WORST President? (Poll 1/3)

[Kludge]

This is going to go three threads in as to who was the WORST president BEFORE DUBYA.

The FIRST 10 presidents listed will move on to an actual poll, where the top three will go on to compete for the title of Most Unpopular President Among L(Little "l")ibertarians.

I nominate President Abraham Lincoln.

[weslinder]

Lyndon Johnson, hands down.

[Unspun]

I nominate President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Richard Nixon. I also second Abraham Lincoln.

[Unspun]

Lyndon Johnson, hands down.

Also seconded.

[Kludge]

I nominate President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Richard Nixon.

Pick one of the two listed

[yongrel]

Since FDR and LBJ have already been mentioned, I'll add Abraham Lincoln.

Abe was a brilliant writer and statesman, but that bugger is responsible for so many of the problems we're dealing with today.

EDIT: I just noticed the OP nominated lincoln. Damn.

[LibertyOfOne]

Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Ronald I want to build space weapons RayGun.

[Unspun]

Pick one of the two listed

Since LibertyofOne nominated FDR, I will choose Tricky Dicky.


Franklin Delano Roosevelt

And, then second LOO's nomination.

[Kludge]

Since FDR and LBJ have already been mentioned, I'll add Abraham Lincoln.

Abe was a brilliant writer and statesman, but that bugger is responsible for so many of the problems we're dealing with today.

Yongrel.... Yongrel....! I hope you have an ad hominem for your failure to read.

[Kludge]

Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Ronald I want to build space weapons RayGun.

One or the other :rolleyes:

[Bradley in DC]

I nominate President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Richard Nixon. I also second Abraham Lincoln.

Those would by my three nominees.

[LibertyOfOne]

One or the other :rolleyes:

He was the first big government conservative. Plus him and Nancy stepping up the drug war was not a good thing for this country.

[Kludge]

He was the first big government conservative. Plus him and Nancy stepping up the drug war was not a good thing for this country.

So you're picking Reagan over FDR?

[LibertyOfOne]

So you're picking Reagan over FDR?

No, I'm picking both for various reasons. Other people here have listed more than one. This thread would be good to pick names from than we can create a poll.

[Kludge]

No, I'm picking both for various reasons. Other people here have listed more than one.

And I asked them pick one or the other =P

[LibertyOfOne]

And I asked them pick one or the other =P

FDR it is...

[Anti Federalist]

Where's your sense of history you guys??!!

Not a single mention of Woodrow Wilson??

First on my list, followed by Abe then both Roosevelts.

[weslinder]

He was the first big government conservative. Plus him and Nancy stepping up the drug war was not a good thing for this country.

Eisenhower was a big government "conservative". (I'm not nominating him, as far as socialists go, he wasn't horrible.)

[yongrel]

Where's you're sense of history you guys??!!

Not a single mention of Woodrow Wilson??

First on my list, followed by Abe then both Roosevelts.

Woodrow is 3rd on my list, after FDR and Abe. Damn League of Nations.

[menoname]

Jefferson, just joking. Abe is my choice.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

This is going to go three threads in as to who was the WORST president BEFORE DUBYA.

The FIRST 10 presidents listed will move on to an actual poll, where the top three will go on to compete for the title of Most Unpopular President Among L(Little "l")ibertarians.

I nominate President Abraham Lincoln.

You have to be joking.

[Fox McCloud]

I nomiate Woodrow Wilson

He signed the Federal Reserve Act, and set in place the ideology of "we have to make the world safe for democracy", which is the basis for an interventionist policy.

FDR and Abraham Lincoln have already been mentioned....

I'd say Bill Clinton too, for bombing so much.

[polomertz]

Where's you're sense of history you guys??!!

Not a single mention of Woodrow Wilson??

First on my list, followed by Abe then both Roosevelts.


Woodrow Wilson would be first on my list as well.

[AutoDas]

Woodrow Wilson

Typical Democrapt.
He was a segregationist, tried to reduce America's sovereignty with the League of Nations after failing to solve the run-up to the Great War that the nation wanted no part of, and passed many government monopolistic acts that were the catalysts needed for the Great Depression.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I nominate President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Richard Nixon. I also second Abraham Lincoln.

