Has anyone invited Kucinich to the March?

[ItsTime]

I think it would be good to invite Kucinich and any other freedom loving patriot. I think it would be a good idea to show we are building a coalition and that freedom is bi-partisan. It would also help with the total numbers.

(im cross posting this in the march forum, but no one is looking there so I will post it here as well.)

[CurtisLow]

I think it would be good to invite Kucinich and any other freedom loving patriot. I think it would be a good idea to show we are building a coalition and that freedom is bi-partisan. It would also help with the total numbers.

(im cross posting this in the march forum, but no one is looking there so I will post it here as well.)

+1

A congressman with balls! :eek::eek:

[kevman657]

Sorry, but Kucinich is not a freedom loving patriot. He is a socialist; someone who does NOT believe in the free market system. That goes against a big part of RP's beliefs, it's like being for the war or against it.

[Ex Post Facto]

Sorry, but Kucinich is not a freedom loving patriot. He is a socialist; someone who does NOT believe in the free market system. That goes against a big part of RP's beliefs, it's like being for the war or against it.

I hate when people exclude someone as a patriot based on a position of concerning one issue. Listen to Kucinich defend the constitution 2 days ago, before going into secret closed door session. It gets good at about 7 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byeC0h1Tyk

[Kotin]

Sorry, but Kucinich is not a freedom loving patriot. He is a socialist; someone who does NOT believe in the free market system. That goes against a big part of RP's beliefs, it's like being for the war or against it.

just shut up.

he believes in the Constitution. and thats enough for me.

we can debate the rest.

[kevman657]

I hate when people exclude someone as a patriot based on a position of concerning one issue. Listen to Kucinich defend the constitution 2 days ago, before going into secret closed door session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byeC0h1Tyk

Concerning one issue? The economy is not like abortion, it's what holds our nation together. Yes, he is against the war and is for civil liberties. Guess what, there are many democrats like that. What makes him different? He's an honest democrat, just as Ron Paul is an honest Republican.

But overall, the Democrats platform is way off. Transfer payments, government run health care, welfare states...I've taken too many economic classes to just ignore this "one issue" when I know how bad these things are for the economy.

And I'm sure this will help Ron Paul Republicans in there elections...I can just see the headlines now: "Ron Paul Republicans support socialist Dennis Kucinich".


just shut up.

he believes in the Constitution. and thats enough for me.

we can debate the rest.


There are many different ways to interpret the constitution. In almost every issue, except the war and SOME civil liberties, RP and Dennis do not agree. Dennis is no "Dr. No", he votes for plenty of things that create more government spending. Mainly, the issue is over the line in the constitution called "the general welfare". He believes that means the government should make sure EVERYONE is happy...no way. I respect his opinions and agree if humans were perfect a socialist government would work, but that's just not the case.

[Ex Post Facto]

just shut up.

he believes in the Constitution. and thats enough for me.

we can debate the rest.

Exactly. He is willing to put america first and his issues second. For this reason, he is a patriot. If more people would do the same, Kucinich or Paul types would be sitting in the white house.

[kevman657]

Exactly. He is willing to put america first and his issues second. For this reason, he is a patriot. If more people would do the same, Kucinich or Paul types would be sitting in the white house.

Wow. So you think entitlement programs, gun control, socialized health care, and raising taxes represents a patriot? The constitution doesn't allow for any of these things, HOW CAN YOU SAY HE FOLLOWS IT?

This goes against everything Ron Paul is for. I must be at the wrong forum board...


Rated 29% by NTU, indicating a "Big Spender" on tax votes. (Dec 2003)
Rated 0% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance.
Raise taxes for guaranteed, single payer, universal care. (May 2003)
Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record. (Dec 2003)


I'm just dying to know where I'm wrong.

[Ex Post Facto]

Wow. So you think entitlement programs, gun control, socialized health care, and raising taxes represents a patriot? The constitution doesn't allow for any of these things, HOW CAN YOU SAY HE FOLLOWS IT?

This goes against everything Ron Paul is for. I must be at the wrong forum board...


Rated 29% by NTU, indicating a "Big Spender" on tax votes. (Dec 2003)
Rated 0% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance.
Raise taxes for guaranteed, single payer, universal care. (May 2003)
Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record. (Dec 2003)


I'm just dying to know where I'm wrong.

You aren't wrong on that. I agree little with Kucinich's issues. I also, don't agree with every Ron Paul issue. But that is what makes America great. Both Kucinich and Ron Paul represent honest people working within the constitution to accomplish their issues. As long as you put the constitution first in development of policy and law then you can debate the rest.

So yes, you are on the right forum. Just don't think everyone here fits into a template of all of Ron Paul's issues. Agree to disagree.

[mmink15]

Sorry, but Kucinich is not a freedom loving patriot. He is a socialist; someone who does NOT believe in the free market system. That goes against a big part of RP's beliefs, it's like being for the war or against it.

This is a popular response,but this is why I disagree and think Kucinich should be a part of this. The friendship and cooperation of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich over the past few years shows us that differing opinions can co-exist without creating frictions that divide us rather than unite us. This is a good message to spread because if we are going to take back the party by voting in better candidates we need to show the masses that the system can still be saved by voter participation, and that means politicians getting along with those on the other side of the aisle while disagreeing in principle. Otherwise voter apathy takes over and nothing is accomplished. A speech by Dennis Kucinich may not resonate with members of this forum the way a speech from Ron Paul does, but respect has been earned on the civil liberties front by Kucinich and he would be a wonderful addition to any rally that proposes the maximizing of our civil liberties.

