Don't let the "realists" bring you down.

[Zera]

First of all, I'll admit that the chances of getting the nomination at the convention aren't too high. But, with what's been seen, it's certainly possible.

The "realists" often make claims that Paul will not get the nomination at all. I understand that they want to be realistic and all, but saying things like "will not", which mean a definite no, are not encouraging and very negative. They obviously don't understand the circumstances of the delegate and the process at all. Or if they do, they aren't seeing the progress we're making, at all.

You've seen several success stories on this board. And they always report there were other Paul supporters there... So obviously, just the people who come here aren't the only ones who are doing this. There may be many Paul delegates all over the nation that just aren't coming to this board to tell us how it's going. I've heard that there are many meetings in major cities for the delegates where they meet up and plan things. This can all lead to Paul delegates at the state convention, which would then pass a resolution to release McCain's delegates. Once that is done, the national delegates could be chosen, and if there is a majority of Paul delegates there, guess which delegates will be chosen to be national ones?

And it IS happening. Over the past few days, some people here have posted links to GOP leaders trying to tell local GOP leaders to be wary and careful of Paul supporters, and some are trying to make it seem we're misinforming people (I believe it was Minnesota where the GOP people were saying so, though they aren't aware of the resolutions that could be passed at the state convention). It's all very apparent they are scared of us, and that a revolution delegate-wise is happening. They wouldn't even mention it, otherwise.

Just remember, stay away from the MSM. They aren't going to report about the convention and what could happen. They're only going to announce the nominee they think will be chosen based on delegate numbers that they make up often.

And as I mentioned, don't let the realists bring you down. Their intentions may not be to really do so, but hearing negative things in times like this where we can have success is never good. Continue to do what you can to become delegates, and good things CAN happen.

[The One]

Yeah, down with realism!!! Let's live in The Land of Make-Believe!!!!!

[flames2dust77]

Yeah, down with realism!!! Let's live in The Land of Make-Believe!!!!!

co-sign

[pcosmar]

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Some have Faith, Some don't.

[The One]

The "reality theorists" are hurting the campaign. I suggest we put all the "reality theorists" in their own subforum that can't be seen by non-members.

[Zera]

Sigh... I make a topic telling people to not be let down by them, and two just come here and continue to troll.

Go away.

[The One]

Sigh... I make a topic telling people to not be let down by them, and two just come here and continue to troll.

Go away.

"Go away".......it sounds like you agree with the suggestion I made above.

[TruthAtLast]

Yeah, down with realism!!! Let's live in The Land of Make-Believe!!!!!

QFT

Darn people want to keep holding on to the million-to-one odds and dump money into the slot machine hoping it will pay off, when there are REAL tangible things they can be doing to help the MOVEMENT.

Amazing how many so called "supporters" fail to listen to the man they claim to be supporting.

[raiha]

Hey look at my signature! :)

Look how RP started the campaign. He was not convinced he could get anywhere near as far as he did! He did it anyway. We are all so 'resutls focused'. Good, real change takes time. I know we are running out of that commodity, but difficult situations lead to new oppportunities.

[Zera]

"Go away".......it sounds like you agree with the suggestion I made above.

Your post hadn't been submitted yet when I posted. And, I'm not quite understanding, since you sounded like a jack ass in your first post in this topic, and then you suggest for posts like yours to be put somewhere else? Can't even tell what you're trying to do.

Again, may anyone who wants to post in a similar fashion just not do so? Your comments are very annoying, unnecessary, and negative.

[The One]

Your post hadn't been submitted yet when I posted. And, I'm not quite understanding, since you sounded like a jack ass in your first post in this topic, and then you suggest for posts like yours to be put somewhere else? Can't even tell what you're trying to do.

Again, may anyone who wants to post in a similar fashion just not do so? Your comments are very annoying, unnecessary, and negative.


I'll start putting in the sarcasm emoticon, so you can keep up.

[Zera]

I'll start putting in the sarcasm emoticon, so you can keep up.

Holy fuck. Not only are you realists negative, but also asses. What the hell is wrong with you people?

[ronpaulhawaii]

I have always lived under the "all things are possible" meme. This attitude has helped me in many endeavors, (such as pedeling a $250 wal-mart bicycle 3700miles across the country with no training, when I had never even owned a roadbike before, and never ridden more than a few miles at a stretch, as a kid...)

My biggest beefs with the "realists" is;

for one, they are not "realists" as no-one can foresee the future. Life has a funny way of treating fortune tellers...

for two, the disrespect they show towards those who are still working primary states. It is one thing to realistically admit we have a slim chance of overcoming all the obstacles being thrown at us. Quite another to declare defeat and discourage others who may not be able to see through the BS...

Work Hard - Make Friends - Make History

Dare to Win

[The One]

Holy fuck. Not only are you realists negative, but also asses. What the hell is wrong with you people?

"Hello Kettle," said the pot. "You're black."

[Zera]

"Hello Kettle," said the pot. "You're black."

...?!?

WHAT THE FUCK!

[The One]

...?!?

WHAT THE FUCK!


Perhaps we got off on the wrong foot, and I'm obviously not making any points with you by using sarcasm, so let's just say we agree that we have a fundamental disagreement.

You believe it is best to remain optimistic, and work hard for the win regardless of how unrealistic the possibility for a win might be. I admire your optimism and willingness to continue trying.

I, on the other hand, believe that we hurt ourselves by continuing to lead others to believe that we're going to win this thing through some stealth delegate strategy or by the planets suddenly aligning in our favor. When people realize that we're full of shit, they give up on the whole process and disappear. That is why I believe ronpaulforums.com continues to lose members.

If people were told the truth that Ron Paul is not going to win this election but that there are plenty of other things we can do and plenty of things worth continuing to fight for, this place would still be buzzing with activity....imho.

[Todd]

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Some have Faith, Some don't.

Everyone's aware of the ugly facts.
Me personally...I've been down and I've been ridiculed as to Paul's success, but I am not going to stop promoting Paul and his ideals until after the convention and after November voting day. When he decides to stop the run for President...then I will. I'll guarantee you that he has goals other than the nomination. And I won't ever stop promoting his ideals.

It's about the message and....

"Faith" is healthy. Go rEVOLution

[pcosmar]

The One
Is one
Don't be one.

[Highland]

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Some have Faith, Some don't.

Brilliant thank you for those hallowed words from the Good Book!

Jesus for Ron Paul!!!:p

[Meatwasp]

The "reality theorists" are hurting the campaign. I suggest we put all the "reality theorists" in their own subforum that can't be seen by non-members.

Gee what a great idea

[flames2dust77]

Sigh... I make a topic telling people to not be let down by them, and two just come here and continue to troll.

Go away.

Zera oh puhleease. Not one of my posts on this site can be considered trollish at all. None of my actions or work for the movement...remember "MOVEMENT" (which consists of more than the whole delegate process) can be considered trollish either. Check yourself. Just because ppl don't fall in line with exactly how you think...does not make them a troll. It's funny how ppl here want sheeples within the ranks. It's ridiculous. You obviously were not here after the whole super tuesday dose of reality. I have never said anything about the optimists here. I personally choose to start looking a bit ahead and see what can be done to help Dr. Paul out in Congress. My answer: support all ron paul republicans running for congress. I know...because that's such a baaaaad thing. I must be a dumb, realist, traitor.

PS...ppl this person says I'm a troll because i asked a question using the words "realist" and "negative" in comment a couple of days ago. Grow up.

[Zera]

Zera oh puhleease. Not one of my posts on this site can be considered trollish at all. None of my actions or work for the movement...remember "MOVEMENT" (which consists of more than the whole delegate process) can be considered trollish either. Check yourself. Just because ppl don't fall in line with exactly how you think...does not make them a troll. It's funny how ppl here want everyone to be sheeple within the ranks. It's ridiculous.

PS...ppl this person says I'm a troll because i asked a question using the words "realist" and "negative" in comment a couple of days ago. Grow up.

I actually saw your first realist post two days ago, and I don't recall that. I called you two trolls because I made a topic specifically for people who may be let down by realists such as yourself, and you two come in here to continue to bring people down.

[CMoore]

I have lived long enough to know that sometimes you succeed by simply hanging on until the end. By simply not quitting and continuing to pursue a goal, it can eventually be achieved. This is also known as persistence. Often persistence will win the day when intellect and skill fall by the wayside. So it is important that we not quit on this campaign until the Republican nomination has been made.

Secondly, this movement is also about IDEAS. These are important ideas which we must pursue until we are dead. We can't give up and we must not. If we fail to implement these ideas, it must be because we died, not because we quit.

The younger ones of you may not agree with this while the older ones almost certainly will.

[The One]

I actually saw your first realist post two days ago, and I don't recall that. I called you two trolls because I made a topic specifically for people who may be let down by realists such as yourself, and you two come in here to continue to bring people down.

I didn't come in here to bring people down. I did come in here to defend those of us who are calling for a little sanity in the way we view our chances and where our efforts would be best spent at this point in time.

[TruthAtLast]

Holy fuck. Not only are you realists negative, but also asses. What the hell is wrong with you people?

negative? to absolutely REFUSE to see reality is counter productive. People like you are destroying any chance this Movement has at having a lasting impact and implementing real change.

Could ANYTHING HAPPEN? Of course, but maybe I should hope for a meteor to hit the White House and the Congressional building. Hey..... "anything can happen" right? Wooo Hooo! Let's release a video and do a money bomb for a meteor hitting the White House!!!!

You forget what the goal was for the entire campaign in the first place, even when Ron Paul tells you over and over again. THIS IS NOT ABOUT ONE MAN! This is NOT the Ron Paul Revolution! This is not just about getting him the nomination!! This was said in his own words!

Ron Paul ignited a Movement and your rosy colored glasses are blinding you from the reality that McCain has a 99.99999999999999999% chance that he WILL BECOME THE NOMINEE.

But hey, let's waste our time for that 00.000000000000000001% chance!

Of course there are many successes and we love those. We love the experience that our people are getting in the delegate process. We love the show of support that the "message" is getting and showing the GOP that they need to change their ways. I'm all for that because that experience will be needed in future elections.

But do you even know how these state convention rules even work? Many of them are set WAY in advance (some over two years ago). You can't pass resolutions to release delegates!

YOU CAN possibly pass resolutions to change the rules for FUTURE elections. So, in that sense, yes it is important. Do you really think that each state is going to go against the popular vote and send Ron Paul supporters to the National Convention? COME ON! WAKE UP!!!!!!

Yes, if we took over EVERY SINGLE precinct and the only people they had to choose from were Ron Paul supporters, then it might work, but even then the delegates would be bound and in many cases they submit somewhat of a block vote (proportion to the delegates) when they get to the RNC.

Did you know that even if McCain died, Ron Paul probably would NOT become the nominee? Did you know that they can actually select ANYONE at that point, even if they weren't in the Presidential race? These aren't General Election rules, they are the rules of the Party.

You people are losing focus when there is a lot of work to do. How many times do we read about Bills that Ron Paul proposes or fights against with no one backing him? Ron Paul is practically the lone voice of reason in Congress and we have the ability to get possibly dozens of people backing him. That is probably more valuable than any amount of pipe dream scenarios because that is REAL. Heck, even if Ron Paul won the nomination, there is no guarantee he would win the General election. And even if he pulled off that feat Congress would block many of the things he would want to do. Ron Paul himself has said this! That is why he says that this is a Long Term Project.

You call people who see the big picture trolls and negative. I submit that you are the one spreading an unfocused message that goes AGAINST everything that Ron Paul has been saying.

Here's an idea.... try actually listening to the guy you claim to support, or are you also one of those people that think you can FORCE him into a 3rd party or Independent run if you could just do another money bomb or get enough signatures!

[flames2dust77]

co-sign does not equal bringing ppl down. dude, lighten up. it's sarcasm. and yes...you quoted my question in that post and very rudely told me to go away. over a question. u need to chill out and actually look at ppls past posts before you start being a butt.

i edited my previous comment. go back and read it. my point is in there. yes...do work to get the delegates...but we MUST start looking a ahead at what to do if the delegates do not pan out. You have to stay one step ahead of everything. If you put all of your hope into delegates we'll be scrambling for another plan at the last minute. This is a movement...change isn't going to happen over night. The GOP needs to be transformed...big time.

[flames2dust77]

QFT



Amazing how many so called "supporters" fail to listen to the man they claim to be supporting.

QFT.

I mean c'mooooon! Are some of you ppl kidding me? Do you not listen to a word RP says?

[LEK]

I've been listening to this song to keep me going: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcTDDLavowM

(actual song starts at :25)

Dream Big!

[Zera]

To whoever said I deny reality completely:

Read the first sentence of my first post.

[Kotin]

look zera..

im also optimistic. but, i know we dont have a big chance. you can be a realist and an optimist

and you have to understand, these people are not trolls, they are just as committed as me and you.

but they have accepted the long haul goals and let go of the short term.

as should you, i mean if we somehow win the convention then great. but we cant dwell on the nomination anymore.

we can work towards the Convention and..

we can work as hard as we can to spread the message.

[nate895]

Hey all you "realist" and "optimists," you guys need to see my thread We are in one of three historical positions (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=128645).

[alaric]

I have lived long enough to know that sometimes you succeed by simply hanging on until the end. By simply not quitting and continuing to pursue a goal, it can eventually be achieved. This is also known as persistence. Often persistence will win the day when intellect and skill fall by the wayside. So it is important that we not quit on this campaign until the Republican nomination has been made.

Secondly, this movement is also about IDEAS. These are important ideas which we must pursue until we are dead. We can't give up and we must not. If we fail to implement these ideas, it must be because we died, not because we quit.

The younger ones of you may not agree with this while the older ones almost certainly will.

Yes, and remember Ron Paul's words to the effect of: a lot can happen before the convention. Mccain could be on one of those 'made for our chosen candidates' interviews and just totally implode on air. I mean this guy is really nuts! A Senator pushes away an old lady in a wheel chair for asking about the MIA's? Now there's reality for you!:D

[GoPaul08]

Let me ask you...if you had to gamble with your life, would you be happy if in rder to stay alive you have to hit 20 consecutive roulette spins in a row? Not picking the color, but the exact number? Because that it the odds that you are optimistic about.

Again..the reason why it is so imprtant to not hang onto pipe dreams is two fold. 1. You are wasting time and energy on something that has zero percent chance of happening. and 2. When you show the mainstream that you refuse to accept reality, you give the haters reason to not take you seriously. You really think that going up to a random person ion the street now and saying that Ron Paul still has a chance for the nomination is going to make them listen to you, or read the slim jims you give them? Absolutely not. If you act like someone not in this real world, those slim jims are being thrown on the ground the second you walk away.

You would do MUCH more good to the movement to say "Well, we fought the good fight in this primary season. We are not going to get the nomination, but that does not mean that we can't still fight for the ideals. Not just with this year, but in years to come." People will take you seriously then, and will be more willing to listen.

And alaric...that STILL wouldn't give Ron Paul the nomination. McCain could die, or punch a 2 month old baby in the head...that does not make Ron Paul the GOP nomination. So not only are you banking on hitting the roulette spins 20 times in a row..but even if you DID, it wouldn't make him the nomination.

