this $#!+ makes me sick, no knock drug warrant, no drugs, guy shot 5 times by PIGS

[jaybone]

http://www.justicefortracy.com/

be sure to digg and check out the link to reason.com article
this HAS To go to court

[yongrel]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.

[Kludge]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.

FFS yongrel... Why do I even bother clicking on a thread... You take all the good points.... +1 -_-

[RPTXState]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.

From what I can tell, it looks like they deserved it.

Insulting police in general, and yeah I would have to agree with you. But if someone goes into your house and shoots you, regardless of if they have a badge, and...well, it's different.

[jaybone]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.

i dont give a shit if you respect me or not, this is not about ME asshole.

[RPTXState]

i dont give a shit if you respect me or not, this is not about ME asshole.

Don't feed the trolls.

[Kludge]

i dont give a shit if you respect me or not, this is not about ME asshole.

Association is pragmatic, albeit unfair.

[richardfortherepublic]

i dont give a shit if you respect me or not, this is not about ME asshole.

If you want to bring attention to something, don't bring attention to yourself.

[amy31416]

I'd need a whole lot more of both sides of the story to be persuaded to donate to this guy. Brief story about how he did absolutely nothing and the cops came in and shot him--how many times have we heard that before?

Of all the times, I've only heard one that sounded plausible. This ain't one of 'em so far.

[newyearsrevolution08]

Thats messed up to get shot in your own home whether you were doing something illegal or not. Whatever you were doing IN your home could not have been invading on anyone elses privacy or rights anyways.

[ItsTime]

not all police are pigs just the ones that break the constitution. lets keep it at that. There are many Ron Paul Republican police in my area and I actually feel safer.

[sratiug]

From what I can tell, it looks like they deserved it.

Insulting police in general, and yeah I would have to agree with you. But if someone goes into your house and shoots you, regardless of if they have a badge, and...well, it's different.

+1000

These fucking trolls need to leave the forums with their bullshit defense of attempted murder.

[garrettwombat]

if you get shot by a policeman with no real threat to open fire that policeman is no longer a cop and is a pig.

[Fields]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.

What is your issue with freedom of speech? Protecting speech you dislike is to protect freedom of speech, not just what you like to hear.

Get over it.

[Kludge]

What is your issue with freedom of speech? Protecting speech you dislike is to protect freedom of speech, not just what you like to hear.

Get over it.

Yongrel's on a mission to silence anything that may reflect upon Dr. Paul badly. We are not his audience.

[yongrel]

Yongrel's on a mission to silence anything that may reflect upon Dr. Paul badly. We are not his audience.

;)

[sratiug]

I'd need a whole lot more of both sides of the story to be persuaded to donate to this guy. Brief story about how he did absolutely nothing and the cops came in and shot him--how many times have we heard that before?

Of all the times, I've only heard one that sounded plausible. This ain't one of 'em so far.

What exactly would be a story where somebody was in his own home and the police came in and shot him and it was ok? Get a grip, Amy, you are completely deluded.

[demolama]

Police are standing armies in all but name. While government cannot use the “real” army on the people because of the Posse Comitatus Act, they can certainly keep producing more and more policemen both state and federal to do the exact same type of tactics. This of course while arming them in full military gear.

The police do much of what British Regulars did before the Revolution. Self-written search warrants are no different that writs of assistance used to enforce the stamp act. British regulars routinely entered any home; trashed the place, and were not held accountable for damages.

At the time of the Constitution there were no policemen. Towns and counties had constables and sheriffs, while federals had marshals. These people could create posses as long as they were held accountable by civilian law. But the true law enforcement was left to the people in the form of militias.

Now there is a distinction between militias used for military usage and militias used for civilian purposes. Lord Chief Justice Mansfield’s doctrine dictated that when militias are called upon for civil action they are to be held accountable to civilian law and not military. This doctrine lasted in the United States up until around 1850’s when soldiers were used in civilian capacity but were immune to civilian law to enforce the fugitive slave act and of course they stayed there during Reconstruction until the Posse Comitatus Act was passed in 1878 and the Dick Act of 1903 phased out militias.

