Do We Need Government to Build Highways?

[gocrew]

Do We Need Government to Build Highways? (http://thngstff.blogspot.com/2008/04/do-we-need-government-to-build-highways.html)

Not long ago your humble blogger was sampling the entertainment on Youtube and came across an episode of Real Time with Bill Maher. Real Time is a show on HBO, a discussion group led by Mr. Maher which features celebrities, politicians, journalists and such giving their opinions on issues. On this particular episode Congressman Barney Frank was one of the guests, and P.J. O’Rourke, one of Real Time’s “Real Correspondents” was brought on part way through. Barney Frank is a very liberal Congressman and P.J. O’Rourke is a lukewarm, half-defender of Free Market Capitalism.

Bill Maher started a debate by taking P.J. to task for a statement he had made, namely, “My money does not make you poorer.” Mr. Maher immediately disagreed, but no real delving into the topic was achieved because after a mere handful of seconds spent talking over each other Barney Frank quickly changed the subject by saying that we need government, because without it we wouldn’t have the highway system which we now enjoy. Or at least tolerate. Before the conversation precipitously careened into another area – this time the rise of the middle class in America and the putative reason for it being Federal Housing loans and such – P.J. O’Rourke confessed that Barney Frank was right and that they were in agreement about the highways.

Read the rest at:

Things and Stuff (http://thngstff.blogspot.com/)

[Mesogen]

I say we need public roads built using a public trust. The public trust typically comes in the form of or as a part of the government. Doesn't have to be that way, but I say you need most roads to be public and not private.

[nate895]

One of the powers of the Federal Government is to "post roads." I think they should be public, otherwise it inhibits severely the right to travel freely within the borders of your country.

[forsmant]

Why don't the automobile companies build the roads like the rail roads had to build their roads?

[nate895]

Why don't the automobile companies build the roads like the rail roads had to build their roads?

Because the railroads weren't in front of my house and I don't NEED to travel on a railroad to go somewhere, whereas I will need a road to go most places.

[scotto2008]

We need the government to build roads. How else are we going to force people out of their homes to bring a road through their property?

[Zippyjuan]

The government did help build the railroads. The Central Pacific Railroad was state created and the Union Pacific federally created.
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles25/railroads-21.shtml

The Union Pacific Railroad was organized on a different plan from the Central Pacific. The Central Pacific was chartered by the state government to build in California; it was a private company and in that capacity it had sought aid from the national government. When it accepted a loan from the United States government and became a common carrier across the California line it came to an extent under national control.

The Union Pacific was a creation of the United States government; it held a Federal charter and its route as planned lay entirely through the Territories, which were directly under the supervision of the national government. It was answerable there-fore to President and Congress more directly than was its western rival.



Transportation is considered to be important to the survival and prosperity of the country so the government has a stake in it running as well as possible. It is critical to the economy. Just like education and defense are important to the future of the country.

[Fox McCloud]

as much of a Libertarian, and Free-Marketeer as I am, I think this is one of the few areas that is best handled by the government; that said, I think there could be more efficient ways of making roads; a person was telling me (supposedly, don't know if this is true) that some place in California put ball bearings in their roads; it was really expensive, but they did this eons ago, and the roads are still "like new".

There's little to no innovation when it comes to building roads; that said, I still think the government handles this best (sadly).


Transportation is considered to be important to the survival and prosperity of the country so the government has a stake in it running as well as possible. It is critical to the economy. Just like education and defense are important to the future of the country.

Be careful with that last statement; the government shouldn't have a hand in the education system; look at the disaster its created here; nowhere in the Constitution does it grant us the "right" to education....defense, on the other hand, it does.

State governments can get their grubby hands in education (and unfortunately, I live in a State that is terrible about this), but the Federal government cannot.

[scotto2008]

Libertarianism for decades has been relegated to the fringes, largely as a result of the "who will build the roads?" debate and other such philosophical dead-ends.

I have no doubt that the free market would find a way to build roads, and do it better than the government.

But if you want to run an ideology into a ditch, debating abstract issues such as this is a sure way to do it. Let 'em have the roads. I want my constitution back.

[brandon]

Libertarianism for decades has been relegated to the fringes, largely as a result of the "who will build the roads?" debate and other such philosophical dead-ends.

I have no doubt that the free market would find a way to build roads, and do it better than the government.