Here is another example. I was always a basketball fan. One time, my Knicks were down by 12 points with 5 seconds remaining. I said to my mom that it was still possible for them to win. I said if someone hit a three pointer and got fouled, and then the other team argued about the foul to the point of getting 9 technical fouls called on them, they could win it.

Here is the thing though...I was 10 years old. And joking. Even at age 10 I realized how ridiculous it was to think that it could happen.

[Zera]

Let me ask you...if you had to gamble with your life, would you be happy if in rder to stay alive you have to hit 20 consecutive roulette spins in a row? Not picking the color, but the exact number? Because that it the odds that you are optimistic about.

Again..the reason why it is so imprtant to not hang onto pipe dreams is two fold. 1. You are wasting time and energy on something that has zero percent chance of happening. and 2. When you show the mainstream that you refuse to accept reality, you give the haters reason to not take you seriously. You really think that going up to a random person ion the street now and saying that Ron Paul still has a chance for the nomination is going to make them listen to you, or read the slim jims you give them? Absolutely not. If you act like someone not in this real world, those slim jims are being thrown on the ground the second you walk away.

You would do MUCH more good to the movement to say "Well, we fought the good fight in this primary season. We are not going to get the nomination, but that does not mean that we can't still fight for the ideals. Not just with this year, but in years to come." People will take you seriously then, and will be more willing to listen.

And alaric...that STILL wouldn't give Ron Paul the nomination. McCain could die, or punch a 2 month old baby in the head...that does not make Ron Paul the GOP nomination. So not only are you banking on hitting the roulette spins 20 times in a row..but even if you DID, it wouldn't make him the nomination.

Here is another example. I was always a basketball fan. One time, my Knicks were down by 12 points with 5 seconds remaining. I said to my mom that it was still possible for them to win. I said if someone hit a three pointer and got fouled, and then the other team argued about the foul to the point of getting 9 technical fouls called on them, they could win it.

Here is the thing though...I was 10 years old. And kidding. Even at age 10 I realized how ridiculous it was to think that it could happen.

You're an idiot.

[crazyfingers]

You're an idiot.

Another brilliant refutation from the "he can still win" crowd.

[uncollapse]

Let me ask you...if you had to gamble with your life, would you be happy if in rder to stay alive you have to hit 20 consecutive roulette spins in a row? Not picking the color, but the exact number? Because that it the odds that you are optimistic about.

Again..the reason why it is so imprtant to not hang onto pipe dreams is two fold. 1. You are wasting time and energy on something that has zero percent chance of happening. and 2. When you show the mainstream that you refuse to accept reality, you give the haters reason to not take you seriously. You really think that going up to a random person ion the street now and saying that Ron Paul still has a chance for the nomination is going to make them listen to you, or read the slim jims you give them? Absolutely not. If you act like someone not in this real world, those slim jims are being thrown on the ground the second you walk away.

You would do MUCH more good to the movement to say "Well, we fought the good fight in this primary season. We are not going to get the nomination, but that does not mean that we can't still fight for the ideals. Not just with this year, but in years to come." People will take you seriously then, and will be more willing to listen.

And alaric...that STILL wouldn't give Ron Paul the nomination. McCain could die, or punch a 2 month old baby in the head...that does not make Ron Paul the GOP nomination. So not only are you banking on hitting the roulette spins 20 times in a row..but even if you DID, it wouldn't make him the nomination.

Here is another example. I was always a basketball fan. One time, my Knicks were down by 12 points with 5 seconds remaining. I said to my mom that it was still possible for them to win. I said if someone hit a three pointer and got fouled, and then the other team argued about the foul to the point of getting 9 technical fouls called on them, they could win it.

Here is the thing though...I was 10 years old. And joking. Even at age 10 I realized how ridiculous it was to think that it could happen.

In a similar vein, I also think you are wasting your time trying to convince people to believe that RP will not win. Your reasoning is so weak that the chances you can convince one person here is like trying to hit 20 consecutive roulette spins in a row. Not picking the color, but the exact number! :D

[amy31416]

Zera oh puhleease. Not one of my posts on this site can be considered trollish at all. None of my actions or work for the movement...remember "MOVEMENT" (which consists of more than the whole delegate process) can be considered trollish either. Check yourself. Just because ppl don't fall in line with exactly how you think...does not make them a troll. It's funny how ppl here want sheeples within the ranks. It's ridiculous. You obviously were not here after the whole super tuesday dose of reality. I have never said anything about the optimists here. I personally choose to start looking a bit ahead and see what can be done to help Dr. Paul out in Congress. My answer: support all ron paul republicans running for congress. I know...because that's such a baaaaad thing. I must be a dumb, realist, traitor.

PS...ppl this person says I'm a troll because i asked a question using the words "realist" and "negative" in comment a couple of days ago. Grow up.

F2D is definitely, absolutely 100% anti-troll. Any claims otherwise are complete and utter BS. I've seen the work she does for the movement and she is not a negative person in the least.

Reality is not a bad word, being a realist is a good thing.

And there are some harsh realities out there for us supporters. Let's get used to it, we will be much more effective if we are realistic rather than just driven on pure emotion.

[TruthAtLast]

my Knicks were down by 12 points with 5 seconds remaining. I said to my mom that it was still possible for them to win. I said if someone hit a three pointer and got fouled, and then the other team argued about the foul to the point of getting 9 technical fouls called on them, they could win it.

You mean you can't come back in 5 seconds being down by 12? Man... you're just spreading negativity.... ;)

Can't they get fouled hitting a 3 and miss the last free throw and put it in for a 4 point play, then foul the moment the other team inbounds the ball, having them miss both free throws, then taking a time out to advance the ball up court, to then hit a "catch and shoot" 3 pointer, then steal the next inbound pass and get another three, only to then foul again, have them miss two more free throws and hit another 3 to win the game?

Come on man, "anything is possible"! You're just giving up!! :D

[flames2dust77]

You're an idiot.

see, that's why no one will take you seriously. they made a good case and your only rebuttal is, "you're an idiot." way to alienate members of your own team.:rolleyes:

[Kotin]

remember everyone..


zera is in like 8th grade.

[amy31416]

remember everyone..


zera is in like 8th grade.

Well now it makes sense!

[TruthAtLast]

remember everyone..


zera is in like 8th grade.

awww, i feel bad now. I feel like I was picking on a handicapped person or something. Though I'm still laughing at the "you're an idiot" comment.

I can just picture Ron Paul, instead of defending his ideals, just turning to a reporter, interviewer, or debate host and saying "you're and idiot". :D


The truth is that I value the optimism and energy. I just think it is misplaced by many people. Focus that same energy into something that can really make a difference and the Movement will thrive.

Why is it that Ron Paul can send one email and without any planning we spontaneously create a money bomb that drops about $1 million into his Congressional race in 24 hours, YET we can't fully fund any of these liberty candidates who only need a fraction of that amount and could make some real progress in Congress while giving Ron Paul some much needed support.

It just doesn't make sense to me. This "Movement" is splintering off into so many different directions that it lacks any focus. And though there are some merits to having independent Grassroots organizations, this is the major problem with completely decentralizing a Movement. There is no direction, therefore our power in numbers and resources is drastically diluted.

Seriously, in a single week, we should be able to destroy the competition of any one of our Pauliticians. More money, youtube the heck out of them, call radio stations and flood emails, take over every poll, etc. Many of these guys are just trying to get over the hump and once they prove to the local bigwigs that they are for real, they'll have all of the support they need to take it the rest of the way.

[The One]

remember everyone..


zera is in like 8th grade.


Is that true???? If it is, I'm gonna go beat myself in the head with a tack hammer for being the world's biggest dickhead.

[amy31416]

Is that true???? If it is, I'm gonna go beat myself in the head with a tack hammer for being the world's biggest dickhead.

Don't beat yourself up, literally or figuratively, or even with a tack hammer. There's a lot of craziness going on here.

[flames2dust77]

Well now it makes sense!

are you serious? LOL! I can't stop laughing. :p jeeeezus.

[j650]

I think Zera and nate are both in the 8th grade so that gives you some insight into who we're dealing with here. Not even eligible to vote. There's nothing wrong with being real about Ron Paul not being President. The long term goals are much more important here. Congressman Paul even said himself that a revolutions are long term projects.

[TruthAtLast]

There's nothing wrong with being real about Ron Paul not being President. The long term goals are much more important here. Congressman Paul even said himself that a revolutions are long term projects.

QFT

[Akus]

The negativity is poisoning the morale more then the most pessimistic MSM report.

I wish people would understand that the win, while is not certain, is very reachable. I wish people would see that that one "realist" throws his hands up and says screw it was all it would have taken to win the nomination.

Have you heard the OK and, I believe, MO stories where they were missing only 5 or some other negligibly small amount of people to make those states send RP delegates to the convention in St. Paul?

I cannot repeat this enough. If there ever was a time to believe, to fight and to persevere, now is that time. We don't know the whole picture, but I do contact Dr. Robert Paul and others close to him and he says we are in a very good position and, given that we will still bust our asses like we have for the last year, we stand a good, respectable chance of getting the nomination. It isn't a guarantee, but it is a chance.

Why can't we just once try our damnest to get that chance? Stop comparing this to a lottery or to some Vegas slot machine. This is neither. This is a future of our country, this is a very obtainable chance, not by dumb luck, but by work, work and more work. I'm talking boots on the ground, I'm talking participation of every single able bodied Ron Paul supporter.

Stop with the negativity, you're poisoning the campaign and you're going against what Ron Paul believes, changing the status quo.

[TruthAtLast]

The negativity is poisoning the morale more then the most pessimistic MSM report.

I wish people would understand that the win, while is not certain, is very reachable. I wish people would see that that one "realist" throws his hands up and says screw it was all it would have taken to win the nomination.

Have you heard the OK and, I believe, MO stories where they were missing only 5 or some other negligibly small amount of people to make those states send RP delegates to the convention in St. Paul?

I cannot repeat this enough. If there ever was a time to believe, to fight and to persevere, now is that time. We don't know the whole picture, but I do contact Dr. Robert Paul and others close to him and he says we are in a very good position and, given that we will still bust our asses like we have for the last year, we stand a good, respectable chance of getting the nomination. It isn't a guarantee, but it is a chance.

Why can't we just once try our damnest to get that chance? Stop comparing this to a lottery or to some Vegas slot machine. This is neither. This is a future of our country, this is a very obtainable chance, not by dumb luck, but by work, work and more work. I'm talking boots on the ground, I'm talking participation of every single able bodied Ron Paul supporter.

Stop with the negativity, you're poisoning the campaign and you're going against what Ron Paul believes, changing the status quo.

i admire your enthusiasm. I admire your drive and determination. We need those kinds of people but what the heck makes you think that realists are throwing their hands up and giving up? We aren't being negative. We are being POSITIVE. we are trying to push this Movement forward rather than hanging onto false hopes.

Those successes you speak of are at the county level. And yes they are important because we might be able to make policy changes for future elections. We might be able to pass some resolutions to change the platform. We certainly can gain contacts and experience to help with future elections.

But there is a difference between having THAT goal, and saying that these delegates are suddenly going to be unbound or that suddenly McCain will not have 50% of the votes on the first ballot (regardless of how many Ron Paul supporters are there). There is a difference between trying to change the platform and slowly infiltrating the Republican party (which I believe is necessary) and having people plan to overthrow the popular vote and somehow organize a coup at the Convention. This worked out well in Louisiana didn't it?

People are talking about raising millions to do ad campaigns to "convince" other non-Ron Paul delegates to switch their loyalties and collude to overthrow the RNC. I mean seriously? This is the plan?

We aren't giving up, we are moving to areas that can actually effect this country immediately.

I know you are much too intelligent to believe that "one realist" is all it would take to win the nomination.

For those people that are delegates, by all means keep pushing forward. There are many other very legitimate reasons for this. But to tell people that Ron Paul is suddenly going to steal the election is nuts. You may as well tell them that there is a secret plan to assassinate McCain and hold hostage all other delegates to vote for Ron Paul.

I think our delegates are doing amazing work. They are getting great experience and in some cases they are even getting some resolutions passed at the county level that hopefully will reach the State and National level. They are also bringing some legitimacy to the "message", so that alone is a great success and worth pursuing.

But what makes you think that it is just one or the other? Why the heck would we want to put all of our eggs one basket? 5-6 months from now, when Ron Paul DOESN'T get the nomination and many or all of our Liberty candidates have also lost due to lack of support.... then what are you going to be left with?

[Zera]

I understand that the whole revolution is a long term thing. It's not like I'd completely give it up if Paul didn't get the nomination. Regardless, try to see what I am trying to say.

It seems that most of the realists are, even if it's not intentional, not being very positive. I mean, what does "Ron Paul has no chance of getting the nomination" sound like? I already said it in the first post that the chance isn't too great, everyone knows that. But, it's still there. People have made progress and have done some cool stuff, which we know from the success stories they post here. So, it's obvious that if similar things continue to happen nationwide, then yes, there is a chance that he can still get the nomination. It's just stupid to think that there's none at all!

Here's a resolution: If you see people discussing the event of the convention, just don't post saying something like he has no chance. People are spending their time trying to make the chance happen, so let them be.

[Revolution9]

There are two sides here.. The "get with the program side" and those who refuse to be programmed. The ones promoting programming insist that their programming is not faulty. They have no way to prove or disprove this except through rote and repetition. Conversely the ones refusing programming cannot elucidate to the program followers why they refuse in such a manner as to break through the false stranglehold on "reality" exhibited by the program followers. Personally I own the real estate between my ears..not any of you.. If I want to go on believing what I wish to believe about future events, only those events unfolding and coming or not coming to fruition will alter my perception. The rest is all mumbo jumbo and programming output. Common sense dictates this to be so..

McCain has advanced alzheimers. Stuff that into your reality pipe and watch the smoke curls as they loft to the heavens.

Randy

[Conza88]

The "REALISTS" have nothing in common with "REALITY".

They all gravitate towards conventional wisdom.. but that is NEVER wise.

You WANT REALITY?

= LISTEN TO THE DELEGATES.

The 'realists' IGNORE them.

Thus, they're WRONG>.

[uncollapse]

Here's a resolution: If you see people discussing the event of the convention, just don't post saying something like he has no chance. People are spending their time trying to make the chance happen, so let them be.

+1

Skeptics should keep their mouth shut. spewing negativity and doom and gloom is just so destructive. Although I do not believe that RP has much chance of winning the nomination, I respect those who have cling on to their convictions and faith and work hard in getting RP the nomination. It is quite commendable. :)

[flames2dust77]

Someone point out the negativity in these comments. I don't see it. btw...realist does not = skeptic.

What I am asking, all of you who are concentrating on the delegates and the nomination: is that all you're concerned with at this point in time? And if so, what will you do IF the convention does not work in our favor? I am not asking to argue your answers...i am asking because i do not understand. Your personal perception is your reality.

