. So just my 2 cents thought...
;)
I didn't know you work for the state, where I am familiar with the push for disability-friendly lingo. Typically, state workers whom I have met try to make people with disabilities feel at ease. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. For instance, a person might kneel in order to maintain eye contact. On the one hand, this is the sort of posture one would assume when comforting or scolding a child. On the other hand, I don't have to spend an entire conversation looking up somebody's nose.

These interpersonal issues are really minor--so I don't make a fuss. In fact, it amuses me that articles titled, "How to Interact with a Person Who Uses a Wheelchair (http://www.wikihow.com/Interact-with-a-Person-Who-Uses-a-Wheelchair)" are available on the Internet. See below:

9. Be sensitive Comparing a young wheelchair user to an elderly adult is rude ("Hey! All you need is pearls and you and grandma could be on a team...."). Don't do it. :D I guess this sort of thing is good for people who don't really think about their behavior. :rolleyes:

About the new movie, it looks sharp. For the leading character, I say, choose the best actor. Neither the lead actors in Music Within, My Left Foot nor Million-Dollar Baby were quadriplegic, and that didn't seem to affect the quality of the movies. Conversely, it would be tops if the producers chose a truly deaf guy, just for relatablity.

Cheers,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[Unspun]

Penn and Teller did an episode on the American's with Disabilities Act...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT2YET6sg5I

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Ah, yes; I think that video was posted earlier in the thread. Thanks again, though, Bagman.

[lchik]

My thread on ADA
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=154732

I just wish solutions were easy. I am glad my daughter who lives with epilepsy is strong emotionally and physically. Even helping her mom walk through Vail Village at times.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Hi,

I wish solutions were easy, too.

With Sincerity,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[muzzled dogg]

never really thought about this til just now

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Hi there,

Come to any conclusions on the topic, Mr. Shemdogg?

Regards,
Omphfullas Zamboni

[Danke]

bump

[JosephTheLibertarian]

bump a 1 1/2 year old thread? wtf

but yes. eliminate ADA.

[MelissaWV]

bump a 1 1/2 year old thread? wtf

but yes. eliminate ADA.

The "bump" is probably because the ADA, while rooted in something a bit more tangible than the CRA, walks the same line.

I've had the distinct pleasure and displeasure of meeting a lot of blindguys these past couple of years. Since they're all in Canada, it's a little different, but the bottom line is that they fall into two hugely different camps.

The first group of people stay on assistance. They get checks, they don't go out much, and they generally just exist at home. Most of them are the proverbial "guy living in their mother's basement," except since they get so much "free money" they are living alone. They don't usually take orientation and mobility classes, and they feel a sense of entitlement. This is a generalization based purely on the people I've met who accept assistance checks, but most of the other blindguys seem to agree it's a cause/effect relationship. People who never have to work for anything, and are taught they are owed something by society out of pity, will wind up pretty pathetic.

The second group stays off of assistance. These people take orientation and mobility classes, and get jobs. They don't usually make much more than their "on assistance" counterparts, but they want to work. They get out, they meet people, they get to be social. Their level of interaction with the outside world is a lot healthier, and they have better attitudes about their sightlessness. Going out with someone from this category is actually pretty eye-opening in its normalcy. Other than getting used to what might, to others, appear to be questionable table manners... it's mostly the same. Of course, some other people do stare, make comments, discriminate, and generally make things entirely difficult, but that's their right (imo) and I just don't spend my time or money in those establishments.

Trust me, the places that blindguys frequent get to know them, and are eager to make them at home for the most part. You have an opportunity, as a business owner, to seal the deal and gain a customer for life just by doing something super simple. One of the pubs my boyfriend frequents now has a Braille menu. It wasn't particularly hard for them to do, nor very expensive, and now they have a good dozen blindguy regulars (who almost always come in with a crowd). Not bad for business!

Life is never going to be fair to everyone, and forcing it doesn't make it so, either. Okay, so we're putting ramps in so that people in wheelchairs can get into the store. Then? Will all the shelves have to be reachable from the wheelchair? Well, they can't be TOO low to the ground, either; the elderly can't stoop over. Should all the prices also be in Braille, with a description of the shelved item? Should every public address made over the speaker also be transmitted to electronic devices available at the front, so that hearing impaired persons within the store can keep up to speed on the specials or any emergency information? This could go even further than it already has, and it would need to in order to really make things "fair."