WORST President? (Poll 2/3)

[Kludge]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=134069


Top 3 will move on to the final poll to receive the title of Worst President of the United States.

[Kludge]

bump

[Kludge]

bump

... (Only 2 bumps/day, for 7 days... Don't fret too much ;))

[Andrew-Austin]

Federal Reserve Act.

Can someone elaborate on the hatred of Abe?

[Kludge]

Federal Reserve Act.

He apologized for it at least.

[Andrew-Austin]

He apologized for it at least.

Did he?

If you are talking about this common quote:


"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

I read the bold part was misattributed to him, and that he didn't actually say that line in his book.

[Bradley in DC]

Can someone elaborate on the hatred of Abe?

Unlawful suspension of habeas corpus, Greenbacks, imprisoning a US Congressman, imprisoning state reps, ordering the imprisonment of US Supreme Court chief justice, ordering slaves returned to their plantations after being freed, corporate welfare (canals, etc.), imprisoning critical news editors, etc.

[GunnyFreedom]

Can't...decide...Wilson....Lincoln...Wilson...Linc oln... garrrrgh!!!!


OK, Wilson it is.

[GunnyFreedom]

Unlawful suspension of habeas corpus, Greenbacks, imprisoning a US Congressman, imprisoning state reps, ordering the imprisonment of US Supreme Court chief justice, ordering slaves returned to their plantations after being freed, corporate welfare (canals, etc.), imprisoning critical news editors, etc.

Oh now that's just scratching the surface

[Andrew-Austin]

Unlawful suspension of habeas corpus, Greenbacks, imprisoning a US Congressman, imprisoning state reps, ordering the imprisonment of US Supreme Court chief justice, ordering slaves returned to their plantations after being freed, corporate welfare (canals, etc.), imprisoning critical news editors, etc.

Damn, I guess its all in the interpretors eyes. Its just I remember reading a certain book (http://www.amazon.com/Fate-Liberty-Abraham-Lincoln-Liberties/dp/0195080327/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208931328&sr=8-1) on the subject matter, and it outlined in very scholarly detail the reasonings and details of Lincoln's actions. Thats not to say that I approve of all those things, but I think the book gives life to the quote "the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions". At the very least I feel comfortable saying, that some of Lincolns actions seem more forgivable when put in the right context. Unlike our current President, I could at least say he had good intentions.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Federal Reserve Act.

Can someone elaborate on the hatred of Abe?

This irrational hatred for Abraham Lincoln is a result of our loss of souls as Americans. While it is UnAmerican to be hateful and violent, we lash out as a result of losing our birthrights to 16 straight years of erosion towards tyranny.
I think many in this forum are just as lost in legal precedents as the tyrants they complain about. Hopefully we will rediscover our American souls as they are defined in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution.

[jpa]

Abe & Wilson were bad, but neither had the impact that FDR did.

FDR & crew created the modern US tyrannical state. The military industrial complex, the welfare system, the concentration of power in the exec branch...

FDR is also the only one on the list who is flat out socialist. (AFAIK)

[familydog]

FDR officially made the welfare state acceptable to all. He gets my vote.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Abe & Wilson were bad, but neither had the impact that FDR did.

FDR & crew created the modern US tyrannical state. The military industrial complex, the welfare system, the concentration of power in the exec branch...

FDR is also the only one on the list who is flat out socialist. (AFAIK)

Just what is the criteria used in making these determinations? My criteria is whether the former President was part of a movement to reestablish a Constitutional government. If a President wasn't part of such a movement to advance modern civilization, then his or her administration was part of an erosion away from it. These erosions towards tyranny helped reestablished the old master/slave caste systems of the past.

FDR created the New Deal movement to raise the level of the lower class (slaves) relative to that of the higher class of Robber Barons (masters) the government itself helped to create. These Barons were employed by the Government and literally given wealth as incentives to establish new industries like the railroads and steel industries.
Like all American movements of the past, the New Deal worked well at first before it spoiled into a can of slimey legal precedents.
Let us use Hillary as an example here. President Clinton's administration was part of an erosion towards tyranny regardless of his leadership abilities. The reason for this determination were the legal precedents his administration dug up from the out dated Civil Rights movement. He didn't help in reestablishing the Constitutional government over the United States but instead masked a hidden agenda with a false movement made up of prior legal precedents. Bush Jr. did the exact same thing but only in an inverse manner. His corrupt administration did not lead a movement with fresh measures to reestablish the civil purpose in the Constitution but he dug up old legal precedents from the Reagan years.

Western civilization was established on a socialist principle that the poor can learn to improve their lives when served by teachers (midwife philosophers).

In regards to the social redispersal of wealth to rid our nation of the primitive master/slave caste system?
When the government taxes the middle class out of business in order to redisperse their wealth to the poor and the rich, this is a form of tyranny because the process works to reestablish the old caste system of government as the middle class erodes to that of the master and the slave.
Likewise, when people choose a legal path of dispensing their government through judgement rather than choose the civil path of dispensing it through negotiation and compromise, the people exiting out of the courthouse do so as losers and winners. This legal process further reestablishes the old caste system of losing slaves and winning masters.

[Dustancostine]

FDR hands down.

[Aratus]

james buchanan, abe lincoln and jefferson davis did not create
the civil war, insted they saw what it did to their contemporaries.

[Aratus]

leadership can go in tandem to a deeper tragedy...

[Fox McCloud]

Woodrow Wilson, hands down.

He signed the Federal Reserve Act, which made it possible for FDR to start all of his welfare programs....if he hadn't done that, Roosevelt would have had to tax the American people to DEATH to pay for everything he instituted....but since credit and fiat were the order of the day...it was possible.

Plus, the Fed causes so many more problems it's not funny.

AND he laid the basis of an interventionist foreign policy "we have to make the world safe for Democracy".

I'd say Wilson paved the way for FDR; without Wilson, I have my doubts if an FDR Presidency would have even been viable.

Heck, we might not have gotten involved in WWI if it weren't for Wilson, too.

Gee, he's worse than I thought, now that I think about it.

[tmosley]

Abe made the first real grab for executive power, setting the stage for future abuses by his successors. In addition, due to his poor handling of the Civil War and Reconstruction, we still have race relations problems today, a hundred and fifty years after the end of slavery.

[Kade]

This list is actually missing someone very, very important...

But, the poll itself is subjective.. I mean, seriously, why is Bill Clinton on there?

[tmosley]

He's a past president who did some really awful things that set us up for the mess we have now with Bush.

[Kade]

He's a past president who did some really awful things that set us up for the mess we have now with Bush.

What exactly did he do that you find upsetting?

[Kade]

In my opinion, only the DMCA remains as a blotch on a pretty solid centrist president, certainly not one of the WORST.