I personally have not lost hope...but i am also trying to stay extremely grounded, especially after super tuesday. People not being grounded is what made alot of ppl jump ship. I seriously believe that. ...well, i know it's a fact with several ex supporters i have spoken to recently.

This word "realist" ppl have started throwing around is ridiculous. It's called "having your feet firmly planted on the ground, having your head out of the clouds, and doin' work."

If you are all about getting the delegates...then get with it! If you're about supporting Ron Paul republicans and promoting them...do that. There is a ton of work to be done w/in the revolution, for the revolution, by the revolution, whatever. I have done a ton of work as far as delegates go here where I am living now...and back in my home state of Texas. I'm done with that.; I have done all I can do in that realm w/o upsetting my household and taking away from my child. I am not throwing my hands up like some have claimed realists/skeptics are doing. I am now doing other things that I personally feel are worth while in this movement. So stop bagging on the ppl who do not fall in line w/being obsessed about the delegates. I remain open to: anything can happen. But, damn... while I remain open....it's time to do work instead of obsessing.

[pcosmar]

I need a miracle every day.

And its real and it wont go away, oh no
I cant get around and I cant run away
I need a miracle every day.

[uncollapse]

Someone point out the negativity in these comments. I don't see it. btw...realist does not = skeptic.


By constantly maintaining a doubtful attitude towards someone else's plan makes you a skeptic. Check the dictionary.

Just like firm but not harsh; realistic but not skeptical

[flames2dust77]

By constantly maintaining a doubtful attitude towards someone else's plan makes you a skeptic. Check the dictionary.

Just like firm but not harsh; realistic but not skeptical

skepticism - an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object

realist - One who is inclined to literal truth and pragmatism

there is a difference. i should have stated: a realist does not equal a skeptic. if any of us were skeptics...we would have jumped ship after super tuesday....believe that. there is still work to do...lots.

[TruthAtLast]

By constantly maintaining a doubtful attitude towards someone else's plan makes you a skeptic. Check the dictionary.

Just like firm but not harsh; realistic but not skeptical

i guess that makes Ron Paul a skeptic too then. ;)

[flames2dust77]

i guess that makes Ron Paul a skeptic too then. ;)

RP admitted he was a skeptic. That probably makes him a realist too. :)

[phree]

There are two sides here.. The "get with the program side" and those who refuse to be programmed. The ones promoting programming insist that their programming is not faulty. They have no way to prove or disprove this except through rote and repetition. Conversely the ones refusing programming cannot elucidate to the program followers why they refuse in such a manner as to break through the false stranglehold on "reality" exhibited by the program followers. Personally I own the real estate between my ears..not any of you.. If I want to go on believing what I wish to believe about future events, only those events unfolding and coming or not coming to fruition will alter my perception. The rest is all mumbo jumbo and programming output. Common sense dictates this to be so..

McCain has advanced alzheimers. Stuff that into your reality pipe and watch the smoke curls as they loft to the heavens.

Randy

Aye, truer words were ne'r spoken me monkey-assed mate! Tis true ye own real estate betwixt yer ears, tis a shame the market is crashing!

[uncollapse]

i guess that makes Ron Paul a skeptic too then.

Skeptic is not a global property. It has to be associated with a particular notion/idea/proposition etc. Ron Paul is a skeptic on this 'delegate trogan horse' plan? FYI, this is Ron Paul's plan.

[flames2dust77]

Aye, truer words were ne'r spoken me monkey-assed mate! Tis true ye own real estate betwixt yer ears, tis a shame the market is crashing!

something i've been wondering forever....why do u guys talk like that? anytime i read anyone's posts like that...i always read it with a pirate's voice running through my head. makes me wonder what Randy's speaking voice is really like. One of the revolution's great mysteries, I suppose.;)

[Todd]

Aye, truer words were ne'r spoken me monkey-assed mate! Tis true ye own real estate betwixt yer ears, tis a shame the market is crashing!

gotta be a top 25 funniest post Phree. Especially because of who it's in response to. :p

[nate895]

something i've been wondering forever....why do u guys talk like that? anytime i read anyone's posts like that...i always read it with a pirate's voice running through my head. makes me wonder what Randy's speaking voice is really like. One of the revolution's great mysteries, I suppose.;)

Aye, same here.

[flames2dust77]

gotta be a top 25 funniest post Phree. Especially because of who it's in response to. :p

it's in my top 5. solely for the word, "betwixt." classic.:cool:

[Banana]

Let's try an analogy.


We have a lottery for $1 million. The odds of winning a lottery are 1 in 1,308,120,372,038,273,128,102

A realist says there is very little chance and doesn't buy a ticket. Right off, we can tell off that his odds of winning are exactly 0%.

Now, we have someone who doesn't have much confidence that he'll win the lottery, but buys one ticket. All of sudden, his odds skyrocket from zero to a small chance. The gap between zero chance and small chance is much more larger than the gap between small and better chance.

Now, suppose we have another guy who decide that he can win lottery! He hocks everything he has, and makes a big loan from the bank to scourge up $100,000 and squander it all on lottery tickets. Now, he has much better chance than the first guy who bought one ticket, but the payoff is much more bigger. He loses, and thus is penniless, bankrupt and doomed to wander the streets in his despair for his folly.

Now, suppose someone read the lottery rulebook and found out that lottery permitted a pool, so a group of people got together and buy several tickets. Now they have much more better chance than that one guy who bought one tickets, and they don't risk as much as that guy who betted everything.


Now here's how this works.


The first guy is whoever never was a Presidential Candidate.

The second guy is any third tier candidate.

The third guy is Ross Perot.

The group who worked together are Paulites working to be delegates to various conventions.

In end, the group has the best outcome, even if they lose, because they now have invested into something: the GOP party.

[nate895]

Let's try an analogy.


We have a lottery for $1 million. The odds of winning a lottery are 1 in 1,308,120,372,038,273,128,102

A realist says there is very little chance and doesn't buy a ticket. Right off, we can tell off that his odds of winning are exactly 0%.

Now, we have someone who doesn't have much confidence that he'll win the lottery, but buys one ticket. All of sudden, his odds skyrocket from zero to a small chance. The gap between zero chance and small chance is much more larger than the gap between small and better chance.

Now, suppose we have another guy who decide that he can win lottery! He hocks everything he has, and makes a big loan from the bank to scourge up $100,000 and squander it all on lottery tickets. Now, he has much better chance than the first guy who bought one ticket, but the payoff is much more bigger. He loses, and thus is penniless, bankrupt and doomed to wander the streets in his despair for his folly.

Now, suppose someone read the lottery rulebook and found out that lottery permitted a pool, so a group of people got together and buy several tickets. Now they have much more better chance than that one guy who bought one tickets, and they don't risk as much as that guy who betted everything.


Now here's how this works.


The first guy is whoever never was a Presidential Candidate.

The second guy is any third tier candidate.

The third guy is Ross Perot.

The group who worked together are Paulites working to be delegates to various conventions.

In end, the group has the best outcome, even if they lose, because they now have invested into something: the GOP party.

I like your analogy.

[phree]

it's in my top 5. solely for the word, "betwixt." classic.:cool:

:) I actually looked it up, and it's a real word!

I've tried to bond with Randy on a few occasions but he has yet to reply. Alas.:(

[TruthAtLast]

Let's try an analogy.


We have a lottery for $1 million. The odds of winning a lottery are 1 in 1,308,120,372,038,273,128,102

A realist says there is very little chance and doesn't buy a ticket. Right off, we can tell off that his odds of winning are exactly 0%.

Now, we have someone who doesn't have much confidence that he'll win the lottery, but buys one ticket. All of sudden, his odds skyrocket from zero to a small chance. The gap between zero chance and small chance is much more larger than the gap between small and better chance.

Now, suppose we have another guy who decide that he can win lottery! He hocks everything he has, and makes a big loan from the bank to scourge up $100,000 and squander it all on lottery tickets. Now, he has much better chance than the first guy who bought one ticket, but the payoff is much more bigger. He loses, and thus is penniless, bankrupt and doomed to wander the streets in his despair for his folly.

Now, suppose someone read the lottery rulebook and found out that lottery permitted a pool, so a group of people got together and buy several tickets. Now they have much more better chance than that one guy who bought one tickets, and they don't risk as much as that guy who betted everything.


Now here's how this works.


The first guy is whoever never was a Presidential Candidate.

The second guy is any third tier candidate.

The third guy is Ross Perot.

The group who worked together are Paulites working to be delegates to various conventions.

In end, the group has the best outcome, even if they lose, because they now have invested into something: the GOP party.

actually not that bad analogy.

But the realist would ask what they could do with $100,000 (or even the group's pooled money) to make much more than the $1 million jackpot and have a 90% chance of a return rather than 1.3 septillion odds that is suggested in this analogy. With those odds, even pooled resources would likely be wasted for it would take more money to win the lottery than the jackpot is worth.

Another solution would be to do both. Spend 20% on lottery tickets (because "you never know" ;) ) and the other 80% on an alternative with a higher chance of long term success.

You also didn't add into the analogy that the lottery commission (knowing that you've pooled your money) is doing everything to make SURE your numbers don't come up. Makes it difficult to win doesn't it. Now what are the odds?

[Banana]

TruthAtLast,

Aw, craps. I forgot to make one more important point: The rulebook doesn't say that a pool would mean a group divide up the jackpot, but rather each member of the group got the amount equal to the jackpot. That was the crucial piece to make the analogy work; we all win *big* if we get Paul nominated so the outcome is equal in this sense (But we both know that there's no such lottery in existence- they'd be bankrupt if they had that loophole! ;))

So, of course, the commission, having found out that they blundered big time with that loophole but are in middle of ticket-buying, so they are unable to stop the buying of tickets right away and will have to pursue other options to ensure that no ticket within that pool is ever drawn.


Does that work better? This also would explain why realists' decision to take the pooled $100K would not still get the same result- they can settle on a investment with 90% return, but never will make a fortune of $1 million x members of the pool.

[rajibo]

realist

noun
1. a philosopher who believes that universals are real and exist independently of anyone thinking of them
2. a person who accepts the world as it literally is and deals with it accordingly
3. a painter who represents the world realistically and not in an idealized or romantic style

dreamer

noun
1. someone who is dreaming
2. someone guided more by ideals than by practical considerations [syn: idealist]
3. a person who escapes into a world of fantasy [syn: escapist]

[TruthAtLast]

Well that changes everything!

It all makes perfect sense now. What was I thinking? :D



TruthAtLast,

Aw, craps. I forgot to make one more important point: The rulebook doesn't say that a pool would mean a group divide up the jackpot, but rather each member of the group got the amount equal to the jackpot. That was the crucial piece to make the analogy work; we all win *big* if we get Paul nominated so the outcome is equal in this sense (But we both know that there's no such lottery in existence- they'd be bankrupt if they had that loophole! ;))

So, of course, the commission, having found out that they blundered big time with that loophole but are in middle of ticket-buying, so they are unable to stop the buying of tickets right away and will have to pursue other options to ensure that no ticket within that pool is ever drawn.


Does that work better? This also would explain why realists' decision to take the pooled $100K would not still get the same result- they can settle on a investment with 90% return, but never will make a fortune of $1 million x members of the pool.

[uncollapse]

Even if this 'delegate trojan horse' strategy does not work out, it at least can show the GOP that they should not dismiss RP so carelessly; his voice must be heard and republicans desire a real conservatives like RP.

So yeah. That is the consolation prize! And the consolation prize itself is also as worthy a pursuit. :cool:

[TruthAtLast]

Even if this 'delegate trojan horse' strategy does not work out, it at least can show the GOP that they should not dismiss RP so carelessly; his voice must be heard and republicans desire a real conservatives like RP.

So yeah. That is the consolation prize! And the consolation prize itself is also as worthy a pursuit. :cool:

well, I totally agree with the strategy of helping to change the party for future elections, affecting the Republican platform and making a representation of our strength. To a degree, those are actually fairly realistic goals and we've seen some success so far.

So with that mindset it IS a worthy cause, and I'm all for it. But I'm ALSO for trying to get people elected to Congress because that is something that could have an immediate impact before the next election and is probably a goal that is much easier to attain if given the same effort and resources.

Maybe it is a matter of semantics here. It is the fact that people are so SURE that Ron Paul can win and are completely ignoring other parts of the Movement that could have an equal if not better impact on the long term goals. They start spouting off delegate counts of which are bound, unbound, committed, uncommitted, pledged, and on and on. Some people (not everyone) somehow pull these scenarios out of nowhere. :D

It is the people who put up topics about wanting to raise millions for a campaign to convert delegates bound to other candidates when the "realist" in me can't help but think that kind of money would nearly guarantee wins in several Congressional races.

It isn't that I think we should abandon the delegate process. As you said, there are many other advantages. I just think that some people are WAY too wrapped up in the fantasy scenarios.

Topics like: "John McCain Will Not Win The GOP Nomination in St. Paul"
I mean SERIOUSLY.... that is what I'm talking about.

[Banana]

Topics like: "John McCain Will Not Win The GOP Nomination in St. Paul"
I mean SERIOUSLY.... that is what I'm talking about.

Aha, I get what you talk about. Yes, this talk is very premature. We haven't even made it to state conventions for a large majority of states (all of them, maybe?)

We'll know more in summer but for now, delegates is pretty much all that matters in terms of concreting the revolution into the GOP.

[phuqig_hotband]

The One
Is one
Don't be one.

You are odd. What are you trying to say?

[phuqig_hotband]

I have lived long enough to know that sometimes you succeed by simply hanging on until the end. By simply not quitting and continuing to pursue a goal, it can eventually be achieved. This is also known as persistence. Often persistence will win the day when intellect and skill fall by the wayside. So it is important that we not quit on this campaign until the Republican nomination has been made.

Secondly, this movement is also about IDEAS. These are important ideas which we must pursue until we are dead. We can't give up and we must not. If we fail to implement these ideas, it must be because we died, not because we quit.

The younger ones of you may not agree with this while the older ones almost certainly will.

That seems like a good way of going about doing things. Have a cautious optimism until our goals are obtained. At the same time, as long as somebody supports individual liberty, they should not be chased away even if their predictions are not as optimistic.

If someone is too "realistic" for your taste, there is no need to tell him or her to go away (not saying you were but others do,) just explain to them your position and try not to be too sensitive. If our numbers continue to decline because of impractical intolerance, we will surely not achieve our goals.

Reaction to circumstance varies with each individual. Some respond negatively to "irrational exuberance" and others to "negative nay-sayers." We all have the same goal, and as long as someone isn’t saying "I am changing my vote to Hillary Clinton and here is why," they should be tolerated.

[phuqig_hotband]

There are two sides here.. The "get with the program side" and those who refuse to be programmed. The ones promoting programming insist that their programming is not faulty. They have no way to prove or disprove this except through rote and repetition. Conversely the ones refusing programming cannot elucidate to the program followers why they refuse in such a manner as to break through the false stranglehold on "reality" exhibited by the program followers. Personally I own the real estate between my ears..not any of you.. If I want to go on believing what I wish to believe about future events, only those events unfolding and coming or not coming to fruition will alter my perception. The rest is all mumbo jumbo and programming output. Common sense dictates this to be so..

