Minnesota Chaos! Stealing delegates

[acroso]

"Voting results disputed in Minnesota conventions"




BLAINE, Minn. – Ron Paul supporters shook things up in at least three of Minnesota's congressional district conventions yesterday when they captured nearly all of the national delegates and alternates for the Republican National Convention this fall.

There was controversy at Minnesota's 6th Congressional District Convention. The district covers part of the Twin Cities metro area and extends to the west and into nearby St. Cloud, Minn. Paul supporters were accused of dirty tricks.

"They hijacked the convention," said Jeff Johnson who serves as Minnesota's Senate District 15 co-chairman.

Two out of three national delegates elected were Ron Paul supporters and all three of the alternates supported Paul. After the election results were announced at the convention, they were immediately disputed when it was discovered that the candidates had agreed to support John McCain in pre-screening questions.

"I had people coming up to me saying that they wanted to ensure that Ron Paul has a chance to speak at the convention," said Andy Aplikowsky, the vice chairman of the 6th District in Anoka County, "These people hid what their intentions were and that's deceptive."

Prior to the voting, candidates running to be national delegates were screened by a nominating committee and asked two questions.

"We asked them if they were Republican and then asked if they would support John McCain at the national convention" said Aplikowsky. "They had the option to answer yes, no, or maybe."

The answers to these questions were then presented to the body of congressional delegates to take into consideration in the voting process. When it was discovered the elected national delegates were Paul supporters despite saying they would support McCain, the convention erupted in debate.


A motion was made to ensure the delegates supported McCain at the national convention.

"I moved that we bind the national delegates and alternates to what they told the nominating committee which is what was reported to the voters," said Aplikowsky.

A heated debate lasting more than an hour followed the motion. Eventually, the motion passed by a slim margin, but not without harsh words and harsh exchanges.

The feeling among many of the congressional delegates who voted was that the Paul supporters had been dishonest. Ron Baert, one of the elected national delegates and a Ron Paul supporter disagreed.

"I don't recall the exact wording of the question (about McCain), and so I wanted to clarify it," he said. "So I said that the endorsement hasn't even taken place yet, but that if McCain were endorsed I would support him, however I did not say I would vote to endorse him at the national convention."

Could the wording of the pre-screening questions have been confusing? Aplikowsky who helped in the process didn't think that was likely.

"There were 98 people who went through the questions and it was explained very thoroughly at the time the nominations report was given to the voters," he said.

The 98 candidate names, and their answers to the pre-screening questions were displayed on an overhead projector as well as on a handout available to voters.

Some Paul supporters wanted to know why the pre-screening questions were asked in the first place, and Baert said he and other Paul backers felt intimidated. So what was the purpose of the questions?

"The intention was to identify people and who they were going to support," said Aplikowski. "It wasn't to keep out Ron Paul supporters but to present that information to the body of delegates to vote on, which is one of the purposes of the nominating committee."

The RNC was contacted by phone while the debate was going on, and, according to party rules, the national delegates must endorse John McCain or their votes won't count. That left some angry.

"If they intended to bind candidates to vote for the presumptive nominee (John McCain), they should've announced this at the beginning," said Paul supporter Jim Sutton. "This convention has never bound delegates to a candidate before. It was a torpedo job against us!"

The Ron Paul Revolution also struck Minnesota's 4th and 5th districts where Paul supporters swept the votes for national delegates and alternates. Minnesota Chairman Ron Carey said that the delegates' decision to not unite behind McCain only hurts the Republican party.

Paul has remained in the presidential race despite the fact McCain has now earned enough delegates to become the Republican nominee for president.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=60907
Edit/Delete Message (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60907)

[soapmistress]

hijacked.

expext to see this word more and more...

here come the homegrowns :/

[Banana]

I truly hope that the RP supporters there didn't lie about voting for McCain- this could have been avoided if they simply stated that they would only support those who supports conservative values r something like that.

[acroso]

The questionaire was non-specific. Vote for McCain at the national convention or the state? It never said. Also will you endorse McCain to be a delegates...sure why not. This all means nothing.

If they had had a questionaire that said will you for sure vote McCain at the national convention...then that would be dishonest, but they didn't.

