Just had a conversation with my father about the election...

[ionlyknowy]

He said, "Lets just hope that Hillary gets elected so Mccain will win the general election"

I couldn't believe my ears... After all of this time indoctrinating him to Ron Paul and his views....

So then I said, we should hope that none of them get in office. Then I said MCcain is a warmongerer and wants to go to war and invade other countries.

Then my father says, "Well MCcain is good because he wont pull the troops from Iraq because if that happened Iraq would be a huge mess, with lots of lives lost"

Then I said, well we pulled out of Vietnam and nothing really bad happened.

(Then I was about to go into how over 700,000 Iraqis have been killed since the beginning of the war)

Then he said "we didnt pull out of Vietnam, we were forced out of Vietnam"
(Implying that it is not like Iraq)

But he then said.. "I have to go, I am busy right now, but you can call me later"



So my question to you guys is this... did we pull out of Vietnam? Or were we forced out? I know that it is in debate still... with some saying the Tet Offensive made us pull out... So what is the truth of this matter?

[Zera]

I believe the U.S. withdrew. Saying we were forced out just makes it seem that he doesn't want to admit defeat.

Defeat is better than meaningless deaths.

[IntruderII]

The U.S. withdrew. The Tet Offensive hurt the opinion of everyone's view on the war, but it wasn't enough to militarily defeat the U.S.

[hawks4ronpaul]

The US won the 1968 Tet Offensive, agreed to withdraw US combat troops in a draw by 1973, and did not intervene during the 1975 invasion but withdrew US embassy staff.


http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

[constitutional]

He said, "Lets just hope that Hillary gets elected so Mccain will win the general election"

I couldn't believe my ears... After all of this time indoctrinating him to Ron Paul and his views....

So then I said, we should hope that none of them get in office. Then I said MCcain is a warmongerer and wants to go to war and invade other countries.

Then my father says, "Well MCcain is good because he wont pull the troops from Iraq because if that happened Iraq would be a huge mess, with lots of lives lost"

Then I said, well we pulled out of Vietnam and nothing really bad happened.

(Then I was about to go into how over 700,000 Iraqis have been killed since the beginning of the war)

Then he said "we didnt pull out of Vietnam, we were forced out of Vietnam"
(Implying that it is not like Iraq)

But he then said.. "I have to go, I am busy right now, but you can call me later"



So my question to you guys is this... did we pull out of Vietnam? Or were we forced out? I know that it is in debate still... with some saying the Tet Offensive made us pull out... So what is the truth of this matter?

Ask him, whats our objective in Iraq?

You should teach him the policy of non-intervention rather than if going into a one specific country was "wrong or right."

[klamath]

We pulled out of vietnam. Congress cut the funds and we couldn't go back when the north invaded the south. We were never militarily defeated in vietnam. The tet offence was a major loss for the viet cong. As far as establishing a stable country we failed as we have in Iraq. Only the Iraqi people can decide when they want a stable country, not us.

[ionlyknowy]

Ask him, whats our objective in Iraq?

You should teach him the policy of non-intervention rather than if going into a one specific country was "wrong or right."

I dont think that he believes in intervention... But he like most MSM brainwashed individuals, believe that we have put Iraq in a situation that if we leave then Iraq will implode and become a killing field etc...

I was trying to make the connection between Iraq and Vietnam, so he will realize that if we pull out of Iraq, then just like Vietnam, it wont be as bad as he thinks.

In my opinion, it may be a tad worse than Vietnam was due to the fact that in Iraq you dont have just 1 military might that is poised to take over. But I am just speaking in passing, and dont really know much about the relationship between Vietnam and Iraq because I didnt live through Vietnam.

[ionlyknowy]

What is really shocking, is I have never seen a sign for MCcain, AND have never met a MCcain supporter.....

I think that now that MCcain is the "presumed nominee" the brainwashed Republicans will vote Republican just because they are Republican.

A self perpetuating dilemma...

My father made these statements at the table at his "supper club"... meaning a large group of baby boomer Christian Republicans... Probably former Huck supporters.

My father told me that once one of their friends asked who they were supporting and he said Ron Paul, then the guy gave him a bad look and said he was supporting Huck.

So if my father is now touting MCcain, then his group, including the above Huck guy, probably are sheepishly supporting MCcain now... SOOO frustrating.

They dont see the similarities to the election of Bush...

[gerryb]

the truth..

Winter Soldier

http://www.wintersoldierfilm.com/
http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier

[lasenorita]

I won't compare Vietnam and Iraq, but I do want to address your father's comment about Iraq becoming a huge disaster if we pull our troops out now. I posted this on another thread but I thought it might be relevant here as well.

Here is an excerpt of a short interview with independent journalist Dahr Jamail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahr_Jamail):


KZ: What would be the key false impressions that Americans have about Iraq and how would you correct them?

DJ: That the occupation has an end date, that if the U.S. leaves things will worsen in Iraq, and that by staying they are preventing the civil war from widening. The occupation, as per the current U.S. strategy supported by all of the mainstream politicians on either side of the isle, has no end date. Period. Drawing down the number of troops, if-when it happens, has nothing to do with moving towards a total withdrawal until the policy is changed.

The bogus idea that if the U.S. leaves things will worsen is both inherently racist and ignorant. Iraq is where western civilization began, and the Iraqi people are more than capable of sorting out the problems within their country. In addition, the majority of those current problems were caused by and continued to be propagated by the foreign occupation forces. When the occupation ends, thus begins the first step towards solving all of the problems within Iraq. The rhetoric that the U.S. is preventing a worsening of the civil war by staying is also erroneous. Via arming Sunnis and politically supporting Shias, along with facilitating the death squads, the U.S. presence in Iraq only exacerbates the sectarian tensions they helped to foster in the first place. Again, total U.S. withdrawal will be the first step towards reconciliation and peace.

Source: The Catastrophic Military Occupation of Iraq is Rarely Described Accurately in the U.S. Media (http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m37674&hd=&size=1&l=e)

I'd also like to point out this article from AP: In Basra, violence is a tenth of what it was before British pullback, general says (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/15/africa/ME-GEN-Iraq-Basra.php). Our presence in Iraq is what motivates the Iraqis to strap bombs on themselves and blow us up. And this same hatred is not limited to Iraq --- research shows that the war has increased terrorism sevenfold worldwide (http://www.motherjones.com/news/featurex/2007/03/aftermath.html). So much for the idea of winning hearts and minds through the barrel of a gun. :rolleyes:

[Thomas Paine]

The fewer Iraqis that survive the U.S. pullout from Iraq means that is just fewer potential third world competitors for U.S. jobs in 20 years.