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Mongoose470
05-09-2008, 09:01 PM
Like many, I was overcome by the grief and anger of September 11. I wanted justice and revenge.

Now I feel manipulated by a neo-conservative agenda that took advantage of a nation's understandable grief and anger to beat the drums of war, expand our empire to conquering the Middle East, and to expand the power of the executive branch toward totalitarianism.

I see the prophetic irony in Bush's post 9/11 statement: "Freedom was attacked by a faceless coward." It was exactly what I wanted to hear at the time. I only saw the irony of that self fufilling prophecy when Bush and the true faceless cowards attacked freedom via the UNPATRIOTIC ACT. Like most people, I did not want to own up to our provacative role in the Middle East. Now I look at my own fear which led me to follow them.

I am extremely worried about our once great nation. We have declared a war without end: The War on Terrorism. We have embarked on a perilous journey of taking our civil liberties away one by one. We are on the slippery slope that enlightened others tried to warn me about.

I haven't lost hope though. Some say the damage cannot be undone: That once a nation suspends civil liberties, no action outside of violent revolution will ever get them back. Some say we might as well ride out the storm we created in the Middle East because we have already opened Pandora's Box. I COMPLETELY DISAGREE! The legacy of our founding fathers was a system of government, the ONLY SYSTEM, that allows us to undo our own evil and shortsightedness. Our founding fathers weren't virtuous or psychic. They STRIVED for virtue and left us a Constitution and checks and balances that encouraged the striving for virtue while retaining civil liberties. WE UNDID SLAVERY! Vietnam, despite their shortcomings, has a fairly amicable relationship with us now. We pulled out of Lebanon. Though our system will make unwise decisions, through enlightened minds and the revolutionary spirit within all Americans, we can undo the unconstitutional authority we unwisely gave to our Commander in Chief to wage war without congressional approval. We can undo the socialist state our politicians have strived for since the New Deal. We can win back our civil liberties because as revolutionaries, we simply refuse to have our freedoms stolen from us. Men like Thoreau who refused to pay taxes to a system that enslaved people of another race. Women like Rosa Parks who refused to be treated as a second class citizen. The suffrage movement that forced government to recognize women as having equal political say. They were called dissidents then. Now they are role models and true patriots of the revolution we started in 1776. Under our Constitution, history is replete with examples of undoing evil and oppression. It's occurring as we speak. True patriots are defending the right of the homosexual to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by fighting for their right to marry. I am straight as an arrow but two gays marrying does absolutely no harm to me or society. Nor does it infringe upon my rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Most of all, I have overcome my own shortsightedness thanks to our wonderous system that encourages free thought: Questioning thought

Our system does allow for shortsightedness and oppression to prosper, but only for a time. It is an unavoidable consequence of our republic but liberty will prevail. It will prevail as long as we are still willing to fight for it as kindred revolutionary spirits. It will prevail as long as we continue to strive for greater virtue. It will prevail as long as we keep the lessons of our forefathers at heart: Freedom is never freely granted, it must be fought for and won because the enemies of liberty are resolved to keep their power.

There will always be naysayers. Those who have lost faith in our ability to self govern. Those who believe our problems are too complicated for a self governing society to resolve. Those who believe that small and select intellectual elite must be granted total power in order to solve our complicated problems. They are quick to point out our shortsightedness and shortcomings of the past as we struggled in the infancy of our revolution. They scoff at the multitude of examples where our self governing system overcame its own shortcomings. They even deny the progress our nation has made. To them, freedom and liberty is an antiquated and farcial concept that only prevails in fairy tales.

During World War Two, civil liberties were virtually abolished and the press was completely controlled. In essence, we were a totalitarian state. We undid that. We won our civil liberties back. Today the press can be critical of our foreign policy. Good, loving, patriotic Muslims are not rounded up into concentration camps. Contrary to the naysayers, the vast majority of American Muslims have remained unswerving in their respect of individual liberty and their desire for a secure homeland. Moreover, brave souls oppose the war and remain free.

There will always be courageous revolutionaries like Ron Paul, who through word and deed, took action against the misguided efforts to usurp freedom and plunge us into unconstitutional and unethical war. He and others weren't deterred by the fear of being labeled a traitor because they know history will acquit them. They have faith in our system. They know the revolutionary spirit is still alive and will rise against the advancing torrent of oppression and fear of totalitarian traitors. Today 70% of Americans oppose the war. 70% oppose the continual suspension of civil liberties. As Americans and kindred revolutionary spirits, we are patient but not forever toiling. We were momentarily divided but are uniting under our root similarities. Ron Paul is the only candidate who can unite our country because he is the only candidate who fights for what Americans overwhelmingly desire: Peace and liberty. Peace through liberty. He can unite us under the banner: This far, too far, and no further. He has issued the metaphorical call to arms and we must fight. Freedom will not be freely granted, but it can and will be won.

Our faith will be tested. We must resist the temptation of discouragement. We must stand firm against the self fufilling prophecy that we shouldn't vote for him because he won't win. We must resist the temptation to settle for the lesser evil just because he might have a better chance of winning. Though Ron Paul may not win this battle for the election, the war for liberty is winnable. In the court of public opinion where the heart and soul of America is the judge, we've only just begun.

Thank you for reading this.

amy31416
05-09-2008, 09:03 PM
Sure. C'mon in. I was raised by a neocon, I got past it.

You may even be able to add some serious value by giving us some insight into the neocon ways. :)

(Be warned, we're a peculiar bunch, to put it nicely.)

The One
05-09-2008, 09:04 PM
My name is The One, and I'm a recovering neo-con.

brandon
05-09-2008, 09:11 PM
Thank you for reading this.

Thank you for posting this. Well said.

Ron Paul wont win the nomination, but we have other plans to advance the cause of freedom and American tradition.

The best thing you can do is start attending your local republican meetings and remind them what it really means to be a republican. Tell them that the conservative postion is to be against policing the world and in favor of maximum liberty. Let them know that the socialist war mongers have infiltrated the party.

And congrats on being open minded enough to realize this. The bad news is the more you learn the more repulsed you will become.

ronpaulblogsdotcom
05-09-2008, 09:12 PM
Of course you are welcome. In fact people like you are needed and we need to understand your feelings and concerns and find answers for them in our cause.

We can be an insular group of people that retreat back into our safe issues and groups but we will gain nothing in doing so. We must spring forth, recruit all that care about what is right and invite them into a large unorganized group that cares about them and America and will so no matter what happens, what buildings fall, and what corporafascism tells us we should think.

WRellim
05-09-2008, 09:17 PM
A bit late on the join up... but WELCOME BACK to the Republic!

I understand the "emotional appeal" and the desire for justice AND revenge...

I remember being asked ON 9/11/2001 what I though we should do if/when we DID figure out who did it... and I said in quick gut reaction response: "Nuke the B**tards back to the stone age!" :mad:

Later in the day (maybe it was a week) I "sobered up" and realized that was just an emotional response -- and that once the BRAIN was engaged it did NOT make any sense to do anything of the kind.... and that it was a "once shot" deal, no one would ever be able to play "Hijack the Airplane" again. (And so the whole TSA thing is just "showtime" for the masses, in reality it is both worthless AND unnecessary!)

Then, within about a year or so thereafter, I began to wonder if maybe a much SMALLER, tactical nuke would serve instead... targeted at the TRUE cause of the problem ...an obscure ranch in Texas. :eek:

But of course THAT is an emotional response as well. Chimpy wasn't smart enough to do that, and he (and the whole set of Li'l Rascals including the "Penguin") were just plain old opportunists and criminal profiteering politicians, deserving of some regular old "Nuremburg" legal justice (though I don't expect that either). :(


P.S. GOOD REMINDERS on the historical facts that this country has seen this type of "totalitarian" abuses of our Constitution in the past (whether it was Adams, Lincoln, Wilson, or FDR) and we DID turn things back around. Gonna take some work to do it again this time... hopefully we're not TOO far gone, and hopefully not TOO much of America's citizens have been "suckered" -- guess we'll have to see.

