colecrowe
03-13-2008, 11:34 PM
my theory is that most of Ron Paul's supporters are from outside the GOP. Which is why he should go iNDY. The GOP is 80% rabidly pro-war.
Remember how huge the registering of new voters/new Republicans was for us in this campaign?! Of the 6% of primary votes we got, I bet more than half of those weren't Republicans before Ron Paul.
Screw the GOP! Country over party.
I voted Libertarian when I was in Iraq in '04. Then when I got home I registered Democrat (because I thought I threw my vote away in Iraq). But I ONLY did it to protest the war. I still considered myself Libertarian (even though I am for controlled immigration (well--only out of necessity--and now I've been rethinking that, and I keep leaning more and more to the Libertarian stance on it) and pro-life initiatives sponsored by the Fed gov't SHORT of any criminalization of it).
* * *
I think the point is, no matter how much we want it, it is unreasonable to assume that Ron Paul delegates are going to get 100% of those 57% that are up for vote, and then that 100% of them will defy the rules. It is not going to happen.
And I know it is good to have hope and all, but it is also good to be realistic. Talk like this just gives the haters ammunition to call us crazy or delusional. Ron Paul will not get the nomination, and if he did, he would not win the general election. Enough Republicans would be upset over Ron Paul getting the nomination despite 5% of the votes in primaries that he would lose way too many Republican votes. and Democracts are not going to vote for him. The only thing that they agree with Ron Paul is the war. So what good would it do? He would lose in November, and there would be some residual ill-will from the perceived "stealing" of the nomination.
Shut the F up you traitor! He will get all of the unpledged delegates! Die scum! [/sarcasm]
2/3rds of this forum is in favor of an independent run and of putting great effort towards that! (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=126930)
The only traitors are those who say that Ron Paul can get the nomination and try to discourage/ban/threaten against talk about ways to actually help Ron Paul become President (indy run).
It is so obviously false, that their only motivation can be that they want to make sure he/we wastes time in the wrong way, in the only way to sure defeat, because they do not believe in the message, do not want what is best for the country, and do not want to give or risk any more in time, effort, money and emotional investment.
They are weak, cowardly, scared, hopeless traitors. They have given up and don't care anymore. The only thing they talk about is stupid sad desperate crap like how to spread lies about McCain being a traitor in Vietnam and setting hundreds of jets on fire and killing hundreds of men. (I'll tell you what: You want know the only way possible to lose against McCain?: those conspiracies and lies. Stick to the issues and voting history and it will be a landslide.)
They are the ultimate form of troll. THEY threaten and insult 2/3rds of this forum constantly. We do not do that. We just say how much we want Ron Paul to be President, how it could really happen, and how much we would give in order for it to happen. We cite reasonable facts and use logic.
They must be hired by the GOP and probably the Dems too. (I know that's not true: but the point is, it might as well be--because they are trying to make sure the movement doesn't grow and that Ron Paul doesn't run for President and win it. They are working to keep the movement stale and small and keep the status quo.)
Ron Paul has always been an independent! He always talks about how bad the partys are! He once officially resigned from the Republican Party via a nasty letter. He is currently a card carrying lifetime member of the Libertarian Party. He is truly neither of those things thought. He vehemently disagrees with many of their stances. This country needs an independent. Perot could have won--now imagine what Ron Paul--with us--could do.
George Washington on Political Parties:
They [political parties] serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.
"However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."* * * * *
Thank you for the good, reasoned post. Great info. But I disagree with you saying that we will lose "substantial support". We don't have substantial support. We have like 8% support--at the VERY most (average it out--and be realistic--you will agree it's 8% at the very most--and it's way too late for a brokered convention).
I disagree and don't think we get support mainly from christian/republican types--I think that is unique to your experience--and besides, that ground obviously isn't that fertile compared to other, broader ground--just look at our results, even in Michigan, your example. But, also, I absolutely have never thought we would get our support from pot smokers, truthers, etc.
Our support comes, and will come in a HUGE way if we go iNDY, from people who are anti-war, pro-constitution, and most importantly TIRED OF BEING LIED TO, TIRED OF LOBBYISTS, AND HUNGRY FOR THE TYPE OF STATESMAN ONLY RON PAUL IS.