But if you want to run an ideology into a ditch, debating abstract issues such as this is a sure way to do it. Let 'em have the roads. I want my constitution back.

+100

[pdavis]

Why worry about roads when we will all have flying cars in a free market?

[Truth Warrior]

Do we need government to build buildings?
Do we need government to build airplanes?
Do we need government to build cars?
Do we need government to build ships?
Do we need government to build farms?

Etc. :)

[Mesogen]

Do we need government to build buildings?
Do we need government to build airplanes?
Do we need government to build cars?
Do we need government to build ships?
Do we need government to build farms?

Etc. :)

Cool, can I come use your car and sleep at your house for a while? I'll be right over on your private road. It's cool with you right?

[Truth Warrior]

Cool, can I come use your car and sleep at your house for a while? I'll be right over on your private road. It's cool with you right?
Pack heat!

[Mesogen]

Funny, I don't have to pack heat on public roads.

[forsmant]

The cities of today are designed by central planners for automobile use

[HOLLYWOOD]

I thought all the State & Federal Gasoline EXCISE TAXES were to build the road infrastructure?

Oh, I forgot, government at all levels siphon those taxes for RE-ELECTION PROJECTS!

American Sheeple... wakeup!!

[Zippyjuan]

Why worry about roads when we will all have flying cars in a free market?
Given how poorly some people drive on the roads, it would be scary indeed if they had flying vehicles.


Be careful with that last statement; the government shouldn't have a hand in the education system; look at the disaster its created here; nowhere in the Constitution does it grant us the "right" to education....defense, on the other hand, it does.

You are not guaranteed food, air, or water either. That does not mean they are not important.

[forsmant]

Given how poorly some people drive on the roads, it would be scary indeed if they had flying vehicles.

Life is inherently dangerous as the natural tendency of life is to be dead.

[Patronus]

Roads should be privatized.

Think of every instance where you're required to wait in line: the post office, the DMV, on the interstates. Americans are losing millions if not billions of hours every year from sitting in traffic - all the effects of road socialism. In Texas they like to decorate bridges and overpasses with a Lone Star engraving - it might as well be a hammer and sickle.

For a serious take on this, check out the work of Walter Block from the Mises Institute. He has a great paper on the tragedy of road socialism: www.mises.org/journals/jls/3_2/3_2_7.pdf

You can also watch a talk given by him on the subject, introduced by Lew Rockwell: http://mises.org:88/1_HMC_Block

This is a very touchy subject because 99% of Americans have been ingrained to think the government has to provide such a service. Such logic is no different that the calls for universal health care.

"Americans do not tolerate shortages. Breadlines are for communist countries. Breadlines in the Soviet Union were caused by the absence of a market mechanism to match supply with demand. The genius of the free-market American system is that for everything we produce, public or private, demand is anticipated, and capital is raised to build the infrastructure to meet the demand. In the USSR, you could not raise capital. But here, we calculate how much people will pay and how many they will buy. Whether it is widgets or computer chips or water or electricity or college tuition. We borrow against that anticipated revenue and build our factories, our water treatment plants, our pipelines, our universities. That is why America never has permanent shortages. Oh, except in one thing: transportation. And until we make the shift to a free-market mechanism of finance – tolls – we will continue to have shortages, in the form of congestion. Many Americans think congestion is inevitable; it is not. It is a breadline, it is un-American, and we should not tolerate it." - Texas Rep. Mike Krusee

[Zippyjuan]

There is certainly a growing movement to privatise roads. Tolls are charged to those who use them. If the road is free, everybody can use it and will probably over use it. Just look at highways in New York or Los Angeles. If you pay a fee, you will use the road less. If the road has too much traffic, you raise the toll and the traffic decreases. The owener of the road will charge the toll which maximizes their revenue- either a small toll charged to many people or a higher toll on fewer users. That should lead to less driving and less gas consumption and related pollution. The farther you live from work the more you will have to pay in tolls so you will want to live closer to work then too.

[AutoDas]

The market will take care of it. The government has been doing a poor job at it.

[MS0453]

I'm not an anarchist, but I think there is too much of a fetish concerning state-construction of highways and roads. I remember reading one time about how in the (early, I think) 19th century, there were somewhere between 25-100 (I can't remember the exact number) companies that dealt with road construction in New York state alone. I've also read things suggesting that there is an overabundance of highways at the moment, because of a government monopoly.

