Mike Gravel has a book out

[rossl]

If you're curious about Mike Gravel (or why he joined the Libertarian Party), want to learn more about him, don't know anything about him, like his ideas, think he's a good candidate, hate him, or don't even know who he is - this book is for you! So everyone can order a copy (they're very cheap, not too long, very informative and thoughtful, they changed my views on a couple of issues) at www.citizen-power.us.

It's also a great way to become informed about the United Nations, US government, and most of all the National Initiative for Democracy.

[porcupine]

I'm not particularly interested in learning anything more about this guy. He supports Real ID, supports socialist healthcare and wants national registration of guns. He doesn't even know what a libertarian is.

[Patriot123]

Been a follower and supporter of Senator Gravel for some time. Even had the honor of meeting him. Definitely will buy the book.

[G-Wohl]

For the record, I've never seen evidence that he supports the Real ID card. He's not that kind of socialist.

It seems like the last couple of threads you've posted, rossl, have been all about Mike Gravel. Who's side are you on, exactly?

I like Gravel a lot, but this is a Ron Paul forum, man.

[porcupine]

For the record, I've never seen evidence that he supports the Real ID card. He's not that kind of socialist.


Well, then you haven't looked into him too much. Gravel does support the Real ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbSh-3G3HJU

I don't know where this myth about Gravel being pro-liberty comes from. It's idiotic.

[rossl]

"If people don't want the ID, they don't have to take it" - sounds pretty libertarian to me.

But Mike Gravel's stances on specific issues are the second most important part of his campaign. The first is the National Initiative. If you don't understand that, then you can't understand Mike Gravel or how he is pro-liberty.

How about broadening your mind, porcupine, instead of closing it to someone with new ideas?

[ARealConservative]

"If people don't want the ID, they don't have to take it" - sounds pretty libertarian to me.

But Mike Gravel's stances on specific issues are the second most important part of his campaign. The first is the National Initiative. If you don't understand that, then you can't understand Mike Gravel or how he is pro-liberty.

How about broadening your mind, porcupine, instead of closing it to someone with new ideas?

the id is required to bank, work, or move freely in public..........

[porcupine]

the id is required to bank, work, or move freely in public..........

Exactly. That's just more politician-talk. Is the gun registration or taxes to pay for the government healthcare optional too?

[G-Wohl]

"If people don't want the ID, they don't have to take it" - sounds pretty libertarian to me.

But Mike Gravel's stances on specific issues are the second most important part of his campaign. The first is the National Initiative. If you don't understand that, then you can't understand Mike Gravel or how he is pro-liberty.

How about broadening your mind, porcupine, instead of closing it to someone with new ideas?

Don't you think it's kind of weird that every single post you've ever made on this forum has been related to Mike Gravel?

Rossl, as much as I like Mike Gravel, his views regarding the ID are NOT libertarian - a libertarian would never approve of ANYONE having a government-controlled identification system like the Real ID.

[rossl]

I'm a Gravel fan trying to promote Gravel. So kill me for it.

But Gravel is a Libertarian, and Gravel doesn't "do" politician speak. He's a real human, he doesn't have advisers, he voices his opinions.

Look, do you understand the National Initiative? If not, you don't understand Mike Gravel, or why he is Libertarian.

[G-Wohl]

I'm a Gravel fan trying to promote Gravel. So kill me for it.

But Gravel is a Libertarian, and Gravel doesn't "do" politician speak. He's a real human, he doesn't have advisers, he voices his opinions.

Look, do you understand the National Initiative? If not, you don't understand Mike Gravel, or why he is Libertarian.

This is a Ron Paul forum.

Gravel is a Libertarian - capitol L. Only SOME of his views are libertarian - lowercase l.