Besides...doesn't it all depend on what the meaning of "is" is?

[LibertyIn08]

As I said, I was worried this would happen.

Perhaps the best step would be to tell the media, if asked, that you followed the convention rules to the letter. Beyond that, that is all you can do.

Keep playing the game fair, and being positive with the media. There is more ground support for what the delegates are doing than the media or stalwarts think.

[coyote_sprit]

I truly hope that the RP supporters there didn't lie about voting for McCain- this could have been avoided if they simply stated that they would only support those who supports conservative values r something like that.

They specifically said do you support McCain. Almost like a vowel of loyalty.

[TruePatriot44]

I was at the 2nd Congressional District in Minnesota last week and a lot of people I talked to have an intense disliking of John McCain. Its not just Paul supporters, but Romney supporters as well (McCain only got 20% in Minnesota, Romney 40%, huckabee 20%, and Paul 20%). People up here don't want to unite behind a liberal republican.

[szczebrzeszyn]

I wonder what is the result of Minnesota caucuses

[acroso]

"Do you pledge to give McCain Primae Noctis rights to your wife?"

[TruePatriot44]

They also can't bind delegates at the congressional district conventions.

Minnesota GOP Constitution:

http://www.gop-mn.org/info.cfm?x=2&pname=seltype&pval=2&pname2=tdesc&pval2=Constitution

C. In compliance with the rules of the Republican National Convention, no delegate or alternate may be an automatic delegate or alternate. Each delegate or alternate must be elected by his/her respective convention. No delegate to the Republican National Convention shall be bound by party rules or by state law to cast his/her vote for a particular candidate on any ballot at the convention except that the state convention may bind the delegates whom it elects to the National Convention of the Republican Party on the first ballot to vote for a candidate for the office of President of the United States, unless they be released by said candidate.

[amy31416]

"The intention was to identify people and who they were going to support," said Aplikowski. "It wasn't to keep out Ron Paul supporters but to present that information to the body of delegates to vote on, which is one of the purposes of the nominating committee."


To put it bluntly: BULLSHIT

[Paul Revered]

[QUOTE=acroso;1388406]"Voting results disputed in Minnesota conventions"



[URL="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60907"]
BLAINE, Minn. – Ron Paul supporters shook things up in at least three of Minnesota's congressional district conventions yesterday when they captured nearly all of the national delegates and alternates for the Republican National Convention this fall.
/QUOTE]This is great news.

[PlzPeopleWakeUp]

nt

[Banana]

The questionaire was non-specific. Vote for McCain at the national convention or the state? It never said. Also will you endorse McCain to be a delegates...sure why not. This all means nothing.

If they had had a questionaire that said will you for sure vote McCain at the national convention...then that would be dishonest, but they didn't.

Besides...doesn't it all depend on what the meaning of "is" is?


They specifically said do you support McCain. Almost like a vowel of loyalty.

Hmm, two different stories, just like in the article.

:confused:

[Thomas_Paine]

"Do you pledge to give McCain Primae Noctis rights to your wife?"

I really laughed out loud when I read your post. Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of this Communist style oath of allegiance to the Candidate who didn't even win the popular vote in Minnesota!

[acroso]

Banana- would you like some cheese with your whine?

Seriously, join the IRS if you want scrutinize people's questionnaires.

[nbhadja]

Wait a minute can some one please clarify this.

So the secret RP delegates said they would vote for McCain so they were chosen to go to state. They then were chosen. How in the world did the people then find out that they were really RP supporters in disguise and that they would vote for RP in the state convention???

[AdamT]

What hypocrites!! The corrupt GOP pull all kind of dirty tricks in Louisiana, Nevada, marginalize RP, attack him for being conservative, laugh at him at the debates, try to keep him out, etc and now they try to say we're pulling "dirty tricks".

How entirely laughable. And pathetic.

Way to to RP supporters in MN!!!!

"I think I feel a change in the wind says I.....Take what you get, give nothing back!" - Pirates of the Carribean

[ResistTemptation]

It will be interesting to see how the GOP plays this when confronted with their own rules, but regardless, just make sure you vote for the REAL conservative at national no matter what kind of "bound" title these fake republicans give you.