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln were great leaders in charge of American movements to reestablish the civil purpose in the Constitution. That is what is important. Any counterfeit wealth or legal precedent challenging the civil purpose of the Constitution is nothing more than excrement. Doo doo.
Franklin Roosevelt created the measures of the New Deal to combat the philosophy of social Darwinism during the Great Depressions. Abraham Lincoln was like Gandhi in that both leaders were lawyers and both felt people should be encouraged to settle out of court. Also like Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln was trying to save a divided nation. Unlike Abraham Lincoln, Gandhi was unable to keep India from splitting into 2 nations.
The Gettisburg Address was nothing less than Lincoln's reconsecration of the Founding Father's Declaration of Independence before he proceeded to take steps to reunite the Union.
Nixon was not part of any movement so he certainly should be part of anyone's poor list.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Since FDR and LBJ have already been mentioned, I'll add Abraham Lincoln.

Abe was a brilliant writer and statesman, but that bugger is responsible for so many of the problems we're dealing with today.

EDIT: I just noticed the OP nominated lincoln. Damn.

Did anyone take notes in Government class? George Washington set a surprizingly gentle precedent for what was expected to be a strong administrative position of the Presidency in the U.S. government. Andrew Jackson was so popular and such a dominating president that the Whig party was created to limit the power of the Administrative branch relative to the Congressional branch. Lincoln later expanded the power of the Presidency by establishing new legal policies necessary to save the Union.

[Unspun]

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln were great leaders in charge of American movements to reestablish the civil purpose in the Constitution. That is what is important. Any counterfeit wealth or legal precedent challenging the civil purpose of the Constitution is nothing more than excrement. Doo doo.
Franklin Roosevelt created the measures of the New Deal to combat the philosophy of social Darwinism during the Great Depressions. Abraham Lincoln was like Gandhi in that both leaders were lawyers and both felt people should be encouraged to settle out of court. Also like Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln was trying to save a divided nation. Unlike Abraham Lincoln, Gandhi was unable to keep India from splitting into 2 nations.
The Gettisburg Address was nothing less than Lincoln's reconsecration of the Founding Father's Declaration of Independence before he proceeded to take steps to reunite the Union.
Nixon was not part of any movement so he certainly should be part of anyone's poor list.

Killing 600,000 Americans is OK, as long as there is some greater purpose behind it, right?

[nate895]

Did anyone take notes in Government class? George Washington set a surprizingly gentle precedent for what was expected to be a strong administrative position of the Presidency in the U.S. government. Andrew Jackson was so popular and such a dominating president that the Whig party was created to limit the power of the Administrative branch relative to the Congressional branch. Lincoln later expanded the power of the Presidency by establishing new legal policies necessary to save the Union.

You call yourself a Ron Paul supporter?

The Presidency was setup to execute the laws of Congress and direct the military in times of war (which you can argue is redundant because war is in law). It wasn't meant to set laws or policy, except in cases of peace terms in war time and who they sent out to be ambassadors and consulars to nations.

[ChooseLiberty]

Woodrow Wilson - Federal Reserve, League of Nations, CFR (Edward Mandell House, Bernard Baruch, Otto Kahn, Jacob Schiff, Paul Warburg, J. P. Morgan, John D. Rockefeller).

He sold the US out to the International Bankers the same way Bush sold out to the Neocons. Weak minded puppet president controlled behind the scenes.

[constitutional]

Woodrow Wilson - He started off nice with non-interventionalist policy but made a 180 degree turn during the brink of WWI.

[LEK]

Woodrow Wilson and everyone after him.

[LEK]

Woodrow Wilson - He started off nice with non-interventionalist policy but made a 180 degree turn during the brink of WWI.

It was all down hill after that.

[klamath]

Wilson

[bkreigh]

Chalk another one up for Wilson!

[Gadsden Flag]

Unpopular as he seems to be here, I like Lincoln.



I nominate Woodrow Wilson and Lyndon Johnson. (Although Johnson did help end segregation)

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Woodrow Wilson.

[Theocrat]

I nominate Woodrow Wilson (Dubya Dubya).

[Cowlesy]

Buchanan.

[dirknb@hotmail.com]

I have to vote for Woodrow because of the Fed.

[JRegs85]

Close call between Woodrow Wilson and FDR.

[Kludge]

Buchanan.

Good choice! He's not terribly well-known (I thought you were speaking of Pat at first...) but had many the same terrible ideologies held by Lincoln.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Killing 600,000 Americans is OK, as long as there is some greater purpose behind it, right?