People will vote for Ron Paul for his record that is so amazing, and so different, even if they disagree with some of his stances. Proof: The same exact thing made me, my wife, my father-in-law, father, grandpa-in-law, and on and on (including many family members I never proselytized to!) choose Paul: HIS HONESTY--the fact that he's not a "politician" like ALL the others. Once they hear that he has never gotten lobbyist money, never changed his stances, AND ONCE THEY HEAR HIM SPEAK, they are hooked.
But not the GOP sheep--the pro Iraq war types. That is why we have to get out of the GOP.
If we go iNDY, we will also get all the anti-war GOPers. Plus, we might get more GOPers than that if McCain is the nominee--because of immigration and character (he cheated on his wife and is married to his mistress now).
Plus, we haven't got to capitalize on running anti-war ads, especially with veterans in them supporting him. We need to make a much bigger deal about the amazing amount of money he raised from military members (more than all the Republicans put together) in ads, etc.
We also haven't capitalized on his being an Obstetrician for 30 years, and so much more. His name recognition is extremely dismal--we need a fresh start with exposure in every state--not just those left in the GOP race.
I've done A LOT of work for the campaign in Michigan and have met many different supporters. I can say with certainty that in Michigan, the majority of Ron Paul supporters are Republicans or disaffected Republicans. The majority are also Christians.
These boards are NOT representative of who is voting for us.
I'd estimate (from Michigan) we have about 65% of some type of Republicans making up our voters and about 75% Christians. The number of truthers that support Ron Paul is also very low I'd estimate about 10 to 15 percent. Again this is from my experience in Michigan.
If you looked at these forums, you'd think the majority were liberal atheists, and that may well be true about these forums, but now out in the real world.
I'd also like to add there are major discrepancies between the average Ron Paul voter and the "hardcore supporters"
Atheists, marijuana activists, peace activists, and truthers make up a disproportionate part of our "hardcore" supporters.
This is all very important and you need to think about the big picture. If we run independent, you can expect everyone on the forums and all the hardcore supporters to still supporter Ron Paul, but we're going to lose a substantial chunk of our base. If you think that people who already vote for Ron Paul won't vote for the Republican nominee, you haven't been talking enough to our casual voters, and believe me we have MANY of them.
Wherever Ron goes, I'll vote for him, but be aware many will not. How many of you have actually worked for a 3rd party candidate that is not a billionaire?
If you think things are bad now, you haven't seen anything yet.
Remember how huge the registering of new voters/new Republicans was for us in this campaign?! Of the 6% of primary votes we got, I bet more than half of those weren't Republicans before Ron Paul.
Screw the GOP! Country over party.
I voted Libertarian when I was in Iraq in '04. Then when I got home I registered Democrat (because I thought I threw my vote away in Iraq). But I ONLY did it to protest the war. I still considered myself Libertarian (even though I am for controlled immigration (well--only out of necessity--and now I've been rethinking that, and I keep leaning more and more to the Libertarian stance on it) and pro-life initiatives sponsored by the Fed gov't SHORT of any criminalization of it).
* * *
I think the point is, no matter how much we want it, it is unreasonable to assume that Ron Paul delegates are going to get 100% of those 57% that are up for vote, and then that 100% of them will defy the rules. It is not going to happen.
And I know it is good to have hope and all, but it is also good to be realistic. Talk like this just gives the haters ammunition to call us crazy or delusional. Ron Paul will not get the nomination, and if he did, he would not win the general election. Enough Republicans would be upset over Ron Paul getting the nomination despite 5% of the votes in primaries that he would lose way too many Republican votes. and Democracts are not going to vote for him. The only thing that they agree with Ron Paul is the war. So what good would it do? He would lose in November, and there would be some residual ill-will from the perceived "stealing" of the nomination.
Shut the F up you traitor! He will get all of the unpledged delegates! Die scum! [/sarcasm]
2/3rds of this forum is in favor of an independent run and of putting great effort towards that! (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=126930)
The only traitors are those who say that Ron Paul can get the nomination and try to discourage/ban/threaten against talk about ways to actually help Ron Paul become President (indy run).
It is so obviously false, that their only motivation can be that they want to make sure he/we wastes time in the wrong way, in the only way to sure defeat, because they do not believe in the message, do not want what is best for the country, and do not want to give or risk any more in time, effort, money and emotional investment.
They are weak, cowardly, scared, hopeless traitors. They have given up and don't care anymore. The only thing they talk about is stupid sad desperate crap like how to spread lies about McCain being a traitor in Vietnam and setting hundreds of jets on fire and killing hundreds of men. (I'll tell you what: You want know the only way possible to lose against McCain?: those conspiracies and lies. Stick to the issues and voting history and it will be a landslide.)
