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BuddyRey
03-11-2008, 10:16 PM
This is a favorite subject of historians (both novice and seasoned). Who do you think would best fit under the banners of "Best U.S. Presidents" and "Worst U.S. Presidents", keeping in mind that one's answers are not restricted to the immediate past (i.e. the last century)?

My picks:

Best U.S. President - After some evaluation, I've come to the tragic but inevitable conclusion that we haven't had a "great" or even "good" U.S. President since Calvin Coolidge. Silent Cal's not talked about very often, because he didn't do very much while in office. But this is exactly what made him so great. He believed in non-interventionism, hesitated to sign on to international agreements, and kept his hands off of the economy. The only blemishes on his otherwise exemplary time in office that I can find were the draconian Immigration Act of 1924, and the Radio Act of 1927, which increased government control of the airwaves through a newly created Federal Radio Commission. Tsk tsk tsk, naughty Cal!

Worst U.S. President - It's hard to overemphasize what a disastrously tyrannical despot Woodrow Wilson was. He was a Democrat, but arguably one of the first neoconservatives too. Everything from making "anti-government" speech illegal with the Sedition Act of 1918, to driving a steamroller over the Constitution with the illegal Federal Reserve Act. The only occasion on which he erred on the side of reason and personal responsibility was when he attempted to veto the Volstead Act. Too bad he failed, because Prohibition, and all the evils it unleashed on society in the forms of organized crime, police corruption, and lives destroyed, could have been completely averted.

nate895
03-11-2008, 10:18 PM
Best US President: Thomas Jefferson

Worst US President: Abe Lincoln (who happens to share a first name with our worst troll)

christagious
03-11-2008, 10:20 PM
Best US President: Thomas Jefferson

Worst US President: Abe Lincoln (who happens to share a first name with our worst troll)

Wow, was Lincoln really that bad? I'll admit I never really looked into anything about him but wasn't he "honest" and signed the emancipation proclamation?

Maybe those public school history classes still have a hold on my mind to an extent?

nate895
03-11-2008, 10:27 PM
Wow, was Lincoln really that bad? I'll admit I never really looked into anything about him but wasn't he "honest" and signed the emancipation proclamation?

Maybe those public school history classes still have a hold on my mind to an extent?

He also invaded a sovereign country, and proceeded to murder that country's citizens as well as Native Americans (who supported the South, for the most part).

ARealConservative
03-11-2008, 10:30 PM
The worst presidents would go:

FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
LBJ
Dubya

christagious
03-11-2008, 10:37 PM
He also invaded a sovereign country, and proceeded to murder that country's citizens as well as Native Americans (who supported the South, for the most part).

Ah yeah, I guess I forgot about that whole ordeal, if by sovereign nation you mean the confederate states of america. If not, then you'll have to enlighten me

nate895
03-11-2008, 10:39 PM
Ah yeah, I guess I forgot about that whole ordeal, if by sovereign nation you mean the confederate states of america. If not, then you'll have to enlighten me

Well, he invaded multiple ones of you count Indian land.

christagious
03-11-2008, 10:41 PM
Well, he invaded multiple ones of you count Indian land.

Maybe it's the liberal influence on my brain but didn't the founding fathers do the same thing? I'm not trying to be a troll or downtalk the fathers but I've always been under the impression that US history was built upon the graves of native ways and beaten slaves?

nate895
03-11-2008, 10:44 PM
Maybe it's the liberal influence on my brain but didn't the founding fathers do the same thing? I'm not trying to be a troll or downtalk the fathers but I've always been under the impression that US history was built upon the graves of native ways and beaten slaves?

The founders, for the most part, let the Indians be, it was people like Jackson who decided to be shit disturbers. The only two just wars we have fought against the Indians I can think of were the Creek Wars and Tecumseh's Rebellion, but other than that unconstitutional policies caused war with the natives, similar to our modern foreign policy.

christagious
03-11-2008, 10:45 PM
The founders, for the most part, let the Indians be, it was people like Jackson who decided to be shit disturbers. The only two just wars we have fought against the Indians I can think of were the Creek Wars and Tecumseh's Rebellion, but other than that unconstitutional policies caused war with the natives, similar to our modern foreign policy.

I guess that makes sense.

abe447
03-11-2008, 11:00 PM
Best- Abe Lincoln

Worst- Tie between Thomas Jefferson and Calvin Coolidge

nate895
03-11-2008, 11:03 PM
Best- Abe Lincoln

Worst- Tie between Thomas Jefferson and Calvin Coolidge

If this is serious, you are not a member of any political ideology that has cast a single vote for Ron Paul.

Kludge
03-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Best - Cool Cal, reversing some gov't regulation. It's unfortunate he's known by our history books as a miserly and frail old man who only entertained big business, and laying the foundation for the Great Depression.

Worst - Ronald Reagan. Yep. He hijacked the GOP, he started the "Family Values" pandering on a grand scale, which all GOP nominees have followed to date. He really pushed the ridiculous "War on Drugs" and failed to give rational rationale for his statist laws.

nate895
03-11-2008, 11:14 PM
Best - Cool Cal, reversing some gov't regulation. It's unfortunate he's known by our history books as a miserly and frail old man who only entertained big business, and laying the foundation for the Great Depression.

Worst - Ronald Reagan. Yep. He hijacked the GOP, he started the "Family Values" pandering on a grand scale, which all GOP nominees have followed to date. He really pushed the ridiculous "War on Drugs" and failed to give rational rationale for his statist laws.

Ronald Reagan hasn't done as much done as much damage as our first super-statist President who paved the way for the others. That man was Lincoln.

ForLibertyFight
03-11-2008, 11:59 PM
My favorite: Andrew Jackson for fighting against the banks

Worst: Bush

OptionsTrader
03-12-2008, 12:05 AM
Worst: W

Best: Andrew Jackson for killing the bank.

BuddyRey
03-12-2008, 01:00 AM
Worst - Ronald Reagan. Yep. He hijacked the GOP, he started the "Family Values" pandering on a grand scale, which all GOP nominees have followed to date. He really pushed the ridiculous "War on Drugs" and failed to give rational rationale for his statist laws.

QFT! I'll never understand the undying reverence most conservatives (even those of a very libertarian bent) have for Reagan. He massively inflated the size and scope of government, ramped up the already disastrous War on Drugs, and gave many of today's top neocons their first cabinet-level appointments. All of this alone would have been quite sufficient to amount to a failed Presidency, even without the debacle of Iran-Contra!

Best article on Reagan I think I've ever read, from the late Murray Rothbard:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard60.html

ghemminger
03-12-2008, 01:03 AM
Nice thread you guys are def. History Professor level thinkers - I'm learning every day from u guys

armand61685
03-12-2008, 04:36 AM
He also invaded a sovereign country, and proceeded to murder that country's citizens as well as Native Americans (who supported the South, for the most part).

I understand that. But, what about the blacks and their freedom? How would they go about gaining their individual rights?

Conza88
03-12-2008, 05:10 AM
Best: Jefferson & Andrew Jackson...

HELLOO --- they killed the FED.

Worst: Wilson, for Federal Reserve act.
Bush..

They've all played their part. Nixon - watergate. Reagan - Iran Contra etc....

ChristopherJ
03-12-2008, 08:07 AM
For anyone interested in this subject there is a free to download book on Mises.org

reassessing the presidency (http://www.mises.org/Books/reassessingpresidency.pdf)

Not the kind of information you get from your high school history teacher.

Truth Warrior
03-12-2008, 08:17 AM
For anyone interested in this subject there is a free to download book on Mises.org

reassessing the presidency (http://www.mises.org/Books/reassessingpresidency.pdf)

Not the kind of information you get from your high school history teacher.

