Personality Disorders and Politics - 101

[spacehabitats]

I have been meaning to bring this up for awhile since it does seem terribly relevant to a lot of what is going on in politics in general and in our little movement in particular.

Have you ever noticed how there are some people who just seem to leave a trail of havoc behind them wherever they go?
They can walk into a party where everyone is having a good time and 30 minutes later there are three simultaneous arguments, a fist fight out back, and one pending divorce?
This is not an accident. This is not bad luck. This is not coincidence.
This is a personality disorder.

Years ago when the psychiatrists started to try to bring some semblance of order to their specialty, they compiled a book of diagnostic criteria for different psychiatric conditions and called it the DSM, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. The result was modern psychiatry.

One of the things they noticed was that there were groups of people who weren't really mentally ill, but that displayed recurring patterns or clusters of personality traits. They would often be involved in highly emotional or dysfunctional situations. Interestingly, THEY did not seek psychiatric care, but their friends and families DID.

One of my mentors in residency put it this way, "People with personality disorders aren't crazy, they just make everyone around them crazy."
They don't seek treatment because they are very happy with who they are. Their personal lives may be a shamble, but they don't want to change, they want everyone else to change.

So what does this have to do with Ron Paul? Well, I am happy to report that it does not have anything at all to do with the good doctor. He seems to be one of the sanest politicians I have ever observed.

I cannot say the same about everyone else in politics.
Lets take the Antisocial Personality Disorder, for example.
This is the person commonly referred to as the "sociopath".

Diagnostic criteria

Three or more of the following are required:
Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honour financial obligations
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.(emphasis mine)

Does this remind you of anyone?
Maybe a politician who had a history of an improper relationship with a female lobbyist?
Someone who is breaking a campaign finance law that he co-sponsored?
Someone who is notorious for having an explosive temper and throwing out inflammatory epithets?
Someone who can be caught repeatedly in bold-faced lies during an interview on national TV, smile, and go on without missing a beat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y395Tftgz0E
Someone who has been accused of collaborating with his captors at the expense of his fellow POW's, and yet has made a career out of being a "war hero"?

Can't think of anyone yet?
You're not trying.

Seriously, what we need to remember is that sociopaths are not like us. Polygraphers hate them. They can lie extemporaneously and convincingly without feeling even a twinge of guilt or remorse. They make wonderful used car salesmen, televangelists, counterintelligence agents, personal injury lawyers, and, yes, politicians.

The reason that your Aunt Mabel thinks that John McCain (or Bill Clinton or Bush or Obama:eek:?) is such a wonderful guy is that she is not equipped emotionally to deal with a person like this. She is a sucker for the Big Lie. She looks for non-verbal cues that will usually be reliable indicators that someone is being deceitful, and all she sees is unblinking warmth and sincerity.

These are the 9th degree black belts of Deception.
She doesn't stand a chance.
And neither does our nation unless we can get people to look past the smiling face and warm handshake.

Well, I have several more personality disorders that are particular favorites of mine, but I have to get ready for work. I'll post some more and we can discuss them later.

Or you can go to Wikipedia and find some examples for yourself. Come on, its fun to play amateur psychiatrist!

(odd or eccentric disorders)
Paranoid personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder)
Schizoid personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)
Schizotypal personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder)Cluster B (dramatic, emotional, or erratic disorders)
Antisocial personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)
Borderline personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder)
Histrionic personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder)
Narcissistic personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)
Avoidant personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder)
Dependent personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder) (not the same as Dysthymia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia))
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_personality_disorder)In the meantime, your homework is to think of more examples of sociopathic traits and their impact on the movement.
Have fun.:)

[rancher89]

quote:
Seriously, what we need to remember is that sociopaths are not like us. Polygraphers hate them. They can lie extemporaneously and convincingly without feeling even a twinge of guilt or remorse. They make wonderful used car salesmen, televangelists, counterintelligence agents, personal injury lawyers, and, yes, politicians. unquote

and actors. I've always wondered about actors and why they become actors. No disrespect to actors in general, I've enjoyed many good theater productions, movies etc. and certainly don't want them to go away. But the desire, indeed the need to "be" someone else ...... I've also questioned their desire to thrust themselves into politics either as as dabblers or sometimes as candidates.