I didn't say anything about the National Initiative, so I'm not sure why you brought it up. But yes, I've done a lot of reading about Mike Gravel's platform and I bought his book - I don't happen to believe that the people would have any more initiative to vote and change things if they were given the power to. I think that the problem is that our politicians take advantage of peoples' ignorance and ignore our rule of law. Peoples' ignorance will not be done away with just by making them a separate branch of government with its own law-making powers. Think of the bureaucracy that will be involved with this; federal government oversight of these new rules; huge amendments to our Constitution; gigantic opportunities for cheating/corruption/scandals/etc. It's asking for trouble.

[crazyfingers]

The national initiative is the worst idea I've ever heard. It is completely incompatible with libertarianism and the struggle to RESTORE THE REPUBLIC.

WTH happened to the Libertarian Party? I joined briefly years ago, and I remember having to sign a non-agression pledge. I'm assuming they got rid of it if people like Gravel are now joining up.

[amy31416]

I'm a Gravel fan trying to promote Gravel..

Props for honesty.

I like a few of his stances, but he really comes off as a tall drink of crazy to be quite blunt.

[TurtleBurger]

Wouldn't the National Initiative just put more power into the hands of Fox News? This year's primary elections, from the point of view of Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and Mike Gravel supporters, should show clearly why the American people are not ready for that kind of power. Ultimately, the majority of people would just vote however the talking heads told them to.

[rossl]

Look at it this way - the American public is currently in civic childhood. They don't really have that much responsibility, so they care about little other than themselves. But if they were given some responsibility, they could move into civic adulthood. That is what growing up is - being given more responsibility.

The National Initiative is basically Gravel's entire platform. That's why I brought it up.

And this section is dedicated to "Gravel, Kucinich, Edwards fans".

[revolutionary8]

rossl,
I like Gravel. I think he is a patriot who helped end the draft and has been sucessfull all of this time not selling out to lobbyists and big business. As Ron Paul has mentioned, this is very difficult to do.
He has done a marvelous job of telling it like it is when it comes to The Democratic Candidates. I think the crazy neoliberals shun him and Kucinich and anyone they hate, I likey. lol.
Truth be told the Democrats IMO, are the new socialist greens and the big L Libertarians are the new Democrats. lmao.
I am a Republican all the f'in way and do not agree with many of his issues, but I try to judge on character more than on the Real ID.
I can understand why some hairs are up here about the Real ID and open borders, but hell some of the Libertarians want open borders too.

I would like to add that I think one of our biggest weaknesses in the Ron Paul camp is that we are sooooo staunch in our own beliefs and ideas, we tend to shun even true patriots like Kucinich and Gravel, simply because their philosophical beliefs differ from ours.
I applauded RP when he worked with Kucinich and I applauded Gravel when he complimented RP and said he would like to work with him.
These kinds of characters need to join forces, rather than the Fabian Socialists and the Warmongering Nazis pretending to bicker over how they will divide and conquer the world.
:D
My best to you in your endeavor.
Go Mike Go.
:)

[revolutionary8]

Props for honesty.

I like a few of his stances, but he really comes off as a tall drink of crazy to be quite blunt.
this sounds just like what "they" say about Ron Paul and our legions. lol
It should have been the crazies vs. the crazies- Ron Paul vs. Gravel or Kucinich in the General, but of course that was not anointed to be.
:D

[revolutionary8]

The national initiative is the worst idea I've ever heard. It is completely incompatible with libertarianism and the struggle to RESTORE THE REPUBLIC.

WTH happened to the Libertarian Party? I joined briefly years ago, and I remember having to sign a non-agression pledge. I'm assuming they got rid of it if people like Gravel are now joining up.
This is silly, the Libertarian party platform is pretty socialist IMO.
-open borders, pro-abortion, pro unrestricted free trade, undecided on drugs, undecided on amnesty.
And Bob Barr voted for the Patriot Act and War. Did Gravel?
I don't know if he did or not, maybe rossl will know.

[mdh]

Props for honesty.

I like a few of his stances, but he really comes off as a tall drink of crazy to be quite blunt.

So do Ron Paul supporters, to an awful lot of folks... ;)

As far as TNI goes, here's my take. I just posted this on another thread regarding Gravel, too...