:cool: Thanks!

acptulsa
03-12-2008, 08:23 AM
Interesting not to see Teddy Roosevelt on either list. I concur. On the one hand, the trust busting was a good thing. On the other, all it took to escape his trust busting was a healthy campaign contribution.

Corporatism was as strong then as today, despite his rhetoric and his actions. He was long on lip service, but doesn't deserve to be set in stone on Rushmore. Think we could eventually cut his jaw down to, say, President Paul's size?

weslinder
03-12-2008, 08:33 AM
Best President: Another vote for Jefferson.

Worst: Lyndon Johnson. He was Bush on Steroids. He planted us head-long into the most ill-advised war we've ever fought. His "War on Poverty" did more to expand federal feudalism than anything we've ever seen. He established the permanent welfare state. His policies led directly to the worst inflation we've ever seen.

jason43
03-12-2008, 09:10 AM
The worst presidents would go:

FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
LBJ
Dubya

x2

I'd say that Wilson was worse than FDR, because the ideas were Wilsons and without him, FDR would still have been a bourbon democrat. FDR just expanded and fufilled Wilsons misguided ideas.

Also, I'd say that Dubya can't be rated in order because the final long term results arent in yet. Someday, we might say that he was the beginning of the end. We might also look back and say our take the GOP back revolution was a direct response to his overhandedness. The future never knows.

My list in order of worst

Wilson
FDR
Lincoln
LBJ
*Bush

Best:

Washington (turning down president for life)
Jefferson (repealing alien and sedition act)
Madison (father of the constitution)
Andrew Jackson
Martin van Buren
Grover Cleveland
Hoover (tried to stem the tide of socialism)
Reagan (for 'the speech' if nothing else)

jason43
03-12-2008, 09:31 AM
I understand that. But, what about the blacks and their freedom? How would they go about gaining their individual rights?

RE Lee wanted to free the slaves and integrate the Confederate Army. (http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/LettersAndrewHunter.htm)

Also, the slaves would have been freed just like every other countries slaves were, that is either by the government buying their freedom, or by people electing representitives to ban it. In reading about politics in the south, it seems like a lot of the conflict arose from the perception by southerners that the north was forcing its will on them, and things might have went a lot smoother if southern whites and blacks had worked towards solutions together... remember, most southerners were not slave holders, and there was anti-slavery sentiment in the south as well. Black people ended up representing percieved northern agression and they ended up the scapegoats for the war that pretty much torched the south and distroyed most peoples lives, crushed their economy, etc.

amy31416
03-12-2008, 09:35 AM
For anyone interested in this subject there is a free to download book on Mises.org

reassessing the presidency (http://www.mises.org/Books/reassessingpresidency.pdf)

Not the kind of information you get from your high school history teacher.

I'm not even through the intro yet and it's really an amazing read. Thanks for the link.

klamath
03-12-2008, 10:21 AM
Without a doubt the worst is Wilson. If you look at the total effects of his presidency every other president has been dealing with the chain of events his mistakes brought into being.
Involvement in WWI the result of which are still being felt today;
The destruction of the German ecconomy which lead to the rise of Hitler.
The rise of hitler lead to the creation of the axis alliance of which included Japan.
Japan attacks the Americans and Germany declares war on us for declaring war on Japan.
The Soviet empire is built as a direct result of WWII.
The US as the result of being involved in WWII takes over the meddling in the Middle East and southeast Asia from the British and French in competition with the Soviets.
US policy is hugely effected toward Isreal because any criticism is said to be allowing another holocost.

And other things;
The creation of the league of nation- the forerunner of the UN.
The creation of the Fed- the forerunner of the great depression of which gave us the New Deal.
Now you show me a president that set into motion more problems for this country than Wilson.
Sure Lincoln invaded the south after they fired the opening shots but in reality he should have kicked them out of the union for being scumbags that never took the the meaning of freedom to heart.

We will not be able to judge how bad W's legacy will be for many years. It might end up being good as it was the beginning of the end of Wilson's interventionism.

The best I would have to say was Jefferson as the work he did with the consitution lead to many events here and abroad that had a positive effect on the nation and the world for many years to come.

Melissa
03-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Best ---Washington-I read many bio's on this man

Will have to think about worst but at least in my lifetime-Bush

hairball
03-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Best pres, ever--Teddy Roosevelt. A true leader, a thinking man of action. He is what we NEED right now.

Worst, FDR. He took a recovering economy and put it in the tank for 11 years. His economic policies kept the Depression going on for as long as it did, as well as outlawing the Gold satndard. Wilson was bad, but he was truly small osmpared to FDR. If we had not appeared so crippled and out-to-lunch, the Japanese would have donethings a bit differently.

Poor Jefferson. He was adequate, but the Louisiana Purchase was a statist copout,a nd he knew it. Not a moment he was proud of.

Bush the worst? He has a lot of real competition to take that banner.

jason43
03-12-2008, 10:34 AM
Best pres, ever--Teddy Roosevelt. A true leader, a thinking man of action. He is what we NEED right now.

Worst, FDR. He took a recovering economy and put it in the tank for 11 years. His economic policies kept the Depression going on for as long as it did, as well as outlawing the Gold satndard. Wilson was bad, but he was truly small osmpared to FDR. If we had not appeared so crippled and out-to-lunch, the Japanese would have donethings a bit differently.

Poor Jefferson. He was adequate, but the Louisiana Purchase was a statist copout,a nd he knew it. Not a moment he was proud of.

Bush the worst? He has a lot of real competition to take that banner.

Teddy Roosevelt was an imperialist.

Wilson CREATED FDR. Without Wilsons policy, FDR and the new deal would never have been possible.

Wilson is probably the most influential president in the history of the country, and not in a good way. He was the beginning of the end.

klamath
03-12-2008, 10:51 AM
Teddy Roosevelt was an imperialist.

Wilson CREATED FDR. Without Wilsons policy, FDR and the new deal would never have been possible.

Wilson is probably the most influential president in the history of the country, and not in a good way. He was the beginning of the end.

I can't agree more.

acptulsa
03-12-2008, 11:12 AM
I can't agree more.

Me too neither. Anyone who is anti-Iraqi quagmire and professes to love TR needs to read Twain's writings in protest of Teddy's attack of the Philippine Islands.

HOLLYWOOD
03-12-2008, 11:14 AM
WORST PRESIDENTS:

Woodrow Wilson
LBJ
FDR
Lincoln
Bush <== tied for WORST w/Wilson... still counting George's failures & legacy's of inflictions

BEST PRESIDENTS:

Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Grover Cleveland
James Monroe
George Washington


Historical RANKINGS of US Presidents... popular polling since 1948 <=== link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents)

amy31416
03-12-2008, 11:40 AM
Me too neither. Anyone who is anti-Iraqi quagmire and professes to love TR needs to read Twain's writings in protest of Teddy's attack of the Philippine Islands.

I love Twain and have over ten books with his writings, but I've never seen this. Do you know or can you link me to somewhere I can read it?

yongrel
03-12-2008, 11:46 AM
I agree with the OP that Calvin Coolidge was the last really good president. In my mind, the best presidents we've had were (in no particular order) Andrew Jackson, Calvin Coolidge, James Madison, and Tommy Jefferson. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.

For the worst, I can think of Lincoln, Polk, Harding, LBJ, Woodrow Wilson, and of course, W.

Kade
03-12-2008, 12:07 PM
WORST PRESIDENTS:

Woodrow Wilson
LBJ
FDR
Lincoln
Bush <== tied for WORST w/Wilson... still counting George's failures & legacy's of inflictions

BEST PRESIDENTS:

Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Grover Cleveland
James Monroe
George Washington


Historical RANKINGS of US Presidents... popular polling since 1948 <=== link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents)


I would like to take this time to point out that 4 out of the 5 Presidents you chose were Non-Christians.

