Penn & Teller: Bullshit! - Alternative Medicine

[yongrel]

Another fantastic episode from everyone's favourite duo of libertarian magicians!

http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/television/Penn_%26_Teller%3A_Bullshit%21/48381/S1E2.html

Fair and biased, per usual :D

[LibertyOfOne]

Indeed. Too bad it does not focus on all those worthless supplements of which a majority don't hold up to their claims.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

wow, you see that guy that cracks baby bones? lol ha.

[thuja]

Indeed. Too bad it does not focus on all those worthless supplements of which a majority don't hold up to their claims.

like vitamin C made of corn, which is genetically modified, and E which is made of genetically modified soy, unless it states organic soy on the label. it is possible to get vitamin C made of cassava, but genetic modification of that is in the works, so check on that in the future. then there is the gelatin capsule from animal products, which could include the risk of prion disease.
there are whole food vitamins, and there is actual food, if you eat properly.
i do think vitamins are helpful if your diet is not complete, or if you have some health problem you are fixing. just inquire and get the best ones.
here's one: grownbynature.

[Kevlar]

I fucking HATE Penn & Teller.

They're either really ignorant or they're just a couple of corporate sellout whores.

They always have the absolute craziest nutjobs on their show and then use them to try and discredit a whole group of people.

You'd walk away from that show thinking all alternative healing people are completely out of their minds, when that is definitely not the case.

A raw food diet, yoga, etc, CAN heal all sorts of illnesses. If you address the CAUSE of the disease rather than just the symptoms of it, you DO see real results.

If you get any idea from that "Bullshit" show, more than likely, the exact opposite will be true.

Look to the internet for your answers.

-

[tmosley]

FYI vitamin C is vitamin C, Same with the rest of the alphabet. They are all relatively small molecules, so it doesn't matter where they come from. It is easy to test for structural regularity and purity, and it is done by all the manufacturers. If you buy something because it says "organic", you are throwing your money away.

[thuja]

FYI vitamin C is vitamin C, Same with the rest of the alphabet. They are all relatively small molecules, so it doesn't matter where they come from. It is easy to test for structural regularity and purity, and it is done by all the manufacturers. If you buy something because it says "organic", you are throwing your money away.

you should check on what is required to be labeled organic. NO genetically modified ingredients, no irradiation, no pesticides and chemicals.
therefore, organic ingredients are safer.
some vitamin C is made from cassava, rather than corn, so genetically modified C can be avoided. C from cassava is labeled as exactly that.

to use a product that is ALL organic, one would want vitamins from a company called firstorganics, which are labeled USDA organic. other companies will soon follow this example, and some label the individual ingredients as non gmo or organic.
i would not risk a "relatively small molecule" that was a gmo.

[tmosley]

I am a chemist, and have done quite a bit of work with vitamin C. If someone were to sell something that was different by a single chemical bond, it could not be called vitamin c, and would be removed from the market.

Genetic engineering modifies proteins. Vitamins are organic molecules, not proteins.

Vitamin C is vitamin C, no matter the source, just like water is water, or acetone is acetone, or N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide) is N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide).

I should have said if you buy a vitamin because it says "organic" on it you are throwing your money away. Foodstuffs and complex food derivatives may be affected, although this has yet to be shown.

[Banana]

Look to the internet for your answers.

Yeah, because we know that everything on Internet is true. Right? RIGHT? ;) :p

[thuja]

I am a chemist, and have done quite a bit of work with vitamin C. If someone were to sell something that was different by a single chemical bond, it could not be called vitamin c, and would be removed from the market.

Genetic engineering modifies proteins. Vitamins are organic molecules, not proteins.

Vitamin C is vitamin C, no matter the source, just like water is water, or acetone is acetone, or N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide) is N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide).

I should have said if you buy a vitamin because it says "organic" on it you are throwing your money away. Foodstuffs and complex food derivatives may be affected, although this has yet to be shown.

i want my vitamins to supply nutrients like food does.chemically created ascorbic acid is, to me, not the same as vitamin C in food, which also contains bioflavonoids.
tell me where the genetically modified part of the corn used to make vitamin C goes. how do they make it disappear? are you certain it's not in there somewhere?
how about the genetically modified soy used for vitamin E or phosphatyidyl serine,etc.. or the gel caps they are contained in? where did they put the genetically modified part of the soy? i have seen nothing saying that it is removed sometime before it's sold to the consumer.
i am not going to risk consuming GE things, especially considering the research showing dangerous health effects resulting from gmos.
i am going to go squeeze some grapefruits, but if i did not have any, i would take vitamins from first organics or grownbynature, or foodform.

[thuja]

go ahead, mosley, convince me. i have oodles of ordinary ascorbic acid that i don't take. maybe i could open a roadside stand and sell it with advice, like lucy.