Just a layman's view of course, my dad had his master's in psyc, I've taken all the tests....had all the lessons I care for....

[amy31416]

I have more experience with the sociopathic type than I'd like to admit. Just suffice it to say--the destruction that they wreak is profound.

They can be funny, sociable, charming and are usually quite intelligent, but they fail to recognize the humanity in other people. There's a basic inability to empathize. Thus, you, and all others are viewed as a means to an end.

Don't waste your time feeling sympathy for these types--they would never return the favor in kind. My observation is that the only emotion they really feel is rage, and get out of the way if they're in that mode. It's not pretty, and can often be violent.

So, yeah, McCain sucks in a more profound way than most people can comprehend.

[rancher89]

And my experience has, unfortunately, been with schizophrenics. Had a cousin who ended up suiciding, his whole family had problems, will always. Known people off and on through out my life that were either borderline or full fledged. My ex (and you'd think with previous experience I'd of sniffed it out b4 getting married to him....) is one, his mother is certifiable.

[spacehabitats]

Someone with NO guilt, with their finger on THE button.
Yes it is scary.

One of the reasons people can't accept theories like a global conspiracy is that they do not comprehend the sociopathic mind.

[Truth Warrior]

Politics IS a personality disorder.<IMHO>

"We shall get nowhere until we start by recognizing that political behavior is largely non-rational, that the world is suffering from some kind of mental disease which must be diagnosed before it can be cured. " -- George Orwell

[acptulsa]

Very strange how appealing confidence is in general. No wonder sociopaths do so well getting elected. Scary.

And yes, that is John McCain.

[Truth Warrior]

Very strange how appealing confidence is in general. No wonder sociopaths do so well getting elected. Scary.

And yes, that is John McCain.

AND the Clintons, AND the Bushs. :D

[amy31416]

Very strange how appealing confidence is in general. No wonder sociopaths do so well getting elected. Scary.

And yes, that is John McCain.

If you're not capable of introspection, then you will never doubt yourself, nor will you ever truly regret things. You also won't be thoughtful about another person's existence, and will never value it as you value your own. Don't mistake chutzpah for a severely flawed personality disorder, it's an easy mistake to make.

It is truly disturbing that these people exist, but they do. I'm no psychologist, so I don't even pretend to try to understand it, but it is helpful to be able to recognize it.

McCain is a very damaged individual, but my sympathy ends right there. He's a dangerous guy and numerous people have recognized that.

[InPaulWeTrust]

The whole post reminds me of what is theorized in the book Political Ponerology. In how 4% of the world's population can be characterized as sociopaths and characteropaths who work their way to the top to conquer places of high esteem such as political status. A group of them form a pathocracy etc...

Interesting read. I recommend it. Very dense information, but not backed with much evidence, really mainly theorized by the author who claims to have suffered through the beginnings of world war II and how he first experienced this sort of change when the Nazi Party came to power in Germany.

[spacehabitats]

I have more experience with the sociopathic type than I'd like to admit. Just suffice it to say--the destruction that they wreak is profound.

They can be funny, sociable, charming and are usually quite intelligent, but they fail to recognize the humanity in other people. There's a basic inability to empathize. Thus, you, and all others are viewed as a means to an end.

Don't waste your time feeling sympathy for these types--they would never return the favor in kind. My observation is that the only emotion they really feel is rage, and get out of the way if they're in that mode. It's not pretty, and can often be violent.

So, yeah, McCain sucks in a more profound way than most people can comprehend.

A+

[amy31416]

The whole post reminds me of what is theorized in the book Political Ponerology. In how 4% of the world's population can be characterized as sociopaths and characteropaths who work their way to the top to conquer places of high esteem such as political status. A group of them form a pathocracy etc...