Grover Cleveland was Presbyterian.

Just a thought.

acptulsa
03-12-2008, 12:09 PM
I love Twain and have over ten books with his writings, but I've never seen this. Do you know or can you link me to somewhere I can read it?

Picked it up at a Salvation Army. I'll look on the spine and find the publisher when I get home, and pm tomorrow.

familydog
03-12-2008, 12:19 PM
Depends on what standards you use to define a"Great" president.

My picks:

Best:
1. Grover Cleveland
2. Thomas Jefferson
3. Calvin Coolidge

Worst:
1. Abe Lincoln
2. Woodrow Wilson
3. FDR

Washington and Madison deserve special mention, but they don't make the top three.

Kade
03-12-2008, 12:19 PM
I love Twain and have over ten books with his writings, but I've never seen this. Do you know or can you link me to somewhere I can read it?

I don't suppose you support Twain's religious or political ideology?

ghemminger
03-12-2008, 12:20 PM
Semi - related - Does anyone know what the mob reaction was to the govt during the great depression? Did it elevate FDR or take him out?

familydog
03-12-2008, 12:21 PM
I don't suppose you support Twain's religious or political ideology?

Why do you make everything about religion? This thread has nothing to do with it.

acptulsa
03-12-2008, 12:24 PM
Semi - related - Does anyone know what the mob reaction was to the govt during the great depression? Did it elevate FDR or take him out?

Death took him out.

Kade
03-12-2008, 12:27 PM
I know why many of you consider Lincoln one of the worse Presidents, but consider that the CSA was in no way going to negotiate a return to the Union... none.

Lincoln, acting as the head of a separate SOVEREIGN nation of its own, invaded another so called Sovereign Nation. Let this be your reason for placing him so low on the totem pole, that he won this invasion and kept intact this country should be no consideration to you, apparently, in his status as one of the greatest Presidents we have ever had....

If you consider the timeline of events... remember that the rebellion was not one sided... Up in the North MASS protests were held in every state, DEMANDING that Lincoln invade the south and end the rebellion...

I want you to imagine this same circumstance today... mass protests demanding something of the Government, I dunno, maybe the Iraq War... and the President obeying the people of HIS own sovereign nation.

When the South seceded, it had no more rights to govern or protest in the Union.

From this logic, the North, under the banner of the people, invaded the sovereign Confederate States, and won.

Surely you can come up with a better reason for placing Lincoln so low, I would like some of you to give me those reasons...

Speaking of reason, why are there so few here with it?

Kade
03-12-2008, 12:29 PM
Why do you make everything about religion? This thread has nothing to do with it.

Religion and politics is what EVERY thread is about...

"Twain was a socialist" was going to be my climatic finish, you ruined it. =P

ghemminger
03-12-2008, 12:29 PM
Death took him out.


thanks - I'm just wondering how the general public will react when this economic depression hits them hard - wondering how they reacted in the past?

acptulsa
03-12-2008, 12:33 PM
thanks - I'm just wondering how the general public will react when this economic depression hits them hard - wondering how they reacted in the past?

They sure didn't re-elect Hoover. Funny, you look old enough to remember Dubya's daddy. Does, "It's the economy, stupid" ring any bells?

Kade
03-12-2008, 12:34 PM
thanks - I'm just wondering how the general public will react when this economic depression hits them hard - wondering how they reacted in the past?

FDR was well loved by the people... which is why he was elected four times by landslides.

Kade
03-12-2008, 12:37 PM
I would like to point out that one of my own personal heroes once wrote about Roosevelt:


H. L. Mencken predicted in his diary that Roosevelt would be remembered as a great president, "maybe even alongside Washington and Lincoln," opining that Roosevelt "had every quality that morons esteem in their heroes."

familydog
03-12-2008, 12:40 PM
Religion and politics is what EVERY thread is about...

"Twain was a socialist" was going to be my climatic finish, you ruined it. =P

Um, not really. Religion wasn't mentioned in this thread until you put it here.

And so what if Twain is a socialist? That means I, who is not one, can't read and enjoy his works? I read and enjoy the works of historian Niall Ferguson, but yet I'm not an imperialist like he is. What's your point?

ChristopherJ
03-12-2008, 01:32 PM
I know why many of you consider Lincoln one of the worse Presidents, but consider that the CSA was in no way going to negotiate a return to the Union... none.

Lincoln, acting as the head of a separate SOVEREIGN nation of its own, invaded another so called Sovereign Nation. Let this be your reason for placing him so low on the totem pole, that he won this invasion and kept intact this country should be no consideration to you, apparently, in his status as one of the greatest Presidents we have ever had....

If you consider the timeline of events... remember that the rebellion was not one sided... Up in the North MASS protests were held in every state, DEMANDING that Lincoln invade the south and end the rebellion...

I want you to imagine this same circumstance today... mass protests demanding something of the Government, I dunno, maybe the Iraq War... and the President obeying the people of HIS own sovereign nation.

When the South seceded, it had no more rights to govern or protest in the Union.

From this logic, the North, under the banner of the people, invaded the sovereign Confederate States, and won.

Surely you can come up with a better reason for placing Lincoln so low, I would like some of you to give me those reasons...

Speaking of reason, why are there so few here with it?

Ummm Lincoln was a big government statist. He favored a central bank and corporate welfare.

He was also one of the worst offenders of constitutional rights in the history of this country. He threw several thousand people in jail without the benefit of trials for simply voicing opposition to the war. He also shut down many newspapers and imprisoned editors for voicing opposition. These were northerners not southerners.

Is it really such a suprise people on this forum don't like him? :rolleyes:

Kade
03-12-2008, 02:02 PM
Ummm Lincoln was a big government statist. He favored a central bank and corporate welfare.

He was also one of the worst offenders of constitutional rights in the history of this country. He threw several thousand people in jail without the benefit of trials for simply voicing opposition to the war. He also shut down many newspapers and imprisoned editors for voicing opposition. These were northerners not southerners.

Is it really such a suprise people on this forum don't like him? :rolleyes:

Sources?

Kade
03-12-2008, 02:03 PM
Um, not really. Religion wasn't mentioned in this thread until you put it here.

And so what if Twain is a socialist? That means I, who is not one, can't read and enjoy his works? I read and enjoy the works of historian Niall Ferguson, but yet I'm not an imperialist like he is. What's your point?

I don't remember asking you specifically... but valid point nonetheless.

hairball
03-12-2008, 02:04 PM
I love Twain and have over ten books with his writings, but I've never seen this. Do you know or can you link me to somewhere I can read it?

I think the book was Pen Dipped in Hell(?) It talked a lot about the Phillipine Insurrection. And who the hell cares if one of the best American writers had some different leanings? He was one of the Great writers of the American continent. He wasn't always right, but he was passionate and unafraid.

And yes, in spite of some troubles, there has been no other president that showed such superb leadership skills as TR. He was a far more complex man than most realize. But then most folks like to only take in the veneer of a man before they make their 'conclusion'.

Fox McCloud
03-12-2008, 02:19 PM
worst Presidents?