[amy31416]

i want my vitamins to supply nutrients like food does.chemically created ascorbic acid is, to me, not the same as vitamin C in food, which also contains bioflavonoids.
tell me where the genetically modified part of the corn used to make vitamin C goes. how do they make it disappear? are you certain it's not in there somewhere?
how about the genetically modified soy used for vitamin E or phosphatyidyl serine,etc.. or the gel caps they are contained in? where did they put the genetically modified part of the soy? i have seen nothing saying that it is removed sometime before it's sold to the consumer.
i am not going to risk consuming GE things, especially considering the research showing dangerous health effects resulting from gmos.
i am going to go squeeze some grapefruits, but if i did not have any, i would take vitamins from first organics or grownbynature, or foodform.

http://chemlab.truman.edu/CHEM120Labs/SpectroKFiles/Vitami3.gif

That is vitamin C, whether you extract it from rose hips, oranges or if I make it in a lab. There is no difference between vitamin C from genetically modified food, organic food or if it's cooked up in a lab. You see, vitamin C has zero genetic material. It is a clearly defined molecule and all other substances, in a good quality supplement, are removed.

So, that said, what is possibly legitimate to be concerned about is what other fillers or bulking agents are used in your supplement of choice. Check the label. The only difference to your body in taking it in supplement form, is that food acts as a time-release agent. The body gets rid of vitamin C quickly, so to emulate a more natural mode of uptake, take small amounts all during the day.

Be smart, don't waste your money. There are some foods that are worth the extra money to buy organic (milk, lettuces and others), there are some that make no sense to buy organic (bananas, oranges and others.)

[thuja]

http://chemlab.truman.edu/CHEM120Labs/SpectroKFiles/Vitami3.gif

That is vitamin C, whether you extract it from rose hips, oranges or if I make it in a lab. There is no difference between vitamin C from genetically modified food, organic food or if it's cooked up in a lab. You see, vitamin C has zero genetic material. It is a clearly defined molecule and all other substances, in a good quality supplement, are removed.

So, that said, what is possibly legitimate to be concerned about is what other fillers or bulking agents are used in your supplement of choice. Check the label. The only difference to your body in taking it in supplement form, is that food acts as a time-release agent. The body gets rid of vitamin C quickly, so to emulate a more natural mode of uptake, take small amounts all during the day.

Be smart, don't waste your money. There are some foods that are worth the extra money to buy organic (milk, lettuces and others), there are some that make no sense to buy organic (bananas, oranges and others.)
i consider it wise use of my money not to support monsanto and relatives, and i think that will become more obvoious to everyone, hopefully before it is too late.

why is ascorbic acid or chemical vitamin C said to be different from natural vitamin C? is it just because it is missing the bioflavonoids? and vitamin E? is that because of missing tocotrienols? how are the gmos kept out of the soy gelcaps?

[amy31416]

i consider it wise use of my money not to support monsanto and relatives, and i think that will become more obvoious to everyone, hopefully before it is too late.[QUOTE]

I happen to agree on Monsanto, not particularly the most ethical company in the world.

[QUOTE=thuja;1394582]
why is ascorbic acid or chemical vitamin C said to be different from natural vitamin C? is it just because it is missing the bioflavonoids? and vitamin E? is that because of missing tocotrienols? how are the gmos kept out of the soy gelcaps?

Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. There is no difference between chemical vit C and natural. The only difference is what the manufacturer leaves in your supplement.

Bioflavonoids are plant pigments. There may be some unproven health benefit to them, not sure--they certainly don't seem to be harmful. Tocotrienols are in the vitamin E family--not harmful unless in high concentration (they are fat soluble as opposed to vitamin C being water soluble.)

As far as genetically modified foods in the soy gelcaps, can't help you there, you'll have to do the research. I'm sure there are companies that sell non-GM gelcaps.

At this point, you just have to do the research yourself on which company you trust and want to go with. But don't fall for "organic" or "non-GM" vitamin C--you just might be getting bamboozled.

[youhaveitinspades]

I have a degree in biochemistry and there is no such thing as "organic" or "inorganic" Vitamin C. The only difference would be in the production process. So there is no benifit health-wise to choose an organic vitamin.

However, it is perfectly fine to choose an "organic" vitamin for moral reasons, such as using your $$ to show you support farm/extraction companies as opposed to chemical companies or genetically modified yeast production. Keep in mind that the end product is absolutely identical and there is absolutely no health effects from product molecules from genetically modified bioreactor production.

Also different brands of vitamin C supplements have different adulterants, such as the bioflavenoids mentioned before, which allow such things as timed release. The presence/amount/type could also guide your choice.

Hope this was helpful. I've personally genetically modified bacteria many times and the science is not nearly as scary as it sounds.

[thuja]

here is a book that should explain what i mean: the vitamin myth exposed by clement
it will be sold very soon.
meanwhie, go to www.organicconsumers.org and click on" nutricon" which is their campaign concerning chemical vitamins vs organic.

[thuja]

I have a degree in biochemistry and there is no such thing as "organic" or "inorganic" Vitamin C. The only difference would be in the production process. So there is no benifit health-wise to choose an organic vitamin.

However, it is perfectly fine to choose an "organic" vitamin for moral reasons, such as using your $$ to show you support farm/extraction companies as opposed to chemical companies or genetically modified yeast production. Keep in mind that the end product is absolutely identical and there is absolutely no health effects from product molecules from genetically modified bioreactor production.

Also different brands of vitamin C supplements have different adulterants, such as the bioflavenoids mentioned before, which allow such things as timed release. The presence/amount/type could also guide your choice.