The point is we are treated like children. Stripped of our defenses and forced to be subjects to an all-powerful government that knows what is best for us from cradle to grave. We are not allowed to think. We are not allowed to act. Just accept the money that comes your way and shut up. Who cares about the destruction of the Constitution and the way of life the founders gave their lives to defend, they were just racist, sexist, wealthy, white, foolish men that could never understand the complex world of today. Stop worshiping the Founders and embrace uniformity and nationalism. One America. :sigh:

[amy31416]

What exactly would be a story where somebody was in his own home and the police came in and shot him and it was ok? Get a grip, Amy, you are completely deluded.

Wanting to hear the other side of the story makes me delusional?

[yongrel]

What exactly would be a story where somebody was in his own home and the police came in and shot him and it was ok? Get a grip, Amy, you are completely deluded.

And you are completely unpleasant.

[Kludge]

And they say libertarians are reactionary.....

[Fields]

Police are standing armies in all but name. While government cannot use the “real” army on the people because of the Posse Comitatus Act, they can certainly keep producing more and more policemen both state and federal to do the exact same type of tactics. This of course while arming them in full military gear.

The police do much of what British Regulars did before the Revolution. Self-written search warrants are no different that writs of assistance used to enforce the stamp act. British regulars routinely entered any home; trashed the place, and were not held accountable for damages.

At the time of the Constitution there were no policemen. Towns and counties had constables and sheriffs, while federals had marshals. These people could create posses as long as they were held accountable by civilian law. But the true law enforcement was left to the people in the form of militias.

Now there is a distinction between militias used for military usage and militias used for civilian purposes. Lord Chief Justice Mansfield’s doctrine dictated that when militias are called upon for civil action they are to be held accountable to civilian law and not military. This doctrine lasted in the United States up until around 1850’s when soldiers were used in civilian capacity but were immune to civilian law to enforce the fugitive slave act and of course they stayed there during Reconstruction until the Posse Comitatus Act was passed in 1878 and the Dick Act of 1903 phased out militias.

The point is we are treated like children. Stripped of our defenses and forced to be subjects to an all-powerful government that knows what is best for us from cradle to grave. We are not allowed to think. We are not allowed to act. Just accept the money that comes your way and shut up. Who cares about the destruction of the Constitution and the way of life the founders gave their lives to defend, they were just racist, sexist, wealthy, white, foolish men that could never understand the complex world of today. Stop worshiping the Founders and embrace uniformity and nationalism. One America. :sigh:

According to this, Posse Comitatus is void. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e81_1194653917

[Antonius Stone]

here's what I've found

Reason Magazine's writeup:
http://reason.com/blog/show/126284.html

The Arkansas Times Article on the event:
http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=68509828-1566-472d-9a68-79f43b522950

A Follow-up interview on the North Little Rock SWAT:
http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=48fc8d26-650e-4708-88ab-9df53604ce6b

The warrant:
http://www.theagitator.com/tracywarrants.pdf

[Carehn]

cant we all just get along.

Its good to be passionate about something but its much more important to be respectful. You will not win harts using pore language and insulting people even if they deserve it. It is always best to take the high ground. Pore language will alway make people thing you are stupid ...

[amy31416]

cant we all just get along.

Its good to be passionate about something but its much more important to be respectful. You will not win harts using pore language and insulting people even if they deserve it. It is always best to take the high ground. Pore language will alway make people thing you are stupid ...

Jesus...it's really time to go to sleep.

Please, mods, Jesus and everyone--take note of my restraint.

Unless. . .it's a joke, right! :) It has to be!

[Patriot123]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.

He certainly has a right to call them just that. They're not holding up their oath to the Constitution, and they shot and nearly killed a man because of it.

[Carehn]

Jesus...it's really time to go to sleep.

