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brandon
04-15-2008, 10:49 PM
Tonight we held a Ron Paul/Anti-Tax rally at the major post office in philly. We had about 15 people there handing out slim jims, and a couple people holding signs. We were there for about 2 hours without any problems. There was a police officer that told us to not block the sidewalk. We were very respectful and made sure to follow his orders. He had no problem with us.

After about two hours, more police came. These were very angry police, on a power trip. They came up to us and told us we had to move. They claimed that the sidewalk we were on, which had the public street on one side and the post office on the other, was private property owned by the post office. We got in an argument and they repeatedly threatened to lock us up. When I asked what the charge would be he said "hinderance". lol.

Meanwhile, there were people on the same sidewalk as us handing out commercial materials for dunkin donuts. These people were not asked to move. I took down all the cops badge numbers, and we ended up complying.

My one friend who was with us claims that the post office is in fact a private company, and as absurd as it sounds, they can remove us from the location.

Anyone have any insight on this?

NoxTwilight
04-15-2008, 10:52 PM
As far as I understand things, it is not private, it is a us government controlled agency albeit funded purely by postal revenues.

tangent4ronpaul
04-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Dear Meg,

A friend (lawyer) had commented as follows, but was unable to find
references off hand. He suggested that I ask you. Can you provide
legal, policy or regulation citation(s) as to the current state of
first amendment rights in front of post offices? As well as a
statement as to the current USPS possition on this matter in clear
language?

thank you,

Nathan

-----------
"... there has been some caselaw that first

amendment activity (not commercial activity) must be allowed on public
sidewalks in front of post offices, and recently the USPS simply declared
that any sidewalk in front of the post offices would be considered public
for purposes of this matter.

This was in reference to:

The exception is referenced in the opening paragraph of 39 CFR 232 Sec 1:

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under
the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies,
and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall
be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.
This section shall not apply to — ... (ii) With respect to sections
232.1(h)(1) and 232.1(o), sidewalks along the street frontage of
postal property falling within the property lines of the Postal
Service that are not physically distinguishable from adjacent
municipal or other public sidewalks, and any paved areas adjacent to
such sidewalks that are not physically distinguishable from such
sidewalks.

So, if you've got the right kind of sidewalk to work with, then it
looks like you might be able to carry on political activities near a
Post Office.

[...]

U.S. Supreme Court
UNITED STATES v. KOKINDA, 497 U.S. 720 (1990)
497 U.S. 720

UNITED STATES v. KOKINDA ET AL.
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT

No. 88-2031.

Argued February 26, 1990
Decided June 27, 1990

[...]

they
were arrested and subsequently convicted by a Federal Magistrate of
violating, inter alia, 39 CFR 232.1(h)(1), which prohibits
solicitation on postal premises. The District Court affirmed the
convictions. It rejected respondents' argument that 232.1(h)(1)
violated the First Amendment, holding that the postal sidewalk was not
a public forum and that the ban on solicitation is reasonable. The
Court of Appeals reversed. Finding that the sidewalk is a public forum
and analyzing the regulation as a time, place, and manner restriction,
it determined that the Government has no significant interest in
banning solicitation and that the regulation is not narrowly tailored
to accomplish the asserted governmental interest.

Held:

The judgment is reversed.

866 F.2d 699, reversed.
---------------
Let me know if it doesn't get through. You could also contact the public
affairs office but I'll try to find on my end also.
----------------
Hello. I've forwarded your inquiry to our Office of the General Counsel
for reply.

Meg
-------------
previous exchange:
--------------
It struck me that the Post Office is still considered federal
property, regardless or its supposed "quasi-governmental" status. It
seemed like there must be some United States Code dealing with
"political rallies" on federal property, so I set about looking for
something. After much digging, I came up with 39 CFR 232 , as
reflected in the SCOTUS case that follows below. Note that 39 CFR
232.1h(1) prohibits the activities suggested by David, with the
exception brought about by the cited SCOTUS case.

The exception is referenced in the opening paragraph of 39 CFR 232 Sec 1:

(a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under
the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies,
and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall
be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.
This section shall not apply to — ... (ii) With respect to sections
232.1(h)(1) and 232.1(o), sidewalks along the street frontage of
postal property falling within the property lines of the Postal
Service that are not physically distinguishable from adjacent
municipal or other public sidewalks, and any paved areas adjacent to
such sidewalks that are not physically distinguishable from such
sidewalks.

So, if you've got the right kind of sidewalk to work with, then it
looks like you might be able to carry on political activities near a
Post Office. But don't bet the farm that the knuckleheads inside will
understand the statutes that govern said activity. In my neighborhood,
it's a moot point: none of the Post Office sidewalks qualifies, as
there are no public sidewalks, but just grass from curbs to buildings.
I suppose that old "store front" Post Offices on "Main" Street may
qualify for the exception, but these days, new facilities are being
built entirely on their own sites, with no other businesses
immediately adjacent. Look for a trend in Post Office landscaping that
puposefully creates sidewalks separate and distinguishable from public
walk ways.
U.S. Supreme Court
UNITED STATES v. KOKINDA, 497 U.S. 720 (1990)
497 U.S. 720

UNITED STATES v. KOKINDA ET AL.
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT

No. 88-2031.