A republican system of governance is not inherently libertarian, nor is a direct democratic system inherently un-libertarian. The most libertarian form of government would be none at all, I believe. The fact is that representative republican government can be either libertarian in nature or not. I think the way things are today is very un-libertarian however, and in the past states with a referendum process have proven that such direct democracy can in fact be a successful avenue for pro-liberty values. A great example of this is medical marijuana in California, which the people passed against the will of the political elites in their state and the federal government. That seems like a victory for liberty to me, and one that the people of California never would have gotten via their elected representatives.

[mdh]

This is silly, the Libertarian party platform is pretty socialist IMO.
-open borders, pro-abortion, pro unrestricted free trade, undecided on drugs, undecided on amnesty.
And Bob Barr voted for the Patriot Act and War. Did Gravel?
I don't know if he did or not, maybe rossl will know.

Unrestricted free trade and open borders aren't socialist (and most libertarians see getting rid of oft-abused socialist welfare programs as a pre-requisite to opening the borders.)

The Libertarian party is *not* pro-abortion, though. In all honesty, I'd say it's split right down the middle on abortion, though none of us want to see federal legislation on the matter and the majority of us feel that Roe v Wade was a bad thing that overstepped the bounds of federal power, and we'd like to see it left to the states (which is Ron Paul's position, too.)

[revolutionary8]

Unrestricted free trade and open borders aren't socialist (and most libertarians see getting rid of oft-abused socialist welfare programs as a pre-requisite to opening the borders.)

The Libertarian party is *not* pro-abortion, though. In all honesty, I'd say it's split right down the middle on abortion, though none of us want to see federal legislation on the matter and the majority of us feel that Roe v Wade was a bad thing that overstepped the bounds of federal power, and we'd like to see it left to the states (which is Ron Paul's position, too.)
thank you for the clarification.
I do think all political parties have been infiltrated and torn apart. I am extremely bitter at some Libertarians as of late, some of them are acting like a bunch of jealous neocons. They piss me off more than the Republicans because the Libertarians pretended to be Ron Paul supporters. The cons and libs never pretended to support him, offer him the nomination, then when he said no, post stories that are passive aggressive and slanderous.
I once thought the Libertarian party was a sort of escape route, I now view them more as an escape route with several check points along the way. ;)

[brandon]

I wanted to find out what the "National Initiative for Democracy." was, so I went to gravels webpage. The first three sentences are incorrect and demonstrate that he does not have even a basic grasp of the political process.



The central power of government in a democracy is lawmaking –– not voting. Those who make the laws determine how, when, and if voters can vote. Florida and Ohio are but recent examples.



There were no laws or government action that led to what happened in Florida and Ohio. It was a RULE by a private political party. Not a law passed by government.

[brandon]

On further reading of the "National Initiative for Democracy" I am even more put off by it. First of all, it would make our entire constitution practically null and void.

Our founders set up our country as a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC instead of as a democracy for a very good reason. Direct democracy, like Gravel is calling for, is nothing more then tyranny of the minority by the majority.

[mdh]

thank you for the clarification.
I do think all political parties have been infiltrated and torn apart. I am extremely bitter at some Libertarians as of late, some of them are acting like a bunch of jealous neocons. They piss me off more than the Republicans because the Libertarians pretended to be Ron Paul supporters. The cons and libs never pretended to support him, offer him the nomination, then when he said no, post stories that are passive aggressive and slanderous.
I once thought the Libertarian party was a sort of escape route, I now view them more as an escape route with several check points along the way. ;)

If a few people have said or posted such things, they speak only for themselves. The vast majority of LP'ers supported and continue to support Dr. Paul as a Republican for the presidential nomination, supported him as a Republican for his congressional re-election, and would have gladly continued to support him as a Libertarian for president. Why don't you call out some of the "jealous neocons" in the LP and we can discuss it, but personally I don't know anyone in the LP who is that way. Heck, most of the LP of West Virginia's executive committee served as delegates to the state GOP convention for Dr. Paul! :)


On further reading of the "National Initiative for Democracy" I am even more put off by it. First of all, it would make our entire constitution practically null and void.