[Ex Post Facto]

This is a popular response,but this is why I disagree and think Kucinich should be a part of this. The friendship and cooperation of Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich over the past few years shows us that differing opinions can co-exist without creating frictions that divide us rather than unite us. This is a good message to spread because if we are going to take back the party by voting in better candidates we need to show the masses that the system can still be saved by voter participation, and that means politicians getting along with those on the other side of the aisle while disagreeing in principle. Otherwise voter apathy takes over and nothing is accomplished. A speech by Dennis Kucinich may not resonate with members of this forum the way a speech from Ron Paul does, but respect has been earned on the civil liberties front by Kucinich and he would be a wonderful addition to any rally that proposes the maximizing of our civil liberties.

Yes...it is a Freedom Rally after all. Not a RP Rally.

[pcosmar]

From his own site.

Kucinich is currently drafting legislation that would ban the purchase, sale, transfer, or possession of handguns by civilians. A gun buy-back provision will be included in the bill.

Chairman Kucinich will hold the first Congressional hearing on gun laws since the Virginia Tech massacre. This bipartisan hearing will evaluate incompleteness in the federal database used for checking the criminal and mental health records of gun purchasers, as well as the inconsistencies in state compliance with federal gun purchase laws. The hearing will also address inconsistencies among the states in their supplemental gun prohibition laws.
The Assault Weapons Ban


Congressman Kucinich is an advocate for the Assault Weapons Ban. He believes the ban should not have been allowed to expire in the 108th Congress. He was a co-sponsor of HR 2038, a bill to reauthorize the Weapons Ban.

He does NOT protect or respect civil liberties.

[kevman657]

You aren't wrong on that. I agree little with Kucinich's issues. I also, don't agree with every Ron Paul issue. But that is what makes America great. Both Kucinich and Ron Paul represent honest people working within the constitution to accomplish their issues. As long as you put the constitution first in development of policy and law then you can debate the rest.

So yes, you are on the right forum. Just don't think everyone here fits into a template of all of Ron Paul's issues. Agree to disagree.

No, he does not put the constitution fist. FOR THE THIRD TIME: Entitlement programs, socialized health care, IGNORING THE 2ND AMD, raising taxes, and going agaisnt a free market economy is not following the constitution. If you think it is, I suggest you read not just what the constitution says, but the reason it was written the way it was. The founding fathers understood the dangers of human corruption so they wanted to limit government power.

Your not going to stop hearing from me as long as you state your lame argument of, "He believes in the constitution". Well, he sure goes against almost everything it says.

[ItsTime]

Ron Paul has had nothing to but good things to say about K and they are friends. I am not saying we have to agree with him. Our founding fathers disagreed on many many many issues but liberty and freedom bound them together.

[kevman657]

Ron Paul has had nothing to but good things to say about K and they are friends. I am not saying we have to agree with him. Our founding fathers disagreed on many many many issues but liberty and freedom bound them together.

Right, and I am saying he doesn't believe in liberty and freedom. FREEDOM means I have the right to NOT pay for someone else's health care. FREEDOM, means I have the right to protect myself. FREEDOM, means I shouldn't have to be forced to support entitlement programs that sacrifice the strength of our economy.


These are things Dennis does not believe in. I have heard Ron talk about Dennis, and he mainly says they are someitmes alone on voting "no" on certain bills (war on iraq), so naturally they have met and talked with each other on many occasions. Other than that, I'm sure if you opened a debate on the constitution, Dennis and Ron would clearly be divided.

[pcosmar]

Lets see what else is on his site.,


On May 1, 2001 Congressman Kucinich, on behalf of the Progressive Caucus, hosted a Universal Health Care Briefing in collaboration with the Congressional Black Caucus and Hispanic Caucus. Congressman Kucinich brought together 12 members of Congress, former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, as well as numerous other doctors, nurses, health care advocates, and patients. As part of the briefing, the Physicians for a National Health Program presented a proposal of a national, single-payer health plan.


Washington, Oct 18, 2007 - Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), released the following statement after voting to override President Bush's veto on SCHIP this afternoon:

“I voted to override the President’s veto. In the previous SCHIP vote, the Democrats left out up to 600,000 children of immigrants, so I voted against the bill. The President left out all children, so of course I voted to override,” Kucinich said.

“The bill’s failure to provide coverage for legal immigrants is wrong. All children deserve health care coverage. Health care is a right, not a privilege. The denial of a life-saving service based on an arbitrary length of citizenship is simply wrong.

Though he has some good positions, he is still stuck in the socialist mindset.
I would like to see a change of direction rather than reforming socialism.

[ItsTime]

I think many of you are forgetting unless we do something and do something fast, issues of entitlements and gun ownership are going to be the least of our worries.

The one goal we should be setting our mark on is getting rid of the fed to avoid Ron Pauls prediction of global DEPRESSION in 2 years. Then what do you think will happen to your rights?

[pcosmar]

I think many of you are forgetting unless we do something and do something fast, issues of entitlements and gun ownership are going to be the least of our worries.

The one goal we should be setting our mark on is getting rid of the fed to avoid Ron Pauls prediction of global DEPRESSION in 2 years. Then what do you think will happen to your rights?

We will be forced to exercise them.
The depression is already here.
Martial law concerns me.

[kevman657]

I think many of you are forgetting unless we do something and do something fast, issues of entitlements and gun ownership are going to be the least of our worries.

The one goal we should be setting our mark on is getting rid of the fed to avoid Ron Pauls prediction of global DEPRESSION in 2 years. Then what do you think will happen to your rights?

Right, and Dennis hasn't said much about the economy at all. http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issues/

Where is it? What about a balanced budget? What about the Fed???


You are supporting my argument...

[RonPaulFanInGA]

he believes in the Constitution. and thats enough for me.


Except for that pesky second amendment.