Argued February 26, 1990
Decided June 27, 1990

Respondents, members of a political advocacy group, set up a table on
a sidewalk near the entrance to a United States Post Office to solicit
contributions, sell books and subscriptions to the organization's
newspaper, and distribute literature on a variety of political issues.
The sidewalk is the sole means by which customers may travel from the
parking lot to the post office building and lies entirely on Postal
Service property. When respondents refused to leave the premises, they
were arrested and subsequently convicted by a Federal Magistrate of
violating, inter alia, 39 CFR 232.1(h)(1), which prohibits
solicitation on postal premises. The District Court affirmed the
convictions. It rejected respondents' argument that 232.1(h)(1)
violated the First Amendment, holding that the postal sidewalk was not
a public forum and that the ban on solicitation is reasonable. The
Court of Appeals reversed. Finding that the sidewalk is a public forum
and analyzing the regulation as a time, place, and manner restriction,
it determined that the Government has no significant interest in
banning solicitation and that the regulation is not narrowly tailored
to accomplish the asserted governmental interest.

Held:

The judgment is reversed.

866 F.2d 699, reversed.
[Note: To read the entire rendering, click on the title of the case
above. You will have to register for a free FindLaw account to gain
access to case files.]
-------------
I don't recall the specifics but there has been some caselaw that first
amendment activity (not commercial activity) must be allowed on public
sidewalks in front of post offices, and recently the USPS simply declared
that any sidewalk in front of the post offices would be considered public
for purposes of this matter.

I thought it was an enlightened policy decision.
--------------------
recently the USPS simply declared

that any sidewalk in front of the post offices would be considered public
for purposes of this matter.

do you have a reference?

thanks,

-n
------------
Sorry I can't find a reference for this offhand but I'm sure the Postal
Service can send you a reference if you ask them.

You can write to the Postal Historian Meg Ausman at <address removed>

And ask her if you like

brandon
04-15-2008, 11:01 PM
Wow, thank you. That is kind of tough to read through, but really good info nonetheless. I'm trying to decide where to go from here. Would it be worthwhile for me to file a complaint against the officers?

RSLudlum
04-15-2008, 11:04 PM
As far as I understand things, it is not private, it is a us government controlled agency albeit funded purely by postal revenues.


just because you own the company doesn't mean you have to own the property you operate on.


quite interesting, but don't really trust it:

http://www.americanpostalowners.com/

tangent4ronpaul
04-15-2008, 11:08 PM
Wow, thank you. That is kind of tough to read through, but really good info nonetheless. I'm trying to decide where to go from here. Would it be worthwhile for me to file a complaint against the officers?

You should sue the city, the PD and the individual cops in civil court for infringing your first amendment rights. It's too bad you didn't refuse and let them arrest you. Also, scream bloody murder and contact every press outlet you can locally and maybe national media.

-n

TastyWheat
04-16-2008, 09:06 AM
According to the "conduct on postal property" as long as you're not soliciting or causing a disturbance (lots of room for abuse there) you can do whatever outside the post office. There is a subsection about not allowing political material but it's under the voter registration section.

NeoRayden
04-16-2008, 09:10 AM
Our post office building and the land it is on is leased to the feds on a 99 year term by a private owner.

adam1mc
04-16-2008, 09:45 AM
I think we needed that citation PRIOR to the tax day protests...

Feelgood
04-16-2008, 09:47 AM
First, and this is something most people do not understand. You dont not own the property to your home, nor do they own their property. You and they own the "real estate", not the property. If you owned your own property, then who is it you pay a property tax to, each year? Yourself? No, the state in which you reside. You pay essentially to lease the property, that your real estate sets on. The real estate is defined as that property which is above ground level. If you owned your property, hell you could dig for oil or gold on your property. But you do not own it, nor the mineral rights to it.

Second, that sidewalk is a public right of way. They have no legal authority to stop you from handing out those slim jims. Now, if you were obstructing traffic, and traffic could not get into the post office, then that is a whole different story.

Bottom line, if it were me, I would file a complaint against the officers. Put everything in a statement, and allow their Internal Affairs Department to investigate it. Once IA has done their investigation, they will tell you of their findings and decisions. If the police were in the right, and I honestly do not believe they were, then they will tell you and why. If the police were in the wrong, then they will inform you of the disciplinary action taken against those officers. Most likely nothing more then a written reprimand added to their permanent file. At least they will be less likely to bother you in the future though.

I have stood up to police officers in the past. Just because they have a badge, does not mean they are right. Dont be a complete ass about things, be respectful. In all cases, youll want to "walk softly, and carry a big stick". :)

Hope this helps.

acptulsa
04-16-2008, 09:51 AM
You should sue the city, the PD and the individual cops in civil court for infringing your first amendment rights. It's too bad you didn't refuse and let them arrest you. Also, scream bloody murder and contact every press outlet you can locally and maybe national media.

-n

See if you can talk one of the people passing out flyers for the private company to testify and/or scrounge photos of them. Icing on the cake.