McCain has advanced alzheimers. Stuff that into your reality pipe and watch the smoke curls as they loft to the heavens.

Randy

For those that do no speak pirate, here is an interpretation:

People believe what they believe. Others do not believe and do not want the believers to believe. I am a believer and don't like that others do not want me to believe. I will quit believing only when I believe believing is impossible. Not believing what I believe is nonsense because only what I believe I’m believing is sense. If you were a believer, you would believe this.

Mccain may go crazy soon. Non-believers! Fuck!

Got it?

[phuqig_hotband]

gotta be a top 25 funniest post Phree. Especially because of who it's in response to. :p

Once one understands what is being said, milk promptly makes way out of nose.

[flames2dust77]

For those that do no speak pirate, here is an interpretation:

People believe what they believe. Others do not believe and do not want the believers to believe. I am a believer and don't like that others do not want me to believe. I will quit believing only when I believe believing is impossible. Not believing what I believe is nonsense because only what I believe I’m believing is sense. If you were a believer, you would believe this.

Mccain may go crazy soon. Non-believers! Fuck!

Got it?

this response is also in my top 5. lol! my head is spinning.

[amy31416]

For those that do no speak pirate, here is an interpretation:

People believe what they believe. Others do not believe and do not want the believers to believe. I am a believer and don't like that others do not want me to believe. I will quit believing only when I believe believing is impossible. Not believing what I believe is nonsense because only what I believe I’m believing is sense. If you were a believer, you would believe this.

Mccain may go crazy soon. Non-believers! Fuck!

Got it?

Hilarious! Welcome to the forums.

[devil21]

How quickly people forget the fable they were read as a young child. Google "The Tortoise and the Hare". McCain is the hare. Guess which one Paul is?

[Conza88]

How quickly people forget the fable they were read as a young child. Google "The Tortoise and the Hare". McCain is the hare. Guess which one Paul is?

He's the guy riding on his bike with the constitution in one hand, and a neo-con whipping stick in the other? :D

[Edu]

Let's be real here. There's no way a "realist" will ever get anywhere in life.

A "realist" will never take chances.

A "realist" will quit before he ever gets started.

A "realist" can't be creative (see take chances above).

A "realist" will just go along with whatever is handed to him.

A "realist" won't ask questions (see go along above).

A "realist" can't see the forest for the trees (see gives up too easy).

A "realist" leaves the ballpark before the game is finished.

A "realist" gives up way too easy (see the forest).

A "realist" is always on the side of the winning team, even if he has to switch over.

A "realist" goes home and cries to mommy all the time, even after age 30.

A "realist" is a happy government servant.

A "realist" thinks everything the government and MSM says is the truth.

A "realist" knows there is no such thing as a conspiracy unless the government says so.

[phuqig_hotband]

Let's be real here. There's no way a "realist" will ever get anywhere in life.

A "realist" will never take chances.

A "realist" will quit before he ever gets started.

A "realist" can't be creative (see take chances above).

A "realist" will just go along with whatever is handed to him.

A "realist" won't ask questions (see go along above).

A "realist" can't see the forest for the trees (see gives up too easy).

A "realist" leaves the ballpark before the game is finished.

A "realist" gives up way too easy (see the forest).

A "realist" is always on the side of the winning team, even if he has to switch over.

A "realist" goes home and cries to mommy all the time, even after age 30.

A "realist" is a happy government servant.

A "realist" thinks everything the government and MSM says is the truth.

A "realist" knows there is no such thing as a conspiracy unless the government says so.

If all of those are the case, I cannot see how a realist could ever possibly be a Ron Paul supporter.

Someone that is a "happy government servant, MSM believer, absoloute conspiracy denier, and bandwagon hopper” would never support a constitution loving promoter of individual liberty.

If you are going to call people realists and then proceed to describe a realist so, you might as well call them out and say they are not truly Ron Paul supporters. Right?

I think Ron Paul would be happy with anyone that honestly supports and contributes to the cause of liberty, even if they were lazy mamas boys.

[libertarian4321]

Once one understands what is being said, milk promptly makes way out of nose.

In my case it was beer- those bubbles tickle...

[libertarian4321]

Let's be real here. There's no way a "realist" will ever get anywhere in life.

A "realist" will never take chances.

Incorrect. A realist will take calculated risks (for example, he will invest), but he won't make "wild leaps of faith" (he won't be playing the lottery)

A "realist" will quit before he ever gets started.

Incorrect. The realist will make the effort, but when he sees that the mission is a failure, he will re-evaluate the situation and change his strategy to have the best possible effect, rather than blindly charging ahead with the original plan and refusing to change regardless of the outcome (this was the Bush strategy in Iraq- yup, he's an "optimist").

A "realist" can't be creative (see take chances above).

Incorrect. See above.

A "realist" will just go along with whatever is handed to him.

Incorrect. Just because the realist doesn't have blind, "pie in the sky" optimism doesn't mean he's a "follower."

A "realist" won't ask questions (see go along above).

Actually, its seems that its the "pie in the sky" types who get upset when someone dare stray from their orthodoxy. I haven't seen a "realist" tell anyone to "leave", but the "optimists" are trying to quell any dissension (again, see George W. Bush)

A "realist" can't see the forest for the trees (see gives up too easy).

Yeah, you'll hit that lottery number, lol- don't give up, keep buying more tickets!

A "realist" leaves the ballpark before the game is finished.

Yeah, he's home making love to his girlfriend, you're stuck in traffic for 3 hours trying to get out of the parking lot because you had to stay to make sure your team wasn't going to come back from a 30 point deficit with 2 minutes left in the game. Good call, dude...

A "realist" gives up way too easy (see the forest).

Repetitive.

A "realist" is always on the side of the winning team, even if he has to switch over.

That doesn't make sense. No one has said "vote for Obama.", the realists are just trying to refocus efforts.

A "realist" goes home and cries to mommy all the time, even after age 30.

That doesn't even make sense.

A "realist" is a happy government servant.

Again, you're not making any sense. No one here is " a happy government servant".

A "realist" thinks everything the government and MSM says is the truth.

You have completely lost touch with reality- you aren't a realist or an optimist, you are just irrational, lol.

[phuqig_hotband]

In my case it was beer- those bubbles tickle...

Ouch. At least milk is alkaline.

[Edu]

Let's be real here. There's no way a "realist" will ever get anywhere in life. (new, more real, complete and updated)

A "realist" will never take chances.
Like he will invest in safe looking things, like anything the federal reserve doles out to you that it can use to take away your labor. 2% interest, thats safe, let's be real.

A "realist" will quit before he ever gets started.
Like he will start to make the effort, but when he thinks that the mission is a failure (and he always thinks it's going to be unless it's a proven time tested worn out old boring thing) he will re-evaluate the situation and change his strategy or "refocus effort" to have the best possible SAFE wimpy effect.

A "realist" can't be creative (see take chances above).
It's not safe to be creative, enter rut, stay there, go along with the crowd.

A "realist" will just go along with whatever is handed to him.
Because the realist doesn't have creativity or any optimism means he's a "follower" and does whatever seems safe.

A "realist" won't ask questions (see go along above).
It's just not safe to question authority.

A "realist" can't see the forest for the trees (see gives up too easy).
Some other angles, can't see the big picture, doesn't understand that things can happen that aren't predicted by the limited realist view of things.

A "realist" leaves the ballpark before the game is finished.
Actually, I don't understand why a realist even goes to a game, he already knows how it will turn out, and it's never good because he's a defeatist too. Quit now, why bother?

A "realist" gives up way too easy (see the forest).

A "realist" is always on the side of the winning team, even if he has to switch over or "refocus effort" to make it seem like he's actually winning something or getting somewhere, even though he actually just gave up too soon.

A "realist" goes home and cries to mommy all the time, even after age 30.
For all the reasons above.

A "realist" is a happy government servant.
Because it's safe and cuddly.

A "realist" thinks everything the government and MSM says is the truth.
(see safe and cuddly above)

A "realist" knows there is no such thing as a conspiracy unless the government says so.
No comment, you might get taken away, that's not safe.

[libertarian4321]

Let's be real here. There's no way a "realist" will ever get anywhere in life. (new, more real, complete and updated)

A "realist" will never take chances.
Like he will invest in safe looking things, like anything the federal reserve doles out to you that it can use to take away your labor. 2% interest, thats safe, let's be real.

A "realist" will quit before he ever gets started.
Like he will start to make the effort, but when he thinks that the mission is a failure (and he always thinks it's going to be unless it's a proven time tested worn out old boring thing) he will re-evaluate the situation and change his strategy or "refocus effort" to have the best possible SAFE wimpy effect.

A "realist" can't be creative (see take chances above).
It's not safe to be creative, enter rut, stay there, go along with the crowd.

A "realist" will just go along with whatever is handed to him.
Because the realist doesn't have creativity or any optimism means he's a "follower" and does whatever seems safe.

A "realist" won't ask questions (see go along above).
It's just not safe to question authority.

A "realist" can't see the forest for the trees (see gives up too easy).
Some other angles, can't see the big picture, doesn't understand that things can happen that aren't predicted by the limited realist view of things.

A "realist" leaves the ballpark before the game is finished.
Actually, I don't understand why a realist even goes to a game, he already knows how it will turn out, and it's never good because he's a defeatist too. Quit now, why bother?

A "realist" gives up way too easy (see the forest).

A "realist" is always on the side of the winning team, even if he has to switch over or "refocus effort" to make it seem like he's actually winning something or getting somewhere, even though he actually just gave up too soon.

A "realist" goes home and cries to mommy all the time, even after age 30.
For all the reasons above.

A "realist" is a happy government servant.
Because it's safe and cuddly.

A "realist" thinks everything the government and MSM says is the truth.
(see safe and cuddly above)

A "realist" knows there is no such thing as a conspiracy unless the government says so.
No comment, you might get taken away, that's not safe.

You'll never succeed if you "do nothing", but you'll never succeed if you continue to blindly stumble forward, following a losing strategy, and refusing to acknowledge reality. To win, you need to take risks, but well reasoned risks. A winner realizes that life isn't a fairy tale- that in real life, we don't always get what we want just because we want it.

The winner adjusts his strategy when he sees that his original plan is fruitless. The blind optimist continues to stumble forward with the original plan, then looks for someone to blame when he fails.

The funny thing about unrealistic blind optimists- they'll be the first to look for someone to blame when reality finally hits them on election day and Obama (or McCain or Hillary) gets elected.

They'll blame Ron Paul, they'll blame the campaign staff, they'll blame the realists- hell, they'll blame anyone but themselves. The realists will say "well, we've known for months that Ron wasn't going to get elected- and while you were piddling around tilting at windmills, look at what we've done to help the cause of liberty!"

Just watch...

[amy31416]

They'll blame Ron Paul, they'll blame the campaign staff, they'll blame the realists- hell, they'll blame anyone but themselves. The realists will say "well, we've known for months that Ron wasn't going to get elected- and while you were piddling around tilting at windmills, look at what we've done to help the cause of liberty!"

Just watch...

That's the only reason that I have any problem with blind optimism, there is so much actual work that needs to be done and we need everybody if we're going to be successful at changing the government from the ground up.

I'm not saying to give up hope, if that hope drives you, but please support some of the other "realist" issues--like getting Sabrin, Forsythe et al elected.

In my opinion, Paul himself realizes that he won't get the nod, which is why he worked so hard to get his seat back. He is still in it because if the message gets out to more people, then there will be more people to help get these others elected. I'd be willing to bet that Ron Paul is quite the realist.

[libertarian4321]

That's the only reason that I have any problem with blind optimism, there is so much actual work that needs to be done and we need everybody if we're going to be successful at changing the government from the ground up.

I'm not saying to give up hope, if that hope drives you, but please support some of the other "realist" issues--like getting Sabrin, Forsythe et al elected.

In my opinion, Paul himself realizes that he won't get the nod, which is why he worked so hard to get his seat back. He is still in it because if the message gets out to more people, then there will be more people to help get these others elected. I'd be willing to bet that Ron Paul is quite the realist.

Ron Paul a realist?

BAN HIM FROM THE FORUMS!

:)

[uncollapse]

And as I mentioned, don't let the realists bring you down. Their intentions may not be to really do so, but hearing negative things in times like this where we can have success is never good. Continue to do what you can to become delegates, and good things CAN happen.

I think you had formulated your opening post inaccurately.

The perception of the reality of winning the GOP nomination for RP is subjective. And since this event is still slowly unfolding, one can only conjecture the likelihood of each outcome based on assesment of the current. From what i have seen, both camps have a 'sane', 'realist' and similar understanding of the current situation, they only differs in the predictive projection of future. One camp is more conservative, the other is less conservative. So a more appropriate terminological label for the two camps should be optimist vs pessimist, believer vs skeptic.

Pessimists and skeptics. Shut up. :p

[Conza88]

Edu, lol.

The "realists" here, get a kick out of thinking that they are right. Or they're the only ones that perceive the actually 'reality' of the situation.

They're faux though.

I'm the biggest realist here. Because I; LISTEN TO THE FUCKEN DELEGATES.

And I know the MSM is BULLSHIT. - They're still saying 14 delegates assholes. What is "REAL" about that?

For all the faux-realists out there, and thats pretty much every single one of you who THINKS they have some kind of better grasp on reality - rofl... here is some REALITY for you, LOSERS (by definition)

LANDSLIDE VICTORY FOR RON PAUL IN MISSOURI
http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/blog/node/92

Today in Saint Charles County Missouri, the largest Republican County caucus in the state 111 of a possible 137 Delegates were elected for Ron Paul. The St. Charles Caucus was a landslide turnout for Ron Paul. The Republican Platform was amended to oppose the Patriot Act, The Iraq war, the Federal Reserve, Fiat Currency, the Global American Empire, the income Tax, Estate Tax, McCain Fiengold, the National ID Card, The Real ID Act of 2005 and much much more.

How's about them apples?

[uncollapse]

I'm the biggest realist here. Because I; LISTEN TO THE FUCKEN DELEGATES.

And I know the MSM is BULLSHIT. - They're still saying 14 delegates assholes. What is "REAL" about that?


Slam dunk! Two version of reality. I choose the delegate's version.

Down with the fake 'realist' who based their perception on fake reality. :D

[icon124]

First of all, I'll admit that the chances of getting the nomination at the convention aren't too high. But, with what's been seen, it's certainly possible.

The "realists" often make claims that Paul will not get the nomination at all. I understand that they want to be realistic and all, but saying things like "will not", which mean a definite no, are not encouraging and very negative. They obviously don't understand the circumstances of the delegate and the process at all. Or if they do, they aren't seeing the progress we're making, at all.

You've seen several success stories on this board. And they always report there were other Paul supporters there... So obviously, just the people who come here aren't the only ones who are doing this. There may be many Paul delegates all over the nation that just aren't coming to this board to tell us how it's going. I've heard that there are many meetings in major cities for the delegates where they meet up and plan things. This can all lead to Paul delegates at the state convention, which would then pass a resolution to release McCain's delegates. Once that is done, the national delegates could be chosen, and if there is a majority of Paul delegates there, guess which delegates will be chosen to be national ones?