The purpose in fighting the American civil war was not to divide our nation into north and south but to further rid it of a caste system made up of masters and slaves. Such a primitive caste system was functioning peacefully in Africa prior to and after the civil war. We know this is true because Africa did not have a modern civilization.
The Union movement, the New Deal and the Civil Rights movements were also movements where millions of people died to eraticate the slave and the master caste system from our modern civilization.
So, it depends on what you desire really. Pretty women never have problems in acquiring their lipstick regardless of what government governs over them. Government has a specific social purpose to tend to the disadvantaged for this reason. If one happens to be born with a lot of natural ability and beauty, then one doesn't need to live in a modern civilization to prosper.

[Anti Federalist]

Uncle EW wrote:


Government has a specific social purpose to tend to the disadvantaged for this reason. If one happens to be born with a lot of natural ability and beauty, then one doesn't need to live in a modern civilization to prosper.

Whooaaa.

So, what you are saying is: freedom only works if you are beautiful, rich or both.

If you are neither, government must "level the playing field for you".

The other poster was right. You sure you are in the right forum?

[Kludge]

The purpose in fighting the American civil war was not to divide our nation into north and south but to further rid it of a caste system made up of masters and slaves. Such a primitive caste system was functioning peacefully in Africa prior to and after the civil war. We know this is true because Africa did not have a modern civilization.
The Union movement, the New Deal and the Civil Rights movements were also movements where millions of people died to eraticate the slave and the master caste system from our modern civilization.
So, it depends on what you desire really. Pretty women never have problems in acquiring their lipstick regardless of what government governs over them. Government has a specific social purpose to tend to the disadvantaged for this reason. If one happens to be born with a lot of natural ability and beauty, then one doesn't need to live in a modern civilization to prosper.

Lincoln had NO RIGHT to declare war on states who seceded within their rights.

If the Northerners didn't want the "slave caste system", they still have no right to kill others in an effort to assimilate them into their ideology.

[Kludge]

I still need 2 more presidents to move on to the 2nd poll.

[AutoDas]

The purpose in fighting the American civil war was not to divide our nation into north and south but to further rid it of a caste system made up of masters and slaves. Such a primitive caste system was functioning peacefully in Africa prior to and after the civil war. We know this is true because Africa did not have a modern civilization.
The Union movement, the New Deal and the Civil Rights movements were also movements where millions of people died to eraticate the slave and the master caste system from our modern civilization.
So, it depends on what you desire really. Pretty women never have problems in acquiring their lipstick regardless of what government governs over them. Government has a specific social purpose to tend to the disadvantaged for this reason. If one happens to be born with a lot of natural ability and beauty, then one doesn't need to live in a modern civilization to prosper.

Are you saying it's the government's duty to provide for the disadvantaged? I can understand sticking behind the Union movement and Civil Rights movement (not the actual act passed by Congress), but the New Deal worsened the plight for the poor. Stop throwing around the word, "slave;" it has an actual meaning and not your distortion that social Darwinism is slavery. Abraham had no interest in freeing the slaves.

[mmink15]

daddy dubya

[Anti Federalist]

"If I could save the Union without freeing a slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."

"Honest Abe" in a letter to Horace Greely - 1862

[Anti Federalist]

I still need 2 more presidents to move on to the 2nd poll.

Hamilton and TR.

[Kludge]

"If I could save the Union without freeing a slave I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."

"Honest Abe" in a letter to Horace Greely - 1862

Abe originally supported "colonization" or the "export" of slaves out of the country (not necessarily to Africa, just anywhere but here). He simply wanted the "problem" to "go away".

He picked this up from one of his political mentors, Andrew Hamilton (who contrasts on almost every policy with Jeffersion. Hence Jeffersonian and Hamiltonian.). Lincoln and Hamilton continually tried to push national banks, a battle they would have won if President (and later ex-communicated Whig Party member) John Tyler hadn't vetoed the bill.

[Kludge]

Hamilton and TR.


I'll take TR (Hamilton never won a presidential election).

[Anti Federalist]

Abe originally supported "colonization" or the "export" of slaves out of the country (not necessarily to Africa, just anywhere but here). He simply wanted the "problem" to "go away".

He picked this up from one of his political mentors, Andrew Hamilton (who contrasts on almost every policy with Jeffersion. Hence Jeffersonian and Hamiltonian.). Lincoln and Hamilton continually tried to push national banks, a battle they would have won if President (and later ex-communicated Whig Party member) John Tyler hadn't vetoed the bill.

Hence the nation of Liberia.

http://www.travisa.com/Liberia/liberiaflag.gif

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

You call yourself a Ron Paul supporter?