Interesting read. I recommend it. Very dense information, but not backed with much evidence, really mainly theorized by the author who claims to have suffered through the beginnings of world war II and how he first experienced this sort of change when the Nazi Party came to power in Germany.

I'll check it out, it seems rather interesting.

Does anyone have any theories on how sociopaths are created? Is it genetic? Environmental? Does something atrocious have to happen to them? Can it be reversed or is there any therapy that can help them?

Any psych people reading this?

[Bradley in DC]

Didn't this come up in another thread? ;)

[constituent]

I'll check it out, it seems rather interesting.

Does anyone have any theories on how sociopaths are created? Is it genetic? Environmental? Does something atrocious have to happen to them? Can it be reversed or is there any therapy that can help them?

Any psych people reading this?

i don't think anything "psych" is that simple. it's more like susceptibility to a spectrum of different things on different levels... a compounding of sorts. hit or miss.

[acptulsa]

I believe the consensus is it's genetic. Something is missing from these people, whether they miss it or not. However, there is debate on the topic, with some scholars believing something is missing from their upbringing. I'm with the former. I have known people who have some of the symptoms as a result of abuse in childhood, but there is a difference. In my opinion the self-awareness and empathy are damaged, not missing, in these cases. Either is sad enough.

Sometimes I get the impression that George H.W. Bush is one of the former and that Dubya has some of the latter.

But who knows? The human mind is a mysterious place, and calling Psychology a science is really an insult to scientists--or, perhaps more justly, an insult to the elegant simplicity of the physical world. Nothing of clinical simplicity about us.

[Truth Warrior]

“And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.” -- Lord Acton

[Truth Warrior]

The Sociopathic Cult by Butler Shaffer
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/ebook/96.html

[Deborah K]

I have been meaning to bring this up for awhile since it does seem terribly relevant to a lot of what is going on in politics in general and in our little movement in particular.

Have you ever noticed how there are some people who just seem to leave a trail of havoc behind them wherever they go?
They can walk into a party where everyone is having a good time and 30 minutes later there are three simultaneous arguments, a fist fight out back, and one pending divorce?
This is not an accident. This is not bad luck. This is not coincidence.
This is a personality disorder.

Years ago when the psychiatrists started to try to bring some semblance of order to their specialty, they compiled a book of diagnostic criteria for different psychiatric conditions and called it the DSM, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. The result was modern psychiatry.

One of the things they noticed was that there were groups of people who weren't really mentally ill, but that displayed recurring patterns or clusters of personality traits. They would often be involved in highly emotional or dysfunctional situations. Interestingly, THEY did not seek psychiatric care, but their friends and families DID.

One of my mentors in residency put it this way, "People with personality disorders aren't crazy, they just make everyone around them crazy."
They don't seek treatment because they are very happy with who they are. Their personal lives may be a shamble, but they don't want to change, they want everyone else to change.

So what does this have to do with Ron Paul? Well, I am happy to report that it does not have anything at all to do with the good doctor. He seems to be one of the sanest politicians I have ever observed.

I cannot say the same about everyone else in politics.
Lets take the Antisocial Personality Disorder, for example.
This is the person commonly referred to as the "sociopath".

Diagnostic criteria

Three or more of the following are required:
Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honour financial obligations
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.(emphasis mine)

Does this remind you of anyone?
Maybe a politician who had a history of an improper relationship with a female lobbyist?
Someone who is breaking a campaign finance law that he co-sponsored?
Someone who is notorious for having an explosive temper and throwing out inflammatory epithets?
Someone who can be caught repeatedly in bold-faced lies during an interview on national TV, smile, and go on without missing a beat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y395Tftgz0E
Someone who has been accused of collaborating with his captors at the expense of his fellow POW's, and yet has made a career out of being a "war hero"?

Can't think of anyone yet?
You're not trying.