And it IS happening. Over the past few days, some people here have posted links to GOP leaders trying to tell local GOP leaders to be wary and careful of Paul supporters, and some are trying to make it seem we're misinforming people (I believe it was Minnesota where the GOP people were saying so, though they aren't aware of the resolutions that could be passed at the state convention). It's all very apparent they are scared of us, and that a revolution delegate-wise is happening. They wouldn't even mention it, otherwise.

Just remember, stay away from the MSM. They aren't going to report about the convention and what could happen. They're only going to announce the nominee they think will be chosen based on delegate numbers that they make up often.

And as I mentioned, don't let the realists bring you down. Their intentions may not be to really do so, but hearing negative things in times like this where we can have success is never good. Continue to do what you can to become delegates, and good things CAN happen.

yes let's not be real about the situation!!!! let's still focus on him getting the nomination and not moving foward past that because if you do your a realist and that's bad!

Sarcasm

[TruthAtLast]

You have completely lost touch with reality- you aren't a realist or an optimist, you are just irrational, lol.

QFT

[TruthAtLast]

I'm not saying to give up hope, if that hope drives you, but please support some of the other "realist" issues--like getting Sabrin, Forsythe et al elected.

In my opinion, Paul himself realizes that he won't get the nod, which is why he worked so hard to get his seat back. He is still in it because if the message gets out to more people, then there will be more people to help get these others elected. I'd be willing to bet that Ron Paul is quite the realist.

I'm not alone? There are actual people out there that have a rational thought in their head? OMG a tear just came to my eye.

There is a balance here. Realists CAN be overly cautious too.

RON PAUL is so much of a realist, in fact, that it may have affected his campaign. Based on many of the answers that Jonathan Bydlak has given, Ron Paul NOT running a campaign FULL TIME probably had the largest impact of all.

His time was extremely limited. He wasn't able to attend more fundraisers, he wasn't able to do more interviews, he wasn't able to campaign more in the early states. Many of the decisions made at HQ were based on Ron's availability.

Ron Paul was/is an acting Congressman and had previous commitments and obligations to the people he represents. As a realist, he was trying to do everything. But what a massive risk that would have been if he would have given up his seat, not run for re-election and hoped with blind faith that he would win the nomination. Ron Paul isn't without hope, he just doesn't have "blind hope".

But his pragmatic philosophy enabled him to remain in Congress. He DIDN'T throw all of his eggs in one basket. And now he is back in a position to make a difference while still pursuing the Presidential Campaign to get the Message out.

As a realist, I'm not saying that we abandon all delegate efforts. OF COURSE we should try to get as many delegates as possible. As I've said before, there are many other "realistic" goals that can be accomplished with this and I am optimistic that we can accomplish some of those goals. At the very least the goal of gaining experience in the Delegate process will be achieved no matter what the outcome. And it is very possible that in some states we could effectively change the rules for future elections. We may also be able to mold the party platform (though it will be interesting to see how the actual state conventions, the ones that matter, go).

But some (not all) of the "optimists" are saying things like "McCain WILL NOT win!" and "we can unbind delegates!" without even knowing the rules.

Come on, even most people in the optimist camp can't be endorsing that tin-foil-hat type of thinking. But when the realists see things like that, we start thinking "what the hell are you guys smoking? and where can we get some?"

Optimists generally want everyone to abandon all other projects and focus 100% of our time on that 0.000000001% chance that Ron Paul can get the nomination. That strategy is mostly out of our control anyway. Even if we did everything perfectly we might be able to narrow it down to 0.001% chance and hope that McCain snaps or has some giant scandal and that the GOP bigwigs would actually care.

And on top of all of that, I have NO DOUBT that we haven't even seen the Ace up the sleeve from the Bush Administration. Whether it is the war with Iran or some other act of terror to get America afraid and begging for McCain before November... something will happen.

Only the spineless Congress will be able to stop it, which is why many of the realists see the support of Liberty Candidates as absolutely VITAL.

I don't want the optimists to leave. I love the energy and enthusiasm. I just want them to look at the big picture and focus on a two front assault. The irony is that pushing some of these Liberty candidates to victory would be EASY compared to the other things we've been up against. The money they need is a drop in the bucket compared to the fund raising potential we are capable of. Even if some of these optimists just dedicated 10-20% of their time to it, we'd succeed.

Then again, maybe it is just hard to think rationally on an empty stomach.
Here you go:

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/29/53/23235329.jpg

[kigol]

:)

[TruthAtLast]

Edu, lol.

The "realists" here, get a kick out of thinking that they are right. Or they're the only ones that perceive the actually 'reality' of the situation.

They're faux though.

I'm the biggest realist here. Because I; LISTEN TO THE FUCKEN DELEGATES.

And I know the MSM is BULLSHIT. - They're still saying 14 delegates assholes. What is "REAL" about that?

For all the faux-realists out there, and thats pretty much every single one of you who THINKS they have some kind of better grasp on reality - rofl... here is some REALITY for you, LOSERS (by definition)

LANDSLIDE VICTORY FOR RON PAUL IN MISSOURI
http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/blog/node/92

Today in Saint Charles County Missouri, the largest Republican County caucus in the state 111 of a possible 137 Delegates were elected for Ron Paul. The St. Charles Caucus was a landslide turnout for Ron Paul. The Republican Platform was amended to oppose the Patriot Act, The Iraq war, the Federal Reserve, Fiat Currency, the Global American Empire, the income Tax, Estate Tax, McCain Fiengold, the National ID Card, The Real ID Act of 2005 and much much more.

How's about them apples?

That is very impressive and I'm proud of the Ron Paul supporters in THAT ONE COUNTY. Tell me.... how many counties are there in the United States? Please post a link to all of the counties we've already lost.

My friend's uncle used to gamble at the race track when I was growing up. And he would tell us stories about the times when he won $10k or even $50k on a single race. Damn, it sounded so exciting!!! He never told us that he lost all of his winnings or that he had lost nearly $3 million over 10 years.

I'm not saying that we are without some moral victories. But 1 or even 20 of these victories does not get you the nomination. I swear some of you haven't read the darn rules. If you tell me that we had a landslide victory at the STATE conventions in about 20 states, well that's different.

I know what you are thinking..... "yeah but if you don't start from the bottom, you can't ever have that state victory".

You're right. And that is why I have never suggested that you abandon the delegate effort. Just don't let it be the only thing you focus on because the chances are that we have a great showing and have many great victories but at the end of the day McCain is STILL likely going to be the nominee. And by then it will be too late to support many of these Liberty candidates.

[uncollapse]

That is very impressive and I'm proud of the Ron Paul supporters in THAT ONE COUNTY. Tell me.... how many counties are there in the United States? Please post a link to all of the counties we've already lost.


That one county serve to prove the 'realist', 'skeptics', 'pessimist' wrong. And why not ask what are the winning counties? They are the county of Hope, the county of Optimism, the county of Faith. i bet your county, with 'realist' like you, are on the loser list of counties, which happen to be the majority.

Sometimes the battle is within yourself. You have lost the battle mentally when you choose to construct your reality with bricks of pessimism.

[Banana]

Sometime I wonder if it's simply a matter of semantics; there are no genuine disagreements (e.g. nobody disagrees that we shouldn't pick up every delegates we can), but the disagreement over how we want to phrase our message...

If so, then I'd say let sleeping dogs lie.

[Revolution9]

For those that do no speak pirate, here is an interpretation:

People believe what they believe. Others do not believe and do not want the believers to believe. I am a believer and don't like that others do not want me to believe. I will quit believing only when I believe believing is impossible. Not believing what I believe is nonsense because only what I believe I’m believing is sense. If you were a believer, you would believe this.

Mccain may go crazy soon. Non-believers! Fuck!

Got it?

May have to get you to interpret more of my analogies for the breadthless of intellectual faculty. I believe..therefore I am.. How much simpler can it get.. Right fucking now..like there is any other time to consider. I leave footprints and cast projections to alter realty.

BTW..McCain == effed. Believe it.

Best Regards
Randy

[jacobin]

First of all, I'll admit that the chances of getting the nomination at the convention aren't too high. But, with what's been seen, it's certainly possible.

Find out what the State Convention rules are on switching bound delegates to non-bound. If there is a process for that, I'd believe that's the best chance.

Otherwise, delusions of grandeur doesn't help at all. Find the battles we can win and focus on those. I'm happy with Ron Paul's campaign -- he started the REVOLUTION and brought us all together. However, if Murray Sabrin loses the U.S. Senate seat I'll be severely disappointed as HE CAN WIN.

[Zera]

Find out what the State Convention rules are on switching bound delegates to non-bound. If there is a process for that, I'd believe that's the best chance.

Yeah, thats basically what we're doing.

[syborius]

Sigh... I make a topic telling people to not be let down by them, and two just come here and continue to troll.

Go away.

Don't worry, these are professionals, and they already have a very clear history of what their agenda is, if you are suspicious of a troll, or something just doesn't seem right, go read 10-15 posts by them, it's usually very revealing of what side of the fence they actually sit on. They come into any thread that brings hope and try to dismantle it with negativity and venom, so EFFFFFFF them.

[flames2dust77]

Let's be real here. There's no way a "realist" will ever get anywhere in life. (new, more real, complete and updated)

A "realist" will never take chances.
Like he will invest in safe looking things, like anything the federal reserve doles out to you that it can use to take away your labor. 2% interest, thats safe, let's be real.

A "realist" will quit before he ever gets started.
Like he will start to make the effort, but when he thinks that the mission is a failure (and he always thinks it's going to be unless it's a proven time tested worn out old boring thing) he will re-evaluate the situation and change his strategy or "refocus effort" to have the best possible SAFE wimpy effect.

A "realist" can't be creative (see take chances above).
It's not safe to be creative, enter rut, stay there, go along with the crowd.

A "realist" will just go along with whatever is handed to him.
Because the realist doesn't have creativity or any optimism means he's a "follower" and does whatever seems safe.

A "realist" won't ask questions (see go along above).
It's just not safe to question authority.

A "realist" can't see the forest for the trees (see gives up too easy).
Some other angles, can't see the big picture, doesn't understand that things can happen that aren't predicted by the limited realist view of things.

A "realist" leaves the ballpark before the game is finished.
Actually, I don't understand why a realist even goes to a game, he already knows how it will turn out, and it's never good because he's a defeatist too. Quit now, why bother?

A "realist" gives up way too easy (see the forest).

A "realist" is always on the side of the winning team, even if he has to switch over or "refocus effort" to make it seem like he's actually winning something or getting somewhere, even though he actually just gave up too soon.

A "realist" goes home and cries to mommy all the time, even after age 30.
For all the reasons above.

A "realist" is a happy government servant.
Because it's safe and cuddly.

A "realist" thinks everything the government and MSM says is the truth.
(see safe and cuddly above)

A "realist" knows there is no such thing as a conspiracy unless the government says so.
No comment, you might get taken away, that's not safe.

these are so far off the mark.

[Anyeong]

I've read for the past few days and noticed almost the same group of people trying to stick their heads up and say they're just being realistic, shame on them. Ron Paul's achievements so far have been unrealistic, as to say that most people wouldn't of believed that he'd get this much support and donation from the start, even Paul himself was in disbelief at one point. As Ron Paul's chances of getting nomination are slim, of course we'll have doubters and supporters becoming pessimistic, that's why it's even more important that we have unrealistic optimism to keep going and make sure that slim chance doesn't get even MORE SLIM THAN IT IS.

Overall, I agree that these "reality theorist" are hurting this campaign, new comers, and current supporters one way or another. I mean come on, we already have enough of the negativity coming from the outside, why continue fueling it from within? These people are just draining other people to feel as low and unhappy as them, I won't be, I'll keep my head up and continue supporting this movement and Ron Paul alike till' the end.

[TruthAtLast]

Don't worry, these are professionals, and they already have a very clear history of what their agenda is, if you are suspicious of a troll, or something just doesn't seem right, go read 10-15 posts by them, it's usually very revealing of what side of the fence they actually sit on. They come into any thread that brings hope and try to dismantle it with negativity and venom, so EFFFFFFF them.

I have never tried to hide what my "agenda" is; to push this Movement forward and give thousands of dollars in donations to the presidential campaign, congressional campaign, nearly a dozen liberty candidates, billboards, radio stations, TV ads, blimps, nascars, multiple books, various PACs, and virtually any other idea that people have that require some sort of financial backing. You're right... I'm a PROFESSIONAL supporter of this Movement and my agenda is CLEAR.

Some people haven't read a single word of what I've been saying.

Maybe bullet points will help


DO NOT give up the delegate process. There is much more to gain than just a nomination.
DO be realistic about our chances just to the point where we are at least ALSO supporting other Liberty candidates in parallel.
Though we have seen victories and it does prove that at least we might be able to make some platform changes and show the strength of the message, DO NOT jump to conclusions into thinking that McCain can not win. (not pointing fingers but some people have been saying this)


If you agree with those things, then we agree with each other. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

People keep throwing out the word troll without knowing the meaning.


Troll - someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, usually with the intention of baiting someone into an emotional response.

The fact that we are talking about politics means that most things are going to be controversial. But none of these things are off-topic.

If the intention is to bait an emotion response, I have to wonder if some of these Optimists are really trolls due to the emotional response they have incited from the Realists. When someone titles a thread "Don't let the Realists bring you down".... THEY ARE BAITING AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE, and BY DEFINITION.... they are a troll.

I thought we were reaching some sort of common ground (at least with Banana) then you come in and post something that is (again, by definition) a troll message that is completely irrational and has the sole intent of baiting an emotional response (like this one).

I can only conclude that your responses are either born out of ignorance or malicious intent. It is hard to believe that a Ron Paul supporter could be that ignorant so you MUST therefore be trying to incite hatred and division within the Movement. Sounds like a troll to me.

[Magicman]

Btw, I do think it's pretty obnoxious for people to continue to insert their negative views so they could funnel others to think their way. If people are trying to continue to influence and win over their caucuses let them do it. It's none of your concern.

What is your point and what is gained by doing trying to stake out others for trying? So what, you think you're right; even if you are then just feel that way and act on it but don't try to tell others what to think.

Your authoritative views sound like an annoying Giuliani. It's rather pointless drivel because you're not doing any good and if others want to try then let them do it. Noone cares about your ego telling others that their disillusioned because they are attmepting to do so.

Regardless of the outcome, noone knows for certain, and even so it's better to try then do nothing what else is there to lose? So, go start your own negative thread but let people follow the course of their choosing. It's not up to YOU to decide how others should think or involve themselves with the campaign.

[syborius]

I have never tried to hide what my "agenda" is; to push this Movement forward and give thousands of dollars in donations to the presidential campaign, congressional campaign, nearly a dozen liberty candidates, billboards, radio stations, TV ads, blimps, nascars, multiple books, various PACs, and virtually any other idea that people have that require some sort of financial backing. You're right... I'm a PROFESSIONAL supporter of this Movement and my agenda is CLEAR.

