WE THE PEOPLE files suit against Iowa

[ButchHowdy]

Yes, they are pro Ron Paul but this is about being anti-Diebold

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-08-15.htm

[noxagol]

"People that vote decide nothing, people who count the votes decide everything" Joseph Stalin.

"I don't care who votes, so long as I get to count them" Joseph Stalin.

[rich34]

This might not be a good idea for congressman Paul.

[robatsu]

They should do this as non-partisans.

[Revolution9]

If they have nothing to hide then what would the big deal be? We all know they are hackable. Why is it acceptable to lie down and take it? All ballots should be hand counted with Volunteers overseeing the count from each party involved in the vote.. This should not be something to fight against UNLESS you are planning to rig the vote or ignore ballots. I find the "the machine malfunctioned" a little tooooo convenient. People do not malfunction in this manner.

Best
Randy

[d991]

No offence but I find the people who are wasting their time on endeavors like this are hurting Ron Paul's campaign in two ways:

1) Making Ron Paul supporters look like sore losers and conspiracy theorists. Now I know I will get attacked by many saying "DIEBOLD IS HACKABLE" or "YOU MUST BE ONE OF THEM, THE VOTE WAS A FRAUD" but what evidence do you have of voter fraud?! Simply because Diebold CAN possibly be hacked doesn't mean it was. The fact that there was a malfunction does NOT mean there was some conspiracy against Ron Paul. Why don't you people look at EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE rather than going out on a limb all the time. Romney bussed in probably THOUSANDS of Iowans to vote for him, and the other guys that placed 2-4 did the same (Huckabee got voters from the FairTax busses according to some reports.) If you take your head out of the sand rather than ignore this evidence, maybe you will start to understand that Ron Paul did not get busses, and therefore he received less votes. Just because YOU (and a lot of people on these pro Ron Paul websites) support him 100% it does not mean that he instantly has massive support.

I believe that the voting machines should be investigated and checks need to be put in place, but NOT because of this Iowa straw poll. All the candidates were apparently present during the counting. I haven't heard Ron Paul say he thought there was a problem with the voting in Ames!!
Everyone admits that there were hundreds of Ron Paul supporters from out-of-state, and so while he had a great and enthusiastic showing, it is very possible that the votes ended up the way they did.

2) By spending your time and energy (and possibly money) going around and trying to claim fraud at the straw poll, you're spending time that you could have used to support Ron Paul.


Honestly I am a big Ron Paul supporter. I really like his message but some of his supporters are starting to annoy me. Just like the 9/11 truthers like to cherry-pick pieces of information to justify some of their claims, either they are ignorant of other information available or they just don't care to listen to it. You can read books like "The 9/11 Hijackers: Who They Were, Why They Did It" which goes into detail about people like Mohammed Atta and their actions before they carried out the attacks. You can read books like "Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire" which explains U.S. foreign policy and the hatred it causes, especially in the Middle East. You can read "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" which talks about tactics adopted by terrorist groups in response to foreign occupation of other countries. I have read all these books. Do you think these authors are in on 9/11? Do you think they just don't know the "TRUTH"? These authors have done their research. The hijackers were real. Their motivations are available for all to see. Popular Mechanics debunked the 9/11 myths out there.

Sorry for the long post but I had to get this off my chest. I really don't care what you will say to tell me I'm wrong. Instead go read some of these books. Stop watching loose change and other videos online. And it's alright if you never do. I heard some 9/11 truthers when they protested in Toronto recently. They think everyone who doesn't subscibe to their theories is a mindless drone like the people in the Matrix who are oblivious to everything around them.

[Sematary]

No offence but I find the people who are wasting their time on endeavors like this are hurting Ron Paul's campaign in two ways:

1) Making Ron Paul supporters look like sore losers and conspiracy theorists. Now I know I will get attacked by many saying "DIEBOLD IS HACKABLE" or "YOU MUST BE ONE OF THEM, THE VOTE WAS A FRAUD" but what evidence do you have of voter fraud?! Simply because Diebold CAN possibly be hacked doesn't mean it was. The fact that there was a malfunction does NOT mean there was some conspiracy against Ron Paul. Why don't you people look at EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE rather than going out on a limb all the time. Romney bussed in probably THOUSANDS of Iowans to vote for him, and the other guys that placed 2-4 did the same (Huckabee got voters from the FairTax busses according to some reports.) If you take your head out of the sand rather than ignore this evidence, maybe you will start to understand that Ron Paul did not get busses, and therefore he received less votes. Just because YOU (and a lot of people on these pro Ron Paul websites) support him 100% it does not mean that he instantly has massive support.