Seriously, what we need to remember is that sociopaths are not like us. Polygraphers hate them. They can lie extemporaneously and convincingly without feeling even a twinge of guilt or remorse. They make wonderful used car salesmen, televangelists, counterintelligence agents, personal injury lawyers, and, yes, politicians.

The reason that your Aunt Mabel thinks that John McCain (or Bill Clinton or Bush or Obama:eek:?) is such a wonderful guy is that she is not equipped emotionally to deal with a person like this. She is a sucker for the Big Lie. She looks for non-verbal cues that will usually be reliable indicators that someone is being deceitful, and all she sees is unblinking warmth and sincerity.

These are the 9th degree black belts of Deception.
She doesn't stand a chance.
And neither does our nation unless we can get people to look past the smiling face and warm handshake.

Well, I have several more personality disorders that are particular favorites of mine, but I have to get ready for work. I'll post some more and we can discuss them later.

Or you can go to Wikipedia and find some examples for yourself. Come on, its fun to play amateur psychiatrist!

(odd or eccentric disorders)
Paranoid personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder)
Schizoid personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder)
Schizotypal personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder)Cluster B (dramatic, emotional, or erratic disorders)
Antisocial personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder)
Borderline personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder)
Histrionic personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder)
Narcissistic personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)Cluster C (anxious or fearful disorders)
Avoidant personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder)
Dependent personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder) (not the same as Dysthymia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia))
Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_personality_disorder)In the meantime, your homework is to think of more examples of sociopathic traits and their impact on the movement.
Have fun.:)

Nicely done! As someone with a degree in Behavioral Science and a minor in addictive disorders, I would say you hit the nail!

[acptulsa]

All right. I was saving this for his thread in the Oklahoma subforum, but now I have to give y'all a preview:

"A politician is just like a spoiled kid. If he feels that his stick of candy is not the longest why he will let out a yap that will drown out the neighborhood."--Will Rogers 1930

[Truth Warrior]

All right. I was saving this for his thread in the Oklahoma subforum, but now I have to give y'all a preview:

"A politician is just like a spoiled kid. If he feels that his stick of candy is not the longest why he will let out a yap that will drown out the neighborhood."--Will Rogers 1930

For some strange reason I just had a flashback to a middle school boy's gym locker room. :D

[Banana]

Out of curiosity; should this be a good basis for requiring that anyone who will want to run for the office take a psychology test?

I'd not support it anyway simply because the tables can be turned around and we'd end up with insane people administering the tests and giving good marks to insane people while keeping out the sane people.

[Truth Warrior]

"Normal is the average insanity of mass." -- R.D. Laing :D

[Sandra]

Is it a sociopath's problem or those that are follow him/her? If we have knowledge of a politician's sociopathy and proof comes out that a politician may have that problem, why do others continually believe him/her? It makes the followers the vicious mob that can't be convinced otherwise.

[Truth Warrior]

"Many people never grow up. They stay all their lives with a passionate need for external authority and guidance, pretending not to trust their own judgment." -- Alan Watts

[spacehabitats]

Didn't this come up in another thread? ;)

You're thinking of the narcissistic personality disorder. I think John has some of that too. (Most politicians do.)
I think they need a little of that to give them the drive to succeed.
But you're making me get ahead of myself.

I will either add that later or start a "Personality Disorder in Politics - 102" thread for that very important topic.:D

[amy31416]

You're thinking of the narcissistic personality disorder. I think John has some of that too. (Most politicians do.)
I think they need a little of that to give them the drive to succeed.
But you're making me get ahead of myself.

I will either add that later or start a "Personality Disorder in Politics - 102" thread for that very important topic.:D

I'd say that the two (narcissistic and sociopathic) often go hand-in-hand, am I correct on that?

[mdh]

Well, I definitly think that people can overcome any "issue" with simple logic. Logic is all that's required to be... perfect. Insanity is when we defy what we know to be logical.

[Banana]

A question regarding personality disorder.