They are the ultimate form of troll. THEY threaten and insult 2/3rds of this forum constantly. We do not do that. We just say how much we want Ron Paul to be President, how it could really happen, and how much we would give in order for it to happen. We cite reasonable facts and use logic.
They must be hired by the GOP and probably the Dems too. (I know that's not true: but the point is, it might as well be--because they are trying to make sure the movement doesn't grow and that Ron Paul doesn't run for President and win it. They are working to keep the movement stale and small and keep the status quo.)
Ron Paul has always been an independent! He always talks about how bad the partys are! He once officially resigned from the Republican Party via a nasty letter. He is currently a card carrying lifetime member of the Libertarian Party. He is truly neither of those things thought. He vehemently disagrees with many of their stances. This country needs an independent. Perot could have won--now imagine what Ron Paul--with us--could do.
George Washington on Political Parties:
They [political parties] serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation, the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels, and modified by mutual interests.
"However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of government; destroying afterwards the very engines, which have lifted them to unjust dominion."
"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."* * * * *
Thank you for the good, reasoned post. Great info. But I disagree with you saying that we will lose "substantial support". We don't have substantial support. We have like 8% support--at the VERY most (average it out--and be realistic--you will agree it's 8% at the very most--and it's way too late for a brokered convention).
I disagree and don't think we get support mainly from christian/republican types--I think that is unique to your experience--and besides, that ground obviously isn't that fertile compared to other, broader ground--just look at our results, even in Michigan, your example. But, also, I absolutely have never thought we would get our support from pot smokers, truthers, etc.
Our support comes, and will come in a HUGE way if we go iNDY, from people who are anti-war, pro-constitution, and most importantly TIRED OF BEING LIED TO, TIRED OF LOBBYISTS, AND HUNGRY FOR THE TYPE OF STATESMAN ONLY RON PAUL IS.
People will vote for Ron Paul for his record that is so amazing, and so different, even if they disagree with some of his stances. Proof: The same exact thing made me, my wife, my father-in-law, father, grandpa-in-law, and on and on (including many family members I never proselytized to!) choose Paul: HIS HONESTY--the fact that he's not a "politician" like ALL the others. Once they hear that he has never gotten lobbyist money, never changed his stances, AND ONCE THEY HEAR HIM SPEAK, they are hooked.
But not the GOP sheep--the pro Iraq war types. That is why we have to get out of the GOP.
If we go iNDY, we will also get all the anti-war GOPers. Plus, we might get more GOPers than that if McCain is the nominee--because of immigration and character (he cheated on his wife and is married to his mistress now).
Plus, we haven't got to capitalize on running anti-war ads, especially with veterans in them supporting him. We need to make a much bigger deal about the amazing amount of money he raised from military members (more than all the Republicans put together) in ads, etc.
We also haven't capitalized on his being an Obstetrician for 30 years, and so much more. His name recognition is extremely dismal--we need a fresh start with exposure in every state--not just those left in the GOP race.
I've done A LOT of work for the campaign in Michigan and have met many different supporters. I can say with certainty that in Michigan, the majority of Ron Paul supporters are Republicans or disaffected Republicans. The majority are also Christians.
These boards are NOT representative of who is voting for us.
I'd estimate (from Michigan) we have about 65% of some type of Republicans making up our voters and about 75% Christians. The number of truthers that support Ron Paul is also very low I'd estimate about 10 to 15 percent. Again this is from my experience in Michigan.
If you looked at these forums, you'd think the majority were liberal atheists, and that may well be true about these forums, but now out in the real world.
I'd also like to add there are major discrepancies between the average Ron Paul voter and the "hardcore supporters"
Atheists, marijuana activists, peace activists, and truthers make up a disproportionate part of our "hardcore" supporters.
This is all very important and you need to think about the big picture. If we run independent, you can expect everyone on the forums and all the hardcore supporters to still supporter Ron Paul, but we're going to lose a substantial chunk of our base. If you think that people who already vote for Ron Paul won't vote for the Republican nominee, you haven't been talking enough to our casual voters, and believe me we have MANY of them.
Wherever Ron goes, I'll vote for him, but be aware many will not. How many of you have actually worked for a 3rd party candidate that is not a billionaire?
If you think things are bad now, you haven't seen anything yet.