PatriotOne
05-09-2008, 09:30 PM
Ex NeoCons are the best. In fact we want all of them :D. Very nice post btw.

ronpaulhawaii
05-09-2008, 09:34 PM
Is a neo-con convert welcome?


Of course !!! :)

E komo mai me aloha

Kludge
05-09-2008, 09:51 PM
It's nice to know we're getting the attention of the closet libertarians within the GOP. Excellent post.

pinkmandy
05-09-2008, 10:15 PM
Welcome!!!!!

Nice post. I think it takes a much bigger person to stand up and say "I was wrong" than it does to keep going w/the flow. Many of us were "wrong" once and had to swallow the bitter red pill. It's no fun when you realize you were duped and there are much bigger forces at work than what is presented on the surface. (((hugs)))

Now get pissed off and fight back. We need every single Patriot we can find to help expose these bastards and return our country to freedom and peace.

123tim
05-09-2008, 10:16 PM
Welcome from another ex NeoCon.

DrYongrel
05-09-2008, 10:17 PM
Hiya!

Mongoose470
05-09-2008, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the welcoming replies.

Yes ya'll are probably a peculiar bunch but it just shows me how powerful the message of personal liberty and peace is. It has unified a diverse and peculiar bunch, whom I suspect have some opinions that are diametrically opposed. But we all unify on the tenets of liberty and peace.

My mindset as a neo-con? First of all I truly cared about our country and liberties. Remember that. I wasn't some evil fascist monster praying for death, war and totalitarianism. I wasn't some illiterate redneck wanting to exterminate Muslims, embark on a Christian crusade while masturbating to my rifle and I certainly wasn't some effete snobbish intellectual that scorns the "lesser masses" and considers them a cancer to be crushed in authoritarian rage. I believed that we might have to suspend some liberties to maintain the greater whole because of the nuclear threat. Nobody wants to see a nuclear weapon detonate in New York City. If one nuclear weapon detonates you can say hello to martial law. I knew that radical, militant Islam hated us. I was convinced of our moral authority and that some force may be necessary for us to prevent world wide holocaust. All of those fears were used to pervert Barry Goldwater's faith in "peace through strength." I allowed it to be perverted by the neo-con agenda to "Peace Through Aggression." I was manipulated by group think. Individually people can be extraordinarily intelligent but in groups they can be frightfully stupid and ignorant. In our moral superiority, I justifed all of the actions that provoked the despicable attack by Al Qaeda which killed 3000 innocent civilians in a fever of revenge that I thought was patriotism. I knew better. Moreover, it's counter-intuitive that doing non-intervention might be the best. Most of us are programmed from youth that intervention is the only thing that brings about change. WE JUST HAVE TO DO SOMETHING: EYE FOR AN EYE!

I could elaborate further but I will close. Just remember that to conquer your enemies, you must know them. Not even the Nazis were the mythical monsters that the media and academics portray. Neither are the neo-cons or even the radical militant Muslims. Many kiss their children goodbye. They weep with their loved ones. They are aware of their mortality. They work to provide for their families. Many truly believed they had good intentions at heart. Even Bush, somewhere in that pea brain, has some soul left.

However it is plainly evident that peace through aggression isn't just unconstitutional or unethical...

It's plain wrong and simply doesn't work. War brings about war. Suspension of liberty leads to war and murder. Intuition makes for poor guidance. Intuition says the more we try to live beyond our means, the more prosperous we will be. reality though is far more counter-intuitive than we believe.

However we are certainly not too far gone. Look at the progress of the former Soviet Union.

OptionsTrader
05-09-2008, 10:24 PM
Welcome Mongoose.

amy31416
05-09-2008, 10:30 PM
Yet another very good post Mongoose. Great to have you with us.

Mongoose470
05-09-2008, 11:09 PM
I started the good fight with my own family. Six were going to vote for Hucksterbee. After some discussion, they all voted Ron Paul. Note that these were fairly devout Christians (I'm agnostic.) Liberty and peace was more unifying and persuasive than powerful superstition.

My brother, an ardent Obnama supporter, is coming around. I'm working on his belief in Obama as an instrument of change and hope: That the change he proposes is superficial and is nothing more than continuing the same socialist and interventionlist policy we've had since the New Deal. Now I'm working on Obama as a snakeoil selling conartist. I use simple fact as ammunition. Eventually action trumps words and he's beginning to see how incongruent Obama's actions as Senator are with his continual usage of his catchphrases of "change" and "hope."

And yes, I'm going to be more involved with the Republican Party. But I look upon the neo-cons as the proverbial prodigal sons. A landslide loss for the Republicans in the general presidential election might be the wakeup call they need for a return to true conservativsm. The brand of conservatism that made us the greatest nation on Earth and the most respected.

wd4freedom
05-09-2008, 11:31 PM
Whether neocon, dem, old guard repub, or socialist leftist, if you live in the USA, you fundamentally know that you as a person have freedom to speak the truth.

As the light is shed more and more on the truth, you will see a vast number of Americans re-awakening to who we really are, and what we really stand for. Ron Paul was the spark. Now that the fire has been lit, I have faith that the USA will restore herself to greatness once again. Our system of self-government ingeniously allows the truth to rise to the top even when poor decisions have been made in the past.

nate895
05-09-2008, 11:32 PM
They better accept them, because I'm one.

Conza88
05-10-2008, 01:53 AM
To the STILL neo-CON-ised people, send them too

www.ronpauliswrong.com :D

rancher89
05-10-2008, 07:31 AM
Welcome aboard mongoose, nice posts.


Mongoose took the "red pill!":D

dirknb@hotmail.com
05-10-2008, 07:33 AM
Bienvenidos!

kathy88
05-10-2008, 08:32 AM
Wonderful posts. Welcome and thank you for joining the forces.

Bruno
05-10-2008, 08:50 AM
Thank you for reading this.

Welcome!

Now read this, if you haven't already:

The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul. :)

I'm sure your family and friends will enjoy it, too. Who else better than Ron Paul himself to blast holes in every neocon argument?

Allen72289
05-10-2008, 10:57 AM
What made you turn?

Cowlesy
05-10-2008, 11:04 AM
Welcome!

They say "9/11 changed everything", well, no, "Giuliani vs. Paul in May 2007 changed everything" for this ex-neocon.

Crickett
05-10-2008, 11:20 AM
As Hitler's Reich-Marshall Hermann Goering at his trial in Nuremburg after WWII said: "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Glad you see through it. We must keep our Constitution for our country, and all the other countries that used to look toward us for liberty.

kathy88
05-10-2008, 11:47 AM
Wow, Crickett.... I've never seen that quote before. That defines the govenment's attitude, doesn't it.

Mongoose470
05-10-2008, 12:23 PM
What made you turn?


Let's just say the Unpatriotic Act wasn't a magic bullet, but a slowly mutating virus. I've always had a special place in my heart for civil liberties. Fact after fact piled up and I started to examine my own views. It started with my views on the particulars like the Quagmire in Iraq, wiretapping, the debt and expanded to more examination to the abstract like freedom, monetary welfare (borrowing is a form of welfare as is the creation of money out of thin air,) interventionism, etc.

I found myself like Gorbachev. Ideally he still believes in communism but simply realized that it doesn't work. Now I'm finding out why interventionism, empire building, nation building doesn't work. Paul's fiscal policy always appealed to me as did his social policy. I always had skepticism of the monetary welfare state and our form of currency as well.

Morpheus, I know you promised me only the truth, but did it have to be this bad???

Christianalwaysg124RP
05-10-2008, 02:06 PM
With all the Ron Paul Revolution shirts, we should have something in the back of them. "I am a recovering neoconservative" or "I am a recovering neocon." Would be cool:)

Mongoose470
05-10-2008, 03:17 PM
As Hitler's Reich-Marshall Hermann Goering at his trial in Nuremburg after WWII said: "Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Glad you see through it. We must keep our Constitution for our country, and all the other countries that used to look toward us for liberty.