Paul wants to shrink the federal government. Kucinich wants to expand it. Paul wants less federal departments. Kucinich wants more federal departments (department of peace). Paul wants lower taxes and less spending. Kucinich wants more taxes and more spending by the federal government. And so on and so forth.

I'm tired of a good guy like Ron Paul getting lumped in with Kucinich. The media does it all the frickin' time, usually putting their names in the same sentence as if they're the same, just because they both oppose the Iraq war. Opposing the Iraq war and opposing anti-civil liberties legislation like the PATRIOT act are about the only political views they share. They are two very different people. Kucinich is not one of us, he's just a nut.

No Kookcinich!

[MikeSmith]

Except for that pesky second amendment.

Paul wants to shrink the federal government. Kucinich wants to expand it. Paul wants less federal departments. Kucinich wants more federal departments (department of peace). Paul wants lower taxes and less spending. Kucinich wants more taxes and more spending by the federal government. And so on and so forth.

I'm tired of a good guy like Ron Paul getting lumped in with Kucinich. The media does it all the frickin' time, usually putting their names in the same sentence as if they're the same, just because they both oppose the Iraq war. Opposing the Iraq war and opposing anti-civil liberties legislation like the PATRIOT act are about the only political views they share. They are two very different people. Kucinich is not one of us, he's just a nut.

No Kookcinich!

I don't like calling someone a nut at any time, but when we are the minority it's especially ridiculous.

According to Gallup:

-Americans are pro-choice (67 percent)
-Americans support the Geneva Conventions with regards to torture (57 percent)
-Americans don't want the government snooping in their bank and internet records (67 percent)
-Americans want the USA Patriot Act changed or eliminated entirely (81 percent)
-Americans support protecting the environment at the expense of economic growth (55 percent)
-Americans believe that global warming is happening (86 percent)
-Americans believe that it's the government's responsibility to provide health care (69 percent)
-Americans support the decriminalization of marijuana (55 percent) and support the legalization of medical marijuana (78 percent)
-Americans think we've lost the war in Iraq (64 percent)
-Americans are opposed to attacking Iran (68 percent, according to a CNN Poll)
-Americans support labor unions (60 percent)
-Americans want government funding of embryonic stem cell research (56 percent)
-Americans believe that free trade hurts American workers (65 percent)
-Americans believe rich people and corporations aren't paying enough taxes (66 and 71 percent respectively)
-And overall party affiliation? 54 percent of Americans are Democrats (with leaners) and 39 percent are Republicans (with leaners).

Apparently, Kucinich represents most of the the majority views of the American people.

[FreeTraveler]

Here go the Socialists again, claiming that because Kookcinich is against the war and the patriot act that he's one of the white hats.

What part of FREEDOM don't you idiots understand? Pro gun-control, pro universal health care... are YOU willing to FORCE me to pay for YOUR healthcare? How does that define FREEDOM??

[MikeSmith]

Here go the Socialists again, claiming that because Kookcinich is against the war and the patriot act that he's one of the white hats.

What part of FREEDOM don't you idiots understand? Pro gun-control, pro universal health care... are YOU willing to FORCE me to pay for YOUR healthcare? How does that define FREEDOM??

If you're referring to what I posted, I was just pointing out that it's moronic to call someone a nut when you hold the minority view points... If you want people to change, you have to educate them... don't call them "nuts" or "socialists" genius

[pcosmar]

Apparently, Kucinich represents most of the the majority views of the American people.
And the majority of Germans elected a NAZI and supported him.

WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY
This is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

[MikeSmith]

And the majority of Germans elected a NAZI and supported him.

WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY
This is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

I never said we were a democracy... However, the person who gets the most votes generally wins... Al Gore didn't, but in general... so, it seems like educating those you disagree with would serve you better than completely dismissing anyone who has opposing view points... Here's what I said,

If you're referring to what I posted, I was just pointing out that it's moronic to call someone a nut when you hold the minority view points... If you want people to change, you have to educate them... don't call them "nuts" or "socialists" genius

[jlaker]

I hate when people exclude someone as a patriot based on a position of concerning one issue. Listen to Kucinich defend the constitution 2 days ago, before going into secret closed door session. It gets good at about 7 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byeC0h1Tyk

QFT

[FreeTraveler]

If you're referring to what I posted, I was just pointing out that it's moronic to call someone a nut when you hold the minority view points... If you want people to change, you have to educate them... don't call them "nuts" or "socialists" genius

Sure... and GWB is just misguided too. :rolleyes:

The day Socialists first started calling themselves "Progressives" then took over the term "Liberal" I'm sure there were people saying "oh, they just need education!" Instead of calling them out, they got away with redefining the language, and with that redefinition began the era of "NewSpeak" we call political correctness.

It's time to start calling a spade a spade, and a Socialist a Socialist. If you think it's not "politically correct" then too bad. Whether you like it or not, Dennis Kuchinich IS a Socialist and IS NOT anybody I want involved in my government.

[j650]

Dennis Kucinich does not believe in liberty. He wants to take away all of your guns and force you to give the fruits of your labor away through the barrel of a gun. Dennis Kucinich is no better than Barack Obama or John McCain. I hate seeing threads about him around here because he doesn't represent anything we believe in. The less Dennis Kucinich's we have around here, the better.

[MikeSmith]

Sure... and GWB is just misguided too. :rolleyes:
A political leader is different than someone who cares more about Britney Spears than politics


The day Socialists first started calling themselves "Progressives" then took over the term "Liberal" I'm sure there were people saying "oh, they just need education!" Instead of calling them out, they got away with redefining the language, and with that redefinition began the era of "NewSpeak" we call political correctness.

