Anyone else having trouble convincing others?

[jclay2]

Ok, so besides ronpaulforums I go to another board fairly regularly. Occasioanally we will talk about government entitlements and welfare programs. No matter how many absolutely brilliant and mathematical arguments I make, they won't budge. You tell them that we are nearly 10 trillion dollars in debt and to fund our future programs we would need 8 trillion dollars being invested at treasury rates, and they don't even seem to care. I show them with retirement calculators how someone making $40,000 annually over the last 30 years, if he could have opted out of Social Security, could have had over a million dollars today, and they don't say a thing.

It seems that anytime you mention that charity and moral obligations are rested soly upon individual citizens, they cry fowl. How in the world do you remove all the poison that has been brainwashed into these people. Whats even worse, is they go off on me telling me how immature I am and that I havn't seen the world and that I have no idea what I am talking about.

Since when did logic and common sense become punishable by law. Seriously guys I need some encouragement here.:(

[amy31416]

It's so ingrained. So very ingrained.

The best I can say, and I don't know how far you'll get with this:

While charity can be a great thing, forced charity is a blight on society for the following reasons:

1. It's taking something that one person has earned and giving it to another (stealing.) Forget the romantic notions of Robin Hood in a capitalistic society. You aren't taking from the rich, the rich get all the good tax breaks. You're taking from the middle class.

2. If you destroy the middle class, all you have left is rich and poor. That is not a good thing.

3. When the government takes over the "responsibility" of philantrhopy towards our fellow man, it implies that we, the people, are not capable of best deciding the best use of our money and who deserves our charity, should we decide to be charitable.

4. The government is a middleman in the charity business, this adds cost and reduces value of the money. Now we have to pay welfare administrations employees out the wazoo with both wages, benefits and lawmakers to write scads of unnecessary laws determining the scope, then law enforcement if it should be abused, then finally the prison system if it is badly abused. Wouldn't it be better to just make up your mind on your own to donate to NPR, your local educational system, the battered womens shelter or an alcohol rehab joint? We barely even have the option anymore without regulations.

5. It's a racket that is prone to abuse by those in power in the various offices that run these programs.

6. Ultimately, the welfare program and even social security has only inspired dependence on the system rather than self-reliance and responsibility. Which, in my opinion, is the worst aspect of the whole notion of welfare and public assistance.

That's all I got for ya at this time of night.

[Paulitician]

Just keep spreading the word. As long as the message is out there, some will come around when the crisis hits hard and they found out you've been right all along.

[jclay2]

I don't know. What happened in the last depression. We didn't exactly go in the right direction. In fact, we went in the complete wrong direction no thanks to FDR. I think the next depression we will face a very similar response. However, I don't think the United States will be able to emerge out of the depression like we did the first time around.

[torchbearer]

forced charity is a nice way of saying theft. which implies taking by force.

[JaylieWoW]

Have you ever taken a look at that website that rates the "charity" of nations?

I'm not certain, but I believe they only include charity from individuals through organizations and not government payouts.

Anyway (I'll have to search for the site later), America is consistently #1 on that list.

Maybe you could appeal to these individuals by pointing out the recent SIXTY FIVE MILLION raised by American Idol? I don't know about you, but that is pretty darn impressive. Just imagine if you weren't taxed so much and were able to give a little more than what you did? You choose what is worthy!

Look, movie stars and artistic individuals are so good at making charity drives SO successful. Ask them to imagine what it would be like to CHOOSE which charity their money goes to, with their own HEARTS. I don't think appealing to people on an "intellectual" level is going to work anymore, maybe an appeal over freedom of charitable choice would be better?

Probably some "scatter-brained" thinking, but this plays in the back of my head all the time when thinking about welfare and how to talk to people about why charity is SO much better.

[Carehn]

This happens to me all the time.

Some people wont listen.

I can only guess it is because this takes the moral obligation away from society and puts it one them. People don't want to be responsible for there own choices. Most don't want to be held accountable for there own well being.

We have grown accustom to are cell.

[jclay2]

I don't know maybe it is the fact that it is in an online discussion. I swear if I had these people right in front of me I could blow them out of the water. A lot of times when I make excellent points, they just pretend that it never happened.

Carehn: I think I am going to use your signature on this other board. It will certainly annoy them.:D

[Carehn]

Carehn: I think I am going to use your signature on this other board. It will certainly annoy them.:D

I would love that.:)

[JaylieWoW]

Carehn: I think I am going to use your signature on this other board. It will certainly annoy them.:D

Yes, quite a nice short and sweet summary of my own. :)

[Anti Federalist]

There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money.

Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost.

Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch!

Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get. And that’s government. And that’s close to 40% of our national income.

Milton Freidman 2004

[Truth Warrior]

Ok, so besides ronpaulforums I go to another board fairly regularly. Occasioanally we will talk about government entitlements and welfare programs. No matter how many absolutely brilliant and mathematical arguments I make, they won't budge. You tell them that we are nearly 10 trillion dollars in debt and to fund our future programs we would need 8 trillion dollars being invested at treasury rates, and they don't even seem to care. I show them with retirement calculators how someone making $40,000 annually over the last 30 years, if he could have opted out of Social Security, could have had over a million dollars today, and they don't say a thing.

It seems that anytime you mention that charity and moral obligations are rested soly upon individual citizens, they cry fowl. How in the world do you remove all the poison that has been brainwashed into these people. Whats even worse, is they go off on me telling me how immature I am and that I havn't seen the world and that I have no idea what I am talking about.

Since when did logic and common sense become punishable by law. Seriously guys I need some encouragement here.:(
The childhood instilled brainwash programming runs very deep in some folks. :(

[PatriotG]

This happens to me all the time.