Examples here in America.

The Gulf of Tonkin where an invisible ship fired an invisible torpedo that missed.

Saddam's invisible WMD cache and his invisible plans to bomb America in more 9/11 type attacks with SCUD missiles that you KNOW will miss. His invisible nuclear program that consisted of a book entitled: Nuclear Weapons for Dummies.

Iran's IMMINENT nuclear threat. Oh they threatened Israel which means they threatened us.

Funny how we aren't beating the drums on North Korea who honestly did test a nuclear bomb! Not that I think we hould invade North Korea because I get the impression they truly want us to just stay the hell out of their business and leave them alone. Ah but there's their invisible nuclear KMart.

Allen72289
05-10-2008, 05:11 PM
Let's just say the Unpatriotic Act wasn't a magic bullet, but a slowly mutating virus. I've always had a special place in my heart for civil liberties. Fact after fact piled up and I started to examine my own views. It started with my views on the particulars like the Quagmire in Iraq, wiretapping, the debt and expanded to more examination to the abstract like freedom, monetary welfare (borrowing is a form of welfare as is the creation of money out of thin air,) interventionism, etc.

I found myself like Gorbachev. Ideally he still believes in communism but simply realized that it doesn't work. Now I'm finding out why interventionism, empire building, nation building doesn't work. Paul's fiscal policy always appealed to me as did his social policy. I always had skepticism of the monetary welfare state and our form of currency as well.

Morpheus, I know you promised me only the truth, but did it have to be this bad???

Ah, welcome by the way.

What drives a neocon?

Mongoose470
05-10-2008, 05:28 PM
Ah, welcome by the way.

What drives a neocon?

Why an SUV of course!

amy31416
05-10-2008, 05:38 PM
Why an SUV of course!

:D Preferably a Humvee for those looking to make up for lacking in other arenas...

Allen72289
05-10-2008, 05:53 PM
Lolololol.

No, his or her motivation..

Mongoose470
05-10-2008, 05:55 PM
:D Preferably a Humvee for those looking to make up for lacking in other arenas...

Not if it's column shifted!

Oops, I'm going to hell now!

amy31416
05-10-2008, 06:15 PM
Not if it's column shifted!

Oops, I'm going to hell now!

C'mon, you're agnostic. There's only a remote chance that you're going to hell. :)

Mongoose470
05-10-2008, 06:31 PM
C'mon, you're agnostic. There's only a remote chance that you're going to hell. :)

:) no No NO! Agnostics just doubt God therefore I see just a remote chance of me going to heaven. The Devil is different matter.

amy31416
05-10-2008, 07:16 PM
:) no No NO! Agnostics just doubt God therefore I see just a remote chance of me going to heaven. The Devil is different matter.

C'mon, after that last comment your remote chance of going to heaven is far, far more remote than your chances of going to hell. I think. Maybe.

Mongoose470
05-11-2008, 11:59 PM
C'mon, after that last comment your remote chance of going to heaven is far, far more remote than your chances of going to hell. I think. Maybe.

Well this could be a topic for dissertation. The agnostic view of hell and The devil.

Body:

I don't know!

Thank you kind members of the board.

amy31416
05-12-2008, 03:46 AM
Well this could be a topic for dissertation. The agnostic view of hell and The devil.

Body:

I don't know!

Thank you kind members of the board.

Ahh, you go the very simple route--I'd throw in a little of this:

Statistically and evidentially speaking, it is highly unlikely that hell or the devil exists. However, as we all know, there is no way of knowing while still laying claim to being a living, breathing life form on this plane.

Not only do I not know, most esteemed board, none of us know.

(The board likes a little verbage for good measure, hey, they're academics!)

Bryan
05-12-2008, 11:11 AM
Sorry for the late reply, but great posts Mongoose. Of course, certainly as you have seen, neo-con converts are very welcome- I'm one myself. :)

Mongoose470
05-13-2008, 11:40 PM
Ahh, you go the very simple route--I'd throw in a little of this:

Statistically and evidentially speaking, it is highly unlikely that hell or the devil exists. However, as we all know, there is no way of knowing while still laying claim to being a living, breathing life form on this plane.

Not only do I not know, most esteemed board, none of us know.

(The board likes a little verbage for good measure, hey, they're academics!)

I've never been one for thesarasaurus enhanced effete snobbery manifesting in pseudo-intellectual sophistry. IOW I won't say they're stercoraceous, I'll just say they're full of shit.

amy31416
05-14-2008, 07:50 AM
I've never been one for thesarasaurus enhanced effete snobbery manifesting in pseudo-intellectual sophistry. IOW I won't say they're stercoraceous, I'll just say they're full of shit.

Dude, you are so missing out. It's way fun to mock pseudo-intellectuals, especially when they don't realize it. And they rarely do, given how self-absorbed they are.

But the blunt "you are full of shit" also has it's place in the conversation. Usually the end of it. :)

Bern
05-14-2008, 08:29 AM
It is my profound hope that ex-neocons will be like ex-smokers - extremely sensitive to the issue and growing in numbers.

jmdrake
05-14-2008, 10:48 AM
Excellent post! After all of the disappointments in the campaign reading stuff like this makes it all worth it. This campaign isn't just about trying to get one man elected as president. It's about waking up an entire nation to what's happening around is. This is something that happens one "ex neocon" or "ex socialist" at a time.

Regards,

John M. Drake

anaconda
05-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Welcome Mongoose 470!

You are forgiven!

Mongoose470
05-16-2008, 03:34 PM
Dude, you are so missing out. It's way fun to mock pseudo-intellectuals, especially when they don't realize it. And they rarely do, given how self-absorbed they are.

But the blunt "you are full of shit" also has it's place in the conversation. Usually the end of it. :)

hehehehehe! I'd pay to see Ron Paul tell Obama "you're full of shit!"

amy31416
05-16-2008, 04:39 PM
hehehehehe! I'd pay to see Ron Paul tell Obama "you're full of shit!"

I think Ron Paul is more of a "horsefeathers" kind of guy, just can't imagine him saying anything more risque than "gosh!" :)

Mongoose470
05-16-2008, 04:58 PM
I think Ron Paul is more of a "horsefeathers" kind of guy, just can't imagine him saying anything more risque than "gosh!" :)

But he's also Texican. He's gotta have a closet potty mouth.

Give him Give 'em Hell Harry Truman's mouth...

Mongoose470
05-16-2008, 05:14 PM
Excellent post! After all of the disappointments in the campaign reading stuff like this makes it all worth it. This campaign isn't just about trying to get one man elected as president. It's about waking up an entire nation to what's happening around is. This is something that happens one "ex neocon" or "ex socialist" at a time.

Regards,

John M. Drake

I became interested in Ron Paul when he wrote his essay: "The War on Drugs is a War on Doctors." I'm watching my mother live out the rest of her life in chronic pain. She has two confirmed dislocated disks and arthritis in her neck, a potent combination. It cannot be cured, it will not go away, it cannot be repaired and the arthritis will only get worse. All that can be done is to make her comfortable. She has managed her pain medication fairly well (oxycodone.) She had to nearly beg to be put on that as the other medications weren't effective. However she happened to have called in for a refill two days early, unknowingly. The only time in twelve months she did. She damn near lost her prescription because of fear of addiction. I told the doctor that chronic pain is far more debilitating to cognitive processes than addiction is and that it was an honest mistake. Other haven't been as lucky but most are in the position she is in. Like all drugs, you build tolerance and they simply will not increase the dosage. She still manages her medication as prescribed but suffers as a result.

It saddens and frustrates me that we have the technology to manage pain but the War on Drugs and lawsuits prevents doctors from using it. Regarding the treatment of pain, because of government influence, we are worse off than the days you could simply buy opium at the corner drug store. Now we are spending billions researching how we can make drugs less addictive rather than more effective at treating pain! Let em suffer but dammit don't you let them get a buzz! If I were in my mother's situation, I'd take addiction over pain. She's 66 and won't live much longer anyway.