It's time to start calling a spade a spade, and a Socialist a Socialist. If you think it's not "politically correct" then too bad. Whether you like it or not, Dennis Kuchinich IS a Socialist and IS NOT anybody I want involved in my government.

Regardless, the majority of the American people hold very liberal viewpoints. The Republicans are going to get SLAUGHTERED in November... If you truly believe that there is no possibility for change, then maybe you should move to Liberty Island.

[FreeTraveler]

According to Gallup:

-Americans believe that global warming is happening (86 percent)
-Americans believe that it's the government's responsibility to provide health care (69 percent)
-Americans support labor unions (60 percent)
-Americans want government funding of embryonic stem cell research (56 percent)
-Americans believe that free trade hurts American workers (65 percent)
-Americans believe rich people and corporations aren't paying enough taxes (66 and 71 percent respectively)

So? All this proves is that most Americans are lemmings, believing what the MSM tells them and not bothering to use the meager thought processes they were born with. Majority "belief" being substituted for facts is what got things in they shape they are in.


Apparently, Kucinich represents most of the the majority views of the American people.
Talk about damning with faint praise. Do you want a leader who deals in facts, or one who deals in what people want, regardless of the facts?

[FreeTraveler]

Regardless, the majority of the American people hold very liberal viewpoints. The Republicans are going to get SLAUGHTERED in November... If you truly believe that there is no possibility for change, then maybe you should move to Liberty Island.

Let the people move to Socialist Island, then. I intend to retake this country and reestablish the principles it's founded on.

The majority of the population supported Hitler too, you know?

[Ex Post Facto]

Again, agree to disagree on issues. More than half of RP's platform would not fly with congress even if he was elected president. More than half of Kucinich's platform would not pass if he were elected president.

Preserve the basic civil liberties, and roll of government (remembering opinions may differ) and you get a forum for honest debate. Perhaps this discussion about Kucinich has drifted to what the constitution stands for, more than the actual issue at hand. Freedom is popular. This is what brings us together. Issues only divide us. A Freedom Rally is just that. Restore the constituional rights of citizens, no matter your issue. Each person has their own thing they consider to be important. Once honest open discussions take place there may be room for people to have a bit of everything. Remeber also, the constitution is a Federal document that is supposed to loosely tie together states in a common purpose. To give a platform for a national direction under transparency.

Is Kucinich a patriot? I would say he is an honest representative that has a certain point of view that differs from my own point of view. With honest open give and take arguement, compromises can be made.

[FreeTraveler]

With honest open give and take argument, compromises can be made.

Compromise with evil is the way this country has crept toward Socialism. Any politician who wants to take away my right to self-defense is evil, regardless of what other positions he may take.

[pcosmar]

I never said we were a democracy... However, the person who gets the most votes generally wins... Al Gore didn't, but in general... so, it seems like educating those you disagree with would serve you better than completely dismissing anyone who has opposing view points... Here's what I said,

This is what I said.

The 2nd amendment is a civil liberty.
Social welfare is Theft.
Non intervention I can agree with him, but not many of his other positions.
Perhaps he can be educated. One can hope.


Lets see what else is on his site.,


Though he has some good positions, he is still stuck in the socialist mindset.
I would like to see a change of direction rather than reforming socialism.
I can not support him.
His views are NOT Ron Paul's views or Message.
Restore the Constitution.
Limit Government.

[nbhadja]

I don't like calling someone a nut at any time, but when we are the minority it's especially ridiculous.

According to Gallup:

-Americans are pro-choice (67 percent)
-Americans support the Geneva Conventions with regards to torture (57 percent)
-Americans don't want the government snooping in their bank and internet records (67 percent)
-Americans want the USA Patriot Act changed or eliminated entirely (81 percent)
-Americans support protecting the environment at the expense of economic growth (55 percent)
-Americans believe that global warming is happening (86 percent)
-Americans believe that it's the government's responsibility to provide health care (69 percent)
-Americans support the decriminalization of marijuana (55 percent) and support the legalization of medical marijuana (78 percent)
-Americans think we've lost the war in Iraq (64 percent)
-Americans are opposed to attacking Iran (68 percent, according to a CNN Poll)
-Americans support labor unions (60 percent)
-Americans want government funding of embryonic stem cell research (56 percent)
-Americans believe that free trade hurts American workers (65 percent)
-Americans believe rich people and corporations aren't paying enough taxes (66 and 71 percent respectively)
-And overall party affiliation? 54 percent of Americans are Democrats (with leaners) and 39 percent are Republicans (with leaners).

Apparently, Kucinich represents most of the the majority views of the American people.

Majority of the Public also thinks Obama, Hillary are anti-war. Guess what? The public are a bunch of morons who base their views off of the MSM.
They NEVER look at the root cause of a problem, only the symptoms. You have to look at WHY the people believe those views. You will find that they have no clue about how to fix the country.

The US constitution and Kucinich's views do not go hand in hand. Dennis goes against the constitution by wanting a big government.
Big government= Bad and EASILY SUSPECTABLE to corruption.

Btw, the majority of Germans wanted Hitler in power. Majority of Americans voted for Bush. Etc.

[Ex Post Facto]

Compromise with evil is the way this country has crept toward Socialism. Any politician who wants to take away my right to self-defense is evil, regardless of what other positions he may take.

Compromise has been hi-jacked. You should never give up your beliefs. What compromise means to me is that you attempt to find common ground on a particular issue, and only vote for those common ground issues. If our congress understood compromise, they would make less laws and only pass laws in which everyone agreed.