Our founders set up our country as a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC instead of as a democracy for a very good reason. Direct democracy, like Gravel is calling for, is nothing more then tyranny of the minority by the majority.

Personally, I see direct democracy as no worse, and possibly better, than representative rule. If we're being oppressed by "the masses", at least we have a lot better opportunity to do something about it than what we have now, which is oppression by a virtually untouchable ruling class. It's not a fix-all, it isn't really even a solution. It's just an opportunity, and quite possibly a better opportunity than the opportunities that we have today. When you approach it from that perspective, it seems like a half-way decent idea. As far as constitutionality goes, no one's denying that it would require an amendment to implement at the national level, and it would not tear down the constitution. Just as no law shall be passed now violating the constitution, no law shall be passed by the people violating the constitution. Of course, that's all in theory anyways, as our representatives routinely violate the constitution today both with legislation and without regard for any legislation. What The National Initiative lacks is a solution to the problem of constitutional ignorance on the part of the executive branch, and that's yet another can of worms to be tackled, and one which no law seems capable of tackling.

What we have today is tyranny of the majority by a minority. At the very least, I don't see how the opposite is any worse. If we don't want tyranny, let's just get rid of the government. ;)

[revolutionary8]

Why don't you call out some of the "jealous neocons" in the LP and we can discuss it, but personally I don't know anyone in the LP who is that way. Heck, most of the LP of West Virginia's executive committee served as delegates to the state GOP convention for Dr. Paul!
Should we start with Eric Dondero?

edit to add,
mdh,
I read a bit of the "National Initiative" myself, and I was at first alarmed, (amending the constitution) but realistically speaking, I wonder how feasible it will be to scale down government in the way that "we" would like to see it scaled down. I like the idea of a Citizen guided legislation in today's American Idol/political climate. In the very least it will get people on "the other side of the spectrum" thinking about a less 'radical" form of action, and realizing that their political leaders do not work for them and never have.

[familydog]

Should we start with Eric Dondero?

Ha. Is he still trolling around the internet? Ever since Rudy dropped out he's nowhere to be seen.

[revolutionary8]

Ha. Is he still trolling around the internet? Ever since Rudy dropped out he's nowhere to be seen.
He's been hiding under Rudy's skirt. :D

[amy31416]

this sounds just like what "they" say about Ron Paul and our legions. lol
It should have been the crazies vs. the crazies- Ron Paul vs. Gravel or Kucinich in the General, but of course that was not anointed to be.
:D

Oh no son, it's a whole different kind of crazy. Gravel with his pandering to the kids to the point of being the goofy grandpa rapping in YouTube videos and Kucinich with the UFO's (mind you, I don't really care what they do or believe, but I'm not going to promote clownish behavior, nor do I ever think it will sell in the conservative movement.)

Ron Paul's "crazy" is a return to our American roots and keeping our government in check. Ron Paul himself is a very dignified and principled individual, and anyone who fell for the "crazy" part with absolutely no evidence from the man himself? Well, I have little respect for them.

[revolutionary8]

Oh no son, it's a whole different kind of crazy. Gravel with his pandering to the kids to the point of being the goofy grandpa rapping in YouTube videos and Kucinich with the UFO's (mind you, I don't really care what they do or believe, but I'm not going to promote clownish behavior, nor do I ever think it will sell in the conservative movement.)

Ron Paul's "crazy" is a return to our American roots and keeping our government in check. Ron Paul himself is a very dignified and principled individual, and anyone who fell for the "crazy" part with absolutely no evidence from the man himself? Well, I have little respect for them.