I believe that the voting machines should be investigated and checks need to be put in place, but NOT because of this Iowa straw poll. All the candidates were apparently present during the counting. I haven't heard Ron Paul say he thought there was a problem with the voting in Ames!!
Everyone admits that there were hundreds of Ron Paul supporters from out-of-state, and so while he had a great and enthusiastic showing, it is very possible that the votes ended up the way they did.

2) By spending your time and energy (and possibly money) going around and trying to claim fraud at the straw poll, you're spending time that you could have used to support Ron Paul.


Honestly I am a big Ron Paul supporter. I really like his message but some of his supporters are starting to annoy me. Just like the 9/11 truthers like to cherry-pick pieces of information to justify some of their claims, either they are ignorant of other information available or they just don't care to listen to it. You can read books like "The 9/11 Hijackers: Who They Were, Why They Did It" which goes into detail about people like Mohammed Atta and their actions before they carried out the attacks. You can read books like "Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire" which explains U.S. foreign policy and the hatred it causes, especially in the Middle East. You can read "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" which talks about tactics adopted by terrorist groups in response to foreign occupation of other countries. I have read all these books. Do you think these authors are in on 9/11? Do you think they just don't know the "TRUTH"? These authors have done their research. The hijackers were real. Their motivations are available for all to see. Popular Mechanics debunked the 9/11 myths out there.

Sorry for the long post but I had to get this off my chest. I really don't care what you will say to tell me I'm wrong. Instead go read some of these books. Stop watching loose change and other videos online. And it's alright if you never do. I heard some 9/11 truthers when they protested in Toronto recently. They think everyone who doesn't subscibe to their theories is a mindless drone like the people in the Matrix who are oblivious to everything around them.

People are going to move forward with this whether you and I, or anyone else, thinks it is a waste of time or not. It was a straw poll for God's sake, not the presidency itself. I personally think the numbers are probably spot on considering how the other candidates bussed people in and such.

[bc2208]

d991,

Totally agree about this suit - what's the best that could happen, a recount and we get 4th instead of 5th? Just makes it look bitter. Ron Paul has no plans of a negative campaign, and neither should we.

While I agree that many in the 9/11 movement like to irresponsibly answer their own questions, the questions do remain. The Popular Mechanics article claimed that the reason the hole at the Pentagon was so small was because when a plane hits a building, it doesn't create a cutout of itself. Well, that happened at both towers.

Nonetheless the 9/11 movement should stay as far from Ron Paul as possible.

[Razmear]

d991,

While I agree that many in the 9/11 movement like to irresponsibly answer their own questions, the questions do remain. The Popular Mechanics article claimed that the reason the hole at the Pentagon was so small was because when a plane hits a building, it doesn't create a cutout of itself. Well, that happened at both towers.


Um, towers were glass, pentagon was concrete, which one breaks easier?

Anyways, I'm glad these folks are pushing for a recount, nothing on the press release mentions Ron Paul, and it will help to keep the poll operators honest if they think they will be challenged if they do anything sneaky.

Even if the results show that RP got less votes, I think a manual recount is a good idea.

eb

[AdamT]

The suit is a good idea and I'm glad someone has done it. If the Iowa GOP did manipulate the results to place RP lower than they & the MSM could deal with, it absolutely needs to be exposed. Otherwise, what's stopping them from doing it again and again in the run up to the primaries and beyond. There is irrefutable proof the 2004 election was stolen, mainly in corrupt Ohio, and this has been a disaster to the US Constitution and everything else in the world. Look into it.

All our effort will be for nothing if they just stealthly manipulate the results to keep him out. And no one would be the wiser to it. If the election is not going to be fair, what's the point! IT NEEDS TO BE 100% FAIR AND UN-MANIPULATED. The criminal GOP operatives need to know we will not stand for these kind of shenanigans. And lawsuits are just the way to "convince" them to keep their grubby little hands off the ballad box!