The War on Drugs might be the most inhumane, unjust war we have waged.

LibertyEagle
05-17-2008, 09:24 AM
I became interested in Ron Paul when he wrote his essay: "The War on Drugs is a War on Doctors." I'm watching my mother live out the rest of her life in chronic pain. She has two confirmed dislocated disks and arthritis in her neck, a potent combination. It cannot be cured, it will not go away, it cannot be repaired and the arthritis will only get worse. All that can be done is to make her comfortable. She has managed her pain medication fairly well (oxycodone.) She had to nearly beg to be put on that as the other medications weren't effective. However she happened to have called in for a refill two days early, unknowingly. The only time in twelve months she did. She damn near lost her prescription because of fear of addiction. I told the doctor that chronic pain is far more debilitating to cognitive processes than addiction is and that it was an honest mistake. Other haven't been as lucky but most are in the position she is in. Like all drugs, you build tolerance and they simply will not increase the dosage. She still manages her medication as prescribed but suffers as a result.

It saddens and frustrates me that we have the technology to manage pain but the War on Drugs and lawsuits prevents doctors from using it. Regarding the treatment of pain, because of government influence, we are worse off than the days you could simply buy opium at the corner drug store. Now we are spending billions researching how we can make drugs less addictive rather than more effective at treating pain! Let em suffer but dammit don't you let them get a buzz! If I were in my mother's situation, I'd take addiction over pain. She's 66 and won't live much longer anyway.

The War on Drugs might be the most inhumane, unjust war we have waged.

Try to get her to a Pain Management Doctor/Clinic. Ask around first. If you find a good one, it will make getting the medication she needs, much easier and she won't be hassled. That's all they do and they aren't scared to prescribe what is needed. They also know the latest and greatest techniques and medication.

Sixty-six is not old. A lot of people live into their 80's and 90's these days. That's a very long time if you're in horrendous pain.

amy31416
05-17-2008, 09:35 AM
I became interested in Ron Paul when he wrote his essay: "The War on Drugs is a War on Doctors." I'm watching my mother live out the rest of her life in chronic pain. She has two confirmed dislocated disks and arthritis in her neck, a potent combination. It cannot be cured, it will not go away, it cannot be repaired and the arthritis will only get worse. All that can be done is to make her comfortable. She has managed her pain medication fairly well (oxycodone.) She had to nearly beg to be put on that as the other medications weren't effective. However she happened to have called in for a refill two days early, unknowingly. The only time in twelve months she did. She damn near lost her prescription because of fear of addiction. I told the doctor that chronic pain is far more debilitating to cognitive processes than addiction is and that it was an honest mistake. Other haven't been as lucky but most are in the position she is in. Like all drugs, you build tolerance and they simply will not increase the dosage. She still manages her medication as prescribed but suffers as a result.

It saddens and frustrates me that we have the technology to manage pain but the War on Drugs and lawsuits prevents doctors from using it. Regarding the treatment of pain, because of government influence, we are worse off than the days you could simply buy opium at the corner drug store. Now we are spending billions researching how we can make drugs less addictive rather than more effective at treating pain! Let em suffer but dammit don't you let them get a buzz! If I were in my mother's situation, I'd take addiction over pain. She's 66 and won't live much longer anyway.

The War on Drugs might be the most inhumane, unjust war we have waged.

This stuff is infuriating and it's just one example of pushing a regular citizen to try to go illegal routes to get the pain managed.

Try a pain management clinic as suggested above though, I'm not sure how good they are, but it's worth a try.

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 04:32 PM
This stuff is infuriating and it's just one example of pushing a regular citizen to try to go illegal routes to get the pain managed.

Try a pain management clinic as suggested above though, I'm not sure how good they are, but it's worth a try.

She goes to the local pain clinic. Their treatment is three shots of steroids a year, no more.

She is one of the more "fortunate" cases. However, she will build a tolerance AND her condition is progressive.

Ron Paul pointed out a frightening trend in pain clinics. Basically, they too are getting away from prescribing narcotic pain medication. What with the DEA wanting to prosecute doctors as dope dealers, and lawsuits.

The DEA is your doctor.

EDIT: You're right about illegal means. As an economic rule of thumb, ANY RESTRICTION PLACED UPON THE SUPPLY OF A PRODUCT IN DEMAND WILL ALWAYS RESULT IN A BLACKMARKET!

amy31416
05-17-2008, 04:36 PM
My mother just turned 65 and is retiring in about 7 months, I worry about stuff like that for her too.

The drug war is way, way out of control. Makes me want to start growing poppies.

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 04:43 PM
The DEA turned its attention to doctors because the paper trail is already there! All they have to do is "prove" the medication was presribed needlessly or excessively.

The DEA is our doctor.

I hope your mother never has to be at the mercy of a doctor more concerned with covering his own ass rather than making his patient comfortable and healthier. If I have to hear "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" again, I'll puke.

It's not the doctor's fault, it is solely the fault of tyrannical government. Alas our government is more concerned with "those poor children" than our seniors. With regard to government and seniors, their attitude is "hurry up and die."

ronpaulhawaii
05-17-2008, 04:55 PM
The DEA turned its attention to doctors because the paper trail is already there! All they have to do is "prove" the medication was presribed needlessly or excessively.

The DEA is our doctor.

I hope your mother never has to be at the mercy of a doctor more concerned with covering his own ass rather than making his patient comfortable and healthier. If I have to hear "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" again, I'll puke.

It's not the doctor's fault, it is solely the fault of tyrannical government. Alas our government is more concerned with "those poor children" than our seniors. With regard to government and seniors, their attitude is "hurry up and die."

I feel what you are saying and hope the best for your family. If my Dad had been "allowed" to find comfort, I would not have been "glad:(:confused::(" when he finally left...

So sad...

Here's to hoping for a miracle; for you, and us all...

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 06:39 PM
I feel what you are saying and hope the best for your family. If my Dad had been "allowed" to find comfort, I would not have been "glad:(:confused::(" when he finally left...

So sad...

Here's to hoping for a miracle; for you, and us all...

Thank you. I am grateful that my mother hasn't had the misfortune that others have encountered. To be fair to her doctor, he did listen. It took a little convincing, but her doctor supported her and she is relatively comfortable. He allowed her a stronger dosage. Others have more woeful tales. Some have doctors who are not so compassionate. Some have become addicted, though for a rational reason, to the point where they take more than prescribed (Note that I don't call that abuse if the person is trying to eliminate pain, which is the purpose of the medication.) Most do so because it is inevitable that tolerance will increase and doctors are so unwilling to upgrade to a stronger medication or increase the dosage. Many are cut off by their doctor to not only face the pain, they face withdrawl. Federal law prohibits prescribing narcotic medication to treat withdrawl. When you're cut off, it's cold turkey.

In a better world, we'd have non addictive, non narcotic medication that is more effective at relieving pain than narcotic medication and I'm 100% in support of that goal.

Unshackle our doctors I say. It's not a sin to feel high when the alternative is excruciating and mentally debilitating pain. For some, they'll seek the Kevorkian alternative (whom I think is a bit strange, but is a saint.)

If you can find them, read Ron Paul's essays on how the war on drugs has evolved into a war on doctors. True conservatives lack compassion and empathy? Not at all. His opposition to the War on Drugs is motivated, in part, by compassion.

Grimnir Wotansvolk
05-17-2008, 09:56 PM
Almost the entirety of my mother's side of the family, at least those who I begrudgingly spend most of my time around, are neo-cons. From my experience...neo-cons will only listen to one another. I could convince them all that fusilli pasta makes small children implode if only I agreed with their views.

So a neo-con convert is perhaps more valuable than a trillion libertarians/constitutionalists/classical liberals/true conservatives/potheads/peaceniks/galgamacks. You're our ticket to McCain's support base.