A compromise situation should be approached knowing each persons opinions and positions matter. You say "I want ice cream for everyone." The other person says "I like bannana splits." So each of the parties agree on ice cream but aren't set on what type. This is where the debating begins. What has happened in congress is a distorted form of compromise. Where I give you something, you give me something. Conceeding your beliefs is wrong. Finding solution and common ground that is a win/win is compromising. Giving someone something they want which goes against what you want isn't compromise, it's the easy way to get what you want.

[MikeSmith]

Everyone arguing with me is missing the point entirely... I wasn't even taking a position on whether Kucinich should be invited to the March or not. I was simply stating that we should be talking and discussing instead of yelling and dismissing since our view points are in the minority... We need to bring a larger segment of the population to our way of thinking. We're not going to do that by calling them socialist nuts...

[Truth Warrior]

I'm having a very hard time in coming up with some rational reason why a socialist collectivist would be invited to a Freedom Rally. :confused:

[uncollapse]

Kucinich=Obama=Hillary.

[Ex Post Facto]

Everyone arguing with me is missing the point entirely... I wasn't even taking a position on whether Kucinich should be invited to the March or not. I was simply stating that we should be talking and discussing instead of yelling and dismissing since our view points are in the minority... We need to bring a larger segment of the population to our way of thinking. We're not going to do that by calling them socialist nuts...

Yeah I agree. Nobody should be called a nut.

[Flash]

Ignoring or censoring people for their views is the same thing we hate about FOX.

Lets atleast invite gravel, kucnich, and nader to the march!

[pcosmar]

LEFT VS. RIGHT: THE ILLUSION OF OPPOSITES
Analysis © 2007 - 2008 by G. Edward Griffin. Updated January 28

Would you rather be a Neoconservative or a Progressive? That is a trick question. The trick is in the fact that, although there may be differences between the rhetoric and short-term agendas of these groups, their long-term goals actually are the same. They may differ over how to fight a war in the Middle East but not over the right of the President to wage such a war empowered by the UN instead of Congress. They may differ over what kind of speech should be forbidden ("subversive" speech vs. "hate" speech, for example) but not over the right of the government to forbid it. They may differ over how fast to bankrupt the nation to provide benefits for its citizens but not over the assumption that providing benefits is what governments are supposed to do. They disagree over tactics, timing, and style, but not objectives. They fight for dominance within the New World Order, but they work together to build it. That is because both groups have embraced the underlying ideology of global collectivism.


What are the elements of collectivism that are common to all of these seemingly opposite forces? Collectivists on the so-called Left and Right agree that:

1. Rights are derived from the state;
2. The group is more important than the individual;
3. Coercion is the preferred method to bring about reform;
4. Laws should be applied differently to different classes;
5. Providing benefits (redistributing wealth) is the proper role of government.

These are the core principles held by collectivists in their quest to remold mankind to their hearts desire. The main disagreement among them is over how those principles should be applied. They do not realize that it's not the application of those principles, but the principles themselves that cause injustice, scarcity, and freedom's demise. History has already shown this truth in the form of despotism under Nazism (the so-called Right) and Communism (the so-called Left). It is sad that intelligent people with knowledge of this history still cling to the myth that they are opposites when it is so clear they are merely different manifestations of the same ideology.
Read it all,
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=left_right&refpage=issues

[Ex Post Facto]

I think this has turned into a debate of: I'm more of a Ron Paul than you.

[nbhadja]

I think this has turned into a debate of: I'm more of a Ron Paul than you.

No it's turned into a debate of whether socialism is freedom. Obviously it is not.

[FreeTraveler]

I'm having a very hard time in coming up with some rational reason why a socialist collectivist would be invited to a Freedom Rally. :confused:

Theme Post of This Thread!
That goes for Kuchinich, Gravel, and Nader, as well as McCain, Clinton, Obama, Edwards, or almost any other politician. We have very few friends in Washington, and if you believe otherwise you will find your efforts co-opted and credited to Dr. Paul's philosophical opposites.

[ItsTime]

WATCH THIS! About 1:10 Ron Paul speaks very well of K.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJcnoDfFWhM


Let me make it clear I HATE his social programs I HATE the fact he wants to take our guns away. But we need allies, because they come few and far between right now. The things K wants to do WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Uni health care is a fucking pipe dream. And K is not the ones we need to worry about taking our guns away THE COURTS take our guns away

[Ex Post Facto]

WATCH THIS! About 1:10 Ron Paul speaks very well of K.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJcnoDfFWhM


Let me make it clear I HATE his social programs I HATE the fact he wants to take our guns away. But we need allies, because they come few and far between right now. The things K wants to do WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Uni health care is a fucking pipe dream. And K is not the ones we need to worry about taking our guns away THE COURTS take our guns away

This is exactly what I've been saying. And for that matter what Ron Paul is saying. You have to find compromise. Ron Paul lays it out in this video explaining, If he could get his way with cutting spending, there would be money for social programs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9a4hNeIRo&NR=1

[kevman657]

This is exactly what I've been saying. And for that matter what Ron Paul is saying. You have to find compromise. Ron Paul lays it out in this video explaining, If he could get his way with cutting spending, there would be money for social programs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9a4hNeIRo&NR=1

Right, but why should Dennis speak at a freedom rally? We are trying to promote freedom and Dennis believes in socialism. Whether or not he claims he follows the constitution doesn't matter, he sure doesn't follow it the way the founding fathers intended. It is no different than Bush when he goes to war without a declaration, that is not allowed by the constitution. Neither are Dennis' social programs. Dennis is like Ron in that he is a disgruntled honest politician who is upset with the direction their party has been going...so he's a true Democrat. Sorry, but the democrats do not have a freedom platform.