If I find either article, I'd post links.

[PeterWellington]

Why couldn't the private sector provide roads? Has the private sector not already demonstrated its ability to provide much more complex products/services?

[tajitj]

I do not know about building but not to maintain. A foreign company bought Indiana Tollroad 80/90 for multimillions. That state then gave the counties the highway runs through millions of dollars. It was a very good deal for the small counties. I would be in favor of tollroads as long as they are private roads. State run tollroads piss me off though. That is why we pay taxes.

[srps2233]

Do you people even think about the ramifications of what you say for even a minute? If roads were privatized then when the police try to arrest someone because they committed a crime first of all they wouldn't be able to get to him because they'd have to use a private road. When the goddamn mail man goes to deliver your mail you all would shoot him dead for trespassing. If I went to greet my new neighbors and say hello I would be shot for trespassing in their property. Jesus Christ, sometimes I think a lot of you are just insane. Roads are one thing that should not be privatized.

edit: I am in favor of allowing private construction alongside government-built roads, however.

[Truth Warrior]

Has the government EVER built a highway, or did/does it just hire someone else to build it? DUH!!!

[tajitj]

Do you people even think about the ramifications of what you say for even a minute? If roads were privatized then when the police try to arrest someone because they committed a crime first of all they wouldn't be able to get to him because they'd have to use a private road. When the goddamn mail man goes to deliver your mail you all would shoot him dead for trespassing. If I went to greet my new neighbors and say hello I would be shot for trespassing in their property. Jesus Christ, sometimes I think a lot of you are just insane. Roads are one thing that should not be privatized.

edit: I am in favor of allowing private construction alongside government-built roads, however.

You are not getting the point. The cops have the right of arrest people on private property. The roads would not different than any other business. Laws still apply. I think you do not even understand the issue, to call people insane.

[scotto2008]

I do not know about building but not to maintain.

It's interesting how so many shiny new govt projects deteriorate to sh*t.

After the initial vote-getting debut, the market reasserts itself and resources flow back to the things that consumers are truly willing to pay for.

Since "maintenence" is not nearly as sexy politically, the project naturally becomes a burden and an eyesore. Driven on California roads lately?

[constitutional]

Do you people even think about the ramifications of what you say for even a minute? If roads were privatized then when the police try to arrest someone because they committed a crime first of all they wouldn't be able to get to him because they'd have to use a private road. When the goddamn mail man goes to deliver your mail you all would shoot him dead for trespassing. If I went to greet my new neighbors and say hello I would be shot for trespassing in their property. Jesus Christ, sometimes I think a lot of you are just insane. Roads are one thing that should not be privatized.

edit: I am in favor of allowing private construction alongside government-built roads, however.

Just because your home is private property, you can't kill someone in it.

Shoot the mailman for trespassing or neighbors for greeting? :confused: ugh... Unless roads go through, over, and under your house-- give me some of the stuff you are on.

http://oskool.com/images/Funny/are_u_on_drugs.jpg

[scotto2008]

You people are nut cases!! Car tires are too important to be left to the private sector. If the govt didn't make tires, companies could make tires out of plastic, wood or anything they wanted to, causing horrible accidents.

Any terrorist could open a tire shop and inflate tires with deadly explosive gases. Car tires could be any shape, size, or substance. A Honda tire wouldn't fit on a Chevy or a Toyota. People in rural areas couldn't get tires because it wouldn't be profitable for companies to sell them there.

No, some things are better left up to the government. Next thing you know, you loonies will be calling for privatization of the shoe service. Don't get me started on that one.

[PennCustom4RP]

I think that roadways should be under the purview of the Government, and be public.
If privatized, in a free market, will this be limited to American companies, or will any country worldwide be able to operate the roads? If not an American company, and the road owned by a foreign entity, then the road in effect becomes foreign soil, undermining the sovereignty if the US.
If privatized, will the gas tax paid for road maintenance be rescinded in lieu of the tolls paid? I highly doubt the powers that be in the Government will do away with this tax.
What comes to mind is the PA turnpike, owned and operated by the Turnpike Commission, yet this road is patrolled by State and Local police, triple dipping. You pay for the use of the road, and again with tax dollars pay for the police, and with gas taxes. This road was completed in the 30s and paid for then with the tolls, yet this road has been under repair construction for all of my 43 years, I do not think it will ever end. This road is antiquated, with speed limit slower than the public highways, and the police take advantage of this as a revenue generator with speeding fines. This is the Gestapo Hwy. Certain times of the day there is nothing but traffic. This is the major East West corridor for the State, so we are stuck with it, the State is not building a Public Hwy. I refuse to use the turnpike most times, preferring the country public roads.