Hope this was helpful. I've personally genetically modified bacteria many times and the science is not nearly as scary as it sounds.
yes, very, but i am curious about genetically modified bacteria, and wonder if any of the probiotics that are popular usually contain them, such as primal defense from garden of life, for example.
is the saccharomyces cerveviciae (spelling?) used to produce the fermented vitamins usually genetically modified as well?
why would bioflavonoids, naturally occuring companions to vitamin C, be considered adulterants, or cause timed release?

[amy31416]

yes, very, but i am curious about genetically modified bacteria, and wonder if any of the probiotics that are popular usually contain them, such as primal defense from garden of life, for example.
is the saccharomyces cerveviciae (spelling?) used to produce the fermented vitamins usually genetically modified as well?
why would bioflavonoids, naturally occuring companions to vitamin C, be considered adulterants, or cause timed release?

I've mutated bacteria as well, and I imagine that there might be some mutated bacteria used in foods, but if you're gung ho on making sure you don't consume them, you have to check each one out individually.

saccharomyces cerevisiae is not one of them, it is actually yeast. The yeast used in ancient times for baking and brewing. Bioflavanoids are not considered adulterants, and since there are so many different types, you really have to do the research on it yourself. There's tons of sites out there with info on them, but most of them are trying to sell you a product, so here's a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid

[thuja]

I've mutated bacteria as well, and I imagine that there might be some mutated bacteria used in foods, but if you're gung ho on making sure you don't consume them, you have to check each one out individually.

saccharomyces cerevisiae is not one of them, it is actually yeast. The yeast used in ancient times for baking and brewing. Bioflavanoids are not considered adulterants, and since there are so many different types, you really have to do the research on it yourself. There's tons of sites out there with info on them, but most of them are trying to sell you a product, so here's a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid
thanks! i find a lot of useful info at www.nutraingredients.com and related sites. creative uses of bacteria are often mentioned here. to find out what individual companies are using is extremely difficult, as you know, since they often do not tell the consumer, citing their right to use "proprietary" formulas. especially garden of life, and new chapter, who do not tell anything useful, but seem to have very good products.
the other companies that ferment vitamins, grownbynature and foodform are saying what you are saying, so i am glad it's just an ordinary yeast that is used. these two companies are still honest.
i did not think bioflavonoids were adulterants, and am aware, as you say, that there are many, and they occur naturally in foods, along with vitamin C.
this whole business of finding out exactly what is in supplements is a difficult one, as companies are, first of all, selling something.
i used to take tons of supplements, and considered myself fairly well educated in this area, but i am thinking that the newer view, that chemical isolates are not as helpful as vitamins in their complete form, (as found i actual food, and whole food type supplements) is probably more accurate.
that's why i look forward to a book called "the vitamin myth exposed", hoping to see some good explanations.
meanwhile, i am glad to know vitamin C is just that. now i am trying to find out more about aminos, and things like human hair and turkey feathers used to make things like NAC and taurine.

[Flash]

I can't stand Penn and Teller. Look up their Ghandi episode (their source was a sikh man with a bias) or their immigration episode (where they call minutemen a bunch of racists and try to paint white people in a bad picture). So I can't really trust that show on anything.

[thuja]

hey! grassroots pals! today i am stopping the banging of my head on a block wall, trying to analyze chemical and fermented vitamins, and their enclosure in animal product capsules, which contribute to unpeakable animal cruelty and the risk of prion disease.

i found a corporate office person who is honest, and like me when i worked for a corporation, suggested something not from her corporation, along with her experience with it. wheatgrass!
i had, earler today, gone to a website looking for up to date info on the book, the vitamin myth, so her confirmation of the usefulness of wheatgrass was what is now referred to as synchronicity, i guess.

now my life is easier, as i do not have to spend so much time taking an arnold and stallone amount of supplements. now i can just eat food and take fresh wheatgrass in order to get all the nutrients i need, vitamins and amino acids. i had overlooked this while deeply involved with my investigations of supplements.

look at the penn and teller video again, especially the dopes with the snail facials. that's what i think of myself for falling for the whole supplement thing. well, maybe not quite so stupid, since supplements have more support than snail facials, but fairly stupid.
fabulous thread ! it led me to a useful result! thanx!

[juice797]

Yes, vitamin C is ascorbic acid, as it stands today. It is a unique chemical. However, it didn't start out that way. It was assumed that vitamin C was a single chemical and could be isolated. So work was done to isolate it. Ascorbic acid was the result. But in fact what was originally termed vitamin C was more than what we know as vitamin C today. It includes the bioflavinoids, etc. Find out more about the history of vitamin C, and you'll see there's much more to the story than those who say "I'm a scientist, trust me vitamin C = ascorbic acid". You see, technically they're right, but that's far from the whole picture from a nutritional standpoint. Do your own research, and don't make assumptions. That goes for everything else in life, too.

[Perry]

Another fantastic episode from everyone's favourite duo of libertarian magicians!

http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/television/Penn_%26_Teller%3A_Bullshit%21/48381/S1E2.html

Fair and biased, per usual :D

Drugs are chemicals.
Alternative medicines are chemicals.
Foods are chemicals.
Drugs come from animals & plants.
Alternative medicines come from animals & plants.
Food comes from animals & plants.
Scientifically it is not possible to distinguish one of these from another and alternative medicines are nothing less than medicines that haven't been approved by the fda.
P&T no absolutely nothing about science or chemistry.