[Ex Post Facto]

Right, but why should Dennis speak at a freedom rally? We are trying to promote freedom and Dennis believes in socialism. Whether or not he claims he follows the constitution doesn't matter, he sure doesn't follow it the way the founding fathers intended. It is no different than Bush when he goes to war without a declaration, that is not allowed by the constitution. Neither are Dennis' social programs. Dennis is like Ron in that he is a disgruntled honest politician who is upset with the direction their party has been going...so he's a true Democrat. Sorry, but the democrats do not have a freedom platform.

So only the 5% of us that voted for Ron Paul are deserving of Freedom? The democrats do not have a Freedom platform? United we stand divided we fall? Do Republicans not have a Freedom platform? Or, is it just a portion of RP supporters that are allowed to speak about their vision of Freedom?

[james1906]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Make coalitions whenever you can. RP does in Congress all the time.

[Ex Post Facto]

From Granny Warriors Website. http://www.grannywarriors.com/rally.htm

America 1st
Issues 2nd
Party 3rd


Friends: NOW is the time for us to unite and come together, whether our primary cause is peace, labor, truth, human rights, American sovereignty, impeachment, environmental, voting rights, civil liberties, the Constitution or sound fiscal policy....or all of the aforementioned.

We are manipulated and overpowered only when we allow those in power to segment and divide us. In fact, we have much more in common than we may think. After all, we are concerned citizens and people of principle. Strength comes via numbers and the forging of sound strategic alliances by, and between, activist groups.

We will be updating you with additional information. And no, we are not just asking you to participate and to help spread the word. We are asking you to consider that WE must unite and WE must demonstrate the power of the people....we need representation and participation from every "cause" and "belief set" in order to send a loud and clear message that WE ARE RECLAIMING OUR POWER as Americans.

It is time to send a message to those in authority: WE may have different priorities, we may be of every persuasion, but we are all Americans and we are sick and tired of unrepresentative government. We are tired of watching the fundamental promise and potential of American life subverted by profiteers and self-serving interests. And we are sick and tired of the few pretenders, and their supplicants, who posture that their agendas are ours.

UNITED we will stand...and so will the America we love.

APRIL 15, 2008 MASS RALLY IN DC

TO TAKE BACK AMERICA

[pcosmar]

The Agenda of the socialist/collectivist is incompatible with Freedom. It is incompatible with Ron Paul's message.
It is what we are fighting against.
Even if Kuchinich has one or two small issues that seem to be similar or gives lip service to the Constitution does not make him a Freedom Fighter.
He is a Socialist.

[Rangeley]

So only the 5% of us that voted for Ron Paul are deserving of Freedom? The democrats do not have a Freedom platform? United we stand divided we fall? Do Republicans not have a Freedom platform? Or, is it just a portion of RP supporters that are allowed to speak about their vision of Freedom?
Everyone deserves freedom, but not everyone is advocating it. The real question should be, is he advocating it?

[Ex Post Facto]

Everyone deserves freedom, but not everyone is advocating it. The real question should be, is he advocating it?

In the sense that Ron Paul advocates it, No. Which explains why I'm voting Ron Paul. However, Kucinich speaks to constitutional rights and liberties. For what he has to bring to the table, he should be invited. Everyone claiming to be American that believes in the constitution should be invited. We can not do this as a divided group. We must be united in the principles, whether our view on those principles differ.

[ItsTime]

Ok so maybe we should ask Ron Paul if we should invite him? My guess is he would say yes. But I am not him, so maybe we should ask?


Everyone deserves freedom, but not everyone is advocating it. The real question should be, is he advocating it?

[Rangeley]

Well, are we talking about just inviting him to attend, or to speak? If its the former, I do not see any problem at all (I was thinking that it was the latter at first, but it appears I was wrong.) Getting people who dont entirely agree with us to attend could bring them in and change their minds. Even if we don't change Kucinich's mind, maybe the people who would attend because he is attending could end up finding themselves in agreement with us.

[ItsTime]

To speak. And the thought was to get his supporters to come. We have a lot in common with their supporters. After all, Ron Paul and K are friends.


Well, are we talking about just inviting him to attend, or to speak? If its the former, I do not see any problem at all (I was thinking that it was the latter at first, but it appears I was wrong.) Getting people who dont entirely agree with us to attend could bring them in and change their minds. Even if we don't change Kucinich's mind, maybe the people who would attend because he is attending could end up finding themselves in agreement with us.

[Rangeley]

In that case, it presents a notable problem. Sure, he has his areas where he advocates following the Constitution, but at the same time he has areas where he is not doing this. This can be said about many, many other people who are right in areas and wrong in others. Fred Thompson, I suppose, was a proponent of defending state's rights, Huckabee defended the rights of the newborn. I am absolutely for working with people when there are common areas of agreement, but it is an entirely different issue when it comes to whether to invite these people to speak. I would have to say in this case, absolutely not. It totally sends the wrong message to throw people up there who only selectively follow the Constitution - this is not what we are advocating. We are advocating fully following it, and should only have speakers who are behind this message.

[FreeTraveler]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would neither attend nor promote any event where ANY Socialist is making a speaking appearance. The Socialist agenda is diametrically opposed to Freedom, and I consider Socialists mortal enemies, as THEY have declared it's OK to use the threat of government force to steal from me. Socialists, BY DEFINITION, believe they are justified in robbing you at the point of a gun that you're not allowed to possess to defend yourself.

How anyone who believes in Freedom can support a Socialist is beyond me.

[Ex Post Facto]

I'm confused here. Are there people here advocating that all social programs are evil, even when they promote a common good? Or is it we just differ in opinion on what common good is?

[pcosmar]

How anyone who believes in Freedom can support a Socialist is beyond me.

They are confused as to what the Message is.
They don't understand the dangers posed by collectivists and their agenda.
They can be educated, but have to chose that themselves.