[Kotin]

FDR Ftw

[Bryan]

I'm going with Woodrow Wilson for both the Federal Reserve Act (December 23, 1913) and for the Raker Act (December 19, 1913) which remains arguably the largest environmental disaster ever by allowing San Francisco to violate the sanctity of the Hetch Hetchy Valley with the construction of the O'Shaughnessy Dam. Hetch Hetchy Valley is the near twin sister to Yosemite Valley which receives over 3.5 million visitors per year as it is one the most amazing places on the planet. Today, Hetch Hetchy Valley is a wasteland, water tank that allows a small handful to profit at the complete loss to everyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raker_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Shaughnessy_Dam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetch_Hetchy
http://www.hetchhetchy.org/

[weslinder]

...but I really regret that Truman is not on this list.

1. He chose to vaporize 100,000 civilians on the very debatable claim that it would save lives.

2. He started the official version of the UN.

3. He unilaterally started the Korean police action that provided the model for Vietnam, Lebanon, Grenada, Lybia, Iraq, Bosnia, Somalia, and Afghanistan.

[Kludge]

This list is actually missing someone very, very important...

But, the poll itself is subjective.. I mean, seriously, why is Bill Clinton on there?

He was mentioned in the first poll. I like him for his economic policies, but someone pointed out his interventions during his terms.

[Kade]

I'm going with Woodrow Wilson for both the Federal Reserve Act (December 23, 1913) and for the Raker Act (December 19, 1913) which remains arguably the largest environmental disaster ever by allowing San Francisco to violate the sanctity of the Hetch Hetchy Valley with the construction of the O'Shaughnessy Dam. Hetch Hetchy Valley is the near twin sister to Yosemite Valley which receives over 3.5 million visitors per year as it is one the most amazing places on the planet. Today, Hetch Hetchy Valley is a wasteland, water tank that allows a small handful to profit at the complete loss to everyone else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raker_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Shaughnessy_Dam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetch_Hetchy
http://www.hetchhetchy.org/

I voted the same.

[RCA]

Wilson, no contest.

[nate895]

Abe Lincoln started us down the path of centralized government.

[ChooseLiberty]

It's amazing that people even know what Lincoln and Wilson did. That's progress.

Before RP's candidacy virtually no one understood how bad they were. Me included.

Now for the problematic Lincoln Memorial. It's a fraud and should be razed.

Can you believe he has a memorial within sight of the Jefferson Memorial?

[nate895]

It's amazing that people even know what Lincoln and Wilson did. That's progress.

Before RP's candidacy virtually no one understood how bad they were. Me included.

Now for the problematic Lincoln Memorial. It's a fraud and should be razed.

Can you believe he has a memorial within sight of the Jefferson Memorial?

If I was President my first act would be to remove their portraits from the White House premises.

[James Madison]

LBJ was bad, Truman was worse, and Wilson worse still. But it's gotta be "Honest" Abe was the worst president ever. Maybe we should get a thread going on the BEST president?

[SimpleName]

Abe & Wilson were bad, but neither had the impact that FDR did.

FDR & crew created the modern US tyrannical state. The military industrial complex, the welfare system, the concentration of power in the exec branch...

FDR is also the only one on the list who is flat out socialist. (AFAIK)

ABSOLUTELY! He is depicted as a savior by the mainstream, but he is the biggest cause of our troubles today. Suddenly it became acceptable for the government to spend out of control, to bail out banks and citizens, to tease other nations into attacking (Pearl Harbor), and of course...the grand daddy of them all, Japanese-American imprisonment. He may not be the most EVIL (Andrew Jackson?), but he is the cause of many problems we face today. People loved him because he just willfully fabricated money for the so-called better of the nation and average citizens. During the time, many Americans started to lose all faith in capitalism and were desperate for a more socialist/communist system. So, what did FDR to bring them back from such thoughts? He simply implemented socialist policies. Gee...no wonder why there are more regulations on business than there is businesses.

[nate895]

LBJ was bad, Truman was worse, and Wilson worse still. But it's gotta be "Honest" Abe was the worst president ever. Maybe we should get a thread going on the BEST president?

We'd have three options:

Thomas Jefferson
Calvin Coolidge
William Henry Harrison (he didn't do anything to break the Constitution in those 30 days, did he?)

[jclay2]

I have no idea who voted for Andrew Jackson because he was responsible for paying off the national debt and taking down the central bank. Yeah I guess he did have some issues with indians but does that really outweigh the good he did?

The worst president though is very hard to choose. FDR is our country's father of socialism and Wilson got duped into the Federal Reserve. I think I will go with FDR just because Wilson at least admitted his mistake.

[nate895]

I have no idea who voted for Andrew Jackson because he was responsible for paying off the national debt and taking down the central bank. Yeah I guess he did have some issues with indians but does that really outweigh the good he did?

The worst president though is very hard to choose. FDR is our country's father of socialism and Wilson got duped into the Federal Reserve. I think I will go with FDR just because Wilson at least admitted his mistake.

Jackson did immediately replace the Central Bank, and he was responsible for the first attack on state sovereignty. I don't think he was the worst, but he certainly laid the foundation.

[ChooseLiberty]

"John Kennedy when he dined in the White House and had all the Nobel Prize winners there, President Kennedy made a toast and said, "We've never had this much genius in this room except when Jefferson dined alone.""

[nate895]

"John Kennedy when he dined in the White House and had all the Nobel Prize winners there, President Kennedy made a toast and said, "We've never had this much genius in this room except when Jefferson dined alone.""

Maybe JFK wouldn't have been half bad, if only he wanted to eliminate entitlements.

[Andrew-Austin]

"John Kennedy when he dined in the White House and had all the Nobel Prize winners there, President Kennedy made a toast and said, "We've never had this much genius in this room except when Jefferson dined alone.""

Haha, thats a really cool quote. :)

[Bradley in DC]

LBJ was bad, Truman was worse, and Wilson worse still. But it's gotta be "Honest" Abe was the worst president ever. Maybe we should get a thread going on the BEST president?

Grover Cleveland
Martin van Buren
Calvin Coolidge

(Oh, I voted for the court packing, gold-grabbing war monger FDR for worst--so many good choices though)

[AutoDas]

I think Thomas Jefferson is my favorite President but I'd like to hear more on Calvin Coolidge and explain why I was taught in school that every president elected during the 1920s was bad (I wonder why the people elected three Republicans in a row, then?)

