The Sheer Irony: Time to Reap What You Sow

[Kade]

Homeschooling shot down in California (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL)

Please, I beg of you, bitch now.

I can't wait for the "please, please Dep. of Education, please come help us!"

[yongrel]

What point are you trying to make?

[Kade]

What point are you trying to make?

That people here favor the sovereignty of the state over certain issues only when those issues favor a stance they have.

[Theocrat]

Homeschooling shot down in California (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL)

Please, I beg of you, bitch now.

I can't wait for the "please, please Dep. of Education, please come help us!"

Thanks for the article, Kade! That is just madness! Our country is slowing becoming communistic, for sure. Who the hell does the State of California think it is to tell a parent what's best for his or her own child, especially when the parent didn't have to ask permission from the State to have their child?! I guess I'll never move to California. What a tragedy!

[Melissa]

I think the comments are the scary part but the ruling is just wrong

[Kade]

Thanks for the article, Kade! That is just madness! Our country is slowing becoming communistic, for sure. Who the hell does the State of California think it is to tell a parent what's best for his or her own child, especially when the parent didn't have to ask permission from the State to have their child?! I guess I'll never move to California. What a tragedy!

Yea. Damn states, making their own laws.. it is a tragedy. They should obey the Federal Government Mandates.

[aravoth]

Homeschooling shot down in California (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL)

Please, I beg of you, bitch now.

I can't wait for the "please, please Dep. of Education, please come help us!"

Glad you think this is funny.

[Zolah]

Yea. Damn states, making their own laws.. it is a tragedy. They should obey the Federal Government Mandates.

The problem isn't that the states are free to enforce some of their own laws, the problem is that the state is ran by morons.

[Tdcci]

The problem isn't that the states are free to enforce some of their own laws, the problem is that the state is ran by morons.

Those godless liberal homosexuals!

Did you even look at the case? The children complained of abuse, and the state investigated. They found that they were being taught by a shoddy Christian school (that was only in session for 4 days a year!) without properly credentialed teachers. The parents tried using their religion as an offense I don't want my children exposed to alternative lifestyles! then argued they were homeschooling. It's a tragedy for the uncredentialed secular homsechoolers, but how else could the court protect the children? If you're serious about homeschooling, get credentials.

[Highland]

I just emailed the LA ACLU this article...talked to the Executive Director yesterday about the LVA technology (lie detector that cops use without consent)...so maybe they will deal with this as well.

[Highland]

Yea. Damn states, making their own laws.. it is a tragedy. They should obey the Federal Government Mandates.

Yes Kade...the Feds have no authority over state education agencies....it is still considered a voluntary curriculum. They just bully us with threats about not getting block grants from taxes levied from indiv. states...which is bs because it is the states money in the first place and the feds hold it for a year (making interest) and then send it down in block grants for specific purposes...and if you do not have a grant-writer in your LEA...you can't get the money because it is all competitive grants.

Basically...each state chooses and if they choose poorly they will suffer the consequences...like CA is getting ready to do. They have awful schools anyway...so home schoolers will revolt over this I hope. their schools are very overcrowded.

[Theocrat]

Yea. Damn states, making their own laws.. it is a tragedy. They should obey the Federal Government Mandates.

I'm not trying to imply that the States do not have the right or obligation to make their own laws; I'm just saying that, like the Federal government, they ought to have limited jurisdiction as a civil governmental institution. That's why each State has its own Constitution to limit its own powers against its people.

A civil government should not have anything to do with education, for that is the role and responsibility of the family. The parents have a primary duty to their children in instructing, nurturing, and discipling them as needed. I think this article you've posted is a great example of how far civil government will reach its arm in order that it may secure more power for itself "for the greater good," of course. It is dangerous when any civil government does this because it usually infringes upon or eradicates the God-given rights of its citizens. I immediately think of Hitler's Nazi Germany and his willingness to control the textbooks of his country in order to inculcate the youth in his Nazi doctrines.

I just take the approach that civil government governs best when it governs least, and the smallest groups of society, on a local level, should have the most power in governing themselves. This is where I believe the issue of education should be taken care of, beginning in the home. That's why I was disgusted and angry with the article.

[Tdcci]

I just take the approach that civil government governs best when it governs least,

Power is a muscle, if you don't use it easily and often you will lose it. The state is the only thing that can protect us from the tyranny of the church.