I have respect for Gravel for ending the draft, and respect for Dennis Kucinich for throwing Pelosi and Reid out of his office when they approached him with tithings from AIPAC.
According to some Neocons, the NAFTA superhighway is really a Conspiracy theory, and according to some Neoliberals, Ron Paul is a racist. Of course, those are both bi-partisan issues, and each theatrical 'side' has played their part at poking and stoking at different times. Let's not forget the "Paultards" and the 5% recording.
Don't you see, this is not left vs. right, this is up vs. down. Until people understand this basic premise, we're all doomed. You show me the evidence that DK or MG are elitists and bought/paid by big gov/corp- we will talk.
oops, forgot to add- even some of the so called Libertarians cowered in fear when the phony newsletters and the faked and forged 'friendship' with agent Bill broke. :rolleyes:

[mdh]

Should we start with Eric Dondero?

Woah there! Dondero is not a part of the LP, and to my knowledge, never had been. An asshat like that guy would get drummed right out, though.



edit to add,
mdh,
I read a bit of the "National Initiative" myself, and I was at first alarmed, (amending the constitution) but realistically speaking, I wonder how feasible it will be to scale down government in the way that "we" would like to see it scaled down. I like the idea of a Citizen guided legislation in today's American Idol/political climate. In the very least it will get people on "the other side of the spectrum" thinking about a less 'radical" form of action, and realizing that their political leaders do not work for them and never have.

Well, it's not a solution, it's just an opportunity. It sounds genuinely interesting, and as I've said before, there's nothing inherently unlibertarian about it whatsoever.

One thing to consider is how the people of California passed a medical marijuana referendum against the will of their representatives (who clearly weren't representing the interests of the people!) and even the will of the federal government.

[revolutionary8]

Woah there! Dondero is not a part of the LP, and to my knowledge, never had been. An asshat like that guy would get drummed right out, though.



Well, it's not a solution, it's just an opportunity. It sounds genuinely interesting, and as I've said before, there's nothing inherently unlibertarian about it whatsoever.

One thing to consider is how the people of California passed a medical marijuana referendum against the will of their representatives (who clearly weren't representing the interests of the people!) and even the will of the federal government.

Calm down Nelly. :D
http: //www.mainstreamlibertarian.com
Site published by Eric Dondero of Houston, Texas at 832-896-9505
:D

[mdh]

Just because you create a website with libertarian in the domain name doesn't mean you have anything to do with the LP. Dondero is no more than a laughing-stock amongst libertarians.

[mdh]

http://www.mainstreamlibertarian.com/wsn/images/imglib2/category17/mother0001.gif

Also, why is that young girl being molested by that weird old woman on his website? Libertarians oppose child molestation.

[revolutionary8]

Lol.
Come on people now, smile on your brother, every body get to gether n try to love one a nother right now.
-or something like that.

[rossl]

Thank you, mdh. You've put the Ni4D into perspective. It really is an opportunity. Maybe it won't solve any of our problems. But no matter what it will give the people a method for change. Free speech zones? That's the best we can do now to incite change? Screw that! We need to be able to change government from the inside.

Keep in mind - the Ni4D would act as a supplement to our current government.

[mdh]

Lol.
Come on people now, smile on your brother, every body get to gether n try to love one a nother right now.
-or something like that.

Libertarians are brutal. When we feel depressed, we go down to Mississippi to learn the blues, out-capitalist the devil, then f- up some hippies.

If you didn't get it, watch Metalocalypse.

[revolutionary8]

Libertarians are brutal. When we feel depressed, we go down to Mississippi to learn the blues, out-capitalist the devil, then f- up some hippies.

If you didn't get it, watch Metalocalypse.

Mississippi has hippi's? That rhymes. lol.
Pretty soon, the yuppies of today will become the hippies of yesteryear.

Now, remind me of what the hippies of yesteryear brought us?
;)
edit- I will consider your recommendation of Metalocalypse "a sign" and will definitely watch it , since I am such a hippi. lol.

[mdh]

I just got my autographed copy of Citizen Power today. Looking forward to digging in.
I may post a review later in case anyone else is interested. :)

[LibertyEagle]

33 of your 34 posts have been about Gravel. If your goal is to promote Gravel, please do so on a different board. This is RON PAUL forums.

Thanks.

[rossl]

And this is the Mike Gravel/Kucinich/Edwards section...