[icon124]

Since we have a bunch of chemists in this thread that seem to know what they are talking about I need to ask a few questions.

1st - Any fruit (organic or GM) is good? Should I just go for the cheapest since they are all the same?

2nd - Is there any GM'd food I should be worried about?

Basically tell me what I should eat to be healthy lol

[thuja]

Since we have a bunch of chemists in this thread that seem to know what they are talking about I need to ask a few questions.

1st - Any fruit (organic or GM) is good? Should I just go for the cheapest since they are all the same?

2nd - Is there any GM'd food I should be worried about?

Basically tell me what I should eat to be healthy lol
i am not one of the chemists here, but would suggest avoiding any gmos and eat nice, normal organic everything.
i would especially worry about corn, soy, cottonseed, and canola, rice, and some papaya, and would keep an eye on www.gmwatch.org for info and news.
here is a site that offers hope, as things can be tested for gmos:
www.nongmoproject.org
and a useful newsletter:www.non-gmoreport.com

[tmosley]

The main problem with GM food is that it tends to get loose and contaminate other food supplies, which will not be labeled as GM, which is why there has been such a big uproar about it. Those fruits and veggies that are engineered to be more resistant to shipping, etc, aren't all that bad, as they were meant to be consumed by everyone.

The problem comes when some third world researcher grows his estrogen producing rice just down the road from a food rice paddy. You get cross pollination, and suddenly everyone who eats rice is on hormone replacement therapy.

So the problem with GM food is mainly that the modified genes can spread, and if those genes are designed to produce a drug, that drug is going to be in the food supply.

To directly answer your question, the cheapest one is fine. I generally look for the tastiest ones while they are on sale, and preserve them.

[amy31416]

hey! grassroots pals! today i am stopping the banging of my head on a block wall, trying to analyze chemical and fermented vitamins, and their enclosure in animal product capsules, which contribute to unpeakable animal cruelty and the risk of prion disease.

i found a corporate office person who is honest, and like me when i worked for a corporation, suggested something not from her corporation, along with her experience with it. wheatgrass!
i had, earler today, gone to a website looking for up to date info on the book, the vitamin myth, so her confirmation of the usefulness of wheatgrass was what is now referred to as synchronicity, i guess.

now my life is easier, as i do not have to spend so much time taking an arnold and stallone amount of supplements. now i can just eat food and take fresh wheatgrass in order to get all the nutrients i need, vitamins and amino acids. i had overlooked this while deeply involved with my investigations of supplements.

look at the penn and teller video again, especially the dopes with the snail facials. that's what i think of myself for falling for the whole supplement thing. well, maybe not quite so stupid, since supplements have more support than snail facials, but fairly stupid.
fabulous thread ! it led me to a useful result! thanx!

Oh, and wheatgrass is very fast-growing and easy to produce yourself. I briefly did some research on it years ago.

Congrats on the find.

[thuja]

Yes, vitamin C is ascorbic acid, as it stands today. It is a unique chemical. However, it didn't start out that way. It was assumed that vitamin C was a single chemical and could be isolated. So work was done to isolate it. Ascorbic acid was the result. But in fact what was originally termed vitamin C was more than what we know as vitamin C today. It includes the bioflavinoids, etc. Find out more about the history of vitamin C, and you'll see there's much more to the story than those who say "I'm a scientist, trust me vitamin C = ascorbic acid". You see, technically they're right, but that's far from the whole picture from a nutritional standpoint. Do your own research, and don't make assumptions. That goes for everything else in life, too.
thanks, i was hoping someone would say this.

[thuja]

Oh, and wheatgrass is very fast-growing and easy to produce yourself. I briefly did some research on it years ago.

Congrats on the find.
thanks, i'm really pleased myself:)
till i get my own growing, i found a place that sends cut wheatgrass, sunflower, etc:http://sungrownorganics.com/( it's an attractive website)
oops, not attractive, anyway, its sungrown organics

[amy31416]

Since we have a bunch of chemists in this thread that seem to know what they are talking about I need to ask a few questions.

1st - Any fruit (organic or GM) is good? Should I just go for the cheapest since they are all the same?

2nd - Is there any GM'd food I should be worried about?

Basically tell me what I should eat to be healthy lol

I'm one of 'em.

1. All fruits are not the same. a) Avoiding GM is, at this point, a personal choice because the official research has not shown that it's better or worse for you. Keep things balanced in your thinking--GM crops have allowed food to grow in areas of Africa where crops could not previously grow. Also, crops of rice have been modified to contain more vitamin A, helping out the locals with important nutrition. It's not all evil. As far as seeds go, do not get the GM seeds--they produce fruits and vegetables that are sterile--not good for the farmers and gardeners of the world.

b) Organic foods--the most important foods to go organic with are: beef, pork, chicken, milk, milk products, all the berries, apples, tomatoes, salad greens, coffee, potatoes, celery, peppers, peaches. The reason these are more important is because the fruits/vegetables absorb the pesticides, and the milk/meat has a lot of the hormones in the product. I'm tired of typing, so here's a good article: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/food/diet-nutrition/organic-products/organic-products-206/when-buying-organic-pays-and-doesnt/index.htm


2. As far as I know, there is no conclusive evidence that GM food is any better or worse for anyone. So, to repeat, they are modified to have better nutritional content, need less pesticide and even have environmental benefits. It's not evil just because it's a big company.