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:03 PM
Almost the entirety of my mother's side of the family, at least those who I begrudgingly spend most of my time around, are neo-cons. From my experience...neo-cons will only listen to one another. I could convince them all that fusilli pasta makes small children implode if only I agreed with their views.

So a neo-con convert is perhaps more valuable than a trillion libertarians/constitutionalists/classical liberals/true conservatives/potheads/peaceniks/galgamacks. You're our ticket to McCain's support base.

Grimmy, you make some sense. Many of our best are former neocons. I'm not saying we should pander to them, but they have great insight into the typical GOP mindset that the libertarians, independents, liberals and anarchists do not.

P.S. Mongoose, can I get you a cup of coffee? Anything? :)

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 10:04 PM
Don't give up.

It may seem nobody is listening, but I did. Liberty and peace is a POWERFUL message.

If you managed to get one person to see things from a different perspective, if only for a moment, you have planted the seed.

You give me too much credit. I am only one man. A truly wise man would've seen right through the crap post 9/11.

Edit: Amy, you may, anytime. I prefer same day shipping on my mocha 8^)

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:10 PM
Edit: Amy, you may, anytime. I prefer same day shipping on my mocha 8^)

Mocha? Are you sure you're a former neocon? A mocha, unless it has more than three shots of espresso in it, is definitely a commie coffee. :)

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 10:13 PM
Mocha? Are you sure you're a former neocon? A mocha, unless it has more than three shots of espresso in it, is definitely a commie coffee. :)

I'm a three shot man. Such is a manly man's drink, ala prune juice for the Klingon!

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:14 PM
I'm a three shot man. Such is a manly man's drink, ala prune juice for the Klingon!

Okay then. You had me worried there for a few minutes.

That shit is like prune juice, isn't it. . . .yikes!

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 10:17 PM
Okay then. You had me worried there for a few minutes.

That shit is like prune juice, isn't it. . . .yikes!

It gives you one helluva first morning shit like prune juice does...

ewwwwwwwwww!

My apologies for the scare. I take great pride in my machismo! :)

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:24 PM
It gives you one helluva first morning shit like prune juice does...

ewwwwwwwwww!

My apologies for the scare. I take great pride in my machismo! :)

No worries, anyone who talks about taking a dump and the promotion of said dump via chemical means should not have their masculinity called into question.

Man, it's getting late. :)

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 10:27 PM
Aw don't be such a girly girl. Besides this is bringing pleasant contrast to the monotony of the evening.

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:32 PM
Aw don't be such a girly girl. Besides this is bringing pleasant contrast to the monotony of the evening.

Hey man, I'm a Republican now, I'm allowed to be as girly as I want to be, right? Aren't Republican women the "stay at home and have babies" type? (I mean aside from Anne Coulter--I'm not convinced she's female.

As soon as I registered Republican, I completely forgot how to change oil. :)

Kludge
05-17-2008, 10:33 PM
Hey man, I'm a Republican now, I'm allowed to be as girly as I want to be, right? Aren't Republican women the "stay at home and have babies" type? (I mean aside from Anne Coulter--I'm not convinced she's female.

As soon as I registered Republican, I completely forgot how to change oil. :)

Ann Coulter's such a hardass.... I love her, and hate her. I think I should propose.

Who else could say that "Christians are perfected Jews" on MSM?

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:36 PM
Ann Coulter's such a hardass.... I love her, and hate her. I think I should propose.

Who else could say that "Christians are perfected Jews" on MSM?

Go ahead and propose, just wear a cup.

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Hey man, I'm a Republican now, I'm allowed to be as girly as I want to be, right? Aren't Republican women the "stay at home and have babies" type? (I mean aside from Anne Coulter--I'm not convinced she's female.

As soon as I registered Republican, I completely forgot how to change oil. :)

Oh you know the republican male stereotype. Not until you get permission!

BTW: I did have my mancard revoked recently because I rejected the notion of the Male Genetic Superiority Factor.

When I converted from neo-conservatism to true conservatism, I had to ditch my entire Guns and Ammo centerfold editions, not that I'm for gun control mind you. However I must give you credit because most female converts have to relearn the art of shaving legs.

I agree with you about Frau Ann. It's quite intimidating to a truly macho male knowing she may be more...errrr....manhood endowed????

amy31416
05-17-2008, 10:57 PM
Oh you know the republican male stereotype. Not until you get permission!

BTW: I did have my mancard revoked recently because I rejected the notion of the Male Genetic Superiority Factor.

When I converted from neo-conservatism to true conservatism, I had to ditch my entire Guns and Ammo centerfold editions, not that I'm for gun control mind you. However I must give you credit because most female converts have to relearn the art of shaving legs.

I agree with you about Frau Ann. It's quite intimidating to a truly macho male knowing she may be more...errrr....manhood endowed????

Well, may I have permission to understand the male Republican stereotype, pretty please?

Ann/Anne is much more manly than McCain/Bush/Cheney and Rove combined, that's for sure. She has the courage to call 9/11 widows out for the money-sucking leeches they are. Obviously, they planned their husband's demise all along. Evil witches.

I know how to shave my legs and my armpits, but it ain't purty. Where'd I put those hedgetrimmers?

Okay, it's officially bedtime pour moi.

Until we meet again. . .

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 11:01 PM
Ann Coulter's such a hardass.... I love her, and hate her. I think I should propose.

Johns Hopkins can help you out because I think he opposes gay marriage.

Granted though, Ann would be a challenge and I do like women who are capable of challenging me...

However I prefer to not have a mudhole stomped in me

Mongoose470
05-17-2008, 11:11 PM
Well, may I have permission to understand the male Republican stereotype, pretty please?

Sure! Turkey pot pie, coke mirror, NOW! ;)


Ann/Anne is much more manly than McCain/Bush/Cheney and Rove combined, that's for sure.

Richard Simmons has more sack than Moe, Larry, Curly and Shemp.

Bonsoir mon ami. Sweet dreams.

Mongoose470
05-18-2008, 12:34 AM
On a less facetous note:

I would not presume to represent the mindset of the neo-conservative. I can only share my experience with honesty. I've always been my own man. I did not fit neatly into the neo-conservative stereotype.

As Amy loves to jest about at my expense :D I like Star Trek.

I have been agnostic for years however I do not believe the seperation of church and state was meant to be absolute. I defer to the Constitution: Congress shall pass no law respecting religion.

I've always held that women should be equals under law. However I am not so ignorant to presume that men and women are the same. I embrace feminism however today it's more ism than feminine. I am comfortable in my masculine skin. I respect feminine strength and see nothing degrading in a woman who chooses a more traditional female role. It's her choice. I still encourage those women to seek an education in case they may need to be financially independent. Financial independence is correlated to personal independence.

I've always been a social liberal in the literal sense of the word. Liberal is derived from the word liberty. For instance the idea of homosexuality is repulsive to me and yes they should be allowed to marry, without question! To me the Constitution was intended to protect our right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and marriage is a huge part of the pursuit of happiness.

I am against abortion but it should not be a federal or constitutional issue. I won't get into the "is it life or not argument." I do hold that a fetus has clear potential for life. To me it is a medicinal issue. Want an abortion? You should have a medical need for it otherwise it is little different than murder according to the laws of the states. I even have issues with aborting a fetus conceived of rape. Who are we, so wise, to rob the potential for life just because the dad is undeserving of the same? However I concede, in the case of rape, that my moral, ethical position is uncertain in the case of rape and perhaps abortion in general. I'll defer to the wiser among us.

Regarding birth control? It has always been fine by me. A fetus has a high potential for life, not sperm. 7 billion sperm will die in the average male's life without birth control so there is no meaningful statistical potentiality. Potentiality is utterly fallacious regarding birth control. Killing sperm that will die anyway doesn't bother me. Besides I see nothing humane or Christlike in the Pope arguing against birth control in countries plagued with starvation.

I've been strongly anti-welfare since my college days, individual and corporate welfare as well. Neocons are welfare statists with superficial differences in how to manage it compared to their liberal counterparts.