[CoreyBowen999]

How can somebody vote Andrew Jackson..:confused:

[Paulitician]

I think Thomas Jefferson is my favorite President but I'd like to hear more on Calvin Coolidge and explain why I was taught in school that every president elected during the 1920s was bad (I wonder why the people elected three Republicans in a row, then?)
Schools teach stupid shit. They probably didn't like the Republicans because they believe they, especially Herbert Hoover, were hands off went it came to the economy, and that FDR was great because he took us out the Depression. Both aspects of that view are wrong, however, but you wouldn't know why with our horrible government schools. After looking back over my schooling, there was obvious propaganda supporting pro-statist, pro-collectivist and anti-individualist ideas now that I think about it. Thankfully, however, I had pretty good history and economics teachers. Most other people aren't so lucky. I think college does more damage though, since the material is deeper/harder and therefore more "official" even though they're very baised toward leftist positions, interpretations and revisionism.

[forsmant]

There already is a best president thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=70058

[forsmant]

I voted Woodrow Wilson. Anyone with the name Woodrow is probably a geek with the I'll show them, I'll take over the world mentality.

[James Madison]

There already is a best president thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=70058

Wasn't aware of that.

As for my favorite presidents I would have to go with Jefferson, Jackson, Van Buren, Cleveland, and Coolidge.

[Bradley in DC]

How can somebody vote Andrew Jackson..:confused:

Very mixed bag. I love his fight with Biddle, etc, but his actions as military commander especially in New Orleans and later as president with the Cherokee trail of tears were not high points.

[nate895]

Very mixed bag. I love his fight with Biddle, etc, but his actions as military commander especially in New Orleans and later as president with the Cherokee trail of tears were not high points.

At New Orleans, he sure did fight a good battle, though.

[Andrew-Austin]

In school I was taught that FDR saved us from the Great Depression. Why you guys be hatin.

[JaylieWoW]

In my humble, yet not quite completely studious opinion, Lincoln was the president that started everything rolling down the other side of the hill. I think it would have come to it eventually, understanding what I do now.

I reserve any character assessment of Lincoln because, simply, I've never met the chap. Additionally, hindsight as they say is always 20/20.

Still, I think much blame can be laid at the feet of his presidency, if not necessarily his personage.

[Deborah K]

Whew! Well, I'm just grateful my ancestors aren't on that list. lol I'm a decendent of Benjamin Harrison, signer of the Declaration of Independence, his son William Henry Harrison and his grandson, Benjamin Harrison. http://www.presidentbenjaminharrison.org/Harrison/Pres.htm both of whom were Presidents. Although, William gave an inaugural speech in the rain that was so long he ended up catching pneumonia and dying a month later. :o that's embarrassing to admit...

But the first Benjamin Harrison father to William, was a signer of the Declaration of Independence. :D And his signature is right under Thomas Jefferson's :D:D http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/signers/harrison.htm


Any one else related to Presidents?

ps. I picked Woodrow Wilson for ushering in the Federal Reserve...... the creep!

[SeanEdwards]

"John Kennedy when he dined in the White House and had all the Nobel Prize winners there, President Kennedy made a toast and said, "We've never had this much genius in this room except when Jefferson dined alone.""

Jefferson was a great intellect.

He also owned slaves his entire life, died in poverty, and fathered illegitimate children on one of his slaves. He had promised to free his slaves upon his death, but he was unable to do so because of his failure to succeed at his vision of the yeoman farmer. He was paternalistically racist, and thought it was the duty of white men to manage the existence of incompetent black people.

[Kade]

Whew! Well, I'm just grateful my ancestors aren't on that list. lol I'm a decendent of Benjamin Harrison, signer of the Declaration of Independence, his son William Henry Harrison and his grandson, Benjamin Harrison. http://www.presidentbenjaminharrison.org/Harrison/Pres.htm both of whom were Presidents. Although, William gave an inaugural speech in the rain that was so long he ended up catching pneumonia and dying a month later. :o that's embarrassing to admit...

But the first Benjamin Harrison father to William, was a signer of the Declaration of Independence. :D And his signature is right under Thomas Jefferson's :D:D http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/signers/harrison.htm


Any one else related to Presidents?

ps. I picked Woodrow Wilson for ushering in the Federal Reserve...... the creep!

I am related to Thomas Jefferson directly through the Rogers line, and Zachary Taylor through the Rawlings-Lee line. Most of my maternal family still lives in Albemarle County, Virginia.

[Aratus]

This list is actually missing someone very, very important...

But, the poll itself is subjective.. I mean, seriously, why is Bill Clinton on there?


newt gingrich? people agreed with him???:D

(also, all opinion polls by definition are sublimely subjective!)

[Kade]

newt gingrich? people agreed with him???:D

(also, all opinion polls by definition are sublimely subjective!)

George Jr.?

I can pretty much tell you that my Grandkids one day will be hearing about this man, and what I think of him...

I lived in Gingrich's district in Georgia for several years, and then Barrs. Both the men are clowns.

[Aratus]

I am related to Thomas Jefferson directly through
the Rogers line, and Zachary Taylor through the Rawlings-Lee line. Most of
my maternal family still lives in Albemarle County, Virginia.


Kade, anything i claim is more indirect! aren't most of the virginian presidents
loosely related? as to our POTUS virginians, most likely norma jean baker was
a monroe through the late president's relatives. decendants of james monroe
actually live one town over from me, here in the baystate. their ancestor is his
youngest surviving daughter of his three children. i discovered this recently in
a local library when taking out a book, it had been a gift to the library...

since i have a peabody ancestor, i know JQA is a relative. i've got warren ancestors,
and am a decendant of elder brewster. then again, with my new amsterdam colony
ancestor meeting up with my french huguenat ancestor who as a Loyalist heads on up
to nova scotia in the 1780s as his patriot brother agrees to run the family farm, i MIGHT
be related to the Delanos. with my irish grandmother being a first cousin to the Kelly
who emigrated to philadelphia, even president clinton has to be tossed into the mix
for he too through his mother could be related to grace kelly!!! as to jfk, his ancestors
are on the other side of the island from galway! dare i meantion salem's laurie cabot?

Kade, any randolph blood? is john marshall also kith and kin? you have a very concise focus!
also correct me if i am wrong or mistaken, zach taylor is a relative of robert e. lee!!! so, Kade,
the fellow who ended up his days as the president of a university is also THY relative! if i remember
my history full well!!! loosely put, by blood or marriage, the loose ties of the old colonials!!!
the bay colony has anyone who has an ancestor prior to 1710 being related to everyone else!

[Kade]

Kade, anything i claim is more indirect! aren't most of the virginian presidents
loosely related? as to our POTUS virginians, most likely norma jean baker was
a monroe through the late president's relatives. decendants of james monroe
actually live one town over from me, here in the baystate. their ancestor is his
one surviving daughter of his three children. i discovered this recently in a local
library when taking out a book.

since i have a peabody ancestor, i know JQA is a relative. i've got warren ancestors,
and am a decendant of elder brewster. then again, with my new amsterdam colony
ancestor meeting up with my french huguenat ancestor who as a Loyalist heads on up
to nova scotia in the 1780s as his patriot brother agrees to run the family farm, i MIGHT
be related to the Delanos. with my irish grandmother being a first cousin to the Kelly
who emigrated to philadelphia, even president clinton has to be tossed into the mix
for he too through his mother could be related to grace kelly!!! as to jfk, his ancestors
are on the other side of the island from galway! dare i meantion salem's laurie cabot?