[cvaldiv1]

Interesting video on the subject.

http://reason.tv/video/show/6.html

[amy31416]

I think that roadways should be under the purview of the Government, and be public.
If privatized, in a free market, will this be limited to American companies, or will any country worldwide be able to operate the roads? If not an American company, and the road owned by a foreign entity, then the road in effect becomes foreign soil, undermining the sovereignty if the US.
If privatized, will the gas tax paid for road maintenance be rescinded in lieu of the tolls paid? I highly doubt the powers that be in the Government will do away with this tax.
What comes to mind is the PA turnpike, owned and operated by the Turnpike Commission, yet this road is patrolled by State and Local police, triple dipping. You pay for the use of the road, and again with tax dollars pay for the police, and with gas taxes. This road was completed in the 30s and paid for then with the tolls, yet this road has been under repair construction for all of my 43 years, I do not think it will ever end. This road is antiquated, with speed limit slower than the public highways, and the police take advantage of this as a revenue generator with speeding fines. This is the Gestapo Hwy. Certain times of the day there is nothing but traffic. This is the major East West corridor for the State, so we are stuck with it, the State is not building a Public Hwy. I refuse to use the turnpike most times, preferring the country public roads.

Good questions. I would think that American citizens should be the only owners. We the people would really have to rally to get rid of the gas tax.

And hell yes, the PA Turnpike is a huge scam. Constantly under construction, expensive, tons of cops looking to meet quota and it's dangerous as hell. I always look for alternative routes when possible, and use I 80 even if it's inconvenient. I 80 is a very relaxing drive relative to the turnpike. Though recently they were discussing making that a toll road as well, which would suck incredibly.

[Mesogen]

I've got no problem with a gas tax to pay for public roads intended for motor vehicles.
I may be a libertarian, but I'm not an anarchist.
I don't think it's socialist to have SOME public property.
Hell, I think there should be public parks, even National Parks and Federally protected land.
Just don't pay for it with an income tax and we'll be all good.

[AutoDas]

I think that roadways should be under the purview of the Government, and be public.
If privatized, in a free market, will this be limited to American companies, or will any country worldwide be able to operate the roads? If not an American company, and the road owned by a foreign entity, then the road in effect becomes foreign soil, undermining the sovereignty if the US.
If privatized, will the gas tax paid for road maintenance be rescinded in lieu of the tolls paid? I highly doubt the powers that be in the Government will do away with this tax.
What comes to mind is the PA turnpike, owned and operated by the Turnpike Commission, yet this road is patrolled by State and Local police, triple dipping. You pay for the use of the road, and again with tax dollars pay for the police, and with gas taxes. This road was completed in the 30s and paid for then with the tolls, yet this road has been under repair construction for all of my 43 years, I do not think it will ever end. This road is antiquated, with speed limit slower than the public highways, and the police take advantage of this as a revenue generator with speeding fines. This is the Gestapo Hwy. Certain times of the day there is nothing but traffic. This is the major East West corridor for the State, so we are stuck with it, the State is not building a Public Hwy. I refuse to use the turnpike most times, preferring the country public roads.

Why should the police be on patrol on these private roads? That would be like staking out your neighborhood.


I've got no problem with a gas tax to pay for public roads intended for motor vehicles.
I may be a libertarian, but I'm not an anarchist.
I don't think it's socialist to have SOME public property.
Hell, I think there should be public parks, even National Parks and Federally protected land.
Just don't pay for it with an income tax and we'll be all good.

Libertarians are not anarchists. If you want public parks, than pay for it yourself. It's not a right to have an acre of land. If you do think the government has a right to build roads then you have no problem with them taking eminent domain over private property for the use of building roads.

[PennCustom4RP]

Why should the police be on patrol on these private roads? That would be like staking out your neighborhood..


This is what I am saying, why are the public tax funded police on the private toll road? They are and I feel they shouldn't be. The Turnpike Commission should hire its own police and pay them from the tolls taken for use of the road. But this is not the way it is...hence the triple dipping.