[fedup100]

Finally.....there needs to be more lawsuits against the media also.....this is war people and it will take fighting fire with fire.

These people are ruthless, and you better match them or loose.

No it wasn't just a straw poll. This would have put Paul in a place where they would have had to acknowledge him.

No they could not have entirely shunned him. Now because of the lies about the winners, more losers are still in the race using the support and monies Paul needed.

[Marshall]

People are going to move forward with this whether you and I, or anyone else, thinks it is a waste of time or not. It was a straw poll for God's sake, not the presidency itself. I personally think the numbers are probably spot on considering how the other candidates bussed people in and such.

I think that the numbers were more then likely correct. However, when it does come time for the presidential election, I'd rather not be voting on a machine. We don't even get paper ballots where I live. And no, I don't think that this should be attached to Ron Paul, but I also don't think people should ignore the problem simply because someone somewhere might assume that you're an RP supporter.

[fletcher]

The straw poll is a private fund raiser. You can't tell them how to count their votes. I was at the straw poll. The results are accurate.

[Marshall]

The straw poll is a private fund raiser. You can't tell them how to count their votes. I was at the straw poll. The results are accurate.

Using government machines and employees that we the people fund. So yes, we can. Or they can get their own machines and own employees and not have anyone hassle them.

[BLS]

I say just let em have at it.

There's obviously concern about the Diebolds, and better to start with the Straw Polls then waiting till the Presidential Election to complain.

The one thing I like about RP supporters, is that while I simply wouldn't have the nads to sit in front a judge and MAKE them prove these machines are honest, some people have zero problem with it, and they seem to be the logical choice for this kind of task.

God Bless em all as far as I'm concerned. Besides...it's not like we're going to get them to quit.

[fletcher]

Using government machines and employees that we the people fund. So yes, we can. Or they can get their own machines and own employees and not have anyone hassle them.

They paid for the machines and the government employees volunteered. They can do what they want. Do you want the government coming to your house and telling you how to run your life? I don't, which is why I support Ron.

[wbbgjr]

we definitely have some passionate supporters. however, please keep in mind that as much as we don't like it, we must win their support eventually. as we all can see, this kind of tactic tends to turn people against the 'conspiracy theorists'. notice that even some fellow ron paul supporters are getting angry at this.

[Craig_R]

yeah it sure is going to hurt the Ron Paul campaign ?

wtf

do people not understand these machines are seriously flawed?
or that this organization is attempting to make sure everyones votes are counted and counted right, not only in the straw poll but all elections present and future ?

I didnt see anything in that about RP, I did see concerned americans attempting to keep our voting process legitamate. I applaud them for it.

This org is doing and has done all of us citizens a great service.

[ButchHowdy]

yeah it sure is going to hurt the Ron Paul campaign ?

wtf

do people not understand these machines are seriously flawed?
or that this organization is attempting to make sure everyones votes are counted and counted right, not only in the straw poll but all elections present and future ?

I didnt see anything in that about RP, I did see concerned americans attempting to keep our voting process legitamate. I applaud them for it.

This org is doing and has done all of us citizens a great service.


AMEN!! Article says NOTHING about RP

[Highmesa]

I posted this in the other Iowa truther thread regarding this effort:
http://votefraud.org/iowa_straw_poll_2007_report_affidavit_part1.htm

---------------------------

Time to make something positive out of this.

I offer this up to the the straw poll truthers.

I am willing to make a bet with one of you. For every affidavit you collect over 1,000, I will donate $1 to the campaign. For every affidavit under 1,000, you donate $1 to the campaign. We have to set some kind of deadline - is Nov. 1st long enough?

[UtahApocalypse]

yeah it sure is going to hurt the Ron Paul campaign ?

wtf

do people not understand these machines are seriously flawed?
or that this organization is attempting to make sure everyones votes are counted and counted right, not only in the straw poll but all elections present and future ?

I didnt see anything in that about RP, I did see concerned americans attempting to keep our voting process legitamate. I applaud them for it.

This org is doing and has done all of us citizens a great service.