-George W. Bush; Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, Presidential Directive 51, possibly had knowledge of 9/11, but allowed it to happen, has signed other questionable pieces of legislation, and has actively promoted world government.
-Bill Clinton; greatly damaged our military by cutting back; had an interventionist policy that was a prequel to the war in Iraq--greatly responsible in catalyzing Osama Bin Laden, signed NAFTA, is a proverbial liar (plus, I have a personal vendetta against him).
-FDR: this is a given, for any conservative.....was part of the "New Deal", and GREATLY furthered socialism in the US, knew Pearl Harbor was going to happen, then pulled back and let it get slaughtered to end the US's "isolationism", was an interventionist, not to mention an ignorant fool (he stated that he saw the New World Order, and that it wasn't new...and it wasn't order.....little did he know he was directly part of it).
-Woodrow Wilson: started the US's interventionist ideals and signed the Federal Reserve Act....the only thing good I can say about him is that he woke up to his foolish actions...sadlly, it was too late for him to do anything (I guess the bankers took on the idea of "use 'em and abuse 'em").
-Abraham Lincoln: Destroyed Constitutionalism by wanting to force the South to rejoin the Union, didn't give a crap about States rights, also, was the one that started us into a fiat based currency, also, it was during his era that Federal taxes were forever ingrained in the American people's minds. Also, there's an amount of evidence to suggest many of the people he had connections with were Communist...and he, himself, may have been one...the only good thing I can say about him, is that later in life, he became saved (shortly before his death), and eventually saw the folly of what he had done.

sophocles07
03-12-2008, 02:26 PM
Best Presidents: Jefferson, Adamses, Jackson (with Benton in the congress; mostly a good anti-bank president), Washington, Van Buren

Worst Presidents: GW Bush, Lyndon Johnson, Nixon, Grant, Lincoln, McKinley, Wilson, Harding, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan, Clinton, GHW Bush, F. Roosevelt.

There are a lot more bad presidents than good—I would order the best 1) Jefferson, 2) Washington, 3) J. Adams, 4) JQ Adams, 5) Jackson, 6) Van Buren.

ChristopherJ
03-12-2008, 02:29 PM
Sources?

You can find many articles using google.

Here's one I found on Lew Rockwell "Was Lincoln a Tyrant?" (http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/wDas.htm)


Add to this Lincoln’s extraordinary disregard for the Constitution during his entire administration, and it seems absurd for Quackenbush or anyone else to portray him as a champion of the Constitution who was pestered by “political zealots.” Among Lincoln’s unconstitutional acts were launching an invasion without the consent of Congress, blockading Southern ports before formally declaring war, unilaterally suspending the writ of habeas corpus and arresting and imprisoning thousands of Northern citizens without a warrant, censoring telegraph communications, confiscating private property, including firearms, and effectively gutting the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

The book I linked earlier in this thread also has a whole chapter on Lincoln that doesn't paint a very flattering picture of the man.

Mesogen
03-12-2008, 02:45 PM
Best Presidents: Jefferson, Adamses, Jackson (with Benton in the congress; mostly a good anti-bank president), Washington, Van Buren

Worst Presidents: GW Bush, Lyndon Johnson, Nixon, Grant, Lincoln, McKinley, Wilson, Harding, Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan, Clinton, GHW Bush, F. Roosevelt.

There are a lot more bad presidents than good—I would order the best 1) Jefferson, 2) Washington, 3) J. Adams, 4) JQ Adams, 5) Jackson, 6) Van Buren.

John Adams? Alien and Sedition Acts? Huh?

Best = John Hanson (because he didn't do much and didn't stay in office long and didn't have any executive authority)

and anyone who got shot. If they got shot, then they were great. Yup Lincoln too.

Worst = Wilson followed closely by Dubya.


( I take back the being shot thing with Wm McKinley. I don't like what I hear about his tarriff and about his restriction of silver as money. )

klamath
03-12-2008, 03:08 PM
All the Lincoln bashing. You know what, who the hell gives a damn about about all their great constitutional RIGHTS. Ask the black people in the south how they liked their rights? I prefer individual rights to states rights any day. How many of the admendments of the constitution are violated by slavery? Huh. Every single thing about slavery violated the whole concept of the declaration of indepenence and the bill of rights. Why didn't you ask the five million slaves whether they were enjoying "we hold these truths to be self evident, that ALL men are created equal."
A lot of you are all for YOUR constitutional rights as long as you are white. This is why the grass roots destroyed the RP campaign. Constitutional racist hypocrites.
For the record I am no big admirer of Lincoln and think the civil war did great harm to our country and could have been solved peacefully and I greatly admire Robert E Lee because he freed his slaves before Grant and was a great leader.

brianewart
03-12-2008, 03:12 PM
I'll give it a go:

Best Presidents:
Jefferson
Madison
Cleveland

Worst Presidents:
Wilson
FDR
Lincoln (because his trampling of the constitution set up the other two for theirs)

familydog
03-12-2008, 03:14 PM
All the Lincoln bashing. You know what, who the hell gives a damn about about all their great constitutional RIGHTS. Ask the black people in the south how they liked their rights? I prefer individual rights to states rights any day. How many of the admendments of the constitution are violated by slavery? Huh. Every single thing about slavery violated the whole concept of the declaration of indepenence and the bill of rights. Why didn't you ask the five million slaves whether they were enjoying "we hold these truths to be self evident, that ALL men are created equal."
A lot of you are all for YOUR contitutional rights as long as you are white. This is why the grass roots destroyed the RP campaign. Constitutional racist hypocrites.
For the record I am no big admirer of Lincoln and think the civil war did great harm to our country and could have been solved peacefully and I greatly admire Robert E Lee because he freed his slaves before Grant and was a great leader.

Yawn. Get over yourself. No one in this thread has expressed racist sentiments. No one in this thread has said institutionalized slavery, or any kind of slavery should exist. I'm sure, as Dr. Paul supporters, would all agree we have the same rights no matter skin, ethnicity, religion, etc.

I'm not sure who or what your raging against.

klamath
03-12-2008, 03:21 PM
Yawn. Get over yourself. No one in this thread has expressed racist sentiments. No one in this thread has said institutionalized slavery, or any kind of slavery should exist. I'm sure, as Dr. Paul supporters, would all agree we have the same rights no matter skin, ethnicity, religion, etc.

I'm not sure who or what your raging against.

I get tired of hearing how lincoln violated the constitution and not once do I hear about how slavery violated the constitution. Which was worse? If there are any black people left on here ask them how they feel about lincoln's constitutional violations

familydog
03-12-2008, 03:23 PM
I get tired of hearing how lincoln violated the constitution and not once do I hear about how slavery violated the constitution. Which was worse? If there are any black people left on here ask them how they feel about lincoln's constitutional violations

Slavery violated the Constitution.

So did Lincoln suspending Habeus Corpus.

Don't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad bahavior.

sophocles07
03-12-2008, 03:28 PM
John Adams? Alien and Sedition Acts? Huh?

I agree completely here. I have to say my admiration of Adams is more of an idealistic thing—his writings in particular are of great interest. I take Jefferson’s side on all of the Adams-Jefferson controversies. Van Buren, too, was a somewhat unimportant president, though not his fault really. His Autobiography should be required reading.

weslinder
03-12-2008, 03:39 PM
I've always said that Jackson is the most overrated President (maybe not by historians, that'd be Lincoln) and this thread is confirming it. Jackson did elimate the National Bank and deserves credit for it. But he was horrible on property rights and very corrupt. He used trumped up charges to take farms and Indian land for his buddies. He helped protect Jean Lafitte from prosecution by Louisiana.

Andrew Jackson - Great General, generally bad President with one great accomplishment.

klamath
03-12-2008, 03:40 PM
Slavery violated the Constitution.

So did Lincoln suspending Habeus Corpus.

Don't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad bahavior.