Please, mods, Jesus and everyone--take note of my restraint.

Unless. . .it's a joke, right! :) It has to be!

Thank you for your restraint.

[sratiug]

Wanting to hear the other side of the story makes me delusional?

No. Not being able to answer my question confirms you are delusional.

[sratiug]

And you are completely unpleasant.

You can't answer the question either? Asshole? The asshole part was unpleasant. My question to Amy was not. Asshole.

[Kludge]

You can't answer the question either? Asshole? The asshole part was unpleasant. My question to Amy was not. Asshole.

Don't be an ass. :)

[Fields]

He certainly has a right to call them just that. They're not holding up their oath to the Constitution, and they shot and nearly killed a man because of it.

Bravo.

[sluggo]

I'll tell you the thing that really burns me about this story: it comes down to money and class.

This guy evidently was living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. The cops screwed up bigtime, and KNOW that this guy did not have the bucks to defend himself in court. Had it not been for this story (thanks to REASON), chances are he'd be sitting in jail right now. And possibly, he'll still go.

It just reinforces the problem that justice can only be bought. A working class, or working poor person is totally at the mercy of the system.

[Kludge]

It just reinforces the problem that justice can only be bought. A working class, or working poor person is totally at the mercy of the system.

No war but the class war. :rolleyes:

[amy31416]

What exactly would be a story where somebody was in his own home and the police came in and shot him and it was ok? Get a grip, Amy, you are completely deluded.

Okay, you wanted an answer to your question, which I earlier chose not to answer because you had to throw in that I was delusional for no good reason.

Times when it is okay for cops to come into a home, shoot the owner and it is okay:

1. Have a warrant and reasonable knowledge or immediate experience that the person is armed and intends to shoot.

2. Have a warrant and knowledge that the person has a violent history.

3. Person in house is holding hostages or is an immediate danger to himself or others.

Notice that in most cases, I state "has a warrant." With this case and the information given, I don't know if the police had a warrant, why, or if there was reasonable cause to go into his house.

Wanting to know both sides of the story is not delusional. It's a good thing. I could play the other side and only want the cops side of the story--but that would make me hypocritical, no?

Now I see this morning there are some other links with more information, perhaps that's enough to get both sides of the story. I'm not going to jump on any "cop hating" bandwagon because some guy may or may not have been doing something.

In fact, one of the few stories where I've heard of neglect by the police was from something someone posted here about an Asian man who was fired on by the cops--the cops had the wrong address on the warrant and I think the cops should be sued.

Only wanting one side of the story is indicative of someone who already has a bias and made up their mind, no matter what the facts may be.

[DAFTEK]

http://www.bigjohngrills.com/images/EZPig.jpg

[tekrunner]

Calling the police "pigs" makes me lose all respect for you and any argument you try to advance.



LOL, Yongrel you've got the IQ of a police officer.

[pcosmar]

An isolated incident, or a rare occurrence is one thing.
This is neither rare or isolated.
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/


Kathryn Johnston

November 21, 2006—GA

Acting on a tip from a confidential informant, police conduct a no-knock raid on the home of 88 year old Kathryn Johnston.

Johnston, described by neighbors as feeble and afraid to open her door at night, opens fire on officers as they burst into her home. Three of the officers are wounded before Johnston is shot and killed.

Relatives say that Johnston lived alone, and legally owned a gun because she was fearful of intruders. She lived in the home for 17 years. Police claim that they find a small amount of marijuana in Johnston's home, but none of the cocaine, computers, money, or equipment described in the affidavit that was used to obtain a warrant.

There are now allegations of a police cover-up.


Cheryl Lynn Noel.

January 21, 2005—MD

Baltimore County, Maryland police descend on a home in the Dundalk neighborhood at around 5 a.m. on a narcotics warrant. They deploy a flashbang grenade, then quickly subdue the first-floor occupants -- a man and two young adults.

When officers enter the second-floor bedroom of Cheryl Llynn Noel, they break open the door to find the middle-aged woman in her bed, frightened, and pointing a handgun at them. One officer fires three times. Noel dies at the scene.