[soapmistress]

Wait a minute can some one please clarify this.

How in the world did the people then find out that they were really RP supporters in disguise and that they would vote for RP in the state convention???

I was wondering the SAME thing!

[BKom]

The Grand Old Party has been pulling dirty trick after dirty trick to deny us delegates. And they are p.o.'d that WE'RE playing dirty tricks?

F them. I've been in the party longer than them, so F them all, and the elephants they rode in on.

And if I hear one of those neocon bastards slobber all over Ronald Reagan one more time, I think I'll never stop vomiting.

[LEK]

To put it bluntly: BULLSHIT

Have to agree.
Is this what normally happens - you have to divulge who you will vote for to be picked as a delegate? If this is normal practice - why have a vote for delgates? Why even bother with a convention and all of these rules? Just throw a big party instead.

Bizzaro-world.

[xd9fan]

people....whatever we do....there will be a fight.

The neocons have pushed to far......its really only a matter of time.

[ButchHowdy]

First we must define what the meaning of "YES" is . . .

[Badger Paul]

It is against Minnesota party rules to bind delegates to a candidate, ergo the move in CD - 6 is illegal.

The important thing to remember is CD 6, CD 5 and others around the country, not in Minnesota, are coming under Paul's control. These districts are what elect a good chunk of the delegates to Republican National Convention. Take control of these districts and you've got control of the party.

[Michael Landon]

They pulled the same shit with us at the Congressional District 8 in Minnesota a couple of weeks ago only they made a motion ahead of time that stated we were to announce who we supported during our delegate speech. Some of us tried to say we supported McCain and some of us stated we were Ron Paul supporters. Regardless of which way we went it didn't help, there were too many McCain supporters and they out voted us.

- ML

[hawks4ronpaul]

I support John McCain...in his right to keep his own paycheck without an income tax.
I support John McCain...in his right to keep his own paycheck without a Federal Reserve inflation tax.
I support John McCain...in his right to vote for Ron Paul in November.



the national delegates must endorse John McCain or their votes won't count. That left some angry.

This would prevent a +1 for RP but still deny a +1 for McCain.


http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

[jasonhlasvegas2008]

keep fighting. that's all we can do.

[Zera]

All these people who say they are bound to vote for McCain... This could all be changed if they just change the state's rules at the state convention, no? The more and more I see that in these articles, the more I think not for some reason. God damn it.

[mcgraw_wv]

Guys...

We're not going to be handed delegates, I even think of the states were we did really bad in and didn't come close to winning, it doesn't seem right to "STEAL" the state... I'm all for it where we can, but it may cause a blowback to the cause. However I think we should keep trying, becuase what this will do is this year, the GOP is seeing what is in store for them. Modivated, energized, fresh, young, talented on internet for organization...

They are seeing that the organizational powers we have are going to crush them come next time it is time to play this game... Every day is a building block, every fight, win or lose, is a win as we are putting the incumbent ideas to task...

just keep fighting... Expect the worse, hope for the best.

[FindLiberty]

:-> This thread put a smile on my face...

Hijacked!

What's next, airport screeners for all GOP meetings?

[hawks4ronpaul]

:-> This thread put a smile on my face...

Hijacked!



SAT analogy of the day:

Saying that RP folks are "hijacking" the GOP is like saying that Americans are "hijacking" the United States.

Behave well but prepare to be called a thief no matter what you do.


http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

So the secret RP delegates said they would vote for McCain so they were chosen to go to state. They then were chosen. How in the world did the people then find out that they were really RP supporters in disguise and that they would vote for RP in the state convention???

They got ahold of someone's slate that morning. The slate also created a problem in another district yesterday when a mole on the email list printed a smear piece about Ron Paul, listing our candidates on the bottom. Now THAT's playing dirty.

For our next two congressional district conventions and state convention, we won't be giving out the slate until right before time to vote.

[hawks4ronpaul]

They got ahold of someone's slate that morning. The slate also created a problem in another district yesterday when a mole on the email list printed a smear piece about Ron Paul, listing our candidates on the bottom. Now THAT's playing dirty.