Some people haven't read a single word of what I've been saying.

Maybe bullet points will help


DO NOT give up the delegate process. There is much more to gain than just a nomination.
DO be realistic about our chances just to the point where we are at least ALSO supporting other Liberty candidates in parallel.
Though we have seen victories and it does prove that at least we might be able to make some platform changes and show the strength of the message, DO NOT jump to conclusions into thinking that McCain can not win. (not pointing fingers but some people have been saying this)


If you agree with those things, then we agree with each other. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

People keep throwing out the word troll without knowing the meaning.


Troll - someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, usually with the intention of baiting someone into an emotional response.

The fact that we are talking about politics means that most things are going to be controversial. But none of these things are off-topic.

If the intention is to bait an emotion response, I have to wonder if some of these Optimists are really trolls due to the emotional response they have incited from the Realists. When someone titles a thread "Don't let the Realists bring you down".... THEY ARE BAITING AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE, and BY DEFINITION.... they are a troll.

I thought we were reaching some sort of common ground (at least with Banana) then you come in and post something that is (again, by definition) a troll message that is completely irrational and has the sole intent of baiting an emotional response (like this one).

I can only conclude that your responses are either born out of ignorance or malicious intent. It is hard to believe that a Ron Paul supporter could be that ignorant so you MUST therefore be trying to incite hatred and division within the Movement. Sounds like a troll to me.


All I can say is that you are just a HUGE PIECE OF SHIT!!! You walk into a thread, create a big fucking stink with your realism (negativity, venom, division), and then claim absolute ignorance over what you are doing. Do you really think people are that stupid. What the hell is your fucking point you piece of shit? What exact purpose does it have to deflate any hope some of these people might have regarding county convention wins???

Answer me what fucking purpose do you serve you asshole?? If people want to claim as many victories as they want let them. Next time I see your negativity and horse-shit I will call you out on it again. Your above post is so transparent it's really starting to become good satire. Each time I call you out on your horseshit you write a masters thesis on how your realism is perfectly fine. Fuck you!

[phuqig_hotband]

"Btw, I do think it's pretty obnoxious for people to continue to insert their negative views so they could funnel others to think their way. If people are trying to continue to influence and win over their caucuses let them do it. It's none of your concern."

Its known as debate. Look it up.

"What is your point and what is gained by doing trying to stake out others for trying? So what, you think you're right; even if you are then just feel that way and act on it but don't try to tell others what to think."

When people are attacked for their positions, are they not allowed to defend themselves? If the OP didn’t want to stir up debate, this thread should not have been posted. It is humorous you accuse the realists of "thinking that they are right." That accusation is kind of silly. The only reason debate exists is because people have opposing viewpoints (think they are right.)

"Your authoritative views sound like an annoying Giuliani. It's rather pointless drivel because you're not doing any good and if others want to try then let them do it. Noone cares about your ego telling others that their disillusioned because they are attmepting to do so."

You are making a lot of assumptions. At this point you are just attacking the little caricature of your opponent that you have created in your head. You don’t know the motivations of everyone here and you are not very good at guessing.

"Regardless of the outcome, noone knows for certain, and even so it's better to try then do nothing what else is there to lose? So, go start your own negative thread but let people follow the course of their choosing. It's not up to YOU to decide how others should think or involve themselves with the campaign."

Nobody is saying, "Give up." That is completely baseless. So far all of the realists here have said to continue to get as many delegates as possible. What is the point of creating this thread if debate wasn’t hoped for. Isn’t that the point of a forum? Was the OP just hoping to preach to the choir and gain comfort in knowing that other people think like him/her?

This is politics. Quit being so damn sensitive. How do you expect to handle the supporters of other candidates if you can’t even handle somebody that mostly agrees with you? This isn’t a nice little world we live in where everybody is nice to each other and our benevolent Shepard vanquishes evil to the depths of hell on an annual basis. Grow some thicker skin man/woman and learn to convince people of what you think instead of telling them to go away while hiding in your protective shell.

[phuqig_hotband]

All I can say is that you are just a HUGE PIECE OF SHIT!!! You walk into a thread, create a big fucking stink with your realism (negativity, venom, division), and then claim absolute ignorance over what you are doing. Do you really think people are that stupid. What the hell is your fucking point you piece of shit? What exact purpose does it have to deflate any hope some of these people post regarding county convention wins??? Answer me what fucking purpose do you server you asshole?? If people want to claim as many victories as they want let them. Next time I see your negativity and horse-shit I will call you out on it again. Your above post is so transparent it's really starting to become good satire. Each time I call you out on your horseshit you write a masters thesis on how your realism is perfectly fine. Fuck you!

That is uncalled for. He whose ideas have failed him casts the first stone.

[uncollapse]

The "I-know-better-than-you-what's-best-for-the-movement" attitude as expressed in the obnoxious "what you are doing are unrealistic, counter productive and you should be doing this and that" outcries sort of mirrors the way our government takes our money with the assumption "we-know-how-to-better-spend-your-money-for-the-common-good".

[phuqig_hotband]

The "I-know-better-than-you-what's-best-for-the-movement" attitude as expressed in the obnoxious "what you are doing are unrealistic, counter productive and you should be doing this and that" outcries sort of mirrors the way our government takes our money with the assumption "we-know-how-to-better-spend-your-money-for-the-common-good".

You are throwing stones from a glass house buddy. Again, the only reason debate/politics exist is because of opposing viewpoints. Both "realists" and "Idealists" think they know what is best for the movement. To compare either side to collectivist centralized government is just silly.

[TruthAtLast]

All I can say is that you are just a HUGE PIECE OF SHIT!!! You walk into a thread, create a big fucking stink with your realism (negativity, venom, division), and then claim absolute ignorance over what you are doing. Do you really think people are that stupid. What the hell is your fucking point you piece of shit? What exact purpose does it have to deflate any hope some of these people might have regarding county convention wins???

Answer me what fucking purpose do you serve you asshole?? If people want to claim as many victories as they want let them. Next time I see your negativity and horse-shit I will call you out on it again. Your above post is so transparent it's really starting to become good satire. Each time I call you out on your horseshit you write a masters thesis on how your realism is perfectly fine. Fuck you!

i'm hoping that some day you'll have a real argument and actually make sense. Yet again... you refuse to read and comprehend anything.

You can't have a rational argument with irrational people. I'm clearly speaking to someone so clouded with anger and ignorance that he is incapable of forming any kind of logical rebuttal.

I'm neither being negative or unsupportive. How hard is it to understand that we should be doing TWO things. Getting delegates AND supporting Liberty Candidates. Are you seriously so obtuse as not to understand that fundamental concept?

IN FACT, because Ron Paul is also a realist and has the same views as what I'm saying, I suppose your little childish rant was directed at him..... good to know where you stand.

[syborius]

notice that the realists are always registered feb, and march, the most ardent realists that fight tooth and nail to deflate peoples hope......

[TruthAtLast]

notice that the realists are always registered feb, and march, the most ardent realists that fight tooth and nail to deflate peoples hope......


notice how all of the people like you are always using that as your only argument because there is nothing else you can say.

[flames2dust77]

some of you are equating a pessimist to a realist.

[syborius]

i'm hoping that some day you'll have a real argument and actually make sense. Yet again... you refuse to read and comprehend anything.

You can't have a rational argument with irrational people. I'm clearly speaking to someone so clouded with anger and ignorance that he is incapable of forming any kind of logical rebuttal.

I'm neither being negative or unsupportive. How hard is it to understand that we should be doing TWO things. Getting delegates AND supporting Liberty Candidates. Are you seriously so obtuse as not to understand that fundamental concept?

IN FACT, because Ron Paul is also a realist and has the same views as what I'm saying, I suppose your little childish rant was directed at him..... good to know where you stand.



Notice you didn't answer me. What purpose do you serve on this thread? Why did you interject yourself into this discussion? WHY? I ask you again. If someone wants to post 10000 threads about convention county wins, why is it so important for you to walk into a thread and say there is no chance, that the movement should focus elsewhere, that it's not about the nomination when clearly you have thousands of people still fighting hard for Ron Paul. Tell me, What purpose did your point of view on realism serve this thread, this movement, and the good people that are trying to stay positive?

[uncollapse]

You are throwing stones from a glass house buddy. Again, the only reason debate/politics exist is because of opposing viewpoints. Both "realists" and "Idealists" think they know what is best for the movement. To compare either side to collectivist centralized government is just silly.

Welcome to the idiotcradential debate between the Idealist party and the Realist party. The Idealist believes in getting delegates to GOP, the Realist believes in getting candidates to GOP.

The debate topic is "should the Realist party stop spewing negativity in the Idealist party".

How interesting is this debate? I suggest the Idealist party should start spewing similar negativity in the Realist party so that someday we can have a similar debate,

"should the Idealist party stop spewing negativity in the Realist party".

[phuqig_hotband]

Notice you didn't answer me. What purpose do you serve on this thread? Why did you interject yourself into this discussion? WHY? I ask you again. If someone wants to post 10000 threads about convention county wins, why is it so important for you to walk into a thread and say there is no chance, that the movement should focus elsewhere, that it's not about the nomination when clearly you have thousands of people still fighting hard for Ron Paul. Tell me, What purpose did your point of view on realism serve this thread, this movement, and the good people that are trying to stay positive?

Please read what he posted again. He already answered what his agenda is. He already answered why he interjected himself into this discussion. He is still fighting for Ron Paul. You are just arguing in circles.

[Banana]

It is with utter regret and unforunate disappointment that I must face the brutual reality of the situation:

We are in a middle of a pissing contest (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=124732).


Now, just suppose we put away our equipment, zip up our pants and dispose of that piss-can and agree that we're all Ron Paul Republicans and will work to pick up all delegates, supporting other liberty candidates and doing what we can, while refraining from infighting?

[TheEngineer]

Regardless of how we feel about Dr. Paul's chances at the convention, I know we can ALL agree that we need to advocate for liberty. Everyone, PLEASE advocate for freedom and liberty at every opportunity. Make sure Congress hears that there really are people who want government off their backs!!

I have a leadership role in the fight against federal attempts to pass a prohibition against Internet poker...a fight strongly supported by Ron Paul. I have a thread on it at http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1231355 . In that thread, you'll find that you can write to Congress to tell them how you feel about big government "protecting" you from yourself in only sixty seconds. The letter is on the Poker Players Alliance website, at http://capwiz.com/pokerplayersalliance/issues/alert/?alertid=10418046&type=co . You can also find information for calling and for handwriting your own letter.

IMO, if everyone here takes the time to fight for freedom on the ground by advocating for freedom at every opportunity, we'll win the long-term fight.


Thanks.

[phuqig_hotband]

Welcome to the idiotcradential debate between the Idealist party and the Realist party. The Idealist believes in getting delegates to GOP, the Realist believes in getting candidates to GOP.

The debate topic is "should the Realist party stop spewing negativity in the Idealist party".

How interesting is this debate? I suggest the Idealist party should start spewing similar negativity in the Realist party so that someday we can have a similar debate,

"should the Idealist party stop spewing negativity in the Realist party".

Who on this thread said that they dont want to get Ron Paul delegates to the convention?

[TruthAtLast]

Notice you didn't answer me. What purpose do you serve on this thread? Why did you interject yourself into this discussion? WHY? I ask you again. If someone wants to post 10000 threads about convention county wins, why is it so important for you to walk into a thread and say there is no chance, that the movement should focus elsewhere, that it's not about the nomination when clearly you have thousands of people still fighting hard for Ron Paul. Tell me, What purpose did your point of view on realism serve this thread, this movement, and the good people that are trying to stay positive?

why did I enter this thread? Because it was counter productive and an ATTACK on the entire Movement including Ron Paul to alienate the whole other side of this Movement.

I have never said there is NO chance. There is just very little chance and most of you agree with me on that. I have also listed MULTIPLE times the great reasons for getting delegates and continuing the process. I keep saying we should not give up that process.

I love the results we've had and I've said so. I love the fact that we might be able to change the rules for future elections and possibly change the platform. I love the fact that it is a showing of the strength of the liberty message (which is the reason why Ron Paul is still in this race).

Is it really so hard for you to support other Liberty Candidates when Ron Paul ASKS you to; when Ron Paul himself has said that this is "NOT the Ron Paul Revolution" and is "BIGGER THAN ONE MAN"? Why do you absolutely REFUSE to listen to reason? Heck, don't listen to me.... Listen to Ron Paul!!!!!!!!!!

[uncollapse]

some of you are equating a pessimist to a realist.

The GOP convention is not over yet. So what are you basing your reality on? You are merely projecting into the FUTURE base on your assessment of current events. And being pessimistic about the upcoming GOP convention makes you a pessimist. 'Realist' is just a terminology you use to cover-up for your lack of faith in a possible victory in the upcoming GOP convention, no matter how slim the probablity.

[phuqig_hotband]

The GOP convention is not over yet. So what are you basing your reality on? You are merely projecting into the FUTURE base on your assessment of current events. And being pessimistic about the upcoming GOP convention makes you a pessimist. 'Realist' is just a terminology you use to cover-up for your lack of faith in a possible victory in the upcoming GOP convention, no matter how slim the probablity.

Sounds like all of these labels and definitions are getting kind of vague.

[syborius]

QFT

Darn people want to keep holding on to the million-to-one odds and dump money into the slot machine hoping it will pay off, when there are REAL tangible things they can be doing to help the MOVEMENT.

Amazing how many so called "supporters" fail to listen to the man they claim to be supporting.

You are proving to be quite devious in your wording and trolling. RP said himself this is about getting as many votes and as many delegates as possible, he hasn't dropped out, we are going to the convention. So again, what purpose do those words above serve us? How exactly does interjecting your realism here help us...Please explain, because it not only baffles me, but what baffles me more is you write a 10 page report on WHY you are always right when people raise concerns... So again, how does the above rhetoric help anyone?

[TruthAtLast]

You are proving to be quite devious in your wording and trolling. RP said himself this is about getting as many votes and as many delegates as possible, he hasn't dropped out, we are going to the convention. So again, what purpose do those words above serve us? How exactly does interjecting your realism here help us...Please explain, because it not only baffles me, but what baffles me more is you write a 10 page report on WHY you are always right when people raise concerns... So again, how does the above rhetoric help anyone?

how much more plain can I be? Go back and read my posts. Do you want me to keep saying it 20 different ways until one of them sinks in?

Go take a walk, get a glass of water, calm down, then come back and re-read what I've said.


You want delegates.... I want delegates (though possibly for different reasons).
You want to promote the message of freedom.... I want to promote the message of freedom.
You (and others) want people to dedicate 100% of their time to getting delegates and anything less is "giving up" and "spreading negativity" .... I think we should ALSO be supporting candidates that can really make a difference in Congress... not only because it hedges our bets and is an inevitable bridge we'll have to cross, but also because, well, Ron Paul TOLD us to.