It is all a matter of scale, Does suspending Habeus Corpus violate more tenants of the constitution than slavery? Did Blacks have the right of habeus Corpus. Did the blacks have the right to own and bear arms? Did blacks have the right to a fair and speedy trial with a jury of their peers? Did Blacks have the right to vote? Did Blacks have the right to freely speak their mind? Etc. Etc.
And yes there are racists on here. I remember the day the MLK money bomb was suggested and suddenly there are scores of links to StormFront proving MLK was a communist. A little too quick to be a random find on google. Me thinks it was in their favorites menu.

dirknb@hotmail.com
03-12-2008, 03:41 PM
Best: Jefferson & Andrew Jackson...

HELLOO --- they killed the FED.

Worst: Wilson, for Federal Reserve act.
Bush..

They've all played their part. Nixon - watergate. Reagan - Iran Contra etc....

+1

familydog
03-12-2008, 04:51 PM
It is all a matter of scale, Does suspending Habeus Corpus violate more tenants of the constitution than slavery? Did Blacks have the right of habeus Corpus. Did the blacks have the right to own and bear arms? Did blacks have the right to a fair and speedy trial with a jury of their peers? Did Blacks have the right to vote? Did Blacks have the right to freely speak their mind? Etc. Etc.
And yes there are racists on here. I remember the day the MLK money bomb was suggested and suddenly there are scores of links to StormFront proving MLK was a communist. A little too quick to be a random find on google. Me thinks it was in their favorites menu.

I never suggested there were no racists on the forum, I was strictly speaking to this thread, which was the context of your post.

We can't be in the business of "well, this action is violating the constitution...but it's ok because it's not as bad as THAT action that violates the consitution." If that is our rationale, we are doomed as a country. That is not what a constitutional republic is all about, that is not what Ron Paul is all about, that is not what this movement is all about, and that is not what the rule of law is all about. I can't blame institutionalized slavery on Lincoln, otherwise I'd bash him about that too. If certain people within this movement think otherwise, that's on them and it doesn't reflect the majority.

Seems like you in the business to pick a fight by accusing people in this thread of being racist, when they have demonstrated no such thing. Get off your high horse please before you fall. You will save much on your hospital bill.

nf7mate
03-12-2008, 09:14 PM
Best: Jefferson, Washington
Worst: Lincoln, Wilson

nate895
03-12-2008, 09:23 PM
I understand that. But, what about the blacks and their freedom? How would they go about gaining their individual rights?

The South would have freed their slaves soon enough, and they would have had their citizenship as per Southern jurisprudence at the time. Did you know free blacks in the South could vote and many owned slaves?

mtmedlin
03-12-2008, 09:28 PM
All presidents have faults, even our beloved Jefferson violated his oath (see Louisiana Purchase) It would be hard for me to select the best but worst I owuld give to George W Bush.
I put him way above FDR and others. FDR I have pitty on because his motivations were pure. The man watched as his country starved to death and acted to stop it. His biggest mistake was to not sunset his social policies so that they would not have a long term negative effect. Bush on the other hand....what defense can I give him?

nate895
03-12-2008, 09:35 PM
All presidents have faults, even our beloved Jefferson violated his oath (see Louisiana Purchase) It would be hard for me to select the best but worst I owuld give to George W Bush.
I put him way above FDR and others. FDR I have pitty on because his motivations were pure. The man watched as his country starved to death and acted to stop it. His biggest mistake was to not sunset his social policies so that they would not have a long term negative effect. Bush on the other hand....what defense can I give him?

I still don't get what was wrong with the Louisiana purchase. It was a treaty, and the Executive signed the treaty, and the Senate ratified it as per the Constitution. Done and done. If a state didn't like it, they could have seceded, as Massachusetts threatened to do. It in way is a violation of the Constitution, as land treaties are normal treaties, I assume the Convention would have noted that the treaty clause didn't include transfer of land, but they didn't. That is like saying that because the Constitution doesn't say we can have an Air Force, we can't have one.

mtmedlin
03-12-2008, 09:50 PM
I still don't get what was wrong with the Louisiana purchase. It was a treaty, and the Executive signed the treaty, and the Senate ratified it as per the Constitution. Done and done. If a state didn't like it, they could have seceded, as Massachusetts threatened to do. It in way is a violation of the Constitution, as land treaties are normal treaties, I assume the Convention would have noted that the treaty clause didn't include transfer of land, but they didn't. That is like saying that because the Constitution doesn't say we can have an Air Force, we can't have one.

More so, Jefferson expanded the power of the president. He had no right to purchase land. Nowhere in the constitution does it give that power and should have been reserved to the state. He could have passed a constitutional amendment, which would have been the proper course, but he chose to sidestep this issue and use a treaty even though it was and still is considered to have been a loophole and not a strict interpretation of the Constitution. I am not saying that he is a horrible president but it is the most minor steps that lead to tyranny. We didnt get into this situation in one giant step. It was ignoring strict constitutional interpretation that allowed others to do the same.

nate895
03-12-2008, 09:58 PM
More so, Jefferson expanded the power of the president. He had no right to purchase land. Nowhere in the constitution does it give that power and should have been reserved to the state. He could have passed a constitutional amendment, which would have been the proper course, but he chose to sidestep this issue and use a treaty even though it was and still is considered to have been a loophole and not a strict interpretation of the Constitution. I am not saying that he is a horrible president but it is the most minor steps that lead to tyranny. We didnt get into this situation in one giant step. It was ignoring strict constitutional interpretation that allowed others to do the same.

The Senate could have said "no." They didn't. Treaties are ultimately acts of the Senate, not of the President.

coyote_sprit
03-12-2008, 10:01 PM
More so, Jefferson expanded the power of the president. He had no right to purchase land. Nowhere in the constitution does it give that power and should have been reserved to the state. He could have passed a constitutional amendment, which would have been the proper course, but he chose to sidestep this issue and use a treaty even though it was and still is considered to have been a loophole and not a strict interpretation of the Constitution. I am not saying that he is a horrible president but it is the most minor steps that lead to tyranny. We didnt get into this situation in one giant step. It was ignoring strict constitutional interpretation that allowed others to do the same.

So would you prefer not to have the Louisiana territory?

nate895
03-12-2008, 11:28 PM
So would you prefer not to have the Louisiana territory?

You and I personally affected by that, I think.

sophocles07
03-13-2008, 02:09 AM
The South would have freed their slaves soon enough, and they would have had their citizenship as per Southern jurisprudence at the time.

You seem really sure of this. Why?

Mesogen
03-13-2008, 05:53 AM
Ummm Lincoln was a big government statist. He favored a central bank and corporate welfare.

Lincoln fought the central bankers tooth and nail.

jason43
03-13-2008, 06:16 AM
Semi - related - Does anyone know what the mob reaction was to the govt during the great depression? Did it elevate FDR or take him out?

It uh, got him elected 4 times. It took Hoover out.

acptulsa
03-13-2008, 06:20 AM
So would you prefer not to have the Louisiana territory?

Jefferson had no time for an amendment and a populace that was all too ready to go to war with our Revolutionary ally over that land. Politics, in the end, must deal with realities. Napoleon made it abundantly clear that was a very limited time offer. What else could be done?

Likewise, some of John Adam's actions when the populace was trying to pressure him into war with France, and some of Lincoln's actions during the Civil War and some of FDR's during the Great Depression can be excused as politically necessary due to crisis. A crisis is a crisis, and a politician who doesn't step up and deal with it is no friend of the people.

In the case of the two Bushes, there are many reasons to believe they manufactured wars. They could even have done it for the purpose of creating a crisis that would enable them to infringe on our rights. Unfortunately, we can't prove this, but there's reason enough to suspect it. That, to the best of my knowledge, is a first and a new low.

acptulsa
03-13-2008, 06:21 AM
It uh, got him elected 4 times. It took Hoover out.