Kade, any randolph blood? is john marshall also kith and kin? you have a very concise focus!


On the same side, my mother's side of the family being mostly Virginians, I am direct, straight down the line descendant of both William Barton Rogers and Benjamin Franklin Randolph from Robert Randolph his son.

My great grandfather Charles Rogers Jr. had all daughters, and thus my name is permanently representative of my Mother's father, a son of a Portuguese immigrant. Because the lines mix so heavily towards the 17-18th centuries, there is a near guarantee that most anyone in the Virginia families you can name is of relation, as both Taylor and Jefferson trace lines to the Mayflower families. Rogers hall is named after this side of the family in William and Mary.

the Delano connection you have is interesting, I know a family in Georgia who were Delanos.

[Aratus]

i feel william harrison was ill fatedly unlucky. getting a winter cold from
a long drizzly snowflaked march day at his age was a minor tragedy.
john tyler did not have the full support of the newly appointed cabinet.
the 1800s did not always have instances of longevity. an ireland born
great uncle of mine happily served on the good ship Maine until perhaps they
go into the hotter climes, for he basically dies of food poisoning just before
the ship then tries to steam into port in havana in 1898. he may have known
some of the men killed by perhaps those two explosions, one being perhaps an
ancient aquatic mine, the other the ship's coal bin AFTER the waterspout that
some of the eyewitnesses saw. its still a mystery. another of my great uncles
was an irish cop in boston in 1919 during the stike that governor coolidge fires.

[Kade]

i feel william harrison was ill fatedly unlucky. getting a winter cold from
a long drizzly snowflaked march day at his age was a minor tragedy.
john tyler did not have the full support of the newly appointed cabinet.
the 1800s did not always have instances of longevity. an ireland born
great uncle of mine happily served on the good ship Maine until perhaps they
go into the hotter climes, for he basically dies of food poisoning just before
the ship then tries to steam into port in havana in 1898. he may have known
some of the men killed by perhaps those two explosions, one being perhaps an
ancient aquatic mine, the other the ship's coal bin AFTER the waterspout that
some of the eyewitnesses saw. its still a mystery. another of my great uncles
was an irish cop in boston in 1919 during the stike that governor coolidge fires.

You live in Boston now right? I'm there every weekend. :)

I've lived in many cities in my life, but Boston is the town of towns.

[Aratus]

Kade, you have this marvelous ability to focus let alone this almost
anti-federalist ability to question! monroe and marshall were once
school chums. the swearing in then was more folksy than madison's
had been! i had this feeling, sorta. just as i think elder brewster's
wife was a wentworth and had distant next of kin at wentworth
hall back in the north of england, i think there is a tyler ancestor to
jamie monroe. i'm perhaps guessing at the delano connection, yet reasonably
certain on the peabody family marriage. my ancestors being methodist ministers in worcester
and the churchmouse poor side of the family tree. with my luck, president
clinton who actually began life as a blythe until his adoption by his step-father
is also VERY distantly related. i'm totally certain about john adams and JQA
as well as grace kelly! laurie cabot had been salem's official town witch...

[Aratus]

i'm near boston, not in the same! you and i actually fluxuate
between being 30 and perhaps 10 miles apart, depending
on how you drive out and away from the same, or is it 30
and 50 miles apart if you go either due north or due south!
i'm on the other side of 128! jim ogonowski ran in my district!
the same district i kept my INDEPENDENT status up for this
embarrassing february! had i voted, i could have gone places
this april 5th! hippie me could not legitimately try to convert
good nice ronald reagan republicans from actor mitt romney awe
or I LIKE IKE mccain certainties! and like any activist, my libertarianism
is more obvious than my republicanism! i think i'm voting for jim ogonowski.

[Aratus]

i didn't attend meet-ups! Kade, if you were at local meet-ups!
i'm sorta late to the cause in a hippie way, and then Gravel freaks
me out. just after i got to post here on these forums, he goes
libertarian! the stock market jitters and the "W"and his brash saber-wrattlin'
set me off, let alone this request for a PATRIOT ACT III... i went livid!
i know JOHN KERRY tosses someone else's medals over that there
white~house fence, and yes... he's anti-war and not truely fond of
the PATRIOT ACT II.. but lately his stances don't cut it. things were
looking more dire or more loused up. bollixed up. i even had the idea
BUSH wants to invade four seperate nations almost simultaniously.
if not at least two or three of them. again, alarming. new deal liberalism
got jettisoned as i went more ayn rand. with a bigger more cumbersome
war and a loused over budget bloat, i was upset. we are still a republic!!!

[Aratus]

looks above... i KNOW i was rough on poor nice hapless james buchanan! you see...
henry clay, john c. calhoun and dan'l webster had ALREADY passed away. i knew this...

[klamath]

Lincoln was the unfortunate Chap that was president when the fatal flaw in the constitution ripped the document apart. I am surprised the country survived at all with the flaw in the constitution as written.

[Aratus]

oh taxachusetts, yes... if there is more of a war, we be more than taxed for the same!

[Kade]

i didn't attend meet-ups! Kade, if you were at local meet-ups!
i'm sorta late to the cause in a hippie way, and then Gravel freaks
me out. just after i got to post here on these forums, he goes
libertarian! the stock market jitters and the "W" brash saber-wrattlin'
set me off, let alone this request for a PATRIOT ACT III... i went livid!
i know JOHN KERRY tosses someone else's medals over that there
whitehouse fence, and yes... he's anti-war and not truely fond of
the PATRIOT ACT II.. but lately his stances don't cut it. things were
looking more dire or more loused up. bollixed up. i even had the idea
BUSH wants to invade four seperate nations almost simultaniously.
if not at least two or three of them. again, alarming. new deal liberalism
got jettisoned as i went more ayn rand. with a bigger more cumbersome
war and a loused over budget bloat, i was upset. we are still a republic!!!

I attend the Boston Mensan meetings occasionally. Region 1 folk like Engelke.

I come from Newport though.

I also left new deal liberalism around my last two years in college... Fountainhead didn't do it... it was actually Karl Popper-open society...
but I still prefer the Liberal moniker.

[Kade]

oh taxachusetts, yes... if there is more of a war, we be more than taxed for the same!

We New Englanders are paying for this war. We are also paying for the welfare states of Texas and the other "bible belt" states who can't make much of their own money... irony in the voting, no?

Yet we remain the more liberal, and also in allowing for certain entitlement benefits in our voting records!