[uncollapse]

You are throwing stones from a glass house buddy. Again, the only reason debate/politics exist is because of opposing viewpoints. Both "realists" and "Idealists" think they know what is best for the movement. To compare either side to collectivist centralized government is just silly.

Good for the 'Pessimists' if they think they have a better grasp of the reality. For the 'Optimists', they probably already know that it is going to be an uphill battle. If the pessimist have nothing constructive to add than just repeating the 'realism' chorus, they would be better off to just stop talking and listen to Black eyed peas. Else, be prepared to take the heat from these 'optimist'. When you have stake your all into something you believe is for a good cause but with little hope of achieving it, the last thing you want is to lose that only hope.

[phuqig_hotband]

Good for the 'Pessimists' if they think they have a better grasp of the reality. For the 'Optimists', they probably already know that it is going to be an uphill battle. If the pessimist have nothing constructive to add than just repeating the 'realism' chorus, they would be better off to just stop talking and listen to Black eyed peas. Else, be prepared to take the heat from these 'optimist'. When you have stake your all into something you believe is for a good cause but with little hope of achieving it, the last thing you want is to lose that only hope.

Ugh, such self-righteous and presumptuous statement that is. I am sure you could find common ground with the evil realists.

[TruthAtLast]

have nothing constructive to add than just repeating the 'realism' chorus, they would be better off to just stop talking and listen to Black eyed peas.

Isn't the "constructive" thing some of these people have been adding, the fact that we should also be supporting Liberty Candidates? I don't think that is a loss of hope, it is just shifting strategy as any campaign does. We all want the Movement to continue.

Didn't Ron Paul himself shift strategy to secure his Congressional seat? Didn't he hedge his bets and make sure that he was doing both?

If some pessimists are saying there is no hope in the Movement or that we should completely abandon getting all delegates... then I DO NOT support that. That kind of attitude is not productive and definitely hurts us. But many of the so call "realists" are not giving up hope, but rather are trying to shift direction and help the Movement in the "next phase". Can we fault them for such forethought and determination? What is so wrong with helping other candidates like Brent Sanders, Sabrin, and others? How is that giving up hope?

[satchelmcqueen]

yeah the whole "we cant win" thing is just to much negativity. if you cant support this campaing anymore, then get out. dont bring eveyone else down to your defeated mentallity. paul can still win this and probably will IMO, but the defeated attitudes here will not help paul at all. just keep your mouth shut if you cant bring pauls words up a notch in the public opinion. these "he cant win" people are the vey people who give up on most anything in life if it involves a fight or hard work. we have 6 months to go before the delegates are even decided. come on people!!! Support Paul or GET OFF THE BOARDS!!! We dont need your negative words here.

[TheTyke]

Firstly the "realist" in the title had "s because it was sarcastic. It is actually referring to the pessimists who keep posting, and right now I am bloody fed up with the pessimism.

You want to know why? Because at our county convention, we could've had 30-40 supporters show up and completely dominate. Many I know for a fact stayed home because Ron Paul "couldn't win". (As it was, we still got the majority of delegates.) If it weren't for all the pessimists following the media opinion like ever so many bleeting sheep, we could have owned almost every convention, at every level. I, and many others, understand this is a long process, and not just about the presidency. But most people don't, and most voters don't. That is why negativity is a continual drain on our numbers. I know at least a 3 to 1 ratio (to myself and active voters) who like Ron Paul, but do nothing because they don't think he can win.

Many didn't vote in the primaries for the same reason. We could have had primary wins without the deliberately fostered defeatism as well.

Negativity is the single worst drag that this campaign has ever had, based on my experience.

Blind optimists are almost as dangerous - if they think it will be ok even if they do nothing. But these have had far less effect than the negative people - and the negativity springs forth from the media engine which is our enemy.

You have 4+ major news networks spreading your defeatist message. Don't bring it here, this is a place for people to come for motivation, planning, and moral support.

If you're a disappointed Ron Paul fan - please leave us in peace to continue our work. If you're paid to bring our spirits down, for the sake of the country, and please find another job (while there are still some available).

Thank you.

[uncollapse]

Isn't the "constructive" thing some of these people have been adding, the fact that we should also be supporting Liberty Candidates? I don't think that is a loss of hope, it is just shifting strategy as any campaign does. We all want the Movement to continue.


Some people believe that RP can still win this thing. So they will not be lured into anything other than getting as many delegates as possible into the convention. Your constant repetition of the "realism" chorus is bordering on irritating.

[TruthAtLast]

Some people believe that RP can still win this thing. So they will not be lured into anything other than getting as many delegates as possible into the convention. Your constant repetition of the "realism" chorus is bordering on irritating.

man, nobody's heard of multi-tasking and doing both? I mean, REALLY... when Ron Paul asks these people to get delegates AND support other candidates they still refuse? Maybe that is what bothers me. It isn't me asking... it is Dr. Paul asking for this and people have selective hearing.

[rajibo]

But many of the so call "realists" are not giving up hope, but rather are trying to shift direction and help the Movement in the "next phase". Can we fault them for such forethought and determination? What is so wrong with helping other candidates like Brent Sanders, Sabrin, and others? How is that giving up hope?

That describes my philosophy. Is that such a bad thing????

Engage!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saDs-Phgluk)

[uncollapse]

Ugh, such self-righteous and presumptuous statement that is. I am sure you could find common ground with the evil realists.

Oh yeah, another meaningless statement that serves no purpose whatsoever. And 'realist' is an understatement. they are the 'pessimist'. And what might surprise you is i am actually pessimistic about a RP win. But i have the decency to not carelessly spew my cans of negativity in the face of these "almost extinct" bunch of liberty believers who still clung on to the belief that RP can still win.

[uncollapse]

man, nobody's heard of multi-tasking and doing both? I mean, REALLY... when Ron Paul asks these people to get delegates AND support other candidates they still refuse? Maybe that is what bothers me. It isn't me asking... it is Dr. Paul asking for this and people have selective hearing.

Why don't you also preach the vice versa to your 'realist' camp? Tell them to multi-task and get as many delegates to the convention so RP can win. Yeah.. i know.. you will come back with your same old 'realism' chorus again... pls don't force me to spill out the H*p*o***** word.

[TruthAtLast]

Why don't you also preach the vice versa to your 'realist' camp?

Huh? I have no "camp". I'm hoping that everyone can multi-task and everyone would do both. That's been my point. :)

[flames2dust77]

The GOP convention is not over yet. So what are you basing your reality on? You are merely projecting into the FUTURE base on your assessment of current events. And being pessimistic about the upcoming GOP convention makes you a pessimist. 'Realist' is just a terminology you use to cover-up for your lack of faith in a possible victory in the upcoming GOP convention, no matter how slim the probablity.

When have I been a pessimist about the convention? i have stated several times all over this forum I am open to anything...and if you go back and read my actual comments to this post you see that I said there is still hope. It's like none of you actually read any of the comments...you attack character instead of issues. My stance is basic and has never changed; keep rounding up delegates if you live in a state that has not had their primary. At the same time I feel that we should also be thinking of what comes after the RNC. I have NEVER, and I can only speak for myself, told the OP or any other person that thinks like him to give up on what they believe in. I have never claimed to know the outcome of the RNC....I do not know that. So don't YOU sit there and tell me how I think. You do not know my intentions, you do not know anything I have done within this movement, you do not know my heart. Not one of you has answered questions that I posed earlier in the post. QUESTIONS I'm asking in order to better understand where you all are coming from. But alas, ppl just want to argue. This can't even be considered a debate because character in stead of issues are being attacked.

Wow, I guess we can just make it easier on you guys....ATTENTION: all the realists or whatever we've been labeled....STOP thinking one step ahead. STOP promoting RP republicans for congress. STOP donating to them. STOP trying to brainstorm new ideas of how to bring new blood and support into the movement. LET'S AAALLLL subscribe to "group think." Let's just hope and pray to the god's the delegate situation pans out. If it doesn't...well, we'll worry about that when it gets here. Let's just stop all the work we're doing now...this movement doesn't need anything to fall back on. Group think is great...if we all think exactly the same and some of us never step outside of the box....surely we'll get so much more accomplished.</sarcasm>

I have made suggestions and tried to be sound with my reasoning...but yet some of you can turn around and call it "trolling and spewing venom." I take great offense to that. I really do! Venom? Poison? Wow. And you expect the realist to stay out of your thread and not defend themselves? I'm sorry, but that's extremely hurtful to hear from someone you're on the same team with...working for the cause of liberty and freedom. You work your ass of and someone decides to say you're an evil troll?! WTF! Bet your bottom dollar you're going to get ppl defending themselves. :rolleyes:

Gawd, and as a matter of fact...the ppl who are being jumped on for "injecting venom" have been pretty decent in trying to explain why we think the way we think. We haven't rudely told anyone to go away, or call them trolls, or pieces of shit, etc...like some of the optimists running around here. Get a grip. No one is telling you to give up anything. But w/that...if you attack a group of ppl....expect a rebuttal.

[Banana]

I'm really thinking the thread has gone to shits with all this silly infighting.

How come this get more attention than recent victories, or commentaries on events pertaining to the movement?

[flames2dust77]

Huh? I have no "camp". I'm hoping that everyone can multi-task and everyone would do both. That's been my point. :)

exactly. multi-task. there ya go:)

[phuqig_hotband]

I'm really thinking the thread has gone to shits with all this silly infighting.

How come this get more attention than recent victories, or commentaries on events pertaining to the movement?

You are right. This discussion is not getting anywhere. Time to take a rest, but I'll leave with one last note. Exclusion or separation of pseudo factions will be the end of this movement. Success will not be had without some level of inclusiveness. We should all work on tolerating the views of others instead of using derogatory labels and definitions to explain what we do not completely understand.

[TheTyke]

F2D - although you seem to have gotten lumped in with the so-called "realists", I think you can tell that our frustration is not aimed at you. It's people who post negative remarks in any positive thread, and angrily demand that we stop being positive.

I haven't kept track of the names. But every thread seems to get bogged down by them.

[uncollapse]

Exclusion or separation of pseudo factions will be the end of this movement. Success will not be had without some level of inclusiveness. We should all work on tolerating the views of others instead of using derogatory labels and definitions to explain what we do not completely understand.

On this, I cannot agree more. :)

[flames2dust77]

F2D - although you seem to have gotten lumped in with the so-called "realists", I think you can tell that our frustration is not aimed at you. It's people who post negative remarks in any positive thread, and angrily demand that we stop being positive.

I haven't kept track of the names. But every thread seems to get bogged down by them.

Indeed, I know the majority of it is not directed at me....but my last response was to someone who used me in a quote. I don't play that game. Do not assume you know anything about me. AND, there are others on this post who think along the same lines as I do...and they are getting thrown under the bus over and over...of course I'm going t defend some of them....they're doing nothing wrong. They are stating their opinions along with some rational reason for having those opinions. Like someone said above...this is not getting anywhere. The infighting will surely be our demise.

[phree]

nevermind

[Conza88]

Please post a link to all of the counties we've already lost.

I love it mate, this sums up your whole perspective on life.

Is the glass half full or half empty?

For you, and your damn negativity. You would not only dismiss the notion that a glass even exists, you'd perceive yourself in a desert with cactuses, with no humanity or water in sight. You're only moments from death, you do nothing but break down and cry like a child - tears fill your eyes, you become blinded by the dust and sand. You've given up, and lost all hope.

What is the point of carrying on? What else is there to do, but whine, moan and groan like a little bitch?

What you FAIL to see, or even CONSIDER for a second, is that the open - baron "reality", the one you LOVE so much... is just that; an APPEARANCE of reality, yet there IS an alternate reality, BENEATH the surface, one that you have to find, and search for.

If you had only kept your eyes open, if only you remained calm and level headed, if you realised the correct "reality" of the situation... you would have survived, you would have lived, you would have realized - all you had to do, was break open a cactus and you've got all the water you need.


I know what you are thinking..... "yeah but if you don't start from the bottom, you can't ever have that state victory".

Hahahaha. If you knew what I was thinking... you'd do what you do best, and that is GIVING UP - i.e You'd quit trolling. (By definition its what you are doing in this thread)



You're right.

Thank you. :D

Now time to leave this thread with a gem;

Hey negative assholes, this is why YOU LOSE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyBbfjEztiE

And RON PAUL WINS!

LANDSLIDE VICTORY FOR RON PAUL IN MISSOURI
http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com/blog/node/92

Delegate Reality
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/36650

Straight Talk from a Texas Meetup
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/41322

A good day in Douglas County Colorado for Ron Paul
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/40698

Ron Paul Wins In Texas
http://people.ronpaul2008.com/campaign-updates

Ron Paul Republicans Take Over Alaska GOP
http://www.paulunteer.com/ron-paul-s...a-conventions/

Just a few, recent ones. Take you're pick, tools. :D

[Revolution9]

Cynicism has become a supreme sign of intelligence. Compulsive skepticism masquerades as perceptiveness. Mean-spirited irony is chic. Beautiful truths are suspect and ugly truths are popular. Can someone turn this thing right side up please.. I personally am tired of everything being flipped on its head when i take a gander around.

Thanks
Randy

[SilentBull]

What a waste of time it is to be talking about this. Obviously the chances are slim and we should keep trying until the very end. But we all know Ron Paul didn't run to win. He's already won.

We should be focusing on people like Murray Sabrin and the others. We should be focusing on getting into the party ourselves.

Ron Paul already got the ball rolling. Stop thinking about the presidency. That wasn't his plan. Don't ruin it by being stubborn. Let's work on phase II.

[TruthAtLast]

Conza88... certainly it is difficult to argue against that level of ignorance and unwavering irrationality.

The glass is half full by the way. But I'm not going to say it is half full if there were only two drops of water at the bottom. That is the difference between you and I. I'll go find another source for water, while you will blindly keep telling yourself that the glass if full and ultimately die when you finally realize there are only two drops.

You resort to name calling when there is nothing left to prop up your argument. You speak of alternate realities as if we could just all hold hands and THINK about Ron Paul getting the nomination, and suddenly it happens. Yes, there are paradigm shifts that need to occur to wake people up, but it must be equally balanced with reason. The whole "think it and so shall it be" is not meant to be taken LITERALLY. It is an idiom for being positive and not falling pray to self doubt. Realists are also positive and do not doubt that there are solutions, they just aren't blinded to the world around them.

There is a fine line between optimism and fanaticism as if a person would just charge into a hailstorm of bullets being "optimistic" that the bullets will just miss while holding onto that slim hope of survival.

This kind of carless and nearsighted direction that has little foundation of reason is the same line of thinking that the Bush Administration evangelizes about the Iraq war. No matter how many lives are lost and no matter how impossible and irrational the current situation is, they ignore it all and stay "steadfast" in their plan.

I wish you the best and I really DO hope that everything you are fighting for comes true... for I, like all "realists", want what you want. Of course we would love the impossible (or at least improbable) to happen. Of course we would want some miracle scenario in which Ron Paul can somehow get the nomination. We just aren't willing to stake the ENTIRE future of our Movement on that dream. Coincidentally, neither is Ron Paul which is why he focused on getting reelected to Congress and is telling us to support other Congressional candidates as well. But you don't listen to him. You don't listen to the man you are fighting for.