For our next two congressional district conventions and state convention, we won't be giving out the slate until right before time to vote.
Everyone,

We do not need cyanide capsules in event of capture yet but please guard your gear.

Thank you.
http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

[Banana]

Banana- would you like some cheese with your whine?

Seriously, join the IRS if you want scrutinize people's questionnaires.

Insulting isn't exactly proven to make friends....

That said, I was genuinely curious as to why there were two sides of the story, and my theory was that they had worded questionnaire in an ambiguous way as to make it a endorsement of McCain or something like that, but I wasn't there so I asked for some details.

If nothing else, it would behoove everyone else to know what they should watch out should they pull the same tricks at another convention, no?

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

I was genuinely curious as to why there were two sides of the story, and my theory was that they had worded questionnaire in an ambiguous way as to make it a endorsement of McCain or something like that, but I wasn't there so I asked for some details.


There was no questionnaire. It would have been nice if it had been in ink with a written response. Or recorded. Or anything except the word of various people.

I watched at least one person inform the nominations committee that they had the wrong answer down for her. They said, yeah, that can easily happen, or something to that effect. A really sloppy method all around if they were going to use it to bind votes.

[acroso]

McCain is a left wing lunatic. I really don't care if we steal his delegates since he's not a conservative.

[Signzit]

Does MN. use Diabold?
If so, what Delegates?
You mean an estimate of Delegate?

And how do you steal the minds of Delegates?
That's what They should be afraid of... minds being changed at the Convention.

No Quarter!

[Bruno]

:-> This thread put a smile on my face...

Hijacked!


+1!

But may I suggest that this wasn't a hijack, but a backjack - as in taking our country back. :cool:

Way to go MN - adding to the list of recent state victories! You are all awesome and inspiring! :D

[orlandoinfl]

GOP is scared shitless.

[PlzPeopleWakeUp]

nt

[rbu]

Great job Minnesotans!

[Hook]

There was no questionnaire. It would have been nice if it had been in ink with a written response. Or recorded. Or anything except the word of various people.

I watched at least one person inform the nominations committee that they had the wrong answer down for her. They said, yeah, that can easily happen, or something to that effect. A really sloppy method all around if they were going to use it to bind votes.

Hey Scribbler, haven't seen you in a while.

[torchbearer]

It looks like we are a bunch of Ninjas crashing through the windows at these conventions...
They can't see where we come from... and then - BAM!
Full slate of delegates....
Your convention is belong to us

[TER]

It looks like we are a bunch of Ninjas crashing through the windows at these conventions...
They can't see where we come from... and then - BAM!
Full slate of delegates....
Your convention is belong to us

ROFL!

[Dustancostine]

They got ahold of someone's slate that morning. The slate also created a problem in another district yesterday when a mole on the email list printed a smear piece about Ron Paul, listing our candidates on the bottom. Now THAT's playing dirty.

For our next two congressional district conventions and state convention, we won't be giving out the slate until right before time to vote.

Keep up the good work up there Marianne.

--Dustan

[Dustancostine]

It looks like we are a bunch of Ninjas crashing through the windows at these conventions...
They can't see where we come from... and then - BAM!
Full slate of delegates....
Your convention is belong to us

LOL, but instead of black cloth mask, we wear TINFOIL mask. :D

[torchbearer]

LOL, but instead of black cloth mask, we wear TINFOIL mask. :D

Actually those people who wear Tinfoil hats have been vindicated.
See this article: The Army's Telepathic Ray Gun (http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2008-03/army%E2%80%99s-telepathic-ray-gun)
http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/article_image_large/files/articles/raygun.jpg

http://cr4.globalspec.com/PostImages/200709/TinFoil_DB52B2F1-0E7F-A983-F0F9D799A20B06C8.jpg

[acroso]

I wonder how many delegates we'll end up with for the convention itself.

Would be AWESOME if we ended up with more delegates tha Huckabee or Romney.

Sounds like a long-shot, but it would increase the llikelihood he'd get to speak.

[Join The Paul Side]

Guys...

We're not going to be handed delegates, I even think of the states were we did really bad in and didn't come close to winning, it doesn't seem right to "STEAL" the state... I'm all for it where we can, but it may cause a blowback to the cause. However I think we should keep trying, becuase what this will do is this year, the GOP is seeing what is in store for them. Modivated, energized, fresh, young, talented on internet for organization...