Friends and acquaintances described Noel as "a wonderful person," who ran a Bible study group on her lunch breaks. One man collected 200 signatures from friends, neighbors, and coworkers vouching for her character.

Officers conducted the raid after finding marijuana seeds in the Noels' garbage can.


Mary Silva

November 17, 2006—CA

On November 17, 2006, nine law enforcement agencies struck 8 different locations simultaneously. Although the main target, 21-year-old Winton resident Gisell Campos was not apprehended and only two of the seven arrested in the raids remain in jail, police are calling the operation "well worth the effort."

One of the houses raided was that of 68-year-old Mary Silva, who lives alone. Police were actually looking for Silva's next door neighbor and relative, Reginaldo Ramirez, although their warrant listed neither the address of Silva, nor that of her neighbor.

Though damages to Silva's apartment will be taken care of by the sheriff's department if it is determined that deputies made a mistake when they served the search warrant, Silva "can't stop shaking and is plagued by dreams about people knocking on her front door."

Police are assigning blame to Silva's relative who, they say, "was using some type of elderly relative to hide his true residence."


A.J. Nuckols

October 25, 2006—VA

While working as a reserve sheriff's deputy, basketball all-star, Shaquille O'Neal participated in a child pornography raid gone wrong.

After obtaining an IP address from an Internet service provider and matching that IP address to a physical address, police raided the home of A.J. Nuckols.

Nuckols and his family were "held at gunpoint, taunted, and led into the house," before the paramilitary team secured possession of electronic devices such as their DVDs, cameras and computers.

The police subsequently realized that they had raided the wrong home.

These are just a few, gathered quickly.
Even a moderately honest search will turn up many more.
And extensive search would be truly frightening.

I do try to avoid the "PIG" title. I have family and friends in LE, and they are also concerned about these issues.
It has been going down hill for some years, and it seems to be picking up speed.

[sratiug]

Okay, you wanted an answer to your question, which I earlier chose not to answer because you had to throw in that I was delusional for no good reason.

Times when it is okay for cops to come into a home, shoot the owner and it is okay:

1. Have a warrant and reasonable knowledge or immediate experience that the person is armed and intends to shoot.

2. Have a warrant and knowledge that the person has a violent history.

3. Person in house is holding hostages or is an immediate danger to himself or others.

Notice that in most cases, I state "has a warrant." With this case and the information given, I don't know if the police had a warrant, why, or if there was reasonable cause to go into his house.

Wanting to know both sides of the story is not delusional. It's a good thing. I could play the other side and only want the cops side of the story--but that would make me hypocritical, no?

Now I see this morning there are some other links with more information, perhaps that's enough to get both sides of the story. I'm not going to jump on any "cop hating" bandwagon because some guy may or may not have been doing something.

In fact, one of the few stories where I've heard of neglect by the police was from something someone posted here about an Asian man who was fired on by the cops--the cops had the wrong address on the warrant and I think the cops should be sued.

Only wanting one side of the story is indicative of someone who already has a bias and made up their mind, no matter what the facts may be.

Your #3 would be the only case that could be justified, imo. While I was in Denver a few years ago the DEA busted in on an immigrant family and shot the father of a bunch of kids to pieces in their own home. I am biased and have made up my mind. Most police are fascists, fighting the war against the people for the benefit of pharmaceutical and alcohol interests, just like our government.

Fascism can be good to stop crime, like in Saddam's Iraq.

Tell me how it could ever be justified to break in someone's home with guns blazing to confiscate a little bit of powder when there are stores all over town selling the same shit. So they are risking everyone's lives for lack of a business license or prescription. They are fighting to maintain their monopoly and will kill, bribe, lie, steal and imprison those who get in their way.

[BillyDkid]

I have to ask anyone who supports the "War on Drugs" for a single example of good that has come out of it. I can not think of a single aspect of American life that is better for it and I can think of a multitude of things that are much worse because of it. We are, apparently, a very, very stupid people.