[aravoth]

Power is a muscle, if you don't use it easily and often you will lose it. The state is the only thing that can protect us from the tyranny of the church.

you protect yourself from tyranny you weak fool.

[Tdcci]

you protect yourself from tyranny you weak fool.

Perhaps from other individuals, but the brainwashed are a majority in this country, and our Republican government was designed to protect the minority from mob rule. I welcome all new advances in government intending to equalize the power gap between the people and the church hierarchy.

[aravoth]

Perhaps from other individuals, but the brainwashed are a majority in this country, and our Republican government was designed to protect the minority from mob rule. I welcome all new advances in government intending to equalize the power gap between the people and the church hierarchy.

your "new advances" are forms of control. A boot heel on the populations skull meant to keep everyone in mediocrity. No one has forced you to be religious. Your perception of reality is the problem, Stop creating problems to whine about and you may find the problems will go away.

[LEK]

If you're serious about homeschooling, get credentials.

And what would those credentials be?

[LEK]

I just take the approach that civil government governs best when it governs least, and the smallest groups of society, on a local level, should have the most power in governing themselves. This is where I believe the issue of education should be taken care of, beginning in the home. That's why I was disgusted and angry with the article.

well said...

[Theocrat]

Power is a muscle, if you don't use it easily and often you will lose it.

I'm sorry, but this is just a weak analogy. Comparing governmental power to a biological muscle is simply like comparing apples to oranges. They both are different in their compositional structures as well as how they function in either the body of society or the human body. Civil governments do have power, but their power, nonetheless, should be limited. This is why we have drafted constitutions in our American republic because of the abuses of governmental power in other countries in history. Once again, I don't believe that general education is a power that should be given to any civil government because they have no authority nor basis to act in such a way. Civil government should provide for defense to protect its citizens, and it should punish evildoers, primarily. I say let the people decide how and what they should be educated about, and let it occur on a local level, beginning in the home.


The state is the only thing that can protect us from the tyranny of the church.

There's nothing tyrannical about the Church as an institution; it's the people who are involved in it that determine whether the Church will be tyrannical or peaceful. The same applies to civil government.

[Theocrat]

And what would those credentials be?

This is an excellent question, LEK!

[Tdcci]

And what would those credentials be?

"Yet the appeals court said state law has been clear since at least 1953, when another appellate court rejected a challenge by homeschooling parents to California's compulsory education statutes. Those statutes require children ages 6 to 18 to attend a full-time day school, either public or private, or to be instructed by a tutor who holds a state credential for the child's grade level."

[Lois]

Yes, when you say "Get credentials" if you want to homeschool, you can't mean a parent who wants to homeschool should go to college for 4 or 5 years and get a teaching degree! :eek::eek:

[Tdcci]

That's exactly what I mean.

[Theocrat]

Yes, when you say "Get credentials" if you want to homeschool, you can't mean a parent who wants to homeschool should go to college for 4 or 5 years and get a teaching degree! :eek::eek:

Lois, you've touched on the issue I have a problem with. As free Americans (ideally speaking) possessing God-given rights and duties, we do not need to get a degree just to educate our own kids! Children are a gift from God, not the State. Do men and women have to get degrees before they can have children? To me, that seems to be your implication, though I don't wish to make it to much of a slippery slope. The point is education is a right given to us by God, and it is only He Who can tell us what our "credentials" should be in the education of our kids.

I suspect you may not agree with the last part of my statement, but my assertion is merely that education exists outside of the hands and control of civil government. Besides, do you imagine how difficult and unstable it would be for American civil government, which is political in nature (through partisan representation), to handle scholastic criteria for any homeschool educator which may or may not agree with the partisan/philosophical credential requirements imposed on them by the civil government? That's just one of the cracks in the planks of civil governmental involvement in education, in my opinion.

[Bossobass]

And what would those credentials be?

20 years ago when we were deciding whether or not to home school our first son, I came across a study:

In an elementary school the 1st grade was divided into two groups. The first group was taught the curriculum by the 6th graders. The second was taught by the teachers.

At the end of the semester the 1st graders were tested. The ones taught by the 6th graders scored higher, across the board.

So much for accreditation.