I've been skeptical of concepts such as personality disorders, Attention Deficit Disorders and other similar disorders on the ground that it seems to be just about true of anyone, just not at all time, and therefore would be a matter of a degree and could be simply just who they are.

Where does one draws the line? How is this not manufactured?

[Truth Warrior]

"The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most easily adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron". -- H. L. Mencken (Baltimore Evening Sun, 26 July 1920):

[Sandra]

A question regarding personality disorder.


I've been skeptical of concepts such as personality disorders, Attention Deficit Disorders and other similar disorders on the ground that it seems to be just about true of anyone, just not at all time, and therefore would be a matter of a degree and could be simply just who they are.

Where does one draws the line? How is this not manufactured?

+1

[spacehabitats]

I don't know where to begin.
I think you all have brought up excellent points, books, and/or quotes (including the candy stick reference. You all get A+ for the course so far.:)

One thing I should have mentioned is that, yes, this is NOT an exact science.
Nothing in medicine is, but especially psychiatry.

All of us have some of the traits listed under the personality disorders. Heck, who doesn't sometimes break the speed limit, tell a little self-serving lie, lose our cool and snap at the wife or kids. (Except for ME, of course.:rolleyes:)

That does not mean we are antisocial personalities. It means we are human.

I guess you could dispense with all the medical jargon and just say so-and-so is a "crooked, lying, jerk", but there is some value in recognizing these disorders.
For one thing, in the case of the sociopath, realizing that they gravitate toward certain professions should raise your index of suspicion when you see some of these traits in an otherwise normal appearing person who just happens to be a used car salesman or politician. You may be dealing with the tip of the iceberg, and you do NOT want to buy a used car from this man.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a good personal injury or malpractice attorney, it doesn't matter because they are ALL sociopaths.;)

[spacehabitats]

I'd say that the two (narcissistic and sociopathic) often go hand-in-hand, am I correct on that?

You are correct.
Although you may theoretically have any combination of any of these traits and/or disorders they tend to cluster into certain groups. (e.g. narcissistic and sociopathic are found under cluster B) and more frequently overlap or coincide in a given patient.

[Kludge]

I thought this was going to be about George for a while.... (Don't tell him I said this)

[acptulsa]

I thought this was going to be about George for a while.... (Don't tell him I said this)

If you're talking about Dubya, it is--and he already knows. Otherwise, he probably already knows too.

[Carole]

Nearly all politicians fit into one or more sociopathic category.

[Truth Warrior]

The whole post reminds me of what is theorized in the book Political Ponerology. In how 4% of the world's population can be characterized as sociopaths and characteropaths who work their way to the top to conquer places of high esteem such as political status. A group of them form a pathocracy etc...

Interesting read. I recommend it. Very dense information, but not backed with much evidence, really mainly theorized by the author who claims to have suffered through the beginnings of world war II and how he first experienced this sort of change when the Nazi Party came to power in Germany.

http://ponerology.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Ponerology-Science-Adjusted-Purposes/dp/1897244258

[amy31416]

I guess you could dispense with all the medical jargon and just say so-and-so is a "crooked, lying, jerk", but there is some value in recognizing these disorders.
For one thing, in the case of the sociopath, realizing that they gravitate toward certain professions should raise your index of suspicion when you see some of these traits in an otherwise normal appearing person who just happens to be a used car salesman or politician. You may be dealing with the tip of the iceberg, and you do NOT want to buy a used car from this man.

On the other hand, if you're looking for a good personal injury or malpractice attorney, it doesn't matter because they are ALL sociopaths.;)

You have hit the nail on the head. I have an ex who I had every single "symptom" on your list. I knew absolutely nothing about sociopathy until I started reading up on behavioral disorders and when I came to the sections on antisocial personality and narcissistic personality, I was pretty much floored. I guess I thought those people only existed in fiction.

I felt pretty stupid for a long time because he lied to me about everything, even his profession. He said he was an architect--and had the artistic skills to back it up, but in reality, he was a disbarred attorney. And I found him out relatively quickly, but woah, what a glib mofo.