Regarding foreign policy I was a pure neocon....

and an idiot. My views were so strong that I approved of a few civil liberties and privacy right being restricted which went against my general nature. To elaborate, let's just say that I was truly frightened by the potential for nuclear terrorism.

amy31416
05-18-2008, 08:16 AM
Nope, those definitely aren't typical neocon beliefs, aside from foreign policy.

In regards to feminism, I tend to agree with many of your points, I have no less respect for any woman who decides to go the "traditional" route and stay at home. It's about choice.

The only thing I'll add to that, and one thing that has always confounded me about sexist societies or people who want to keep a woman uneducated, skilled only in cooking, cleaning and making babies: these women are raising your children--how is it good that they are uneducated? Not that anyone here is of that mindset, it just doesn't make any sense that the person who is most responsible for teaching and raising the kid can't teach them much of anything.

Oh, and the only reason I can tease you about your affection for Star Trek, is because some geek told me all about the show. A long time ago. After he told me about it, I stole his lunch money. :)

Mongoose470
05-18-2008, 01:33 PM
Nope, those definitely aren't typical neocon beliefs, aside from foreign policy.

In regards to feminism, I tend to agree with many of your points, I have no less respect for any woman who decides to go the "traditional" route and stay at home. It's about choice.

The only thing I'll add to that, and one thing that has always confounded me about sexist societies or people who want to keep a woman uneducated, skilled only in cooking, cleaning and making babies: these women are raising your children--how is it good that they are uneducated? Not that anyone here is of that mindset, it just doesn't make any sense that the person who is most responsible for teaching and raising the kid can't teach them much of anything.

Oh, and the only reason I can tease you about your affection for Star Trek, is because some geek told me all about the show. A long time ago. After he told me about it, I stole his lunch money. :)

My niece was one who wanted to be a housewife. Like most girls, she had that dream of finding a rich prince, a perfectly normal dream. She is very athletic and was receiving full ride offers in volleyball from several schools. We convinced her to still pursue her education. Specifically we asked her what she would rely on if her prince turned into an abusive frog. Women have often been trapped in abusive relationships by financial dependence. We made it clear it's okay to pursue her dream but don't let a free education and the ability to take care of yourself if needed slip away. She listened and took a full ride at Iowa State. Well not only did she meet a good man, she now wants to be a teacher and she lit it up as a freshman on the volleyball court (I have to brag I'm so proud of her.)

Oh and I take your ribbing in good stride. I'm comfortable with my few geeky pleasures :D

Crickett
05-18-2008, 04:54 PM
Wow, Crickett.... I've never seen that quote before. That defines the govenment's attitude, doesn't it.

Yeah, and it is super scary. I have faith, however, in the Constitution. The Nazis never tried it with a country that had a constitution like ours because we were the FIRST. I truly believe (as I think RP does) that Americans would not be led in the wrong direction for very long.

www.givemeliberty.org/revolution

tomveil
06-01-2008, 01:28 PM
Welcome Mongoose! Reading your posts, it seems like you'll be a great addition to our cause! As some of us mentioned, we're a pretty diverse group with a lot of ideas and views. You may not agree with all of us (and may straight up dislike some of us too!), but it doesn't matter. We have a lot more in common than what divides us.

Where in the country are you located? Is there a Ron Paul meetup group in your area? If so, shoot them a mail or give them a call and let them know that you'd like to help! Summer is getting ready to roll around again, which will mean some great things going on. Here in the great Northwest, we're planning picnics in the park, canvassing (door to door information campaigns), and supporting our "Ron Paul Republican" candidate for congress!

While we won't win the election this year, what we do AFTER the election is a lot more important than what we do before it. The Revolution is just beginning, welcome aboard!

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 07:15 PM
Welcome Mongoose! Reading your posts, it seems like you'll be a great addition to our cause! As some of us mentioned, we're a pretty diverse group with a lot of ideas and views. You may not agree with all of us (and may straight up dislike some of us too!), but it doesn't matter. We have a lot more in common than what divides us.

Where in the country are you located? Is there a Ron Paul meetup group in your area? If so, shoot them a mail or give them a call and let them know that you'd like to help! Summer is getting ready to roll around again, which will mean some great things going on. Here in the great Northwest, we're planning picnics in the park, canvassing (door to door information campaigns), and supporting our "Ron Paul Republican" candidate for congress!

While we won't win the election this year, what we do AFTER the election is a lot more important than what we do before it. The Revolution is just beginning, welcome aboard!

I have been warmly welcomed.

I strongly agree with your suggestion about local involvement and would love to find a meetup group here. I live in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Ron Paul alone will not be able to make this revolution succeed and we need to expand it beyond any attempt to elect him. The mindset of individual Americans needs to be challenged and the seeds need to be planted. We need to seriously challenge our perceptions of the role of government in foreign and domestic affairs that are taught and reinforced by education and government. Our revolutionary ideas are called old and antiquated. For ninety years we have embarked upon the perilous course of a welfare and debt supported totalitarian empire. THOSE IDEAS ARE OLD AND OUTDATED AND NO LONGER SERVE OUR BEST INTERESTS!

amy31416
06-02-2008, 07:30 PM
I have been warmly welcomed.



No you haven't, nerdlinger! Quit makin' stuff up. :p

We will always hold you to ze flame for your prior beliefs, just like we do some of the commie-types here. ;)

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 07:39 PM
No you haven't, nerdlinger! Quit makin' stuff up. :p

We will always hold you to ze flame for your prior beliefs, just like we do some of the commie-types here. ;)

Who is this with the temerity to challenge my superiority? Pffft! Go make me dinner! ;)

amy31416
06-02-2008, 07:45 PM
Who is this with the temerity to challenge my superiority? Pffft! Go make me dinner! ;)

Hope ya like crow in a demiglace sauce with a side of couscous, newb. :D

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 07:52 PM
Hope ya like crow in a demiglace sauce with a side of couscous, newb. :D

I love serving it to the lessers that I sadly must forbear but defer to the inferior gender to serve on my behalf!

However, traditional neo-con fare is "Bald Eagle surprise" washed down with a nice glass of Quaker State.

amy31416
06-02-2008, 07:58 PM
I love serving it to the lessers that I sadly must forbear but defer to the inferior gender to serve on my behalf!

However, traditional neo-con fare is "Bald Eagle surprise" washed down with a nice glass of Quaker State.

Softie. Spotted owl sushi with shots of flaming crude right outta the well is what real men subsist on.

You eat French food, don'tcha? Fess up ya commie!

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 07:59 PM
Softie. Spotted owl sushi with shots of flaming crude right outta the well is what real men subsist on.

You eat French food, don'tcha? Fess up ya commie!

Nope! I eat French, PERIOD!

amy31416
06-02-2008, 08:03 PM
Nope! I eat French, PERIOD!

Vous etes une pomme de terre tete, mon petit ami. Bon appetitt!

Tu est aussi tres bete et tres droll, singe de danse ridicule!

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 08:21 PM
Vous etes une pomme de terre tete, mon petit ami. Bon appetitt!

Tu est aussi tres bete et tres droll, singe de danse ridicule!

roughly translated as "You summers a potato head, my boyfriend. Good appetite! You are also very stupid and very droll, monkey of dance ridiculous!"

amy31416
06-02-2008, 08:27 PM
roughly translated as "You summers a potato head, my boyfriend. Good appetite! You are also very stupid and very droll, monkey of dance ridiculous!"

Damn. I meant vous et (I think), and I forgot that "mon petit ami" is not a strict translation to "my little friend," but means "boyfriend." And I thought bete meant silly--hmmph, been a little too long since French class.

But I still meant every last word of it. :p

P.S. Language has never been my strong point, so fermez la bouche! Et ouvre la finetra, il et chaud.

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Damn. I meant vous et (I think), and I forgot that "mon petit ami" is not a strict translation to "my little friend," but means "boyfriend." And I thought bete meant silly--hmmph, been a little too long since French class.