Bosso

[Kade]

I'm not trying to imply that the States do not have the right or obligation to make their own laws; I'm just saying that, like the Federal government, they ought to have limited jurisdiction as a civil governmental institution. That's why each State has its own Constitution to limit its own powers against its people.

A civil government should not have anything to do with education, for that is the role and responsibility of the family. The parents have a primary duty to their children in instructing, nurturing, and discipling them as needed. I think this article you've posted is a great example of how far civil government will reach its arm in order that it may secure more power for itself "for the greater good," of course. It is dangerous when any civil government does this because it usually infringes upon or eradicates the God-given rights of its citizens. I immediately think of Hitler's Nazi Germany and his willingness to control the textbooks of his country in order to inculcate the youth in his Nazi doctrines.

I just take the approach that civil government governs best when it governs least, and the smallest groups of society, on a local level, should have the most power in governing themselves. This is where I believe the issue of education should be taken care of, beginning in the home. That's why I was disgusted and angry with the article.

California also has a strict anti-establishment clause in it's own Constitution.

[klamath]

That people here favor the sovereignty of the state over certain issues only when those issues favor a stance they have.

Maybe we will just keep it at state level. As much as I dislike Arnold I agree with him here in the Email he just sent out.

"Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children. Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will."

[inibo]

Power is a muscle, if you don't use it easily and often you will lose it. The state is the only thing that can protect us from the tyranny of the church.


The tyranny of the Church?

You are looking at the wrong institution.

No American Church ever put a person in prison for refusing to fight in an illegal war. No American Church ever put a person in prison for refusing to submit to the extortion known as taxes. No American Church ever put a person in prison for smoking a plant. No American Church ever tased anyone for failing to be submissive enough after being stopped for speeding. No American Church ever broke into an innocent person's home in the middle of the night and shot them to death based on the testimony of a paid informant. However, Federal, State and Local governments do this sort of thing every day. I could go on and on.

BTW, I am not a Christian; I am a thorough-going agnostic pagan, but I know who my enemies are and they don't praise Jesus--unless it gets them votes.

[Nirvikalpa]

Deliberate dumbing down of America...

[Tdcci]

No American Church ever put a person in prison for <refusing to comply with x government policy>

Only because they are refused the power by the Constitution. What happens when the church is given more power than the state? The French Revolution.

[Kade]

Maybe we will just keep it at state level. As much as I dislike Arnold I agree with him here in the Email he just sent out.

"Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children. Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will."

Yea, Arnold is a solid governor, in my lowly opinion.

[notcarljung]

Power is a muscle, if you don't use it easily and often you will lose it. The state is the only thing that can protect us from the tyranny of the church.

Oh, but the state is traditionally the means churches use to bring that tyranny.

A similar form of tyranny is present in this situation. It's the same collectivist, minority suppressing logic.

Such is the way of the world tho. *sigh*

[AisA1787]

Those godless liberal homosexuals!

Did you even look at the case? The children complained of abuse, and the state investigated. They found that they were being taught by a shoddy Christian school (that was only in session for 4 days a year!) without properly credentialed teachers. The parents tried using their religion as an offense I don't want my children exposed to alternative lifestyles! then argued they were homeschooling. It's a tragedy for the uncredentialed secular homsechoolers, but how else could the court protect the children? If you're serious about homeschooling, get credentials.

Wow... Okay let's start from the beginning. A few rhetorical questions:

1) Do you somehow think that legislators are superior to citizens and that only they have ability to decide which citizens are and aren't qualified to teach their own children?

2) Do you like the idea of surrendering your individual rights to a state or federal government that, if you're lucky, will give your rights back to you if they deem you so worthy?

3) How many "credentialed" teachers have you actually had a conversation with about education? I'm not bashing all credentialed teachers; there are many that I know who are fantastic educators. But that is not the rule -- the rule seems to be that everywhere you see the word "credentialed" in reference to teachers you can replace it with "brainwashed by the state."

You need to look no further than the judge's comments on the ruling:

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue."

Ah, yes... "loyalty to the state." This is, of course, the primary goal of public education. At least they admit it.

How else could the court protect the children? Here's a simple idea - they could protect the children by protecting the children. NOT by stripping all adults of their rights.

p.s. theism and atheism have nothing to do with it - there are responsible and irresponsible individuals in both groups.