[ItsTime]

I guess Ron Paul is confused and needs to be educated....


They are confused as to what the Message is.
They don't understand the dangers posed by collectivists and their agenda.
They can be educated, but have to chose that themselves.

[FreeTraveler]

I'm confused here. Are there people here advocating that all social programs are evil, even when they promote a common good? Or is it we just differ in opinion on what common good is?

Define the common good. Okay, now are you personally willing to stick a gun in my ribs, and demand that I support funding your common good, or is it OK for me to opt out of paying for it?

If the first, you're a thief. Allowing the government to rob me in your name to pay for your program is no different than wielding the gun yourself.

If the second, it's not really a government project, and should be handled by private organizations.

THAT'S why Socialism and Freedom are diametrically opposed. It's SO SIMPLE TO SEE!

[Rangeley]

I'm confused here. Are there people here advocating that all social programs are evil, even when they promote a common good? Or is it we just differ in opinion on what common good is?
I cant speak for others, but I strongly believe social programs are a good idea. Where I differ with someone like Kucinich is that I recognize that the Constitution does not authorize the government to do these social programs - rather, they are to be handled by the American people, or, perhaps, the states. Despite him supporting such initiatives out of, what I see at least, a genuine care for the country, it simply is not following the constitution to have such programs under the government.

[Ex Post Facto]

Define the common good. Okay, now are you personally willing to stick a gun in my ribs, and demand that I support funding your common good, or is it OK for me to opt out of paying for it?

If the first, you're a thief. Allowing the government to rob me in your name to pay for your program is no different than wielding the gun yourself.

If the second, it's not really a government project, and should be handled by private organizations.

THAT'S why Socialism and Freedom are diametrically opposed. It's SO SIMPLE TO SEE!

Roads, infrastructure, defense budgets, governmental salary expenses, research. I'm not advocating taxing income. Fee's paid to support these programs could help, and yes you should be able to opt out. Like if you don't drive, you don't pay registration which funds the roads. Each fee has a purpose. If you go to a state park you pay a fee to get you in...those fees support the park operation and allow for sanitation etc.

[Knightskye]

I hate when people exclude someone as a patriot based on a position of concerning one issue. Listen to Kucinich defend the constitution 2 days ago, before going into secret closed door session. It gets good at about 7 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byeC0h1Tyk

Hahaha, "barnyard expletive."

Inviting Kucinich would be a good idea. I'm sure he could show up if it's in D.C. - where he works. And his supporters would have an incentive to show up as well.

[pcosmar]

From his site.

The United States should fully fund efforts to eradicate hunger by fully funding our
allocation to the UN World Food Program, whose work saves countless lives in more
than 80 countries through school feeding programs, nutrition programs for HIV/AIDS
sufferers, refugee food relief, and many other vital tasks.
My money should be taken from me by force for this?


Swords into Plowshares
President Eisenhower once observed: "Every gun that is made, every warship
launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger
and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." This year our nation will spend
over $360 billion on the Pentagon, but barely more than $1 million on food aid for the
world's hungry. It is time the U.S. set an example for the world by proposing a 15% cut
in the military budget to help meet pressing social needs, including hunger, both abroad
and at home. I have proposed a bill to establish a Department of Peace to mediate
international conflicts, negotiate arms control agreements, and promote nonviolence, so
that other nations can devote resources to the fight against hunger, not the arms race.
on the needs of people and communities.
And what about Thought Crimes?

We need federal legislation to prosecute hate crimes, which tend to be the most violent
form of crime in American society. The signing of federal hate crime legislation will send
a message of unity through our nation. America will not tolerate any citizen's human
rights being denied.

[jbuttell]

Call anyone you want a nut - it's fine by me... though I don't think it helps your reputation much.

Chances are I'd never vote for Denis - as he apparently is a typical socialist/federalist. It's unfortunate to see people even entertain the idea. It demonstrates to me that there's still much work to do to educate people on what it is exactly Ron Paul is fighting for. I've encountered people who will vote for Obama if Ron Paul doesn't get the nod... really sad.

[VoteForRonPaul]

I think it would be good to invite Kucinich and any other freedom loving patriot. I think it would be a good idea to show we are building a coalition and that freedom is bi-partisan. It would also help with the total numbers.

(im cross posting this in the march forum, but no one is looking there so I will post it here as well.)
You deserve 10 stars for this idea http://www.ronpaulforums.com/gfx_RedWhiteBlue/rating/rating_5.gifhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/gfx_RedWhiteBlue/rating/rating_5.gif Thank youuuu!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rhys]

Without reading anything but the headline, I think if we invite Kucinich we should also invite Noam Chomsky, Carl Marx's ghost, and anyone else you can think of to needlessly brand us further as liberals.

[VoteForRonPaul]

I think the people who care about nothing in RP's message but gun control should not come to this march!
Save your time, go buy a gun and stay at your home! I prefer listening to Dennis than listening to you!
http://www.acm.vt.edu/~clint/download/imagedump/gun-glock-by-smarterlam-at-flickr-163692235_09727fcbdd.jpg

[Truth Warrior]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Make coalitions whenever you can. RP does in Congress all the time.
"Any compromise between good and evil only works to the detriment of good and the benefit of evil."

Yeah the results of the old "go along to get along" over time is a major reason we're in all of these horrific messes, in the first place.

[pcosmar]

How about inviting McCain to the rally.
He talks about the Constitution. He says a lot of American stuff.
If we invite him the GOP will love us. That brings people together.


:rolleyes: Extreme sarcasm :rolleyes:

[Spirit of '76]

How about inviting McCain to the rally.
He talks about the Constitution. He says a lot of American stuff.
If we invite him the GOP will love us. That brings people together.