Ironically, he is now selling used cars and he called me up last night and was ever so sweet to me and was telling me how hard he was working, that he's in therapy and how broke he is. Then he asked me to borrow $40. He emailed me pictures of his son, and one of the cars he's working on (he knows I have a soft spot for kids and I dig cars). I said, the answer is "simply no." And he hung up on me. It's actually funny now, but the guy is a classic case. His dad is a big-time criminal law attorney, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. At this point, I'm just curious about what causes it, but like acptulsa said, it might just be genetic.

[rancher89]

I believe the consensus is it's genetic. Something is missing from these people, whether they miss it or not. However, there is debate on the topic, with some scholars believing something is missing from their upbringing. I'm with the former. I have known people who have some of the symptoms as a result of abuse in childhood, but there is a difference. In my opinion the self-awareness and empathy are damaged, not missing, in these cases. Either is sad enough.

Sometimes I get the impression that George H.W. Bush is one of the former and that Dubya has some of the latter.

But who knows? The human mind is a mysterious place, and calling Psychology a science is really an insult to scientists--or, perhaps more justly, an insult to the elegant simplicity of the physical world. Nothing of clinical simplicity about us.


Well said, schitzy behavior is also genetic IMHO

[Carole]

That perfectly describes Mrs. Clinton, as well as her husband, except his rage is more under control. They are both sociopaths in different ways.

McInSane also, of course.

Politicians in general have no soul. :)

[humanic]

This is an excellent and very important thread.


The whole post reminds me of what is theorized in the book Political Ponerology.

http://ponerology.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Political-Ponerology-Science-Adjusted-Purposes/dp/1897244258

I am actually reading this book right now. It was rather expensive though: $33 + shipping.

You can download the first 40 pages or so in PDF form here:
http://www.qfgpublishing.com/downloads/Ponerology_final-sample.pdf

Here is a quote from the Editor's Preface (a quote of a quote, actually):


Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fool. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that con-science is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless.

You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they sel-dom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world.

You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.

....

Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the population...

[humanic]

[Edited out quote by Truth Warrior about Alan Watts -- different guy!]

Alan Watt is an excellent historian who is well-versed in the role sociopaths/psychopaths play in politics and society, and sometimes even references "Political Ponerology". I highly recommend visiting his site http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, where you can download free episodes of his radio show and/or transcripts.

Here's a quote:

CALLER: I've just got one comment I would to make of what you were speaking about. Since individuality is like the single biggest threat to the system, do these psychopaths fear that we are becoming individuals again will connect us to our spiritual self and it's like they really want to stop us from making that connection?

ALAN: Strangely enough, even the harden psychologists that try and go into this ponerology I was talking about, even they go into that because you can't help but being human trying to figure out what is it that’s so different from you. How are they so different? And you go into all the aspects including the soullessness. At one time they were called "soul eaters" because they tend to drain people around them. You don't know why you get drained and tired when you’re around them, but you do. They suck energy from you in a sense. It's because your brain is racing trying to keep up with the strange mentality that they have and some of the things they come out with. Your brain begins to race and you feel tired. You're quite right and they do have MOs. They have no conscience; and in this book "[Political] Ponerology" they do go through the histories of the present bunch in the U.S.

[Roxi]

You guys are ALL going to gitmo!.... make that DOUBLE GITMO :D

no really though McLame is totally cybil.... i have heard of certain activists from the POW/MIA generation who can just walk within eyesite of him and his face turns red and he gets super pissed... I honestly believe if they would have just followed him around the whole campaign he would have had to drop out long ago...

[Truth Warrior]

Alan Watt is an excellent historian who is well-versed in the role sociopaths/psychopaths play in politics and society, and sometimes even references "Political Ponerology". I highly recommend visiting his site http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com, where you can download free episodes of his radio show and/or transcripts.

Here's a quote:

Different guy. Interesting name coincidence. They even kinda look alike.<IMHO>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts

Thanks! :)

[Sandra]

I think McCain will end up wrangling a reporter before the general election.