They are seeing that the organizational powers we have are going to crush them come next time it is time to play this game... Every day is a building block, every fight, win or lose, is a win as we are putting the incumbent ideas to task...

just keep fighting... Expect the worse, hope for the best.

I call bullshit. The party was stolen from us in the first place. If we can steal it back then more power to us.

[TruthAtLast]

It looks like we are a bunch of Ninjas crashing through the windows at these conventions...
They can't see where we come from... and then - BAM!
Full slate of delegates....
Your convention is belong to us

haha.


Out of curiosity. is anyone keeping tally of these wins in each district / county? How many delegates and alternates we are sending to each state convention?

[Conza88]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/020415.html

He asked me point blank if the RP people were trying to throw the election to the Democrats and struck me as generally, a little paranoid.

- CALL him a conspiracy theorist!!!! haha

[mcgraw_wv]

I call bullshit. The party was stolen from us in the first place. If we can steal it back then more power to us.

Bull shit on what exactly about my post?


The parties have changed many a time since it started... This is what happens, this has happened many times. If you check out history, the republicans once were the party of the common blue collar worker.

Parties change, but no of them change overnight, and none of them do it willingly.

[teshuah]

according to what I have been reading from CD-6 goers, not everyone was asked the same question regarding McCain and it was worded in such a way to cause confusion.

The article from OP is full of propaganda regarding the question issue.

Also, the vote to 'bind the delegates' to their original response was done after the delegates were elected and many had left. I wonder how many RP supporters had left at this point too and if they would have stayed if the vote to find would have passed.

The MN GOP is running scared. They are seeing Freedom, Liberty, Constitution loving citizens stepping up to the plate and being voted in. They know their days are numbered and are trying to do everything they can to hold onto their jobs.

[Banana]

according to what I have been reading from CD-6 goers, not everyone was asked the same question regarding McCain and it was worded in such a way to cause confusion.

The article from OP is full of propaganda regarding the question issue.

Aha! That explains why there were two different sides of story!

Looks like the lesson here should be to group together when asked questions like this and verify that everyone was asked the same questions. Also, don't forget that one can call for a recess to review the questionaire or something. Alternatively, you could ask the chair to read the questionaire aloud. Something like that will help prevent them from asking different questions as they go from one to next delegates and help us know what is being asked of us.

[Lovecraftian4Paul]

As in other cases across the country, we're doing best where the local GOP is weakest. The MN GOP was nearly knocked into dormancy by the 2006 Mid-term elections. They lost tons of legislative seats, a Congressional district, the Senate race, and Gov. Pawlenty only won re-election by a hair (mostly by virtue of the Dem candidate being so horrid). If the GOP is weakened from suffering a number of blows, then there seems to be a case for Ron Paul supporters making significant gains.

This is a fine example of why McCain must not win the November election, if he takes the GOP nomination. If McCain loses, especially by a significant margin, we might be in a good position to pounce. Though that isn't to say there's no merit in working on parallel projects, like third party efforts and PACs. The latter two may even be instrumental in smashing McCain's attempt to take the White House.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

Hey Scribbler, haven't seen you in a while.

That's because I've been up to mischief, as you can tell. :D

[BenMuldowney]

What hypocrites!! The corrupt GOP pull all kind of dirty tricks in Louisiana, Nevada, marginalize RP, attack him for being conservative, laugh at him at the debates, try to keep him out, etc and now they try to say we're pulling "dirty tricks".

How entirely laughable. And pathetic.

Way to go RP supporters in MN!!!!

"I think I feel a change in the wind says I.....Take what you get, give nothing back!" - Pirates of the Carribean

AdamT is someone that gets it... good post.

[teshuah]

More writing from the trenches of CD6

ETA: Drew Emmer has always been kind to Ron Paul supporters in his blog, so please return the favor

http://wrightrepublican.blogspot.com/2008/04/6th-cd-convention-redux-chilly-with.html

an excerpt:

At least five out of six folks(3 delegates/3 alternates) elected to represent the Sixth Congressional District are Ron Paul enthusiasts. I say .at least 5/6 because I'm not completely convinced that Michele Bachmann isn't at least a closet Ron Paul supporter. I know Michele will support John McCain at the National Convention. 2 of 3CD 6 national delegates and 3 of 3 alternates hail from the Ron Paul camp.

