Let's put up an initiative on every state's ballot for 2010

[nate895]

Since it is too late to file, in my state at least. So we can actually do something to further the movement besides electing a couple people to office here and there in 2010, we can actually get the people to consider an initiative to be placed on the ballot and approved or rejected. If we can get this passed, the people will finally realize that they aren't alone and they should no longer vote for candidates who reject the idea of liberty.

I'd propose this text, but feel free to make suggestions to change it if necessary:

ALARMED BY the Federal Government's constant usurpations of power it was not delegated,

CONVINCED our founders would find the current state of the Federal Government's overreaching to be at or near that of the British at the time of our Revolution,

DEPLORING the fact that Congress passes, on a regular basis, laws the blatantly violate or pervert the US Constitution,

DEEPLY DISTURBED our state and the court system have refused to act to protect the rights of the people, as well as the Constitution, and

GUIDED BY the principles of the American Revolution, we, the people of the state of (insert state here),

Urge the US Congress to cease passing unconstitutional laws,

Proclaim any law passed by Congress in violation of the Constitution, as judged by a panel of citizens, elected for such a purpose, should be null in this state,

Instruct our state's executive provide for the execution of the previous clause,

Call upon other states to follow the lead of this one and enact similar resolutions, and

Invite other states who have enacted this resolution, or one similar, to meet in convention to determine ways to fight Congress's usurpations.

Note, CAPS means preambulatory clauses, italics means operative clauses.

[Banana]

While this is great idea, the wordings sounds more like a resolution than a law, and I doubt this would fly in Washington state (maybe in other states?). Initiatives should be something that can be placed in statutory law books... If we reworded it so it was a law with penalties for failure to obey the law, then this would go.

I would 100% sponsor this.

[TruthAtLast]

While this is great idea, the wordings sounds more like a resolution than a law, and I doubt this would fly in Washington state (maybe in other states?). Initiatives should be something that can be placed in statutory law books... If we reworded it so it was a law with penalties for failure to obey the law, then this would go.

I would 100% sponsor this.

OMG - i agree with Banana. :D

[nate895]

While this is great idea, the wordings sounds more like a resolution than a law, and I doubt this would fly in Washington state (maybe in other states?). Initiatives should be something that can be placed in statutory law books... If we reworded it so it was a law with penalties for failure to obey the law, then this would go.

I would 100% sponsor this.

That is true, but how do we make it a law. It is pushing an idea that cannot be written into law in many states because they would first need to amend the Constitution, such as my state. What we could do is call for a convention of the states, and then we can get this resolution passed there.

[american.swan]

If we reworded it so it was a law with penalties for failure to obey the law, then this would go.

I would 100% sponsor this.

How about if a law passes that is unconstitutional AND and OUR Senators and House members voted for it, they are automatically bard from running again for at least one term and must appear before a state court for a punishment of community service.

IF they are later elected again and again vote for unconstitutional law, they will be bard for life from running for ANY position within the said state and must spend 4 years in state jail.

[Banana]

American Swan is closer to the idea.

I think the idea that may be most palatable to most people would be that a vote for unconstitutional law would be rendered null and void, and entered into a registry publicly available. This way, it's still up to people to decide to vote out the officials without any coercion.

But this may be not the best solution, since we already have a mechanism that does this: Supreme Court. :rolleyes:

Another idea would be to require that any new laws proposed must first pass a scrutiny and be declared constitutional before it can be bought for a vote.

Yet another idea: Immediate expulsion from the legislative body when the court finds a law to be unconstitutional. Mind, no imprisonment or fines and this is not to reflect negatively on anyone. They're just out of work and someone will take their place.

Maybe someone can work something that's workable?

[nate895]

American Swan is closer to the idea.

I think the idea that may be most palatable to most people would be that a vote for unconstitutional law would be rendered null and void, and entered into a registry publicly available. This way, it's still up to people to decide to vote out the officials without any coercion.

But this may be not the best solution, since we already have a mechanism that does this: Supreme Court. :rolleyes:

Another idea would be to require that any new laws proposed must first pass a scrutiny and be declared constitutional before it can be bought for a vote.

Yet another idea: Immediate expulsion from the legislative body when the court finds a law to be unconstitutional. Mind, no imprisonment or fines and this is not to reflect negatively on anyone. They're just out of work and someone will take their place.

Maybe someone can work something that's workable?

The first suggestion is basically what I had suggested, with the inclusion of a database 5% of the voters will look at (the ones who actually care).

The second idea is bad as it leaves it up to the courts, which the establishment controls. We must find a way to circumvent them.

[Banana]

Yeah, ideally I wanted the law to be proved constitutional prior to its enactment but wasn't sure how it would work out. Not to mention that this would be a bit hypocritical because we're basically saying every laws is guilty until proven innocent (e.g. constitutional).