:rolleyes: Extreme sarcasm :rolleyes:


That's a perfect illustration of the absurdity of inviting the socialist nanny-stater Kucinich to a "Freedom March".

[pcosmar]

That's a perfect illustration of the absurdity of inviting the socialist nanny-stater Kucinich to a "Freedom March".

Well, I tried logic, but it was not working.
I thought I would give sarcasm a shot.

[ItsTime]

I am starting to like this idea of a "Freedom March" where we exclude people.

[Rangeley]

I am starting to like this idea of a "Freedom March" where we exclude people.
I don't think anyone is talking about excluding people from attending. The more who attend and hear the message, the better. What we are talking about is only having people who support the message speak at the march. If the march is just a whoever pays lip service to the constitution can get up and talk rally, what exactly is the point? If the message is essentially, the lack of one, then why would you think the rally would succeed? Who would be convinced of the rightness of the freedom message if that isn't even the message the rally is about?

Trying to make us look bad for supporting what should be a non-controversial idea is absolutely silly.

[pcosmar]

I am starting to like this idea of a "Freedom March" where we exclude people.

No, it is for Freedom Minded people, Not for those that promote a Globalist/Collectivist ideology.
I for one would love to see him change his views. If he were to come around I would welcome him, but not with his present stated positions.

[ItsTime]

The two major issues stopping the freedom movement.

1) The fed
2) The "war on terror"

Both those issues K is a friend. Even Ron Paul HIMSELF said so. The more we bring into the fold that have the same views on those issues the better. Our founding fathers did not agree on every issue.

But I guess its not a good idea. Forget I mentioned it.

[FreeTraveler]

I haven't heard one person here say they care about nothing in RP's message but gun control. However, let's discuss that one.

First, let's call it what it is. It's not gun control, it's victim disarmament.

If you're an advocate of victim disarmament, I'll be very happy to assist you in putting your life where your mouth is. I'll be glad to send you TWO FREE "Gun-Free Zone" welcome mats, one for your front door, and one for your back door.

I think it's important that crooks and rapists know where they will be welcome, and where they're likely to meet up with some hot lead and a casket.

Secondly, the Second Amendment is the PERFECT litmus test for ANY politician. If he doesn't trust you to defend your life, why in hell would you trust him to control your life? Why would you give power to someone who wants to see you helpless in the face of greater force? For further information, read Why Did it Have to be ... Guns? (http://billstclair.com/whyguns.html) by L. Neil Smith.

Thirdly, I feel sorry for the women in your life. Have you been honest enough to go to your mother, wife, and/or daughter and say "I'd rather see you raped in an alley and strangled with your own pantyhose, than see you provided with and trained to use a means of self-protection."?

You're welcome to come and get my guns anytime, sucker.


I think the people who care about nothing in RP's message but gun control should not come to this march!
Save your time, go buy a gun and stay at your home! I prefer listening to Dennis than listening to you!

[pcosmar]

The two major issues stopping the freedom movement.

1) The fed
2) The "war on terror"

Both those issues K is a friend. Even Ron Paul HIMSELF said so. The more we bring into the fold that have the same views on those issues the better. Our founding fathers did not agree on every issue.

But I guess its not a good idea. Forget I mentioned it.

No those are two small parts of the issue. You are focusing on symptoms and not the problem.
Our Government, and our Country has been infiltrated and co-opted by a philosophy that is counter to Freedom.
The concepts of socialism are contrary to the principals that this country was founded on.
Kucinich is stuck in the socialist mentality, even though he opposes the war and the Fed.
He still wants to give the UN authority over our national sovereignty.
He supports a Globalist Agenda.
I have read through the stuff on his web site. Though he has a couple points the I could agree with, the Whole of his position is Globalist/ Colectivist.
It runs contrary to an Individualist/Liberty position.

[FreeTraveler]

No those are two small parts of the issue. You are focusing on symptoms and not the problem.
Our Government, and our Country has been infiltrated and co-opted by a philosophy that is counter to Freedom.
The concepts of socialism are contrary to the principals that this country was founded on.
Kucinich is stuck in the socialist mentality, even though he opposes the war and the Fed.
He still wants to give the UN authority over our national sovereignty.
He supports a Globalist Agenda.
I have read through the stuff on his web site. Though he has a couple points the I could agree with, the Whole of his position is Globalist/ Colectivist.
It runs contrary to an Individualist/Liberty position.

Well said, sir!

[ItsTime]

If you both think those are symptoms are you are living under a rock.

[pcosmar]

If you both think those are symptoms are you are living under a rock.

This is where it started,

“Soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will effect our security as a chargeback for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being unable to work and earn a living. They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions”.

“Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call `Social Insurance.’ Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America.”

Colonal Mandell House, the founder of the CFR, from a meeting he had with Woodrow Wilson in 1910.

This is what we are fighting.

[ItsTime]

sounds like the fed to me

[pcosmar]

sounds like the fed to me

It goes way beyond that, but yes they did create the Fed. As I said, it is a part of the problem, but not the cause.
I want to see the Fed abolished, but beyond that I want to see the philosophy that created it flushed from the earth.
The War, as terrible as it is , did not cause the problem. The Fed did not cause the problem.
It is the philosophy of Collectivism that has been at work for a hundred years(at least) that is the problem.
The solution is educating the public to the difference between Individualism (the founding principals of this country) and Collectivism.
The difference is staggering. Night and day.
The two are incompatible.

[Joseph Hart]

Anyone that wants to restore liberty, freedoms, and prosperity should be at the march.

[kigol]

:)

[jbuttell]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Hah ;) I *HIGHLY* doubt Ron would agree with that comment. That's what our government is always doing. Look what it's done for us...