But I still meant every last word of it. :p

P.S. Language has never been my strong point, so fermez la bouche! Et ouvre la finetra, il et chaud.

Use the masculine reference when referring to me. It's "fermez LE bouche!"

Nur a Mann kann Frauen die rechte Weise beibringen. ;)

amy31416
06-02-2008, 08:57 PM
Use the masculine reference when referring to me. It's "fermez LE bouche!"

Nur a Mann kann Frauen die rechte Weise beibringen. ;)

Oh nein you didn't schweinhund!

Gute nacht, newb. :)

Mongoose470
06-02-2008, 09:01 PM
Oh nein you didn't schweinhund!

Gute nacht, newb. :)

Gute nacht, affenkopf ;)

georgiaboy
06-03-2008, 03:50 PM
(maybe mongoose & amy need to go get a virtual room somewhere?!?!? ;) )

amy31416
06-03-2008, 03:55 PM
(maybe mongoose & amy need to go get a virtual room somewhere?!?!? ;) )

No can do. Then the gig would be up about me being a virtual partial post-op tranny.

georgiaboy
06-03-2008, 04:04 PM
thanks for the clarification -- so the 31416 is only virtual pi(e)? :)

amy31416
06-03-2008, 04:08 PM
thanks for the clarification -- so the 31416 is only virtual pi(e)? :)

Indeed. It's actually designed to throw off the Paulbots. It worked.

aspiringconstitutionalist
06-03-2008, 04:35 PM
Ha. You want to talk about neo-conservative converts being welcome in the Revolution?

I was a state-wide chair of a PAC seeking to get Condoleezza Rice in the Republican primary race from 2005-2006, and when she wouldn't budge, I became the chair of an independent political organization called Social Conservatives for Rudy Giuliani. Ron Paul got to me gradually throughout 2007, and after researching what he had to say, I resigned my position and became a full fledged Ron Paul supporter in October 2007. I've been a strict constitutionalist ever since. :)

amy31416
06-03-2008, 04:38 PM
Ha. You want to talk about neo-conservative converts being welcome in the Revolution?

I was a state-wide chair of a PAC seeking to get Condoleezza Rice in the Republican primary race from 2005-2006, and when she wouldn't budge, I became the chair of an independent political organization called Social Conservatives for Rudy Giuliani. Ron Paul got to me gradually throughout 2007, and after researching what he had to say, I resigned my position and became a full fledged Ron Paul supporter in October 2007. I've been a strict constitutionalist ever since. :)

Wow. Way to out-neocon our resident neocon!

And congrats on getting a grip. :) Glad you're here!

Mongoose470
06-04-2008, 03:42 PM
Ha. You want to talk about neo-conservative converts being welcome in the Revolution?

I was a state-wide chair of a PAC seeking to get Condoleezza Rice in the Republican primary race from 2005-2006, and when she wouldn't budge, I became the chair of an independent political organization called Social Conservatives for Rudy Giuliani. Ron Paul got to me gradually throughout 2007, and after researching what he had to say, I resigned my position and became a full fledged Ron Paul supporter in October 2007. I've been a strict constitutionalist ever since. :)

The question is whether tornado chasing, MMA luvin', star trekkin computer geeks are allowed.

amy31416
06-04-2008, 04:02 PM
The question is whether tornado chasing, MMA luvin', star trekkin computer geeks are allowed.

No.

What's MMA? Metropolitan Museum of Art? I thought museums were for commies.

Mongoose470
06-04-2008, 04:08 PM
No.

What's MMA? Metropolitan Museum of Art? I thought museums were for commies.

Manly Man Arts. Last year I won the 50 liter dash. Sorry, I realize metric is equally commie!

amy31416
06-04-2008, 04:15 PM
Manly Man Arts. Last year I won the 50 liter dash. Sorry, I realize metric is equally commie!

Pffft. The English measurement system is the system of our former oppressors. Metric is the only way to go.

Plus, I'd love to see a 50 L dash.

Mongoose470
06-04-2008, 04:22 PM
Plus, I'd love to see a 50 L dash.

Sorry, this is Manly Man Arts. Wine coolers and daiquiris not permitted :p Plus there is no crying in a drinking contest!

amy31416
06-04-2008, 04:27 PM
Sorry, this is Manly Man Arts. Wine coolers and daiquiris not permitted :p Plus there is no crying in a drinking contest!

Sounds a lot like those Bilderberg meetings I keep hearing about. Yeah, they're all indisputably men's men. :p

Mongoose470
06-04-2008, 04:50 PM
Sounds a lot like those Bilderberg meetings I keep hearing about. Yeah, they're all indisputably men's men. :p

You mean to voice hateful contempt of that elite misogynist frat club deciding how to divvy up the world (liquor and women included) between them?

As a true man who values self sufficiency, I share your disdain of that craven flock of globalist minds.

amy31416
06-04-2008, 05:07 PM
You mean to voice hateful contempt of that elite misogynist frat club deciding how to divvy up the world (liquor and women included) between them?

As a true man who values self sufficiency, I share your disdain of that craven flock of globalist minds.

I have no problem with the misogyny, the liquor, elitism or globalism.

It's the images that it puts into my head that I can't tolerate. Old white men frolicking nekked while plotting to take over the world--it's just too much.

Mongoose470
06-04-2008, 05:13 PM
I have no problem with the misogyny, the liquor, elitism or globalism.

It's the images that it puts into my head that I can't tolerate. Old white men frolicking nekked while plotting to take over the world--it's just too much.

Would you prefer they were old wrinkled men skinny dippin in the hotel fountain? One thing's for certain: There wouldn't be any quarters or pennies left in that fountain.

amy31416
06-04-2008, 05:43 PM
Would you prefer they were old wrinkled men skinny dippin in the hotel fountain? One thing's for certain: There wouldn't be any quarters or pennies left in that fountain.

I'd prefer that they just run amok amongst themselves and that we don't have to hear of their naked frolicking or their plans for the NWO.

These conspiracy theorists keep bringing it up though. Annoying!

Mongoose470
06-04-2008, 06:15 PM
I'd prefer that they just run amok amongst themselves and that we don't have to hear of their naked frolicking or their plans for the NWO.

These conspiracy theorists keep bringing it up though. Annoying!

I have a problem with globalism. I'd prefer for us to keep our sovereignty. On some levels, it's more than just a wacko conspiracy theory. Global tax anybody? What do you think the UN is?

I concede I have to poo-poo many of the theories about Hogan, Hall and Nash.

Pauls' Revere
06-05-2008, 02:13 AM
My name is The One, and I'm a recovering neo-con.

Hello...My name is Pauls' Revere and I'm a recovered apathetic brainwashed conservative cured by Dr Paul. Whew!...the first step is always the hardest, thank you Dr Paul for reminding me of what America is truely about.

:)

Mongoose470
06-05-2008, 04:45 PM
Update on my mother.

She has been in excruciating pain lately. Her doctor increased her pain medication dosage. I'm agnostic but THANK GOD! She is feeling a lot better. I was particularly impressed when the doctor said: Addiction is to be expected but it's an unavoidable side effect of keeping her comfortable.

Alas I do know that so many unfortunate others do not receive such compassionate care. She's lucky.

amy31416
06-05-2008, 06:56 PM
Update on my mother.

She has been in excruciating pain lately. Her doctor increased her pain medication dosage. I'm agnostic but THANK GOD! She is feeling a lot better. I was particularly impressed when the doctor said: Addiction is to be expected but it's an unavoidable side effect of keeping her comfortable.

Alas I do know that so many unfortunate others do not receive such compassionate care. She's lucky.

Congrats on finding such a good doctor. I'm glad she's feeling better.

Carole
07-11-2008, 08:00 PM
Is a neo-con convert welcome?


Very nicely done Mongoose. I so agree with you. :)

Carole
07-11-2008, 08:26 PM
Dude, you are so missing out. It's way fun to mock pseudo-intellectuals, especially when they don't realize it. And they rarely do, given how self-absorbed they are.