Amazing, isn't it jason? :rolleyes:

mtmedlin
03-13-2008, 06:30 AM
Jefferson had no time for an amendment and a populace that was all too ready to go to war with our Revolutionary ally over that land. Politics, in the end, must deal with realities. Napoleon made it abundantly clear that was a very limited time offer. What else could be done?

Likewise, some of John Adam's actions when the populace was trying to pressure him into war with France, and some of Lincoln's actions during the Civil War and some of FDR's during the Great Depression can be excused as politically necessary due to crisis. A crisis is a crisis, and a politician who doesn't step up and deal with it is no friend of the people.

In the case of the two Bushes, there are many reasons to believe they manufactured wars. They could even have done it for the purpose of creating a crisis that would enable them to infringe on our rights. Unfortunately, we can't prove this, but there's reason enough to suspect it. That, to the best of my knowledge, is a first and a new low.

I get what you are saying but the term "the ends justify the means" can also be used by President Bush. If all presidents at times of crisis would have upheld the Constitution within its strict interpretation instead of finding ways to get around its intent, then I believe we wouldnt be in this predicament.
To say,
Originally Posted by coyote_sprit
So would you prefer not to have the Louisiana territory?
is rediculous because it is the same argument that the neocons are using. "So would you prefer not to have safety from terrorists" Its an argument used to justify an action that wasnt proper. I love Thomas Jefferson but sometimes a president needs to lead by example instead of bending to the pressures of his constituancy. Doing something right instead of quick is never wrong.

jason43
03-13-2008, 06:45 AM
The Lousiana Purchace was fine because it passed through congress, and it was made without force of arms. In fact, the US only wanted to purchase the port of new orleans but the french offered the whole territory for not too much more than they were prepaired to pay for the port. Overall, it made sense. Otherwise we might have had more war because France wanted to establish a north american part of their emipre...

jason43
03-13-2008, 06:46 AM
Amazing, isn't it jason? :rolleyes:

Um, yeah, pretty remarkable...

Kade
03-13-2008, 11:55 AM
Yawn. Get over yourself. No one in this thread has expressed racist sentiments. No one in this thread has said institutionalized slavery, or any kind of slavery should exist. I'm sure, as Dr. Paul supporters, would all agree we have the same rights no matter skin, ethnicity, religion, etc.

I'm not sure who or what your raging against.

Before Lincoln, how were those "rights" protected?

Kade
03-13-2008, 11:57 AM
I get tired of hearing how lincoln violated the constitution and not once do I hear about how slavery violated the constitution. Which was worse? If there are any black people left on here ask them how they feel about lincoln's constitutional violations

The other point is that Lincoln didn't really do anything the PEOPLE of his country wanted him to do... The south seceded. The UNION was a SEPARATE country whose constituents demanded a war. The Lincoln bashers on here are setting themselves for a proverbial corner beating if they keep it up.

menoname
03-13-2008, 12:02 PM
Best - Nixon, Bush, Wilson, FDR
Worst - Jefferson, Jackson, Kennedy

Mr. Coolidge
03-13-2008, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the kind words. :)

Coolidge was pretty popular back in his day: He won reelection in 1924 by a landslide (75% of the Electoral College). After what Wilson had done, people had had enough I guess...

He was in office for the second half of Harding's unfinished term, and for his own 4 years, then he could have run again 1928. But he turned it down:

Coolidge did not seek renomination; he announced his decision to reporters, in writing, with typical terseness: "I do not choose to run for President in 1928." After allowing them to take that in, Coolidge elaborated. "If I take another term, I will be in the White House till 1933 … Ten years in Washington is longer than any other man has had it—too long!" In his memoirs, Coolidge explained his decision not to run: "The Presidential office takes a heavy toll of those who occupy it and those who are dear to them. While we should not refuse to spend and be spent in the service of our country, it is hazardous to attempt what we feel is beyond our strength to accomplish."

When Congress proposed a Farm Relief Bill that would "allow the federal government to purchase agricultural surpluses and sell them abroad at lowered prices", he vetoed it. He grew up from a farm family, so he knew:

He favored Herbert Hoover's proposal to modernize agriculture to create profits, instead of manipulating prices. When Congress re-passed the McNary-Haugen bill in 1927, Coolidge vetoed it again. "Farmers never have made much money," said Coolidge, the Vermont farmer's son, "I do not believe we can do much about it."

Sorry for rambling, just thought I'd share. :o

But I do think it is a shame we don't look for more Coolidge-type qualities in public officials these days. He didn't have a booming voice or a pounding fist, but he had wisdom, reflection, and modesty, while still having his convictions. Of course, that's the eternal flaw of modesty, it will never be appreciated or remembered since it does not seek attention. Oh well....

jason43
03-13-2008, 12:14 PM
Best - Nixon, Bush, Wilson, FDR
Worst - Jefferson, Jackson, Kennedy

TROLL!


lol

Matt23
03-13-2008, 12:15 PM
Can anyone give me a good read or article to why presidents like Lincon, FDR, and Wilson where bad presidents.

I know the basics of why they where but im writing a paper for class and need some good material on the subject.

acptulsa
03-13-2008, 12:40 PM
Can anyone give me a good read or article to why presidents like Lincon, FDR, and Wilson where bad presidents.

I know the basics of why they where but im writing a paper for class and need some good material on the subject.

There's a reference earlier in this thread. Why should we do all your work, kid? Google some of the incidents and writings referenced here and do your own digging. You might find some stuff we don't even know about.

amy31416
03-13-2008, 12:52 PM
Can anyone give me a good read or article to why presidents like Lincon, FDR, and Wilson where bad presidents.

I know the basics of why they where but im writing a paper for class and need some good material on the subject.

There's some really good information here, I believe this was posted earlier:

http://www.mises.org/Books/reassessingpresidency.pdf

jason43
03-13-2008, 01:02 PM
Can anyone give me a good read or article to why presidents like Lincon, FDR, and Wilson where bad presidents.

I know the basics of why they where but im writing a paper for class and need some good material on the subject.

Lincoln's policy made the federal government more powerful than the states. It violated the ideas in the Dec of Indep that people have the right to secede when government is not representing them. He created the draft, the income tax, jailed political oposition and prevented the free press. He send troops into and occupied Maryland, and sent troops in to NYC to target draft resisters.

FDR basically created the whole federal burocracy as we now know it. He left us with unsustainable social programs like social security, gave us the precursors to the FBI and CIA, interred the Japanese, and a whole host of other messes. He set up a government propaganda machine, undermined the free press, and created the welfare state. A lot of people love him for all that and think he was a great president... but you won't find many of those people on this forum:D

Wilson was the precursor to FDR, the UN was his idea, created the federal reserve, supressed anti-war movements with the Sedition Act, created the Vers Treaty that led to WWI and the list goes on and on. This is another one that is viewed by most people as being a great president, but you won't find many fans on here.

johngr
03-13-2008, 01:11 PM
Worst: That traitorous, treasonous, Communist bastard FDR. Should have been strung up. Deserved hanging more than Truman imo Third worst is a tie between Lincoln and LBJ.

nate895
03-13-2008, 03:34 PM
You seem really sure of this. Why?

They would have had citizenship via a William Gladstone opinion ruling on a case as a judge on the North Carolina SC.

They would have been freed as they elected a President that was actively trying to free his slaves, and the laws of most Southern states (when I say most Southern states, I mean all but SC) favored freedom for a slave unless a master could prove that he was, indeed, never freed. It wasn't just enough to show up at court and say "hey, that's my slave" you had to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt too.

sophocles07
03-13-2008, 03:55 PM
They would have had citizenship via a William Gladstone opinion ruling on a case as a judge on the North Carolina SC.