But IF it doesn't work out for you after throwing all of your eggs into a single basket, I can only pray that you haven't set back the Movement another 2-4 years because of your absolute REFUSAL to listen to Dr. Paul and ALSO support Liberty Candidates.

I really wish Dr. Paul would read this thread because my views and the views of the other people saying we shouldn't ONLY focus on a single scenario is exactly what Ron Paul believes as well.

I have always applauded the effort. I have always applauded the enthusiasm and dedication. And there is no doubt that there are many victories to be had down this road regardless of the ultimate outcome (as I have stated over and over again but you fail to acknowledge).

I was willing to let this thread die and meet its natural end, which it did. Then you launch yet another irrational attack so of course I am going respond and defend myself and other like-minded supporters.

You seek to divide us which makes no sense because we are on the same team with the same goal of Liberty. I still can't understand your motive for this yet.

I'm waiting for some kind of logical reason for why you don't listen to Ron Paul and why you do not support any other Liberty candidate. Did one of these other guys offend you somehow? Do you hate Sanders, Sabrin, Lawson and the others?

You do know that it could have been any one of them to lead this Revolution instead of Ron Paul and it would have been one of THEM that you'd be supporting right now. These people are the future of this Revolution and deserve our support.

[HollyforRP]

Cynicism has become a supreme sign of intelligence. Compulsive skepticism masquerades as perceptiveness. Mean-spirited irony is chic. Beautiful truths are suspect and ugly truths are popular. Can someone turn this thing right side up please.. I personally am tired of everything being flipped on its head when i take a gander around.

Thanks
Randy

Spin-masters at work here. Try to be nice and they turn on you. They are the ones who are wrong and they know it but will continue spinning everything and making right seem wrong.

[Andrew76]

First of all, I'll admit that the chances of getting the nomination at the convention aren't too high. But, with what's been seen, it's certainly possible.

The "realists" often make claims that Paul will not get the nomination at all. I understand that they want to be realistic and all, but saying things like "will not", which mean a definite no, are not encouraging and very negative. They obviously don't understand the circumstances of the delegate and the process at all. Or if they do, they aren't seeing the progress we're making, at all.

You've seen several success stories on this board. And they always report there were other Paul supporters there... So obviously, just the people who come here aren't the only ones who are doing this. There may be many Paul delegates all over the nation that just aren't coming to this board to tell us how it's going. I've heard that there are many meetings in major cities for the delegates where they meet up and plan things. This can all lead to Paul delegates at the state convention, which would then pass a resolution to release McCain's delegates. Once that is done, the national delegates could be chosen, and if there is a majority of Paul delegates there, guess which delegates will be chosen to be national ones?

And it IS happening. Over the past few days, some people here have posted links to GOP leaders trying to tell local GOP leaders to be wary and careful of Paul supporters, and some are trying to make it seem we're misinforming people (I believe it was Minnesota where the GOP people were saying so, though they aren't aware of the resolutions that could be passed at the state convention). It's all very apparent they are scared of us, and that a revolution delegate-wise is happening. They wouldn't even mention it, otherwise.

Just remember, stay away from the MSM. They aren't going to report about the convention and what could happen. They're only going to announce the nominee they think will be chosen based on delegate numbers that they make up often.

And as I mentioned, don't let the realists bring you down. Their intentions may not be to really do so, but hearing negative things in times like this where we can have success is never good. Continue to do what you can to become delegates, and good things CAN happen.


To those who disagree, saying things like, "Hahha, YEAH! DOWN with REALISM!" First of all, you're an idiot because the original poster put the word "realists" in quotes. Because I don't think you understand what that means, let me spell it out for you plainly: The word "realists" is in quotes, because in fact, you are not being a realist so much as you are an annoying, ridiculous troll. A loss is highly likely, though not yet official. That is true. That is a fact. That is reality.
Given that info, you are left with two choices. One, you can quit. Two, you can keep on chipping away to the bitter end as any true supporter would do.

For the sake of the real R.P. supporters, if you've chosen the option of giving up, please, shut the f*ck up already. We get it, you've given up. We haven't.
In the name of all things rational, what in the ever loving christ are you trying to prove?? You don't want to support Ron Paul anymore. Fine. Stop. But seriously, grow up, give us all a break and troll somewhere else. This campaign is not over until it is over. Is the campaign officially over? No. So, will we stop yet? No. Really man, it is that simple.

[kaleidoscope eyes]

Cynicism has become a supreme sign of intelligence. Compulsive skepticism masquerades as perceptiveness. Mean-spirited irony is chic. Beautiful truths are suspect and ugly truths are popular. Can someone turn this thing right side up please.. I personally am tired of everything being flipped on its head when i take a gander around.

Thanks
Randy

+1,000,000 (unfortunately)

Ain't that the sad, sad truth. When will simplicity, true compassion, and stillness of mind come into vogue? Hopefully soon.

[acptulsa]

There is a fine line between optimism and fanaticism as if a person would just charge into a hailstorm of bullets being "optimistic" that the bullets will just miss while holding onto that slim hope of survival.

This kind of carless and nearsighted direction that has little foundation of reason is the same line of thinking that the Bush Administration evangelizes about the Iraq war. No matter how many lives are lost and no matter how impossible and irrational the current situation is, they ignore it all and stay "steadfast" in their plan.

I wish you the best and I really DO hope that everything you are fighting for comes true... for I, like all "realists", want what you want. Of course we would love the impossible (or at least improbable) to happen. Of course we would want some miracle scenario in which Ron Paul can somehow get the nomination. We just aren't willing to stake the ENTIRE future of our Movement on that dream...

I was willing to let this thread die and meet its natural end, which it did. Then you launch yet another irrational attack so of course I am going respond and defend myself and other like-minded supporters.

You seek to divide us which makes no sense because we are on the same team with the same goal of Liberty. I still can't understand your motive for this yet.


I'm not sure who's trying to divide whom. I look to see who the plants and trolls are. Some are obvious. Some could as easily be frustrated loyalists to the cause. It is a puzzlement.

I believe Conza88 is in New Zealand, isn't he? What good would it do the American movement for him to support someone local?

Are you "realists" really, really sure that tilting this windmill, as you look at it, won't help your precious other Liberty candidates? Many, many voters pay no attention to any race but the White House race. By getting attention for ourselves in connection with the most visible race, are you sure the "windmill tilters" won't help the congressional candidates?

I really, really don't see how either the delegate fight or the diversion of support from these other races could possibly cause this battle for liberty any more harm than the rancor and divisiveness I see displayed by the naysayers.

[flames2dust77]

To those who disagree, saying things like, "Hahha, YEAH! DOWN with REALISM!" First of all, you're an idiot because the original poster put the word "realists" in quotes. Because I don't think you understand what that means, let me spell it out for you plainly: The word "realists" is in quotes, because in fact, you are not being a realist so much as you are an annoying, ridiculous troll. A loss is highly likely, though not yet official. That is true. That is a fact. That is reality.
Given that info, you are left with two choices. One, you can quit. Two, you can keep on chipping away to the bitter end as any true supporter would do.

For the sake of the real R.P. supporters, if you've chosen the option of giving up, please, shut the f*ck up already. We get it, you've given up. We haven't.
In the name of all things rational, what in the ever loving christ are you trying to prove?? You don't want to support Ron Paul anymore. Fine. Stop. But seriously, grow up, give us all a break and troll somewhere else. This campaign is not over until it is over. Is the campaign officially over? No. So, will we stop yet? No. Really man, it is that simple.

Are you serious? So....all of this, the movement, the revolution, it's just about the campaign? Might I suggest you go back and watch Dr. Paul's latest video update. I don't think you heard a word Dr. Paul said. Some of the people who are getting thrown under the bus in this post have taken what Dr. Paul said seriously. Even RP has shifted gears in regards to his campaign. He is scaling back, and wants to continue educating people about THE MESSAGE.

How can you sit there and state some of the people on this post (who btw, have their feet firmly planted in reality and are far from TROLLS)...how can you state they no longer support Ron Paul? Please think about this: Dr. Paul has stood alone w/his ideals and beliefs many, many times in congress. That is one of the things that attracted many supporters. He has never compromised himself, beliefs, etc. He was re-elected 3/04...an outstanding victory! BUT, he hardly has any allies...wouldn't it be nice to get people like Sanders, Santoro, Lewis, Lawson, Sabrin, Terbo, etc into congress. Our guy will finally have allies. That's a MAJOR score in my book...and I know alot of people agree. So, with that said, the realists, the ones who are not putting all of their eggs into one basket; the ones that have decided to work on phase II .......they don't support Ron Paul? They are garnering support for republicans who are strict consitutionalists and will be on board with the good Dr.; let me get this straight...they don't support Ron Paul? Dude, that is laughable at best.

Think about what you're saying before you say it. Not once has the word "I give up" or anything similar to that come out of anyone's mouth...so stop putting cramming shite in our mouths that we didn't say. It's ridiculous; attack issues not character. I would also like to add that some of you need to figure out what the definition of "troll" is. Honestly, what some of you are doing could be considered trolling. Think about it...trying to get everyone fixed on this whole delegate issue that might or might not pan out....we do not know the outcome. All the while, it distracts people from learning about and promoting our other guys running for congress. Yeeaah...we'll truly be assed out then. AND there is a thread where it's a free for all bash fest against a group of people here....saying things you know will get a screwed up emotionl response; baiting? Hmmm, that's a bit trollish to me.

Also...see the ad at the top of the page? Hey! Eternal optimist people?! Put your money where your mouth is and donate to get it on the air!

Have a nice day!

[acptulsa]

I wish this thread had been labeled, "Don't let those on the other side of this debate bring you down." I say that because I am on both sides of this debate. Dr. Paul wouldn't still be in the race if he didn't feel that making a splash at the convention has the potential to do some good. That said, he wouldn't be running for re-election if he didn't think we could do some good in Congress. I am in full support of trying to some good in both places.

Don't we have enough of an uphill battle without working against each other? Both scenarios have potential to aid the common cause, in my humble opinion. I really, really don't understand the clash.

[phuqig_hotband]

Looks like both Ron Paul and Rand Paul are now "realists/pessimists/defeatists" about Ron Pauls chances at the Republican nomination. Ban them from the forums!

http://ronpaul2008.typepad.com/ron_paul_2008/2008/03/the-ron-paul-ca.html

[uncollapse]

Looks like both Ron Paul and Rand Paul are now "realists/pessimists/defeatists" about Ron Pauls chances at the Republican nomination. Ban them from the forums!

http://ronpaul2008.typepad.com/ron_paul_2008/2008/03/the-ron-paul-ca.html

the title is "The Ron Paul Campaign: The Glass is Half Full" and not "The Glass is empty".

Tell you what, even when the GOP platform evolved into completely liberal, Ron Paul will be the last man standing preaching the libertarian message. Don't attached your unwholesome label of "realists/pessimists/defeatists" with RP.

[uncollapse]

Cynicism has become a supreme sign of intelligence. Compulsive skepticism masquerades as perceptiveness. Mean-spirited irony is chic.

how true. :cool:

and they reveal their hunger of wanting to be percieved as intelligent, perceptive and chic by their constant haressing and eagerness of having the last word.

[phuqig_hotband]

how true. :cool:

and they reveal their hunger of wanting to be percieved as intelligent, perceptive and chic by their constant haressing and eagerness of having the last word.

Or maybe the "defeatists/realists/pessimists" only want to defend themselves against unjust and vulgar accusations. I have noticed a pattern to this whole "realist" verses "positivist" debate. The "realists" spend most of their time defending their own positions and the "positivists" spend most of their time flaming, labeling and driving away. Inclusive versus exclusive.

Also, you are confusing your perception (likely false) of their intentions with...well...their intentions. Absolute generalizations are rarely accurate. Did you not see the hypocrisy in your comment before you wrote it? You accuse others of believing they are intelligent, perceptive and chic and proceed to use the cool guy symbol in your comment.

[uncollapse]

Or maybe the "defeatists/realists/pessimists" only want to defend themselves against unjust and vulgar accusations. I have noticed a pattern to this whole "realist" verses "positivist" debate. The "realists" spend most of their time defending their own positions and the "positivists" spend most of their time flaming, labeling and driving away. Inclusive versus exclusive.

Also, you are confusing your perception (likely false) of their intentions with...well...their intentions. Absolute generalizations are rarely accurate.

cut the crap. don't act like you are the victim when you are obviously not.

Read the opening post again. Then read the first few replies to the OP. The smell of cynicism is so disgusting.

[uncollapse]

BTW, you register a new nick just to take part in this debate?

[phuqig_hotband]

cut the crap. don't act like you are the victim when you are obviously not.

Read the opening post again. Then read the first few replies to the OP. The smell of cynicism is so disgusting.

This entire thread is filled with people that want nothing more than to not be called troll. The title of the thread and the content of the OP was intentionally reactionary and argumentitive.

[uncollapse]

This entire thread is filled with people that want nothing more than to not be called troll. The title of the thread and the content of the OP was intentionally reactionary and argumentitive.

READ the opening post again. There was no mention of troll. It was a plead to supporters to keep their spirit up against negativity and that there is still a chance that RP might win the convention through delegate over-ruling the GOP.

then the 'realists' can't wait to rush in and inject their cynicism. Try justify that.

[phuqig_hotband]

READ the opening post again. There was no mention of troll. It was a plead to supporters to keep their spirit up against negativity and that there is still a chance that RP might win the convention through delegate over-ruling the GOP.

then the 'realists' can't wait to rush in and inject their cynicism. Try justify that.

"Don't let the "realists" bring you down."

"They obviously don't understand the circumstances of the delegate and the process at all."

"Sigh... I make a topic telling people to not be let down by them, and two just come here and continue to troll.
Go away."

Multiple comments were made that were implicational in nature. One should not start a thread like this if they don’t want others to defend their position.

This topic is in grassroots central. If it is not directed at every member, it should not be posted there.

I am not sure why people think comments that pretty much paraphrase what Ron and Rand Paul say directly to their supporters can be considered trolling or negative.

Quit being so sensitive. Politics isn’t pretty. How do you expect to handle others outside our movement if you can’t even handle people that mostly agree with you?

A sign of a healthy forum is open thoughtful debate. Ask the choir if anything productive ever came out of the mouth of the preacher.

[amy31416]

I'm not alone? There are actual people out there that have a rational thought in their head? OMG a tear just came to my eye.

There is a balance here. Realists CAN be overly cautious too.

RON PAUL is so much of a realist, in fact, that it may have affected his campaign. Based on many of the answers that Jonathan Bydlak has given, Ron Paul NOT running a campaign FULL TIME probably had the largest impact of all.


Nope, you aren't alone. I agree with everything you say, us realists can be too cautious and I think it did affect his campaign negatively. And we need to move on and get to the next step, while learning from our mistakes.

[uncollapse]

Cynicism is not realism. Hope is not folly.

[phuqig_hotband]

Absolute generalizations are rarely accurate.