[TheEvilDetector]

I have to ask anyone who supports the "War on Drugs" for a single example of good that has come out of it. I can not think of a single aspect of American life that is better for it and I can think of a multitude of things that are much worse because of it. We are, apparently, a very, very stupid people.

I don't think it has much to do with being stupid.

Overall the american population is no dumber than any other, at least as far as natural intelligence is concerned.

The problem is that the population is heavily manipulated from a young age and all throughout the adulthood, by popular culture, media and schools.

This is not surprising given the consolidation in media ownership over time and rigid control of public schooling by a central entity.

The above mentioned manipulation results in a populace which suffers from:

1. Political Ignorance. (Picking candidates that do not obey the supreme law, only pay lip service).
2. Narrow world view. (Us versus Them)
3. Economical Ignorance.
4. Geographical ignorance.
5. Historical Ignorance.
6. Mindless Consumerism. (Deriving Happiness from Purchases, rather than good relationships).
7. Inability to see long term consequences. (Going for short term gain always).
8. Short attention span. (Inability to focus attention)
9. Lack of Rational Thinking. (Emotions short circuiting possibility of rational thought).

I am sure there are other outcomes also..

Solution? Improve Schooling.

1. Teach students to explore ALL candidates prior to making a choice.
2. Teach students to obtain information about events from several different sources before making up ones mind.
3. Teach students economic fundamentals from different competing systems, let them form their own conclusions.
4. Teach students geography in an interactive, fun way.
5. Teach students US history without omitting politically sensitive items and add other regions' histories.
6. Teach students to value relationships with people over material goods, teach students to purchase what they need and SAVE for what they want. Avoid credit.
7. Teach students the value of patience, do the 1 marshmallow now versus 2 marshmallows later exercise and derivatives thereof.
8. Teach students the value of focus on a task, by demonstrating a link between better results and sustained concentration.
9. Teach students the value of rational thought. Talk about pros and cons and applicability.

[Antonius Stone]

If I were to measure in on the pigs controversy... I'd say that "PIGS" = Police Implementing Ground Surveillance

Honestly, I can't think of any legit law that would require pigs patrolling the street. I mean what do "cops on the beat" spend most of their time doing? Harassing people for driving too fast. Harassing people for doing drugs. Harassing people for "looking suspicious".
Are police patrols really supposed to "deter" violent crime, or are they just used to enforce unjust laws that keep a foot down on the population's neck? If there were no beat cops, murders, rapes, robberies would still be reported, but I don't think you'd get harassed for smoking marijuana cigarettes anymore.

That said, I think that the (legit) Police = Detectives, Inspectors & Investigators and we should increase their numbers. The emphasis should be on solving crime, not stepping on the people.

[BillyDkid]

I don't think it has much to do with being stupid.

Overall the american population is no dumber than any other, at least as far as natural intelligence is concerned.

In the immortal words of Forest Gump - "Stupid is as stupid does." At what point does supporting and endorsing stupid and harmful policies which are demonstrateably stupid and harmful translate into actual stupidity? No, US citizens are not uniquely or singularly stupid - it is a trait shared by much of mankind. It is either stupidity or insanity - doing more of the same thing while expecting a different outcome. What's worse is making the argument that if a policy does not work what we need to do is even more of it. Investing billions in a drug war that has caused immeasurable harm to the society, ruining hundreds of thousands of lives and creating a huge criminal subculture and vast corruption - to some that is an argument for investing trillions. I call that stupidity. At what point are American's willing to take responsibility for and ownership of their own country?

[Mach]

It's pretty simple, the cops are just the enforcers of the business, they are not there for the people, they are there for the politicians and even more so, themselves, nothing like stroking your hard up ego with a badge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6729904244308031068

[jaybone]

Michael Badnarik did his radio show about this last Friday, May16th
http://mp3.wtprn.com/Badnarik08.html