Do you have any sources for this I could read up on (I am interested in the things you've said)?

GunnyFreedom
03-13-2008, 03:59 PM
Best - Nixon, Bush, Wilson, FDR
Worst - Jefferson, Jackson, Kennedy

Ummm, put down the crack pipe and back slowly away. :rolleyes:

nate895
03-13-2008, 05:35 PM
Do you have any sources for this I could read up on (I am interested in the things you've said)?

I would start on A Constitutional History of Secession by John Remington Graham (p. 159 for that info). I would then proceed to the The South was Right by the Kennedy brothers if you want any more info on anything else. Both books are well cited. Those two books had me convinced that what I had been taught at school was a lie. Though, I must admit, I have always had sympathies with the South, primarily because because that is where most of my family lives and my ancestors fought for her.

jyakulis
03-13-2008, 10:47 PM
I would start on A Constitutional History of Secession by John Remington Graham (p. 159 for that info). I would then proceed to the The South was Right by the Kennedy brothers if you want any more info on anything else. Both books are well cited. Those two books had me convinced that what I had been taught at school was a lie. Though, I must admit, I have always had sympathies with the South, primarily because because that is where most of my family lives and my ancestors fought for her.

heh i use to have a lot of sympathy to the south when i was in highschool. my girlfriend in highschool almost dumped me because she alleged i was a racist. i just think it could have been handled peacefully is all.

i'm on the fence about lincoln. it's kind of an argument of the ends justifying the means i guess. i really think lincoln couldn't care less about freeing the slaves, but i think the emancipation proclamation was a strategic move to cripple the south's economy. if it was about slavery then he should have issued the emancipation proclamation the minute the war started.

ultimately though it ended in freedom for everyone, which was good. but it really wasn't all that much better because it ushered in the sharecropping system, which was only a slight step above slavery heh.

it's hard to say now because i think the economies of the north and south were pretty intertwined, but couldn't the north just let them go, continue the abolition movement, and put some sort of embargo on the south until they got their act together. thing is an embargo would probably have devastated the north as well as the south because you lose all the textile trade and a lot of agriculture from the south. so, ultimately i don't know if their could have been a peaceful solution.

i don't know it was a different time and people had different values back then, but allowing slavery to begin with was a recipe for disaster. the founders for the great champions of freedom they were should have known this.

anyway my list is:

worst:
fdr
wilson
i can't really delineate anyone after fdr though. i think they've all been a wash and bought and paid for and deliberately working against the will of the people since.

best:
jefferson
madison
adams

nate895
03-13-2008, 10:52 PM
heh i use to have a lot of sympathy to the south when i was in highschool. my girlfriend in highschool almost dumped me because she alleged i was a racist. i just think it could have been handled peacefully is all.

i'm on the fence about lincoln. it's kind of an argument of the ends justifying the means i guess. i really think lincoln couldn't care less about freeing the slaves, but i think the emancipation proclamation was a strategic move to cripple the south's economy. if it was about slavery then he should have issued the emancipation proclamation the minute the war started.

ultimately though it ended in freedom for everyone, which was good. but it really wasn't all that much better because it ushered in the sharecropping system, which was only a slight step above slavery heh.

it's hard to say now because i think the economies of the north and south were pretty intertwined, but couldn't the north just let them go, continue the abolition movement, and put some sort of embargo on the south until they got their act together. thing is an embargo would probably have devastated the north as well as the south because you lose all the textile trade and a lot of agriculture from the south. so, ultimately i don't know if their could have been a peaceful solution.

i don't know it was a different time and people had different values back then, but allowing slavery to begin with was a recipe for disaster. the founders for the great champions of freedom they were should have known this.

anyway my list is:

worst:
fdr
wilson
i can't really delineate anyone after fdr though. i think they've all been a wash and bought and paid for and deliberately working against the will of the people since.

best:
jefferson
madison
adams

I am in high school, and I have most kids hanging on every word I say as the gospel truth, so I do not have that problem. They aren't exactly into the "South was Right, yeah baby, go south" yet, but they at least accept it is a non-racist idea.

sophocles07
03-14-2008, 06:26 AM
I would start on A Constitutional History of Secession by John Remington Graham (p. 159 for that info). I would then proceed to the The South was Right by the Kennedy brothers if you want any more info on anything else. Both books are well cited. Those two books had me convinced that what I had been taught at school was a lie. Though, I must admit, I have always had sympathies with the South, primarily because because that is where most of my family lives and my ancestors fought for her.

Have you ever read anything by Allen Tate or the other Fugitive writers on the South (Southern Agrarian movment)? They're ideas actually attract me to the idea of an "Old South." But, then again, they owned slaves, so the ideal's a bit hard to keep up. I'll look into what you've suggested.

nate895
03-14-2008, 11:05 PM
Have you ever read anything by Allen Tate or the other Fugitive writers on the South (Southern Agrarian movment)? They're ideas actually attract me to the idea of an "Old South." But, then again, they owned slaves, so the ideal's a bit hard to keep up. I'll look into what you've suggested.

No I haven't, but they are mentioned a few times in The South was Right book I mentioned. Maybe I'll try to read this summer.

Elliott
03-15-2008, 02:10 PM
The other point is that Lincoln didn't really do anything the PEOPLE of his country wanted him to do... The south seceded. The UNION was a SEPARATE country whose constituents demanded a war. The Lincoln bashers on here are setting themselves for a proverbial corner beating if they keep it up.

Do your posts make sense to you?

nate895
03-15-2008, 03:05 PM
Do your posts make sense to you?

That post sounds like babble. Not because I disagree with it, necessarily, but because I have absolutely no clue what it is saying.

IRO-bot
03-15-2008, 04:21 PM
Kade - Here is your source for why Lincoln is arguably the worst president in U.S. history.

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Lincoln-Abraham-Agenda-Unnecessary/dp/0761526463/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205619610&sr=8-1


oh, and please show your sources proving the South "wanted" war.

j650
03-15-2008, 05:11 PM
Best- FDR, Lincoln, Washington

Worst- Grant, Harding, Hoover, George W. Bush

nate895
03-15-2008, 05:53 PM
Best- FDR, Lincoln, Washington

Worst- Grant, Harding, Hoover, George W. Bush

And you consider yourself a Ron Paul supporter?

Flash
03-15-2008, 06:17 PM
whats the opinion on JFK around here? Wasn't he an interventionalist?

sophocles07
03-16-2008, 06:43 AM
whats the opinion on JFK around here? Wasn't he an interventionalist?

Yes. He sucks booty.

Aratus
03-19-2008, 11:32 AM
nate895, if j650 wants to realistically return the SIZE of the federal gov't to that
there institution that FDR knew like the back of his hand, rather than the neatly tidy
governmental apparatus that did often let Cal Coolidge take naps in the afternoon, then
perhaps j650 is implying a transistion phase goal for all the good libertarians here.

Aratus
03-19-2008, 11:34 AM
yes... JFK thought about going into Cuba and it wasn't as well thought out
as was the "splendid lil' war" the Dodge Commission had these hearings about, however
in his defense, its LBJ who really escallated in Southeast Asia for good or ill.

Kade
03-19-2008, 12:25 PM
Aratus is a true troll... actually, I think it's a bot.

Aratus
03-19-2008, 12:32 PM
http://www.harpweek.com/09Cartoon/BrowseByDateCartoon.asp?Month=August&Date=13

i actually knew about the Dodge Commission... Kade! give me credit where
credit is due, and yes, i could do a link to the "Bay of Pigs" when being themed!!!