[Aratus]

bond servant status permutated in a most peculiar way, kade.
merrie auld england and then ireland in tyme hath a caste system.
class presumes a mobility, if well deserved, a meritocracy! someone
recently quoted again JFK's merrie dining alone quip about THY relative
and if we be mayflower, distantly distantly mine! i know for certain madison,
monroe and washington knew themselves to be time's sons of EDWARD III...
we if with puritan blood are of a mobile middle class! washington when
refusing a crown is cognicent of a bloodline going back to the 1300s!

[Aratus]

wars up tax rates. not to turn curses in poor jefferson davis's direction, yet does
the south ALSO have a civil war income tax? i knew the north did, and the recently
read mckinley biographies had me cognicent of the one during the brief splendid lil' war.

[Kade]

bond servant status permuated in a most peculiar way, kade.
merrie auld england and then ireland in tyme hath a caste system.
class presumes a mobility, if well deserved, a meritocracy! someone
recently quoted again JFK's merrie dining alone quip about THY relative
and if we be mayflower, distantly distantly mine! i know for certain madison,
monroe and washington knew themselves to be time's sons of EDWARD III...
we if with puritan blood are of a mobile middle class! washington when
refusing a crown is cognicent of a bloodline going back to the 1300s!

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent and of human knowledge that has ever been gathered together at the White House — with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

Monarchs in name only! Imperialistic Presidents and Prime Ministers wield greater power now, in the information age, than any former kings before them... the tavern bathrooms could very well be the stablehand spies.

The proletariat are the consumer... the products of the manufactured consent. No tyranny lasted long in the discharge of the intellectuals among them, no doubt.

[Kade]

wars up tax rates. not to turn curses in poor jefferson davis's direction, yet does
the south ALSO have a civil war income tax? i knew the north did, and the recently
read mckinley biographies had me cognicent of the one during the brief splendid lil' war.

Western Virginians were made to pay the Civil War income tax, the other states I don't believe were... replaced by the Internal Revenue Act

[Aratus]

the dissident mormon flock found modern texas...? and are now are inside
the "down side" of this welfare state? this is after the 33 year old
hoax caller being tracked down? the compound's isolation is hinted at
by the spread of chicken pox so quickly? again, big brother knows all?
said sardonically. this all could have gone thru its paces as ex-governor mitt
was media blitzing running. i wondered if someone simply awaited for a reason!

[Kade]

the dissident mormon flock found modern texas...? and are now are inside
the "down side" of this welfare state? this is after the 33 year old
hoax caller being tracked down? the compound's isolation is hinted at
by the spread of chicken pox so quickly? again, big brother knows all?
said sardonically. this all could have gone thru its paces as ex-governor mitt
was media blitzing running. i wondered if someone simply awaited for a reason!

Curious. My utter distaste for Romney would blind me to the injustice... the questions it brings up are of philosophical nature, and the extent of power we are willing to allow... what exceptions, and why... most importantly....HOW.

The chicken pox was indeed curious.... geography is the arbiter of species, the god of evolution, if you will. Thousands of year of such isolation could cause reproductive differences... will this sort of isolation become a split?

Can you imagine a more important question than asking if we have an internal and natural right to secede from society altogether?

[Aratus]

again, currency issues or taxes... a war unpaid for by solid gold or the like
either has loans or taxes, or an INFLATED currency. FDR meets HERBERT HOOVER
as shanghai in 1937 encounters the markets of 1929 to 1930 and also the
woodrow wilson expansionism that involved us in europe. if nato overlaps the E.U
and a nato command zone is in afganistan as the U.k is still in SEATO, where are
we if Bush seeks to secure the korean peninsual as we go ALL over ther mid-east
up to the chinese and indian border regions? bush being irreligious seems preferable
to he having a stance more extreme than bob barr's ten commandments having to
be on a lawn other than his own. i know his family had this summer place for 100 yrs
up in Maine, yet this is no guarantee over a full wig~out in a direction that is not WHIG!

[Kade]

And on that thought, does this differ in any debate about genetic engineering... is not the isolation any different than tinkering with one's own DNA?

[rancher89]

You live in Boston now right? I'm there every weekend. :)

I've lived in many cities in my life, but Boston is the town of towns.

I enjoyed Boston when we went up for the tea party. We met so many really nice people. I've never heard car horns go off so much tho, everytime you turned around someone was honking at someone....we don't do that so much down south......

[Kade]

again, currency issues or taxes... a war unpaid for by solid gold or the like
either has loans or taxes, or an INFLATED currency. FDR meets HERBERT HOOVER
as shanghai in 1937 encounters the markets of 1929 to 1930 and also the
woodrow wilson expansionism that ivolved us in europe. if nato overlaps the E.U
and a nato command zone is in afganistan as the U.k is still in CEATO, where are
we if Bush seeks to secure the korean peninsual as we go ALL over ther mid-east
up to the chinese and indian border regions? bush being irreligious seems preferable
to he having a stance more extreme than bob barr's ten commandments having to
be aon a lawn other than his own. i know his family had this summer place for 100 yrs
up in Maine, yet this is no guarantee over a full wig~out in a direction that is not WHIG!

Pakistan and U.S. are also members of SEATO...

[Aratus]

our young are given their shots in childhood if not toddlerhood.
the kids came down with the disease upon being compounded
together NEAR our mainstream people. this is an 1850s utopian format
with perhaps rural electrification encountering the mutation rates of
our public school systems! the poor kids were sick! it hints at an isolation!

[Kade]

I enjoyed Boston when we went up for the tea party. We met so many really nice people. I've never heard car horns go off so much tho, everytime you turned around someone was honking at someone....we don't do that so much down south......

I noticed that too...

The funny party is that it is meant as a way to cheer, or a way to express anger...

You can't really tell..
If there is a BoSox game, hope you get stuck in traffic from a crowd coming off a win.

[Aratus]

the powers that be are DNA testing to confirm the confusions
engendered by these doctrinaire vintage 1850s family trees.

[Aratus]

the rEVOLUTIOn tea party was not a bad idea
going to St. Paul to contest things most mccain/feingold
is a very brilliant move! an' gettin' the au-h2o planking in place
mayhap cools some whitehouse meglomania! i have my choises!

[Aratus]

bo-sox fans can be over the top... yes! ~~~boston has very lousy traffic flows!
its still a grid of colonial goat-paths! the "hub" designation is from the spokes
of the wheel from an old surveyors map out onto the early nearby settlements!

[Aratus]

pessimistically the above poll did not extend to our hypothetical next three
presidents! irreguardless of who gets in, they may only be one term... and if a crisis
deepens, the opposing party if not a new party altogether then wins, and if things
worsen some more almost past what happens to hoover... who knows what next!!!

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Abe made the first real grab for executive power, setting the stage for future abuses by his successors.