I'm not an expert in this particular area, I just have a little side-hobby of some of these things, but you don't have to have a degree in chemistry to do the research. There's lots of good resources on the 'net, just try to avoid the BS sites where Mary Jo decides that everything MUST be organic and all GM foods are evil, then makes up some BS to back it up, or cherry picks what info she includes.

[yongrel]

^great post

The big problem I have with the organic food movement isn't organic food; it's their unfortunate tendency to group GM foods together with pesticides and hormones and whatnot.

I like me my GM foods, just not when they're covered in chemicals.

[thuja]

wrong, gmos are a verybigproblem. the leader of this disaster is monsanto, not some creative guy in a third world country. those countries are suffering because on monsanto and pals. people commit suicide regularly because of GE and monsanto, and these crops, which are supposed to use less pesticide, use 10 times as much pesticide.
they are invasive, and infect normal crops.
the are far from being more nutritious, and organic crops provide much more.
there is a lot of documentation abot the serious adverse health effects from gmos.
the biofuel crops, which are gmos, and soy in general, has been wiping out the rainforests, and we are already feling the negative effects of the destroying of all the natural trees there in favor of soy crops.
please please, take a regular thoughtful look at www.gmwatch.org, www.biofuelwatch.org.uk
also, the videos in the gmo trilogy thread in the health freedom section of this site explains some things about this.

[thuja]

^great post

The big problem I have with the organic food movement isn't organic food; it's their unfortunate tendency to group GM foods together with pesticides and hormones and whatnot.

I like me my GM foods, just not when they're covered in chemicals.

it's unfortunate, but pesticides, etc are built right into the gm crops.
they also use MORE pesticide. they ARE covered in chemicals.

[amy31416]

Yes, vitamin C is ascorbic acid, as it stands today. It is a unique chemical. However, it didn't start out that way. It was assumed that vitamin C was a single chemical and could be isolated. So work was done to isolate it. Ascorbic acid was the result. But in fact what was originally termed vitamin C was more than what we know as vitamin C today. It includes the bioflavinoids, etc. Find out more about the history of vitamin C, and you'll see there's much more to the story than those who say "I'm a scientist, trust me vitamin C = ascorbic acid". You see, technically they're right, but that's far from the whole picture from a nutritional standpoint. Do your own research, and don't make assumptions. That goes for everything else in life, too.

I understand the history part, but I have my trusty Merck Index, 11th edition and it doesn't even list vitamin C. Under ascorbic acid, it states that it is vitamin C. That is the precise chemical interpretation and that's what I go with. Flavonoids should be addressed separately chemically, but supplements should work both in conjunction, just like the B vitamins work better together than apart.

Still stand by the notion that buying "organic" or "non-GM" vitamin C could be a bunch of hogwash. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C is ascorbic acid. The other components, well, like you said juice797, you'll have to do your own research and not make assumptions.

[amy31416]

it's unfortunate, but pesticides, etc are built right into the gm crops.
they also use MORE pesticide. they ARE covered in chemicals.

Going to have to ask you for some sources on that. Not really sure how you could build a pesticide into a crop, I mean you can genetically modify it to have resistance, but ya can't, as far as I know, attach some agent orange to a corn gene and have it replicate during the growth process.

And yeah, there have been some GM crop failures. There have also been many successes, you're probably eating it right now and have been since 1994.

[thuja]

Going to have to ask you for some sources on that. Not really sure how you could build a pesticide into a crop, I mean you can genetically modify it to have resistance, but ya can't, as far as I know, attach some agent orange to a corn gene and have it replicate during the growth process.

And yeah, there have been some GM crop failures. There have also been many successes, you're probably eating it right now and have been since 1994.
i may have, if contained in my cigarettes, since tobacco is genetically modified, but i now smoke organic cigs, and will probabl give up that last thing that's not so good pretty soon. also, in the vitamin C made of corn, but you say that's not possible when they isolate the ascorbic acid. or soy in vit E or gelcaps or something.

i never ever eat anything in a package, wrapper, box, can, etc, except wild alaska salmon, so maybe some farmed fish have or will ruin that. i have some organic canned soup, and hope i do not have to eat it. can liners contain bisphenol A and phthalates.
otherwise, i only eat organic produce. soon, most sellers will have joined www.nongmoproject.org, so if gmos get mixed in, they can be detected.

it takes awhile to research and understand the GE problem. unfortunately, you believe the hype put out by( or sponsored by, through some think tanks )monsanto.
the best place to read al about this is still the site i have suggested"www.gmwatch.org, who also publish the contrary view, usually monsanto's, when available. there are many resources there, including results of tests demonstrating the health results of consuming these gmos. unfortunately, many are animal tests.
if ou did not know, GE animals are designed to use as test animals. the ultimate cruelty.
the farmers in india kill themselves because of gm crops and the way monsanto forces them to farm.
anyway, if you spend time really studying this, several myths will be gone. it is often difficult to think that sometimes the old way was best, and hard to give up on anything that outwardly held so much promise.
there are, happily, newer ways to hybridize that make GE outdated, and maybe you will find reference to some of these there.
there is no time to waste believing that GE is a good solution to problems, as it is a problem.
again, those videos in the gmo trilogy thread are helpful. good researching. www.gmwatch.org

[Cowlesy]

I always wondered...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgtgOs_OkTU&NR=1

...now I know!