Some people wont listen.

I can only guess it is because this takes the moral obligation away from society and puts it one them. People don't want to be responsible for there own choices. Most don't want to be held accountable for there own well being.

We have grown accustom to are cell.

With the current mindset I don't know what to expect anymore.
Believe me I go through the same thing. I talk logic and get laughed at.
I work On Wall Street. And its amazing the things I hear from finance majors, business majors, VP's, Directors etc....

I suspect that the education system has done its job very well; bad teachers, bad curriculum and corruption at every level.

It scares the hell out of me.

[amy31416]

There are four ways in which you can spend money. You can spend your own money on yourself. When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money.

Then you can spend your own money on somebody else. For example, I buy a birthday present for someone. Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost.

Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself. And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch!

Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else. And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get. And that’s government. And that’s close to 40% of our national income.

Milton Freidman 2004

Brilliant

[Paulitician]

I don't know. What happened in the last depression. We didn't exactly go in the right direction. In fact, we went in the complete wrong direction no thanks to FDR. I think the next depression we will face a very similar response. However, I don't think the United States will be able to emerge out of the depression like we did the first time around.
But we had vastly different circumstances back in the 1930s. We were the largest creditor nation, we had a trade surplus, our debt/dollar standard was barely in its infancy; in other words, we had the ability to have a New Deal. I don't think that's possible anymore. Plus, "free markets" are much more popular in the world because of Friedrich Hayek and especially Milton Friedman. There is no John Maynard Keynes around, and there hasn't been one around for a while. Besides, Keynesian economics has been extremely discredited already anyway. So, I'm somewhat optimistic, I see history as a linear progression from serfdom to freedom. There are some setbacks, yes, but ultimately we're always moving foward.

[liberteebell]

Ok, so besides ronpaulforums I go to another board fairly regularly. Occasioanally we will talk about government entitlements and welfare programs. No matter how many absolutely brilliant and mathematical arguments I make, they won't budge. You tell them that we are nearly 10 trillion dollars in debt and to fund our future programs we would need 8 trillion dollars being invested at treasury rates, and they don't even seem to care. I show them with retirement calculators how someone making $40,000 annually over the last 30 years, if he could have opted out of Social Security, could have had over a million dollars today, and they don't say a thing.

It seems that anytime you mention that charity and moral obligations are rested soly upon individual citizens, they cry fowl. How in the world do you remove all the poison that has been brainwashed into these people. Whats even worse, is they go off on me telling me how immature I am and that I havn't seen the world and that I have no idea what I am talking about.

Since when did logic and common sense become punishable by law. Seriously guys I need some encouragement here.:(

Aside from the near total brainwashing, I think most people still believe (or want to believe) that the government is some benevolent "being" and they've never really stop to think about where the money is supposed to come from--take "free" health care for example. That sounds positively wonderful until... And they also are warm and comfortable in their little crappy paradigm.

I am finding that it's nearly impossible, no matter how honed my argument, to get people to see the big picture if I give them the whole ball of wax at one time. (and yeah, it's totally frustrating that people can't see what we see!!!)

So I've used some small pieces of information and open ended, thought provoking questions to get people to think outside their comfort zone. Then I leave it alone. Many times this sideways approach gets them thinking and they come to the rest all on their own.

As for arguing on forums though, I would encourage you to keep up the fight if you have the time to do it. Many years ago, reading well reasoned posts from people who got attacked by nearly everyone, helped change my thinking and solidify my strong libertarian beliefs. I owe all those people behind anonymous screen names a huge debt of gratitude. So you're probably doing great things, even if you don't see the results! :D

[acptulsa]

So I've used some small pieces of information and open ended, thought provoking questions to get people to think outside their comfort zone. Then I leave it alone. Many times this sideways approach gets them thinking and they come to the rest all on their own.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and it didn't burn in a day either.

[liberteebell]

I don't know. What happened in the last depression. We didn't exactly go in the right direction. In fact, we went in the complete wrong direction no thanks to FDR. I think the next depression we will face a very similar response. However, I don't think the United States will be able to emerge out of the depression like we did the first time around.

Looking at how the fed.gov handled hurricane Katrina, I don't see how it wouldn't become a laughingstock in a nationwide depression. I know many people who became raging self-reliant libertarians after having lived through a hurricane, tornado, ice storm or such because the event caused them to have an epiphiny: We Are On Our Own (and its corollary: the gooberment is totally ineffective).

I think a depression will be extremely ugly but I think the "survivors" will re-learn self-reliance and take care of themselves rather than screaming for the nanny state to come to the rescue.

Someone sent me this interesting article yesterday:

http://www.energybulletin.net/23259.html

Some of it's a bit whacked out but the author makes some interesting points about the ineffectiveness of the fed.gov.

[AutoDas]

I can't stand these people. They act all high and holey by proclaiming the government to be the savior. They should give up their $80 a month high speech Internet connection if they want to help the poor poor so much cause the government surely won't mind that extra money. Pick one fight at a time and have someone back you up because these socialists have a heard mentality to listen. I think there should be a topic here or a wikiresource that we can answer the most frequent responses for (who will build the roads, contracts vs. law, charity, natural resources, government monopolies, how we don't have capitalism but corporatism, etc.) with plans to gradually dissect socialism. I like to lead debates into individualism vs. collectivism because I can compare socialism to fascism easily and the debate ends.
I hope you aren't one of those individuals who attacks the government because of conspiracy theories, I wouldn't back those people up.
All of these people online defending the gov't are nerds who want Network Neutrality and have never experienced the real world.

edit: I'd like to add that I was once these people but the discussions did change my mind so there's hope.