[nate895]

Yeah, ideally I wanted the law to be proved constitutional prior to its enactment but wasn't sure how it would work out. Not to mention that this would be a bit hypocritical because we're basically saying every laws is guilty until proven innocent (e.g. constitutional).

Well, that is basically the way the founders set up the country, the government needs to have actually been delegated the power, not merely to not have been denied them that power.

[nate895]

bump

[Banana]

FWIW, only 24 states and D.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative#Initiative_in_the_United_States) allows for statewide initiative....

As for that idea of national initiative I floated in my thread.... (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=128368) Apparently, Mike Gravel had the same idea by bypassing the traditional 2/3 majority amendment in both houses with a Constitution Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states_constitution#Amendments)

If we can get this idea on the ballot of 24 states, it should give the rest a strong incentive to ask "Why not our state, too, and heck the Federal states, too?"

[nate895]

FWIW, only 24 states and D.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiative#Initiative_in_the_United_States) allows for statewide initiative....

As for that idea of national initiative I floated in my thread.... (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=128368) Apparently, Mike Gravel had the same idea by bypassing the traditional 2/3 majority amendment in both houses with a Constitution Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states_constitution#Amendments)

If we can get this idea on the ballot of 24 states, it should give the rest a strong incentive to ask "Why not our state, too, and heck the Federal states, too?"

I oppose a federal ballot initiative, as I oppose democracy, I favor a republic. I say we put political pressure on the governors and legislatures of the states to call conventions to enact this resolution in each state.

[Banana]

Well, the only reason why I think we need a national initative is simply to get some reins on Congress for certain acts that they just can't do it themselves.

Payraise is an example. Everyone is for a payraise but nobody is going to vote for a paycut on their own salaries. The unpopular war is another example.

Mind, I'm not advocating that we can pass just about anything; only what can be constitutional and applies to Federal level *only*. Mike Gravel may have something more like a direct democracy, which I would be opposed to anyway.


I'd think that the best approach is to get those ideas on the ballot first then we can pressure governors and legislators. It's probably easier to get signatures than to convince them.

[sratiug]

The Fully Informed Jury Association.
http://www.fija.org/

The jury can nullify unconstitutional laws or unjust prosecution of constitutional laws.

Jury Protection for Second Amendment Brochure http://www.fija.org/docs/brochure_perfect_copyfor_web.pdf

You could pass initiatives making it illegal for the court to instruct jurors, and allow information such as these brochures to be given to jurors or prospective jurors. Or the initiative could specify an instruction to the jury as to their ultimate right to determine the validity of both the law and the prosecution of the law.

[nate895]

Well, the only reason why I think we need a national initative is simply to get some reins on Congress for certain acts that they just can't do it themselves.

Payraise is an example. Everyone is for a payraise but nobody is going to vote for a paycut on their own salaries. The unpopular war is another example.

Mind, I'm not advocating that we can pass just about anything; only what can be constitutional and applies to Federal level *only*. Mike Gravel may have something more like a direct democracy, which I would be opposed to anyway.


I'd think that the best approach is to get those ideas on the ballot first then we can pressure governors and legislators. It's probably easier to get signatures than to convince them.

Well, we shouldn't give them enough money to be able to pay for a pay raise.

[pinkmandy]

Paper ballots, transparent elections. We need integrity in our elections before anything imo.

[Banana]

Paper ballots, transparent elections. We need integrity in our elections before anything imo.

So make an initiative for one if your state allows this then? That's kinda the point of the initiative, no?

[pinkmandy]

So make an initiative for one if your state allows this then? That's kinda the point of the initiative, no?

I'm moving to NH in 3 weeks and I'll be checking into how to get something done up there in the electronic precints. I already checked it out in VA (where I am now) and we need to lobby the legislature for it- the backing of the parties would help tremendously.

[Banana]

Well, we shouldn't give them enough money to be able to pay for a pay raise.

Perhaps so, but that's only one fix- there are several other issues that Congress may be a bit uncomfortable to bring themselves upon it: campaign financing, cronyism/corruption (especially pushing impeachment), stupid wars/interventions. Such national initiative would give everyone an extra route to yank back the reins before the government as whole run wild. Heck, the initiatives doesn't have to pass to have effect; if it fails by close margin, everyone in the Congress will have to think long and hard what this means for their re-election.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Maybe there's a better way to do this and this could be simply unnecessary, I don't know.

[cindy25]

removal of the link between driver's licenses and draft registration

[Elwar]

I'd love to pin my state's budget to a single dollar amount...say, the past year's budget.

Let's say your state budget is $50 billion and it's in the state constitution to never spend more than that...

It would put a huge fire up the ass of every politician in that state to address inflation.

In 10 years that budget might be enough to pay for a toaster.