[amy31416]

If you read an earlier post of mine, in this and other threads, I've criticized Monsanto quite a bit. They've done some bad stuff and don't deserve the consumer's support.

I don't believe any hype. I'm realistic. There are crops growing in Africa that could not grow there before. Some of these crops have extra nutrients due to the modification. Are these companies out to make a buck? Sure!

But I can assure you, having worked for a giant evil corporation, that the people doing the research are not looking to introduce evil things into the world, they/we are actually quite driven by the "guilt factor," whether that be children starving or people dying of tuberculosis (my former "thing.") I worked 70 hrs/week and burned myself out doing it, and so did a lot of my colleagues.

So, for you to write off GM foods as purely evil is to accept that every scientist involved in it is interested in doing harm to masses of people. I assure you, this is not the case. More likely is that they are wrapped up to the point of OCD in getting food to grow for people who are starving, and are trying to get crops to grow with less pesticides because they understand the potential harm of chemicals in the food supply.

Once again, I say that choosing to select or not select GM foods is a personal choice. I gave my rationale for dismissing the GM seeds entirely. I do not believe the hype, whether it comes from the left or the right. If you only want to hear things that confirm what you want to believe then just say so.

[thuja]

If you read an earlier post of mine, in this and other threads, I've criticized Monsanto quite a bit. They've done some bad stuff and don't deserve the consumer's support.

I don't believe any hype. I'm realistic. There are crops growing in Africa that could not grow there before. Some of these crops have extra nutrients due to the modification. Are these companies out to make a buck? Sure!

But I can assure you, having worked for a giant evil corporation, that the people doing the research are not looking to introduce evil things into the world, they/we are actually quite driven by the "guilt factor," whether that be children starving or people dying of tuberculosis (my former "thing.") I worked 70 hrs/week and burned myself out doing it, and so did a lot of my colleagues.

So, for you to write off GM foods as purely evil is to accept that every scientist involved in it is interested in doing harm to masses of people. I assure you, this is not the case. More likely is that they are wrapped up to the point of OCD in getting food to grow for people who are starving, and are trying to get crops to grow with less pesticides because they understand the potential harm of chemicals in the food supply.

Once again, I say that choosing to select or not select GM foods is a personal choice. I gave my rationale for dismissing the GM seeds entirely. I do not believe the hype, whether it comes from the left or the right. If you only want to hear things that confirm what you want to believe then just say so.
i see you are upset, and i apologize for causing that. i do not aim this at individuals. many, like you, have good intentions of such things as feeding the world, but have not taken the time to stand back at look at this issue clearly, often as a result of being too busy at their chosen fields.
if, however, people continue to fail at this, the results will be unmanageable.
once again, the crops designed to use fewer pesticides are using ten times more. see the video in the gmo trilogy thread to undestand that. this is merely one failure of gmo crops. also, it isn't always wise to grow a crop in an area where it previously did not. a better solution would be finding a way to get that food to the people in that area. this item is interesting to study, and i hope that you will.

finally, i am not the sort who needs to be right to be happy, and if this whole gmo thing really were beneficial to anyone, i would be glad. but it isn't, and i hope and pray that everyone concerned comes to their senses and that it stops. really, i am not happy that anyone would feel bad, but of all people, ron paul supporter-types should already be aware of media hype and the facts being covered up. so, look into this asap. it's really big.

[ulsterscots]

..

[juice797]

Still stand by the notion that buying "organic" or "non-GM" vitamin C could be a bunch of hogwash. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C is ascorbic acid. The other components, well, like you said juice797, you'll have to do your own research and not make assumptions.

I agree with you.

I never said a thing about organic or non-GM vitamin C. If you're buying ascorbic acid, then organic or non-GM doesn't mean a thing. If I led you to assume otherwise by not addressing this directly, I apologize.

[thuja]

I agree with you.

I never said a thing about organic or non-GM vitamin C. If you're buying ascorbic acid, then organic or non-GM doesn't mean a thing. If I led you to assume otherwise by not addressing this directly, I apologize.
it would still mean a great deal to someone who did not wish to support genetic engineering.
the vitamin companies should be supplying cassava or other non gmo vitamin C, and non gmo vitamin E and others. several are doing so already, as people are demanding non gmo supplements as well as food.

[thuja]

I agree with you.

I never said a thing about organic or non-GM vitamin C. If you're buying ascorbic acid, then organic or non-GM doesn't mean a thing. If I led you to assume otherwise by not addressing this directly, I apologize.
how, exactly, is the ascorbic acid isolated, and what is done with the remander of the corn product, i wonder?

[juice797]

Well, for supplementation, solution isn't to buy isolated ascorbic acid. Anyone would be better off getting real "vitamin C" with a whole food supplement like organic nonGM rosehips/camucamu/bitterorange/tomato etc. vege capsules or powder.

[amy31416]

All of this can be solved by just eating foods that are high in vitamin C. Check out this list of foods, it's actually somewhat surprising to see which foods have high C content:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Natural_and_artificial_dietary_sources

[yongrel]

All of this can be solved by just eating foods that are high in vitamin C. Check out this list of foods, it's actually somewhat surprising to see which foods have high C content:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C#Natural_and_artificial_dietary_sources

Is there any proof that Vitamin C really is beneficial though?