Because our government started off with only 1 party, a natural totalitarian system arose during the infancy of our nation's functioning. This represented the first grab for executive power when the legal precedent of the 2 party system was created. While the Federalists party was created as a challenge to ammend the Constitution, the Democratic Republican party was created to preserve it. The Democratic Republicans feared that any ammending process would go beyond simple clarification to the degree that the whole Constitution would be thrown out.
The legal precedent of the 2 party system allowed government a way of interpreting the Constitutionality of laws because the Supreme Court at that time did not handle such a function as it was only in the business of penalizing states with "Writs of Mandimus." So, if they wanted to express their interpretation of the Constitution, a party needed to win executive power.
Lincoln did indeed increase the power of the Executive branch but he did so to preserve the Union as a modern civilization. He achieved this task by both the freeing of the slaves and the binding of the masters. Both of these tasks were needed to keep the natural form of a primitive caste system out of our modern civilization.


In addition, due to his poor handling of the Civil War and Reconstruction, we still have race relations problems today, a hundred and fifty years after the end of slavery.

Before the time of Confucius and Socrates, teachers were only in the business of training. They trained the children of the "master" castes how to take the reigns of power to prepare them for the end of their parent's rule. No one dared consider that the poor children of the serving "slave" castes could learn how to improve their happiness (which Socrates called the "good life") because such an idea endangered the futile functioning of the primitive system. So, everyone subsisted content together while dynasties from around the world perpetuated themselves for thousands of years.
Confucius in China put pressure on such dynasties when he said that: The children should obey their parents; the wives should obey their husbands; the men should obey their government; while, in turn, the government should serve the people.
More significant, it was Socrates who introduced to the world the concept of the midwife philosopher (serving teacher) to the poor. He believed every human soul existed in equal form before the time of their existence with each mind knowing everything there was to know. After darkness entered their minds during the traumatic event of their births, it was only then that all knowledge was lost. So, unlike the trainers of his time, Socrates served. He served the poor mind so that it might "recollect" knowledge that had been lost to it.
So, while government functioned as a primitive caste system of a master and slave relationship prior to both Confucius and Socrates, both of these philosophers introduced a modern concept of positive government where all people might find a degree of happiness for themselves.
As the primitive government is a natural one and the modern unnatural, there will always be pressure for modern governments to return to their natural, primitive state. So, it is naive to think that just because we freed the slaves once we have rid our nation forever of a primitive caste system. This is a process that requires a continual battle by us. This battle involves constant eradication of the caste system with the slave constantly having to be freed and the master constantly having to be bound.

Two examples of how our nation is eroding back into the tyranny of a primitive caste system are through the processes of our taxation and of our legal system. As taxes are working to eradicate the middle class from our nation for the purpose of giving money to a rich master class and to a poor slave caste, the verdicts of our legal system are sentencing people into winning master castes and into losing slave ones. As our lawmakers create legal precedents which erode our nation back into tyranny, the civil purpose our founding fathers designed into the Constitution was to eradicate such a tyranny.

[AutoDas]

Have you been to a public school? The children and teachers are certainly not happy. If government is there to make citizens happy then it's no wonder we have a corruptible government with politicians making half-truths just to get elected. I bet giving everyone a FREE Escalade (with rims) would make the citizens happy. It's not the government to pursue happiness for you.

[freedom-maniac]

WHY IS GEORGE W. BUSH NOT ON THAT LIST???????

Besides Bush, I'd have to say....Johnson, Johnson, Johnson. (LBJ). He was an eerie predecesor of Bush...Vietnam, socialism, etc.

And stop bashing on FDR. The man was a classical liberal before the Depression. Even during the 20s he was stressing that the government should keep out of business. THe only reason he had the New Deal was to get the country back on its feet instead of sitting around on his rear while people are starving like Hoover did (and by the way, Hoover didn't believe in "hands off" on the economy. His plan for helping the economy was to aid the big business owners, so while everyday people were starving, millionaires were being catered too by the govt. He was probably our first corpratist.)

[nate895]

WHY IS GEORGE W. BUSH NOT ON THAT LIST???????

Besides Bush, I'd have to say....Johnson, Johnson, Johnson. (LBJ). He was an eerie predecesor of Bush...Vietnam, socialism, etc.

And stop bashing on FDR. The man was a classical liberal before the Depression. Even during the 20s he was stressing that the government should keep out of business. THe only reason he had the New Deal was to get the country back on its feet instead of sitting around on his rear while people are starving like Hoover did (and by the way, Hoover didn't believe in "hands off" on the economy. His plan for helping the economy was to aid the big business owners, so while everyday people were starving, millionaires were being catered too by the govt. He was probably our first corpratist.)

Of course, the Great Depression would have never happened without the Fed greatly inflating the money supply.

[James Madison]

[SIZE="5"]

And stop bashing on FDR. The man was a classical liberal before the Depression. Even during the 20s he was stressing that the government should keep out of business. THe only reason he had the New Deal was to get the country back on its feet instead of sitting around on his rear while people are starving like Hoover did (and by the way, Hoover didn't believe in "hands off" on the economy. His plan for helping the economy was to aid the big business owners, so while everyday people were starving, millionaires were being catered too by the govt. He was probably our first corpratist.)

I see where you're coming from but my biggest gripe about FDR was that the man ran for FOUR terms and probably would have sought more if he didn't die in '45. It seems to me that he wanted to be "King of the United States" instead of the President of the United States.

[AutoDas]

I see where you're coming from but my biggest gripe about FDR was that the man ran for FOUR terms and probably would have sought more if he didn't die in '45. It seems to me that he wanted to be "King of the United States" instead of the President of the United States.

what does that have to do with his policies? The people voted for him all four terms.

[James Madison]

what does that have to do with his policies? The people voted for him all four terms.

It doesn't really. Like I said my personal gripe with him is that he ran four times. There are plenty of his policies that have damned this country.

[Kludge]

WHY IS GEORGE W. BUSH NOT ON THAT LIST???????

Besides Bush, I'd have to say....Johnson, Johnson, Johnson. (LBJ). He was an eerie predecesor of Bush...Vietnam, socialism, etc.

And stop bashing on FDR. The man was a classical liberal before the Depression. Even during the 20s he was stressing that the government should keep out of business. THe only reason he had the New Deal was to get the country back on its feet instead of sitting around on his rear while people are starving like Hoover did (and by the way, Hoover didn't believe in "hands off" on the economy. His plan for helping the economy was to aid the big business owners, so while everyday people were starving, millionaires were being catered too by the govt. He was probably our first corpratist.)