The Presidency was setup to execute the laws of Congress and direct the military in times of war (which you can argue is redundant because war is in law). It wasn't meant to set laws or policy, except in cases of peace terms in war time and who they sent out to be ambassadors and consulars to nations.

I am not a lawyer nor am I an experienced law maker so please don't argue legal precedents with me. Instead, I am a political scientist who appreciates the self evident (natural law) truths about our unalienable rights (written into our human souls) in the Constitution.
This civil purpose I speak exists beyond all bipartisanship and political bickering. It was first realized by Socrates at great risk to his own life and while the vision was greatly expressed by his student Plato, it wasn't until the 18th century some 2200 years later that Jean Rousseau finally shined a light on its true significance. It was only then that the idea of great government was considered as a Social Contract between the government and the people.
So, the 3 branches of our government weren't set up to express the secondary purpose of creating meaningless legal precedents, but for the primary purpose of creating legal measures to implement the civil purpose in the Constitution to the people.

[Brian4Liberty]

Buchanan.

Hmmm...Historians and the popular media tell me that Lincoln was the greatest and Buchanan was the worst. I gotta wonder...

I heard that Buchanan believed that the Federal government had no Constitutional right to force the States, or to declare war upon them. I wonder what Ron Paul's position would be if he were in Buchanan's predicament?

[Kludge]

Hmmm...Historians and the popular media tell me that Lincoln was the greatest and Buchanan was the worst. I gotta wonder...

I heard that Buchanan believed that the Federal government had no Constitutional right to force the States, or to declare war upon them. I wonder what Ron Paul's position would be if he were in Buchanan's predicament?

Courtesy Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan):

"As Southern states declared their secession in the lead-up to the American Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War), he held that secession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession) was illegal, but that going to war to stop it was also illegal."

Interestingly, during the "Utah War", he send the army to quell a rebellion.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Uncle EW wrote:



Whooaaa.

So, what you are saying is: freedom only works if you are beautiful, rich or both.

If you are neither, government must "level the playing field for you".

The other poster was right. You sure you are in the right forum?

It is how the playing field was leveled that is significant. Before the time of Socrates, dynasties in primitive civilizations employed teachers to train the Prince to take his rightful place on the throne of his father -- as Aristotle trained Alexander the Great to do later on after his father died. This was how it was in Greece during that time although Athens did have a pagan form of Democracy. Still, as sophisticated as that might sound, it still wasn't accepted by people that the minds of the poor could improve if served rather than trained by teachers. That is where Socrates is written into the picture by Plato as a midwife philosopher to the poor.
Although modern civilization wouldn't take form until much later on, it is at this pivotal moment in history when the primitive caste system trained by teachers met face to face with the idea of teachers serving the public in a more modern society. Ultimately this new concept of teachers serving the public would lead to a more modern society with the masters and slaves eradicated.

[Anti Federalist]

I'll take TR (Hamilton never won a presidential election).

Quite right and I hang my head in shame.:(

[Kludge]

Quite right and I hang my head in shame.:(

Hehe.... I wrote down Hamilton at first too ;)

[Brian4Liberty]

Interestingly, during the "Utah War", he send the army to quell a rebellion.

As we all know, even today, those darn polygamists have NO constitutional rights! :rolleyes:

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Are you saying it's the government's duty to provide for the disadvantaged? I can understand sticking behind the Union movement and Civil Rights movement (not the actual act passed by Congress), but the New Deal worsened the plight for the poor. Stop throwing around the word, "slave;" it has an actual meaning and not your distortion that social Darwinism is slavery. Abraham had no interest in freeing the slaves.

Some people don't need government because they are born naturally with the ability to enjoy all the freedoms and rights that most of us take for granted as our civil rights. These people would be the natural masters of the world while they would hire trainers to teach their superior offspring to take their natural place in high society likewise.
Now an apposing view to this natural caste system was presented by Socrates who recognized that the poor could be taught to improve their happiness if teachers (natural philosophers) were willing to serve them.
Movements like the New Deal worked well at first before they eroded into a can of worms. This is why movements need constant refreshing with new measures while legal precedents should be discarded as distractions which can endanger the sovereignty of the Constitution.
How can the word "slave" have an actual meaning when it originated as a derogatory name, much like the "n" word, towards people who reminded others of the lowly Eastern European Slavs?
Social Darwinism was a philosophy developed by the ruling elite during the Great Depression. The philosophy argued that government shouldn't interfere in the business of wealth because they believed the false notion that the strong, rich people survived naturally in an economy while the weak, poor people perished. Of course, this isn't even what Darwin was arguing because many times the weaker freakish animal will be better suited to adapt to a radically changing environment.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

As we all know, even today, those darn polygamists have NO constitutional rights! :rolleyes:

The question is why the government is bothering the smaller Mormon Church over an unsubstantiated report of child abuse while the much larger Catholic Church is being allowed to govern itself in regards to tens of thousands of substantiated reports of child abuse? Man, it is political situations like this that make me wish we ruled our government!