I was under the impression that Linus Pauling went crazy after his wife died, and pulled Vitamin C out of his ass. I'm not terribly educated about it though.

[thuja]

i thought there was no vit B12 in a vegetarian diet, and was occassionally taking methylcobalamin or synthetic b12. i just read somewhere yesterday that wheat grass, unlike vegetables, contains it.
maybe it was in wikipedia.

[thuja]

evidently, wheatgrass can be a source for mold, so it's important to grow it right. the mold may be the reasons for headaches, and not as much from a detoxification effect.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

So what do you think about the guy that cracks the bones of babies? lol.. surprised no one mentioned him.

[thuja]

So what do you think about the guy that cracks the bones of babies? lol.. surprised no one mentioned him.
i wonder about the babiy"s parents. did they ask to have this done due to their own success with chiropractic adjustments?
the baby did not go to the chiropractor by himself.

people get very enthusiastic about health ideas, and foist them onto others, sometimes without proper consideration for the other's circumstances. most health practices are either helpful or without ill effect, but some could be a mistake. i am unaware of the benefit of chiropractics for babies.

my favorite, though, is the snail facial, showing the power of suggestion. that power can be wisely used by us all, in visualizing healing, but those people look so stupid.

[amy31416]

Is there any proof that Vitamin C really is beneficial though?

I was under the impression that Linus Pauling went crazy after his wife died, and pulled Vitamin C out of his ass. I'm not terribly educated about it though.

Linus did go a bit apey and wrote a couple of pretty controversial books on Vitamin C. A shame, his early work in chemistry is truly outstanding.

Vitamin C is beneficial for some obvious reasons--scurvy being the main one. So, yes, we do need it. People who mega-dose on it though are just asking for kidney problems.

Personally, I don't take any vitamin supplements, they've made me feel like vomiting many times, and on a few occasions, actually have made me puke. So, I eat a bowl of fortified cereal when I don't think I'm getting good amounts of nutrition from the rest of the food I'm eating. Other than that, I just rely on what I eat.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

i wonder about the babiy"s parents. did they ask to have this done due to their own success with chiropractic adjustments?
the baby did not go to the chiropractor by himself.

people get very enthusiastic about health ideas, and foist them onto others, sometimes without proper consideration for the other's circumstances. most health practices are either helpful or without ill effect, but some could be a mistake. i am unaware of the benefit of chiropractics for babies.

my favorite, though, is the snail facial, showing the power of suggestion. that power can be wisely used by us all, in visualizing healing, but those people look so stupid.

lol. I bet the snails did feel good though.

[yongrel]

Linus did go a bit apey and wrote a couple of pretty controversial books on Vitamin C. A shame, his early work in chemistry is truly outstanding.

Vitamin C is beneficial for some obvious reasons--scurvy being the main one. So, yes, we do need it. People who mega-dose on it though are just asking for kidney problems.

Personally, I don't take any vitamin supplements, they've made me feel like vomiting many times, and on a few occasions, actually have made me puke. So, I eat a bowl of fortified cereal when I don't think I'm getting good amounts of nutrition from the rest of the food I'm eating. Other than that, I just rely on what I eat.

Well, I know that Vitamin C is necessary for several bodily functions and preventing scurvy and what not, but does it really have the health benefits people say it does?

It always seemed to me that Vitamin C was an easy way for food manufacturers to increase their sales by claiming a cheap additive was "healthy."

I'd read that most of the Vitamin C health craze started with Linus going cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

[amy31416]

Well, I know that Vitamin C is necessary for several bodily functions and preventing scurvy and what not, but does it really have the health benefits people say it does?

It always seemed to me that Vitamin C was an easy way for food manufacturers to increase their sales by claiming a cheap additive was "healthy."

I'd read that most of the Vitamin C health craze started with Linus going cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

Honestly, there's so many claims and so much BS out there that started with Pauling that I really can't make any definitive statement other than, "yeah, we need it." But how much is good? I don't know. From my trusty Merck Manual (home edition,) the synopsis is this:

"Vitamin C Deficiency: Vitamin C is essential for the formation of connective tissue. It helps the body absorb iron and recover from burns and wounds. Pregnancy, breastfeeding, overactivity of the thyroid gland, various kinds of inflammation, surgery and burns all can significantly increase the body's requirements for vitamin C and the risk of a deficiency." Then they go on to list scurvy, bleeding gums, weakness, fluctuations of BP and heart rate.

"Vitamin C Excess: 500 to 10,000 mg have been recommended by some to prevent the common cold, schizophrenia, cancer, hypercholesterolemia and artheriosclerosis. However, these recommendations have little to no scientific support. Doses higher than 1,000mg/day cause diarrhea, kidney stones and changes in the menstrual cycle. Some people who stop taking high doses develop rebound scurvy."

Their listed Daily Adult Requirement is 60mg. So, my opinion is that you adjust that number within reason, for any particular condition you might have. But, if you drink fortified juice and eat the right foods, there's probably no real reason for supplementation.

Ever take a vitamin and notice how it changes the color of your urine? Yep, that's all the water soluble vitamins that you just paid a fortune for being flushed down the toilet.