Having Andy Aplikowski, a long time CD 6 loyal activist, offer the motion to bind delegates after the fact, while certainly within his rights as a member of the delegation, just didn't look good. It looked like sour grapes over getting beaten in the national delegate election. And it looked as though it was orchestrated by MNGOP party officers. Not behavior conducive to creating the kind of Kumbaya we need to pull this part y together and win in November. Aplikowski's motion was enough to cause certain party faithful to take a "Liar, Liar, Pants On Fire" posture when the Paulites nearly swept the election. The charge of lieing had to do with the answers published by the nominating committee on all five Paul supporters. Each said "Yes" to the question "Will you support John McCain at the national convention?". Aplikowski's motion was to bind them to vote for McCain. The motion prevailed. Would the Paul supporters have supported McCain at the national convention without the 6th CD convention binding them to do so? Only the shadow knows.

To report after the fact (see Andy Barnett's piece in Worldnet Daily News) that the RNC would remove any delegate not pledged to support McCain is perhaps the stupidest thing I could imagine in this frame. The stupidity is in "after the fact". This could have been disclosed in advance of the election. The rules could have been more clear. This is one dust-up we could have avoided if we wanted to. Our Nominating Committee Chair stated that the RNC rules were not yet published with regard to the national convention. To have those same rules cited an hour later when the proverbial dung hit the oscillator is troubling.

[wowabunga]

Until pressure "from the people" finally arrises... expect much more of the same. Will it be too late then... will we even try to wake and educate the population ???

[Quick]

How can that make you say "I will vote for McCain" and if you don't say that, you don't get a chance to be part of the delegate process?

[Sandra]

They can't. That would be the equivalant of voting for the nominee at state convention level. This is clearly not allowed according to RNC rules and precisely why this rule was made.

[Gilby]

I was at this convention.


Wait a minute can some one please clarify this.

So the secret RP delegates said they would vote for McCain so they were chosen to go to state.

They were apparently asked if they support McCain. The specific question asked to them was questionable to me. Were they specifically asked if they would choose McCain at the National Convention? Or was it simply if they would support him if he is the nominee? I could be a supporter of McCain, Romney, Ron Paul and Huckabee, and answer the question asked about McCain as a yes. But, unless they were specifically asked if they would vote for McCain at the National Convention, the preference order would be unknown.

During the debate of the motion, it was made clear by many that the question asked was questionable as to what it meant. One of the elected delegates stated they clarified their answer to the nominating committee to say that there is no nominee yet, but if McCain is the nominee, he would support McCain.

The motion was to bind the elected delegates to voting for what they told the nominating committee. Obviously that's in question. The motion did succeed at a vote of 101 to 89. From memory, at the beginning of the day there were 327 seated delegates.


They then were chosen. How in the world did the people then find out that they were really RP supporters in disguise and that they would vote for RP in the state convention???

Who knows, but reading the flyers handed out, it was clear to me that they were Ron Paul supporters. Mention of working on the Goldwater campaign were on both and on one there was mention to abolishing the Federal Reserve.


That said, I was genuinely curious as to why there were two sides of the story, and my theory was that they had worded questionnaire in an ambiguous way as to make it a endorsement of McCain or something like that, but I wasn't there so I asked for some details.

If nothing else, it would behoove everyone else to know what they should watch out should they pull the same tricks at another convention, no?

In my opinion, don't answer such a question to the nominating committee or be very clear what you mean and what they mean by the question. Then also make sure that the explanation of what it means when presented by to the convention is clear, and if different than understood by any of the candidates, then it needs to be pointed out by someone before voting. I missed the exact explanation given to us by the committee.

In our congressional convention, the Ron Paul supporters could have been listed as "no" or "maybe" on the list in support of McCain and we still would've won the same number of seats.

[Sandra]

I think the main purpose of the questionairre was to fool those delegates new to the process into thinking they HAD to vote for McCain.