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View Full Version : Mike Gravel's birthday is May 13th, and there will be a mass donation day




rossl
05-11-2008, 07:05 PM
http://www.gravel2008.us/donate_now

http://www.50-20.us

Who's donating?

Kotin
05-11-2008, 07:11 PM
not me ;)


check my sig

Bruno
05-11-2008, 07:14 PM
Who cares?

TastyWheat
05-11-2008, 08:45 PM
Just because he's after the lp nomination doesn't mean he's a changed man. I like him but he hasn't proven to be a real liberty-minded candidate yet.

Kludge
05-11-2008, 08:47 PM
He went to the LP debates and called for "Healthcare for all", the SoB.

porcupine
05-12-2008, 11:21 AM
He went to the LP debates and called for "Healthcare for all", the SoB.

Yes, it seems that many of the uninformed think that "libertarian" just means "unhappy with the Democrats/Republicans" and have no clue about libertarian principles

G-Wohl
05-12-2008, 11:54 AM
I think many here get confused between Libertarian and libertarian.

Small "l" libertarians, Mike Gravel fits in perfectly. I don't see a problem with him trying to bring this kind of philosophy to the Big "L" Libertarian party, which could definitely use more left-thinking people like himself and Steve Kubby in the picture.

I wouldn't mind either Paul or Gravel as my next president, because I don't like Paul's anti-abortion stance, but also don't like Gravel's call for universal healthcare and global citizenship.

porcupine
05-12-2008, 11:59 AM
I think many here get confused between Libertarian and libertarian.

Small "l" libertarians, Mike Gravel fits in perfectly. I don't see a problem with him trying to bring this kind of philosophy to the Big "L" Libertarian party, which could definitely use more left-thinking people like himself and Steve Kubby in the picture.

I wouldn't mind either Paul or Gravel as my next president, because I don't like Paul's anti-abortion stance, but also don't like Gravel's call for universal healthcare and global citizenship.

Calling Gravel a libertarian is nonsense, regardless of capitalization. He's a leftist with an anti-establishment tilt. He has no clue what liberty is, proved by the fact that he thinks direct democracy is a libertarian idea.

Alex Libman
05-12-2008, 12:08 PM
Gravel is a socialist. Donate to a real Libertarian like Mary Ruwart instead. But we should all nonetheless unite behind whoever the LP picks. (Which sure as hell won't be Gravel, he's a joke.)

G-Wohl
05-12-2008, 03:00 PM
Calling Gravel a libertarian is nonsense, regardless of capitalization. He's a leftist with an anti-establishment tilt. He has no clue what liberty is, proved by the fact that he thinks direct democracy is a libertarian idea.


Libertarianism is a broad spectrum of political philosophies, each sharing the common overall priority of maximum limitation of government combined with optimum possible individual liberty.

I think we're pretty clear on the definition of libertarianism (the political philosophy) here, but just in case, I quoted Wikipedia's entry above. Is it not true that very few of Gravel's principles do not reflect the quote above? The phrase "optimum possible individual liberty" is very subjective, if you ask me, and most of us here would say that getting rid of the big government bureaucracy would be the first big step. Mike Gravel simply interprets this phrase differently than we Ron Paul supporters do.

I have seen quite a few YouTube videos of him speaking in front of large libertarian crowds with loud applause when he says that to downsize government you can legalize a fourth check into the federal government branch system. Though I don't personally think this is the right step forward, I see no problem with this - the disagreements we face between these two candidates will no doubt spark quite a few debates amongst the Libertarian Party, which will only expand our tent and make the LP a more competitive outfit.

Christianalwaysg124RP
05-12-2008, 04:03 PM
I think we're pretty clear on the definition of libertarianism (the political philosophy) here, but just in case, I quoted Wikipedia's entry above. Is it not true that very few of Gravel's principles do not reflect the quote above? The phrase "optimum possible individual liberty" is very subjective, if you ask me, and most of us here would say that getting rid of the big government bureaucracy would be the first big step. Mike Gravel simply interprets this phrase differently than we Ron Paul supporters do.

I have seen quite a few YouTube videos of him speaking in front of large libertarian crowds with loud applause when he says that to downsize government you can legalize a fourth check into the federal government branch system. Though I don't personally think this is the right step forward, I see no problem with this - the disagreements we face between these two candidates will no doubt spark quite a few debates amongst the Libertarian Party, which will only expand our tent and make the LP a more competitive outfit.


There are semantics about the argument, but he isn't a minarchist libertarian nor is he economically conservative like us Ron Paul supporters. It's simple rhetoric, not actual talk.

HarbingerOfTruth
05-12-2008, 05:57 PM
He should be admitted to a mental institution, not into the white house.

Aratus
05-13-2008, 08:53 AM
mike gravel as bob barrs veep would give the libertarians quite a gravitas.
the other option is a fusion ticket with chuck baldwin of the constitution party.

amy31416
05-13-2008, 09:06 AM
Why in god's name would anyone donate to Gravel, Barr or anyone else on a third-party ticket? Just flush your money down the toilet instead.

BJ Lawson actually has a shot, as do Vern McKinley, Amit Singh and Murray Sabrin--at least donating to them could actually help win an office.

Libertarian Ideals
05-13-2008, 07:54 PM
Libertarians in general seem to spend too much time defining "libertarianism".

Mike Gravel is a strong supporter of liberty of the mind & of free association (in the context of an existing society), among other things. I think that is reason enough to join the libertarian party. Bob Barr isn't any "purer," to be honest. I think Ron Paul could learn a thing or two from Mike Gravel's social views, as well.

Mike Gravel is a great guy. :) Don't bash friends of liberty just because they don't fit your pure definition of libertarianism. In order for liberty to take root, liberty will need diverse support. Making enemies is not going to help us in the long run.


Do not libertarians support freedom to have our own opinions and ideas to change things?


Yes, he justifies coercion and the greater good, but so does some of the purest libertarians in other ways, although to a lesser extent.


Isn't voting a form of utilitarianism (a form of the greater good) as well? Mike Gravel does not support giving up our responsibility. He is correct that representative democracy is broken. And, he has admitted himself that his views may not be completely correct.

At the very least, he gives me something to think about.


EDIT: Happy Birthday Mike! :D

yongrel
05-13-2008, 08:04 PM
http://forgotston.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/money-down-toilet.jpg