I figured Bush would be an easy win, so he was excluded from the first poll (and thus indirectly excluded from the 2nd)

[Fox McCloud]

And stop bashing on FDR. The man was a classical liberal before the Depression. Even during the 20s he was stressing that the government should keep out of business. THe only reason he had the New Deal was to get the country back on its feet instead of sitting around on his rear while people are starving like Hoover did (and by the way, Hoover didn't believe in "hands off" on the economy. His plan for helping the economy was to aid the big business owners, so while everyday people were starving, millionaires were being catered too by the govt. He was probably our first corpratist.)

I'll bash FDR all I want; regardless of what the situation is, his actions of institution the New Deal policies are a betrayal to America, future generations, not to mention his own principles. Also, what would be aiding the hungry and poor by instituting something like social security? That's totally out of line with those ideals and borders on open socialism (oh wait, it is).

I'm not excusing Hoover's actions, as they're bad too, but FDR's actions had much more long-term damaging effects to this country than did Hoover's actions.

Also, as someone pointed out; the Depression would have never happened if the Fed wasn't put in place, and the gold standard, kept.

[sophocles07]

Wilson

At least one source of modern problems of foreign policy and economy.

[Kludge]

bump

[Smiley Gladhands]

I vote Wilson. Fed, Income Tax, War on Drugs, War to End All Wars, etc.

And even if he was sorry at some point that he allowed the Fed the be created, that doesn't help his case at all IMO. Ignorance is no excuse, and he sure didn't get the Fed un-created afterwards, so he gets the worst president award.

[CelestialRender]

It's a hard call between a few of those, but I (anti-)voted Nixon.

The repeal of Bretton-Woods, and the formation of the modern managed-care system trump everyone but possibly FDR and Lincoln in my mind.

However, I see moral ambiguity, and misguidedness in both Lincoln and FDR, and no such mitigation for Nixon...he was just a <expletive>.

[mdh]

I went for Lincoln... and probably would again, but it seems silly that LBJ didn't make the list.

Wilson is definitly worthy, but Lincoln was the first true tyrant, who set the stage for all who would come after him.

[AutoDas]

LBJ has 4 votes.^

[HOLLYWOOD]

ABSOLUTELY! He is depicted as a savior by the mainstream, but he is the biggest cause of our troubles today. Suddenly it became acceptable for the government to spend out of control, to bail out banks and citizens, to tease other nations into attacking (Pearl Harbor), and of course...the grand daddy of them all, Japanese-American imprisonment. He may not be the most EVIL (Andrew Jackson?), but he is the cause of many problems we face today. People loved him because he just willfully fabricated money for the so-called better of the nation and average citizens. During the time, many Americans started to lose all faith in capitalism and were desperate for a more socialist/communist system. So, what did FDR to bring them back from such thoughts? He simply implemented socialist policies. Gee...no wonder why there are more regulations on business than there is businesses.


This is when the COWARDS in Washington D.C. hide behind the 2 most powerful words used as the excuse to basically conduct ANYTHING Illegal and OVERRULE the U.S. Constitution...


NATIONAL SECURITY


There's your excuse to becoming a FASCIST state, a Dictatorship, Socialist Regime.
Washington D.C. is no different than the most evil of countries... it's all well Polished, well contrived, and rehearsed in comparison.

Woodrow Wilson lit the FLAME that has the U.S. Constitution burning, the other Presidential Regimes, threw more flammable materials onto our Sacred Rights!

[Kludge]

Bump

[Fox McCloud]

is there even a point to having a 3rd poll, Kludge? At this point, it's pretty clear that it'll be down to Lincoln, FDR, and Woodrow Wilson....with the others barely making a mark...I doubt the final poll would be much different.

*shrug*

[SeanEdwards]

Wilson, for all the harm he did while in office, and for making moronic, meddling, international do-gooderism a mainstream ideology. What an asshole. And he looked like a fuckwit in that stovepipe hat.

I want to dig up his bones and pee on them.

[JS4Pat]

Can someone elaborate on the hatred of Abe?

Led the country into one of its bloodiest wars in history and destroyed State's Rights.

We have never recovered...

Read "The Real Lincoln" (http://www.amazon.com/Real-Lincoln-Abraham-Agenda-Unnecessary/dp/0761536418)

[Theocrat]

Wilson, for all the harm he did while in office, and for making moronic, meddling, international do-gooderism a mainstream ideology. What an asshole. And he looked like a fuckwit in that stovepipe hat.

I want to dig up his bones and pee on them.

At least he was a Presbyterian (http://www.adherents.com/people/pw/Woodrow_Wilson.html)! :D

[ItsTime]

i said bush because i wanted to be trendy

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

is there even a point to having a 3rd poll, Kludge? At this point, it's pretty clear that it'll be down to Lincoln, FDR, and Woodrow Wilson....with the others barely making a mark...I doubt the final poll would be much different.

*shrug*

This thread deals more with how people feel about the presidents than what they think about them based on a criteria. In fact, just setting up a criteria for this thread would take a substantial essay in the OP.
In defining the American character, FDR and Abraham Lincoln fit in perfectly with the likes of Benjamin Franklin, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Mark Twain. Figure that Abraham Lincoln is the American equivalent of Mahatma Gandhi in India. He has become a central figure on the world stage in regards to the development of the Social Contract theory. Gandhi read him a lot.
FDR was at war with a Robber Baron caste system during the time economists believed in the economic theory of Social Darwinism. He challenged the economic crisis with governmental sponsored organizations of labor. This organizational effort was ultimately successful against Social Darwinism, the political philosophy of the day which believed that the government shouldn't interfere with the economy because in nature the stong survive and the weak perish.
So, both of these great American leaders helped save the Union from crises.

[AutoDas]

This thread deals more with how people feel about the presidents than what they think about them based on a criteria. In fact, just setting up a criteria for this thread would take a substantial essay in the OP.
In defining the American character, FDR and Abraham Lincoln fit in perfectly with the likes of Benjamin Franklin, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Mark Twain. Figure that Abraham Lincoln is the American equivalent of Mahatma Gandhi in India. He has become a central figure on the world stage in regards to the development of the Social Contract theory. Gandhi read him a lot.
FDR was at war with a Robber Baron caste system during the time economists believed in the economic theory of Social Darwinism. He challenged the economic crisis with governmental sponsored organizations of labor. This organizational effort was ultimately successful against Social Darwinism, the political philosophy of the day which believed that the government shouldn't interfere with the economy because in nature the stong survive and the weak perish.
So, both of these great American leaders helped save the Union from crises.


If it were decided that it is best to let the poor starve to death, it would not be a decision based on the science of evolution. The word "fittest" doesn't mean either strong or week. Sometimes the freak, the weak or the small are the only animals that can survive a change in the environment. Much the way the small mammals survived to over take the dinosaurs during a cataclysm that was believed to have happened some 60 million years ago.

You contradict yourself.:rolleyes:

FDR and his New Dealers were the robber barons, Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller were the captains of industry.