But the blunt "you are full of shit" also has it's place in the conversation. Usually the end of it. :)

Oh my goodness! That is so what I so often think, especially when one of them is trying to avoid answering one of RP's probing questions!! :D

Carole
07-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Mongoose said:
"It's plain wrong and simply doesn't work. War brings about war. Suspension of liberty leads to war and murder. Intuition makes for poor guidance. Intuition says the more we try to live beyond our means, the more prosperous we will be. reality though is far more counter-intuitive than we believe."

Ditto , except that for me personally, intuition always leads me toward common sense. At least, now that I understand that it requires a philosophy in order to think clearly. Up until I found a philosophy of freedom, I truly did not understand many things and could not reason for myself what was the right thing to do about things happening in our country. It was so very confusing. Some things seemed clear while other things seemed muddy.

Now, everything makes perfect sense. :)

And that in itself is very liberating.

flpr86
07-12-2008, 12:01 PM
Wow, what a great posting Mongoose! I think there are thoughts from each of us in that initial posting one way or another.

Mongoose470
07-14-2008, 03:37 PM
Once again, thanks for the kind compliments. There are those far more deserving than I...those who woke up before I did, those who never fell asleep.

Mark
07-27-2008, 09:38 PM
Statistically and evidentially speaking, it is highly unlikely that hell or the devil exists. However, as we all know, there is no way of knowing while still laying claim to being a living, breathing life form on this plane.

Not only do I not know, most esteemed board, none of us know.



I know.

Cdixon25
08-20-2008, 06:22 PM
Like many, I was overcome by the grief and anger of September 11. I wanted justice and revenge.

Now I feel manipulated by a neo-conservative agenda that took advantage of a nation's understandable grief and anger to beat the drums of war, expand our empire to conquering the Middle East, and to expand the power of the executive branch toward totalitarianism.

I see the prophetic irony in Bush's post 9/11 statement: "Freedom was attacked by a faceless coward." It was exactly what I wanted to hear at the time. I only saw the irony of that self fufilling prophecy when Bush and the true faceless cowards attacked freedom via the UNPATRIOTIC ACT. Like most people, I did not want to own up to our provacative role in the Middle East. Now I look at my own fear which led me to follow them.

I am extremely worried about our once great nation. We have declared a war without end: The War on Terrorism. We have embarked on a perilous journey of taking our civil liberties away one by one. We are on the slippery slope that enlightened others tried to warn me about.

I haven't lost hope though. Some say the damage cannot be undone: That once a nation suspends civil liberties, no action outside of violent revolution will ever get them back. Some say we might as well ride out the storm we created in the Middle East because we have already opened Pandora's Box. I COMPLETELY DISAGREE! The legacy of our founding fathers was a system of government, the ONLY SYSTEM, that allows us to undo our own evil and shortsightedness. Our founding fathers weren't virtuous or psychic. They STRIVED for virtue and left us a Constitution and checks and balances that encouraged the striving for virtue while retaining civil liberties. WE UNDID SLAVERY! Vietnam, despite their shortcomings, has a fairly amicable relationship with us now. We pulled out of Lebanon. Though our system will make unwise decisions, through enlightened minds and the revolutionary spirit within all Americans, we can undo the unconstitutional authority we unwisely gave to our Commander in Chief to wage war without congressional approval. We can undo the socialist state our politicians have strived for since the New Deal. We can win back our civil liberties because as revolutionaries, we simply refuse to have our freedoms stolen from us. Men like Thoreau who refused to pay taxes to a system that enslaved people of another race. Women like Rosa Parks who refused to be treated as a second class citizen. The suffrage movement that forced government to recognize women as having equal political say. They were called dissidents then. Now they are role models and true patriots of the revolution we started in 1776. Under our Constitution, history is replete with examples of undoing evil and oppression. It's occurring as we speak. True patriots are defending the right of the homosexual to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by fighting for their right to marry. I am straight as an arrow but two gays marrying does absolutely no harm to me or society. Nor does it infringe upon my rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Most of all, I have overcome my own shortsightedness thanks to our wonderous system that encourages free thought: Questioning thought

Our system does allow for shortsightedness and oppression to prosper, but only for a time. It is an unavoidable consequence of our republic but liberty will prevail. It will prevail as long as we are still willing to fight for it as kindred revolutionary spirits. It will prevail as long as we continue to strive for greater virtue. It will prevail as long as we keep the lessons of our forefathers at heart: Freedom is never freely granted, it must be fought for and won because the enemies of liberty are resolved to keep their power.

There will always be naysayers. Those who have lost faith in our ability to self govern. Those who believe our problems are too complicated for a self governing society to resolve. Those who believe that small and select intellectual elite must be granted total power in order to solve our complicated problems. They are quick to point out our shortsightedness and shortcomings of the past as we struggled in the infancy of our revolution. They scoff at the multitude of examples where our self governing system overcame its own shortcomings. They even deny the progress our nation has made. To them, freedom and liberty is an antiquated and farcial concept that only prevails in fairy tales.

During World War Two, civil liberties were virtually abolished and the press was completely controlled. In essence, we were a totalitarian state. We undid that. We won our civil liberties back. Today the press can be critical of our foreign policy. Good, loving, patriotic Muslims are not rounded up into concentration camps. Contrary to the naysayers, the vast majority of American Muslims have remained unswerving in their respect of individual liberty and their desire for a secure homeland. Moreover, brave souls oppose the war and remain free.

There will always be courageous revolutionaries like Ron Paul, who through word and deed, took action against the misguided efforts to usurp freedom and plunge us into unconstitutional and unethical war. He and others weren't deterred by the fear of being labeled a traitor because they know history will acquit them. They have faith in our system. They know the revolutionary spirit is still alive and will rise against the advancing torrent of oppression and fear of totalitarian traitors. Today 70% of Americans oppose the war. 70% oppose the continual suspension of civil liberties. As Americans and kindred revolutionary spirits, we are patient but not forever toiling. We were momentarily divided but are uniting under our root similarities. Ron Paul is the only candidate who can unite our country because he is the only candidate who fights for what Americans overwhelmingly desire: Peace and liberty. Peace through liberty. He can unite us under the banner: This far, too far, and no further. He has issued the metaphorical call to arms and we must fight. Freedom will not be freely granted, but it can and will be won.

Our faith will be tested. We must resist the temptation of discouragement. We must stand firm against the self fufilling prophecy that we shouldn't vote for him because he won't win. We must resist the temptation to settle for the lesser evil just because he might have a better chance of winning. Though Ron Paul may not win this battle for the election, the war for liberty is winnable. In the court of public opinion where the heart and soul of America is the judge, we've only just begun.

Thank you for reading this.

I, myself am new to the group and somewhat new to the revolution. I used to be a liberal in my early teens and then took a radical shift to a different side of the left to the neoconservative movement. I've always distrusted the government however, as ironic as it sounds. I slowly changed my ways.

Welcome fellow convert though. The past is the past and what we've become is all that matters, because that is real change, something America is struggling to understand.

Mongoose470
09-10-2008, 05:43 AM
I, myself am new to the group and somewhat new to the revolution. I used to be a liberal in my early teens and then took a radical shift to a different side of the left to the neoconservative movement. I've always distrusted the government however, as ironic as it sounds. I slowly changed my ways.

Welcome fellow convert though. The past is the past and what we've become is all that matters, because that is real change, something America is struggling to understand.

I was raised a Democrat. Became a neocon and now have evolved into what could be called a libertarian. I'd like to consider myself a traditional conservative but libertarian is okay with me.

I recently went back to college at the University of Iowa to complete a double major. I am surprised at how many youngsters I've encountered that cherish the vision of our forefathers regarding individual liberties and non interventionist foreign policy, and even supported Ron Paul. Yeah they're outnumbered by the groupies of that rockstar known as Obama but to see a few openly traditional conservatives at a University was refreshing.

Sadly, nothing good will come of the upcoming election. I have a real sense of forboding about our future unless we see a dramatic change in policy.