Kade
03-19-2008, 12:34 PM
http://www.harpweek.com/09Cartoon/BrowseByDateCartoon.asp?Month=August&Date=13

i actually knew about the Dodge Commission... Kade! give me credit where
credit is due, and yes, i could do a link to the "Bay of Pigs" when being themed!!!

Bot.

Aratus
03-19-2008, 12:36 PM
i'm not saying mckinley is a very bad potus...
nor am i saying the same about TR or FDR...

fact is dude, i contrast the size of thah gov't
in FDR's time to both cal coolidge and TODAY!

i heard that at the bay of pigs, quite a few people realized
the initial landing zone was 80 miles further on that coast...

Aratus
03-19-2008, 12:38 PM
dude...


this H. L mencken thingie you have...

i am an affectionado of gonzo hunter thompson...

so don't go f. scott fitzgerald era "grumpy old man" on me!

Aratus
03-19-2008, 12:40 PM
dude...

like heck, hades,
heckle and ben hecht,
aint you seen some
gonzo prose before?

gonzo is a style!

Aratus
03-19-2008, 12:45 PM
gonzo is like jazz as defined by louie armstrong...
so far, the gov't aint got the atavars/avatars who can do gonzo!
i dread wiki, yet i utilize wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism

Galileo Galilei
03-19-2008, 12:49 PM
BEST

1. James Madison

2. Monroe

3. Jefferson

4. Grover Cleveland

5. Washington

6. Quincy Adams

7. Van Buren

8. Barack Obama

9. JFK

10. Jimmy Carter

WORST

1. Woodrow Wilson

2. FDR

3. Lyndon Johnson

4. George Herbert Walker Bush

5. George W. Bush

6. Reagan

7. Polk

8. McKinnley

9. John Tyler

10. Eisenhower

Aratus
03-19-2008, 12:51 PM
neither am i saying JFK is a bad potus...
fact is, i didn't state my own list yet i made a
comment or 2 about quite few people else's lists!

Aratus
03-19-2008, 01:00 PM
FDR, Lincoln, LBJ and R.M Nixon are strong potuses and possibly imperial potuses...

homeland security right now is the huston plan on steroids with a civil servant overlay...

madison was one of our brighter founding fathers... mckinley is janus-like between
two centuries, and as woodrow wilson astutely observed in his book, mckinley
departs from the legislature dominating the whitehouse, which is a by-product
of the trial of andy johnson. wilson in turn goes from keeping out of a war to going
into an already existing war. i just did a link to a book by smedley butler earlier today...

karl rove took mckinley era political lore to a new high recently, and actually mark twain
is an ANTI-IMPERIALIST! not simply a socialist! eugene debs was the socialist of the hour.

coyote_sprit
03-19-2008, 01:04 PM
BEST

1. James Madison

2. Monroe

3. Jefferson

4. Grover Cleveland

5. Washington

6. Quincy Adams

7. Van Buren

8. Barack Obama

9. JFK

10. Jimmy Carter

WORST

1. Woodrow Wilson

2. FDR

3. Lyndon Johnson

4. George Herbert Walker Bush

5. George W. Bush

6. Reagan

7. Polk

8. McKinnley

9. John Tyler

10. Eisenhower

So you have Barack Obama as a best and Jimmy Carter too?

Aratus
03-19-2008, 01:07 PM
that could be what the public may do this november.
if obama moves past hillary and mccain does a verbal
faux-pas once again in the mass media gloriously...

HOLLYWOOD
03-19-2008, 01:09 PM
I would like to take this time to point out that 4 out of the 5 Presidents you chose were Non-Christians.

Grover Cleveland was Presbyterian.

Just a thought.

Yeah... It's called Separation of Church and State... notice they were the most rational pragmatic presidents?

The latest example... look how that POS; Pandering, Plageristic, Silver-Tongued Devil Presidential GOP HACK MIKE HUCKABEE? His "HOLY CRUSADE" playing the regional card, having those SLIMY TELEVANGIST PANDER monies for the people for his GAIN. It goes on and on... shows you the the mental psychee of the American voters... do we deserve what we believe?

Plainly, American Voters on the majority, are the Dumbest, Moronic, Idiots with the absolute most Pathetic, Irrational reasons to supporting some of these Presidential Hacks. Also Lazy not to do their research...ARGH!

Kade
03-19-2008, 01:11 PM
Yeah... It's called Separation of Church and State... notice they were the most rational pragmatic presidents?

The latest example... look how that POS; Pandering, Plageristic, Silver-Tongued Devil Presidential GOP HACK MIKE HUCKABEE? His "HOLY CRUSADE" playing the regional card, having those SLIMY TELEVANGIST PANDER monies for the people for his GAIN. It goes on and on... shows you the the mental psychee of the American voters... do we deserve what we believe?

Plainly, American Voters on the majority, are the Dumbest, Moronic, Idiots with the absolute most Pathetic, Irrational reasons to supporting some of these Presidential Hacks. Also Lazy not to do their research...ARGH!

I can't disagree with anything you've said here. :)

Galileo Galilei
03-19-2008, 01:11 PM
So you have Barack Obama as a best and Jimmy Carter too?

compared to every other president we've had recently, Carter was the least corrupt, least militaristic, and the softest drug warrior.

Obama has the potential to be a good president because he is now getting the majority of his campaign money, like Ron Paul, on the Internet, so he has the potential to be free of special interest money. He also promises to bring our troops home, so we can only hope that he will do that.

Any other comments?

Aratus
03-19-2008, 01:14 PM
obama seems to not be a pawn of the obvious special interests...
the clintons in the 1990s had a small group of democrat fatcats
who had a gravitas equal to the republican ones around both bushes...

Aratus
12-28-2008, 03:43 PM
obama, who has yet to be sworn in, has a fulsome range of comparisons...
g.w bush over time may be eased up on, yet is at the lists bottom... now

Freedom 4 all
12-28-2008, 04:54 PM
Worsts: Bush and LBJ but the worst thing about him is his defeat of Goldwater. How the hell did he get such a big mandate for jackassery against common sense?

Bests: Jefferson, Washington

asimplegirl
12-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Well, I have quite a few for small reasons that just don't agree with my personal politics. The only one I can think of off the top of my head as an *actual* BAD president would have to be Lincoln. Starting a war that killed over 600,000 people that wanted to secede peacefully ranks right up there as my number one reason for not liking him. And that does not even include the people from his own side.

I feel that this government will one day do this type of thing again, considering that history has a way of repeating itself, and I feel that we are on our way with rights being denied our own citizens. Our government never has, and never will let any section of it go, especially when money is involved. And, no matter where in the world, if there is a war, you'd better believe we have a stake in it.

Please do not let this start another debate on the civil war. I did not intend for that to be the outcome, I was answering the question from my opinion only.

scandinaviany3
12-28-2008, 06:59 PM
The worst presidents would go:

FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
LBJ
Dubya

pretty close to the truth

scandinaviany3
12-28-2008, 07:00 PM
My favorite: Andrew Jackson for fighting against the banks

Worst: Bush


Seem to agree on this set but add in bush senior

The_Orlonater
12-28-2008, 07:08 PM
If you have read America's Great Depression, Coolidge wasn't that great.

Harding was OK.

xd9fan
12-29-2008, 07:07 PM
Bush is the worst in my lifetime....so far
He destroyed my Grand old party.

haaaylee
12-30-2008, 01:36 AM
so what made some of these great presidents so great?

Kludge
12-30-2008, 01:45 AM
so what made some of these great presidents so great?

Good choices and good circumstances, I imagine.

haaaylee
12-30-2008, 11:55 AM
Good choices and good circumstances, I imagine.

Specifically though. Are there any good documentaries on some of these guys maybe?