[howmanysheepcanyouherd]

It was a toss up between wilson and FDR for me. I think the fact that Wilson is winning really shows that the RP people know their stuff.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

You contradict yourself.:rolleyes:

FDR and his New Dealers were the robber barons, Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller were the captains of industry.

When the Robber Barons were deployed to create industries, the government involved itself in the nation's economy by giving them huge amounts of resources. This economic policy by the government established a rich class.
It was during the Great Depression that the government changed its economic policy to one of non-involvement on the philosophy of Social Darwinism -- the strong thrive while the weak perish. It is during this time that a poor class was established.
This establishment of a rich and a poor class by the government violated the principles of positive government -- the kind of government which ideally sits all citizens at the dinner table together. In other words, these economic policies reestablished in the United States an economy which appeared much like the master/slave economies of the primitive tribal civilizations.
In order to challenge this new master class set up in the United States, FDR invested in the poor. This policy was later challenged in court. This investment wasn't challenged by corporations or companies, no; to the contrary, FDR's policy was challenged by a master class that was earlier established by the United State's government.
The ultimate civil purpose of the U.S. Constitution was and still is to abolish the primitive economic caste systems of old where masters and slaves functioned peacefully together. The economic policies established by the government before and during the Great Depression eroded our nation towards tyranny by reestablishing that kind of disparity.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

It was a toss up between wilson and FDR for me. I think the fact that Wilson is winning really shows that the RP people know their stuff.

While it is the lawyers who know their legal stuff, I'm a client. My forefathers didn't intend that I live as a bound client to legal tyrnny but as a free citizen ruled by a Constitutional government. As a citizen I don't need a lawyer to interpret the civil purpose in the Constitution because such truths are "self evident" in that they have been "unalienably" imprinted on the souls of every human being.
So, according to the founding fathers, one either has to agree with their declaration, a proclamation which can't be misunderstood or misinterpreted, or he or she isn't an American.
While legal precedents can be misinterpreted, the civil purpose is undeniable.

[AutoDas]

You are getting your antebellum South confused with the industrial revolution. It is not slavery to work for a wage.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

You are getting your antebellum South confused with the industrial revolution. It is not slavery to work for a wage.

There exists a "self evident" truth in the Constitution which is undeniable to both liberal and conservative American alike. This truth reduces itself to a degree that is it indelibly imprinted as "unalienable" onto every soul. So, according to our founding fathers, the conscience of all human beings know certain truths.

[MS0453]

This thread deals more with how people feel about the presidents than what they think about them based on a criteria. In fact, just setting up a criteria for this thread would take a substantial essay in the OP.
In defining the American character, FDR and Abraham Lincoln fit in perfectly with the likes of Benjamin Franklin, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Mark Twain. Figure that Abraham Lincoln is the American equivalent of Mahatma Gandhi in India. He has become a central figure on the world stage in regards to the development of the Social Contract theory. Gandhi read him a lot.
FDR was at war with a Robber Baron caste system during the time economists believed in the economic theory of Social Darwinism. He challenged the economic crisis with governmental sponsored organizations of labor. This organizational effort was ultimately successful against Social Darwinism, the political philosophy of the day which believed that the government shouldn't interfere with the economy because in nature the stong survive and the weak perish.
So, both of these great American leaders helped save the Union from crises.

They may have "saved" the "union", but they completely squashed out American liberties in the process. And if Lincoln and Roosevelt contributed to the American Character, that would probably explain the pitiful state America finds itself in today.


Besides, your history is completely invented. FDR fought the economists? Who do you think constructed the New Deal? The intellectuals of course! The man admittedly never read a book on economics. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/woods2.html) I would highly suggest losing the romanticism.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

They may have "saved" the "union", but they completely squashed out American liberties in the process. And if Lincoln and Roosevelt contributed to the American Character, that would probably explain the pitiful state America finds itself in today.

The purpose of establishing revolutions and movements where blood is sacrificed and our Constitutional government is reestablished respectively, is to define the American character. In his Gettisburg address, Abraham Lincoln consecrated the blood shed in the civil war to the founding fathers and the Declaration of Independence.
Likewise, Ralph Waldo Emerson, the father of the American movement called transcendentalism, helped reestablish the distinct culture of what it was to be an American citizen as defined in the Declaration of Independence. Before that time, Americans had fallen into a stupor where they reverted bacl to living more like Europeans.
Finally, Martin Luther King established that it is UnAmerican to be hateful. This distinct insight into the American culture is all we need to take from the civil rights movement while such a claim can be substantiated extensively from quotes made by the founding fathers.


Besides, your history is completely invented. FDR fought the economists? Who do you think constructed the New Deal? The intellectuals of course! The man admittedly never read a book on economics. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/woods2.html) I would highly suggest losing the romanticism.

The Constitution had a civil purpose. That purpose took up the primitive economy in regards to the old caste system which had masters ruling over slaves versus the more modern economy which was based on the theory of positive government. As the master and slave did not share authority in the primitive caste systems, the civil purpose of positive government is to ideally sit every face at the dinner table. A person's face represents authority.
If the civil purpose of our Constitution isn't to rid our nation consistantly of its natural tendencies to erode back to the tyrannies of the past caste systems, then what good is it?

[AutoDas]

Are you sure you're in the right place? I've seen constitutionalists before, but you take it to a socialist level like Gravel that I don't want to see.
The Constitution is a social contract between its people represented through the states to the federal government. Its role in society is to protect life, liberty, and property. Does it make you feel good when you say that the government is supposed to seat everyone at the table? I don't want to sit at the same table as those people. Once see a parasite like that, you know it's true what Hitler remarked that the swine eat the flesh of their own.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Are you sure you're in the right place? I've seen constitutionalists before, but you take it to a socialist level like Gravel that I don't want to see.

I am part of a bi-partisan movement to reestablish and reconsecrate the Constitutional government of the United States. This bi-partisan movement is made up of liberals, communists, lesbians, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, whites, catholics, Jews, women, atheists, scythians, Protestants, Insurance companies, militants, nuns, ex-Green Berets, politicians, lawyers, oil company executives, heterosexuals, feminists and lumberjacks.
Why are you afraid of the word socialist? Hatred is the greatest threat against the United States today, not liberalism, Marxism, socialism, or communism.


The Constitution is a social contract between its people represented through the states to the federal government. Its role in society is to protect life, liberty, and property. Does it make you feel good when you say that the government is supposed to seat everyone at the table? I don't want to sit at the same table as those people. Once see a parasite like that, you know it's true what Hitler remarked that the swine eat the flesh of their own.

Once again, I'm only a political scientist who likes to fish. I am not a lawyer which means I don't know anything about the secondary legal precedents outside of the Constitution. This ample amount of free time allows me to actually talk about fishing while I am fishing.