[AutoDas]

Your can't look to Ancient Rome and compare it to Western society, because all of the faults began with socialism. We have slavery today when the people are to assume they have a right to talent and skill of another laborer. Slavery does have a meaning, you're just misconstruing it to further your gospel of wealth.

Social Darwinism is survival of the fittest and why shouldn't the poor be at a disadvantage? Future generations would be happier if their ancestors weren't lazy, unproductive and unskilled hands. Overpopulation and famine wouldn't be a problem if people took responsibility.

[Truth Warrior]

Wilson or FDR, it's a toss up.

[apropos]

Lincoln

[Aratus]

Buchanan.


i agree... even though i feel jamie monroe was the last
POTUS open to reason, i feel i must vote for the fellow
who is followed by two presidents in short order, so i
won't be sternly harsh to EiTHER abe lincoln or jeff davis...
then so be it! the war is bloody, and about human dignity.

[Aratus]

the pennsylvanian tried to resolve the thorny basic issue that in time saw
the passing of the better minds of a generation and their lack of a solution...

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Your can't look to Ancient Rome and compare it to Western society, because all of the faults began with socialism. We have slavery today when the people are to assume they have a right to talent and skill of another laborer. Slavery does have a meaning, you're just misconstruing it to further your gospel of wealth.

Social Darwinism is survival of the fittest and why shouldn't the poor be at a disadvantage? Future generations would be happier if their ancestors weren't lazy, unproductive and unskilled hands. Overpopulation and famine wouldn't be a problem if people took responsibility.

Be careful when using that word "ancient."
As Aristotle wasn't introduced to Western Europe until the 13th century ACE, the full significance of Socrates' political insight wasn't realized until the 18th century ACE. Look, before the time of this reintroduction of Zenith philosophy, the only schools were Christian. After Aristotle's works were introduced into Western Europe during the Crusades by Arab Moor philosophers, Western Europe had to build Universities of higher learning to unravel their mysteries.

Socialism started with Hegel who argued that people could not be free without owning property. Marx and others expounded on this idea later on.
Challenging Hegel that people need to own property to be free were the early Christians after the time of Christ. Because a lot of these Christians were slaves who did not own property, they met to worship God under overturned fishing vessels. They exercized the New Covenet to "Love thy neighbor as thyself" by loving their brothers or sisters sitting next to them as their Spirtual ground.
This small cult became known as "The Way" until it grew so great that it threatened the rule of Emperor Constantine. It was then that Constantine created a new Christian religion on material grounds so that he wouldn't have to convert to the Spiritual ground made up of poor people. After this new material religion was created, the poor Christians obeying the New Covenet on Spiritual grounds had to convert to the new religion set up on material grounds.
As a result of this forceful conversion to a religion set up on material grounds, the prior Christians lost their Spiritual freedom. Now they couldn't preach the Gospel nor spread the Word of God by the oral tradition (the scriptures were set to memory).
Ultimately the bondage to religion became so great that early Christians fell under a ritual of legal precedents set up by the Pope and the Vatican while the bible wasn't allowed to be read by them unless it had been written in the Latin. The Latin version was a poor translation because it was done so second hand not by experts desiring to worship God but by novists desiring to rule the people.
The use of the derogatory word "Slave" originated from how Europeans viewed the lowly Slavs of Eastern Europe. Anyone who appeared similar to the pitiful Slav later on was called the derogatory name of a "slave" by them.

If it were decided that it is best to let the poor starve to death, it would not be a decision based on the science of evolution. The word "fittest" doesn't mean either strong or week. Sometimes the freak, the weak or the small are the only animals that can survive a change in the environment. Much the way the small mammals survived to over take the dinosaurs during a cataclysm that was believed to have happened some 60 million years ago.

[Laughingcow]

Jimmy Carter!!!! He still doing stupid shit!!!

[Cinderella]

WILSON for selling our country to the banks........LINCOLN sucked too

[travisAlbert]

Woodrow Wilson was the worst President, followed by Teddy Roosevelt, then John Adams.