[yongrel]

Honestly, there's so many claims and so much BS out there that started with Pauling that I really can't make any definitive statement other than, "yeah, we need it." But how much is good? I don't know. From my trusty Merck Manual (home edition,) the synopsis is this:

"Vitamin C Deficiency: Vitamin C is essential for the formation of connective tissue. It helps the body absorb iron and recover from burns and wounds. Pregnancy, breastfeeding, overactivity of the thyroid gland, various kins of inflammation surgery and burns all can significantly increase the boy's requirements for vitamin C and the risk of a deficiency." Then they go on to list scurvy, bleeding gums, weakness, fluctuations of BP and heart rate.

"Vitamin C Excess: 500 to 10,000 mg have been recommene by some to prevent the common cold, schizophrenia, cancer, hypercholesterolemia and artheriosclerosis. However, these recommendations have little to no scientific support. Doses higher than 1,000mg/day cause diarrhea, kiney stones an chenges in the menstrual cycle. Some people who stop taking high doses develop rebound scurvy."

Their listed Daily Adult Requirement is 60mg. So, my opinion is that you adjust that number within reason, for any particular condition you might have. But, if you drink fortified juice and eat the right foods, there's probably no real reason for supplementation.

Ever take a vitamin and notice how it changes the color of your urine? Yep, that's all the water soluble vitamins that you just paid a fortune for being flushed down the toilet.

Danke. That clears that up.

[Bladestunner316]

Dont people relaize that they should get adivce from comedians?? There sole purpose to make money off of your ignorance.

[yongrel]

Dont people relaize that they should get adivce from comedians?? There sole purpose to make money off of your ignorance.

It's a good thing we're watching P&T then. They're not comedians.

[amy31416]

Dont people relaize that they should get adivce from comedians?? There sole purpose to make money off of your ignorance.

Ironically enough, the companies who make supplements sole purpose is also to make money off your ignorance and promote taking giant quantities of their product, just to piss it down the toilet and possibly cause a little damage in the process.

[thuja]

i would trust the cereal makers and milk sellers and other food makers even less than the supplement companies. plus, where does anyone think the food companies get the supplements that are added to the prepared foods?

it is easier to give the responsibility for health to these corporations, though, if you really trust them.

[sratiug]

Honestly, there's so many claims and so much BS out there that started with Pauling that I really can't make any definitive statement other than, "yeah, we need it." But how much is good? I don't know. From my trusty Merck Manual (home edition,) the synopsis is this:

"Vitamin C Deficiency: Vitamin C is essential for the formation of connective tissue. It helps the body absorb iron and recover from burns and wounds. Pregnancy, breastfeeding, overactivity of the thyroid gland, various kinds of inflammation, surgery and burns all can significantly increase the body's requirements for vitamin C and the risk of a deficiency." Then they go on to list scurvy, bleeding gums, weakness, fluctuations of BP and heart rate.

"Vitamin C Excess: 500 to 10,000 mg have been recommended by some to prevent the common cold, schizophrenia, cancer, hypercholesterolemia and artheriosclerosis. However, these recommendations have little to no scientific support. Doses higher than 1,000mg/day cause diarrhea, kidney stones and changes in the menstrual cycle. Some people who stop taking high doses develop rebound scurvy."

Their listed Daily Adult Requirement is 60mg. So, my opinion is that you adjust that number within reason, for any particular condition you might have. But, if you drink fortified juice and eat the right foods, there's probably no real reason for supplementation.

Ever take a vitamin and notice how it changes the color of your urine? Yep, that's all the water soluble vitamins that you just paid a fortune for being flushed down the toilet.

So when I don't drink enough and my urine is yellow it's because I absorbed vitamin c from the air, I suppose?

Isn't the purpose of anti-oxidant vitamins to rid the body of contaminants? What better way than urination?

[amy31416]

So when I don't drink enough and my urine is yellow it's because I absorbed vitamin c from the air, I suppose?

Isn't the purpose of anti-oxidant vitamins to rid the body of contaminants? What better way than urination?

Believe whatever you like, it's your money to blow. If you take 1,000 mg of vitamin C, and your body can only use 40 mg, then 960 mg of that supplement is promptly processed by the kidneys and excreted in your urine.

If you think it magically detoxifies you. Fine. On the other hand, there's more than a bit of evidence that it does some damage on the way out, as mega-doses of anything would.

Vitamin E is an anti-oxidant, you going to mega-dose on that too?

[yongrel]

So when I don't drink enough and my urine is yellow it's because I absorbed vitamin c from the air, I suppose?

Isn't the purpose of anti-oxidant vitamins to rid the body of contaminants? What better way than urination?

Don't come cryin' to me when your kidneys explode.

[tmosley]

There are many different sources for urine color. From Wikipedia:

Yellowing/light Orange may be caused by removal of excess B vitamins from the bloodstream.
Certain medications such as rifampin and pyridium can cause orange urine.
Bloody urine is termed hematuria and is a symptom that requires medical attention. (This could also be a sign of a bladder infection, which also requires medical attention)
Dark orange to brown urine can be a symptom of jaundice or Gilbert's syndrome.
Black or dark-colored urine is referred to as melanuria and may be caused by a melanoma.
Reddish or brown urine may be caused by porphyria.
Flourescent Yellow / Greenish urine may be caused by taking dietary supplemental vitamins
Dark yellow urine is usually caused by dehydration.