[raiha]

I guess you've seen "The Corporation"

www.thecorporation.com

Corporation as psychopath according to the DSM 1V
I suspect McCain has Narcissistic PD and acquired PTSD with it's attendant rage. His language is interesting..."unleashing compassion and generosity." These qualities generally have a universal application. Selective compassion is a contradiction in terms. You can't go to war for 100 years and unleash compassion. Its ridiculous.

[humanic]

Different guy. Interesting name coincidence. They even kinda look alike.<IMHO>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts

Thanks! :)

Oh wow... weird. :) They seem to think similarly as well.

[Sandra]

Oh wow... weird. :) They seem to think similarly as well.


Separated at birth?

[angelatc]

I have been meaning to bring this up for awhile since it does seem terribly relevant to a lot of what is going on in politics in general and in our little movement in particular.


What does your book say about diagnosing people you've never met?

[rancher89]

Isn't there a branch of psyc that studies people in history?

[Sandra]

What does your book say about diagnosing people you've never met?

Also spacehabitat, are your mile long troll posts a bit of self diagnosis? Aren't you an osteo guy?

[forsmant]

I am skeptical of the whole psychology field. It seems that they just added the word disorder to every negative emotion a human can experience. I don't understand how they get their credibility from defining extreme emotions as being a disorder.

I don't really know too much about the field and only slightly interested enough to find out.

[Rhys]

McCain never won the war... he never defeated anyone. Instead, he was tortured until they said it was ok to leave. He didn't escape and probably couldn't fight back. He gave in and made radio broadcasts without much fight too. He unknowingly will never be beat or mistreated again without a victory. He will always want to win out in the end.

His daddy never loved him enough either because he was always in the military. He learned to love the Military because that's how he could get love from daddy.

Now, he can win a war for daddy, and not let the terrorists win the way the north vietnamese won against him.

I'm not a shrink, but I am a marketer. lol That's my diagnosis.

[Sandra]

McCain never won the war... he never defeated anyone. Instead, he was tortured until they said it was ok to leave. He didn't escape and probably couldn't fight back. He gave in and made radio broadcasts without much fight too. He unknowingly will never be beat or mistreated again without a victory. He will always want to win out in the end.

His daddy never loved him enough either because he was always in the military. He learned to love the Military because that's how he could get love from daddy.

Now, he can win a war for daddy, and not let the terrorists win the way the north vietnamese won against him.

I'm not a shrink, but I am a marketer. lol That's my diagnosis.

Don't forget he could be the biggest baddest dictator in the world! :D

[spacehabitats]

Also spacehabitat, are your mile long troll posts a bit of self diagnosis? Aren't you an osteo guy?

No, my mile long troll posts are part of your final exam.

You will have to identify what MY PERSONALITY DISORDER IS.

But you have to wait until after PD 103 to give all of the other students a chance.
Unless you want to PM me.;)

Oh and if you're curious about what an osteopathic physician is you will want to check at my latest mile long troll post at
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=131921&page=39

I try to explain what a "glorified massage therapist" is in terms that even Dr. Steve could understand.

[spacehabitats]

What does your book say about diagnosing people you've never met?


It says it can't be done.

Your secret is safe with me.;)

[spacehabitats]

You have hit the nail on the head. I have an ex who I had every single "symptom" on your list. I knew absolutely nothing about sociopathy until I started reading up on behavioral disorders and when I came to the sections on antisocial personality and narcissistic personality, I was pretty much floored. I guess I thought those people only existed in fiction.

I felt pretty stupid for a long time because he lied to me about everything, even his profession. He said he was an architect--and had the artistic skills to back it up, but in reality, he was a disbarred attorney. And I found him out relatively quickly, but woah, what a glib mofo.

Ironically, he is now selling used cars and he called me up last night and was ever so sweet to me and was telling me how hard he was working, that he's in therapy and how broke he is. Then he asked me to borrow $40. He emailed me pictures of his son, and one of the cars he's working on (he knows I have a soft spot for kids and I dig cars). I said, the answer is "simply no." And he hung up on me. It's actually funny now, but the guy is a classic case. His dad is a big-time criminal law attorney, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. At this point, I'm just curious about what causes it, but like acptulsa said, it might just be genetic.


You have my deepest sympathy.
I had a roommate like that once and that was bad enough.:(

BTW, like everything else I am 100% sure that it is both genetic and environmental.

To tease out the relative contributions, you would have to look at the identical twins who were separated at birth.

[spacehabitats]

Out of curiosity; should this be a good basis for requiring that anyone who will want to run for the office take a psychology test?

I'd not support it anyway simply because the tables can be turned around and we'd end up with insane people administering the tests and giving good marks to insane people while keeping out the sane people.

But you're right, then they would find a way to screw the test up.:(

[amy31416]

You have my deepest sympathy.
I had a roommate like that once and that was bad enough.:(

BTW, like everything else I am 100% sure that it is both genetic and environmental.

To tease out the relative contributions, you would have to look at the identical twins who were separated at birth.

Thanks man. I've sworn off men since I dumped his ass, and it'll be a while before I get it out of my system--I wouldn't want to be one of those types who misplaces anger on the wrong person.

Yeah, there's probably more than one cause. I'd like to be able to warn other people about him, but I'll just come off as a "woman scorned." I'd also like to tell his son's mother that he's teaching his son how to steal--that was one of the most atrocious things I found out about him. Eccch. His son doesn't have the sociopathic tendencies, fortunately, he's actually a sweet, loving kid. But, heh, the kid doesn't look at all like him and he did mention that his ex had cheated, so.....

It'd be interesting to see the identical twins thing, I like those types of studies.

[Sandra]

You know you could lose your license giving your professional opinion in an area you cannot claim expertise to. You have a general knowledge that any college student would have even if not in Med school.

If you want to post your opinion that's fine but without the "MD" labeling of superior knowledge unrelated to psychiatry. In previous posts you state that your MD status qualifies the diagnosis.

[Rhys]

No, my mile long troll posts are part of your final exam.

You will have to identify what MY PERSONALITY DISORDER IS.

But you have to wait until after PD 103 to give all of the other students a chance.
Unless you want to PM me.;)

Oh and if you're curious about what an osteopathic physician is you will want to check at my latest mile long troll post at
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=131921&page=39

I try to explain what a "glorified massage therapist" is in terms that even Dr. Steve could understand.

inflated ego

me too though heh

[OferNave]

I thought it was well understood by the non-naive that sociopathy is a prerequisite for attaining high office in modern America.

[Truth Warrior]

I figured out several decades ago that each candidate running is usually right about the other candidate. He/she shouldn't be elected nor hold any public office. :D

[Truth Warrior]

IF the 4% estimate is accurate there's only about 260,000,000 sociopaths out there in the world.

Cheery thought for the day. :)

[Truth Warrior]

So, hypothetically, if you have two major party slick sociopaths running for public office how do the sane choose the "lesser of two evils"?

[acptulsa]

IF the 4% estimate is accurate there's only about 260,000,000 sociopaths out there in the world.

Cheery thought for the day. :)

See, even if we fill the halls of government with them we won't be keeping them all off the streets. So don't try!

[Truth Warrior]

See, even if we fill the halls of government with them we won't be keeping them all off the streets. So don't try!
The good news is that around 6.25 billion of us world folks aren't sociopaths. :D

Thanks!

[spacehabitats]

But for some reason I felt that this was once again terribly relevant to our movement.

Maybe it was this thread that reminded me of why we need to be cautious about the people we embrace as "leaders" of our movement.

[spacehabitats]

See this excellent article:

The Trick of the Psychopath's Trade: Make Us Believe that Evil Comes from Others (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/148141-The-Trick-of-the-Psychopath-s-Trade-Make-Us-Believe-that-Evil-Comes-from-Others)