I agree that vote fraud is a real concern. I don't think it happened in Iowa, or we would not have done so awesome. The thing is like it or not this is one of those things you have to make a choice:

Do you support Ron Paul and work to get him in the Whitehouse to effect change?

Do you start going after the system itself and in the mean time destroy any chance at all of people starting to follow Ron Paul?

You may not see it, you may not believe it, you may not even care.... But I guarantee that if we chase down worthless suits against the Iowa event the campaign will be all but finished.

[TheEvilDetector]

Yes, they are pro Ron Paul but this is about being anti-Diebold

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-08-15.htm

I read the entire thing.

Judge's opinion is logically flawed. Judge's opinion also engages in circular reasoning.

Judge's is not as smart as a cursory reading of his judgement might show.

Here is my take on it.

Defendants and in fact the entire people of this nation who are aware of the straw poll and use the straw poll results when forming their opinions of the candidates suffer harm because they may form opinions based on a poll which cannot by its procedure ensure any accuracy whatsoever and moreover can produce purposefully fraudulent results since open and transparent processes for vote accumulation and counting are not implemented.

Since harm is suffered, relief must be granted and yet it was not.

The reason for this claim is as follows:

1) Straw poll widely publicised in MSM as a measure of candidates strength. Comparisons often made to past polls and their influence on the presidential election.
MSM endorses this poll as a good test of the strength of candidate's campaigns thus an implicit claim to accuracy is made nationally.

2) Straw poll is in fact used by some candidates in order to judge viability of their campaigns. Straw poll thus has a real effect on public elections, since it can narrow the field of candidates. This can be proven directly.

3) Straw poll results widely reported in MSM.

4) MSM viewers have an expectation of the accuracy in the report of this poll. If MSM viewers could not hold such an expectation, this would imply that the straw poll results mean nothing. It would put the existence and viability of the straw poll itself in jeopardy due to negative public opinion.

5) Contract entered into when purchasing ticket for the right to vote entails a reasonable expectation of accuracy of the vote. For if the purchaser were not allowed to hold such an expectation, why would one vote in a process where accuracy was not assured? This lack of assumption of accuracy would render the entire exercise absurd and the ticket would not be purchased or the vote option would not be utilised. It is essential therefore to provide the buyer with assurances and to follow this up with appropriate methods that their expectation of vote accuracy is a fair one which is being addressed.

6) Accuracy of the vote cannot be assured without an open and transparent process.

7) In short, the basis of validity of any poll, is its accuracy. Since suggested provisions to ensure accuracy are completely sidestepped, leading one to question the poll's validity.

The straw poll is a quasi private and public event, with capacity to measurably affect public primaries and by extension public general election.

It cannot hide under the strictly private function protections because it isn't one in a functional sense, although it may be one in the organisational sense.

Straw poll tickets are contracts, vote aspect of the contract entails an expectation of accuracy.

Shameless closed door counting provides an uninhibited opportunity for fraud and thus turns any reasonable expectation of accuracy into wishful thinking.

If the court finds no basis under which to direct the counting operations of the poll, it should at least mandate the opportunity to verify the count to the people without suffering application of prohibitively expensive levies for the privilege.

The public have already suffered irreparable harm due to the absence of openness and transparency in the counting processes.

Judge was wrong.

I do not solely fault the judge, part of the blame must lie with the naive argument of the plaintiff.

[Craig_R]

I posted this in the other Iowa truther thread regarding this effort:
http://votefraud.org/iowa_straw_poll_2007_report_affidavit_part1.htm

---------------------------

Time to make something positive out of this.

I offer this up to the the straw poll truthers.

I am willing to make a bet with one of you. For every affidavit you collect over 1,000, I will donate $1 to the campaign. For every affidavit under 1,000, you donate $1 to the campaign. We have to set some kind of deadline - is Nov. 1st long enough?

one has nothing to do with the other. this is about banning diebold machines not about RP. its about the integrity of our elections

[Elwar]

The only way to get the establishment to question the Diebold machines is to make them believe that Ron Paul supporters have found out how to hack them and plan on doing that very thing in the primaries.

Saying something like:
"Some people say that there's a group of Ron Paul supporters who have been studying these diebold machines and have figured out a way to get their candidate the nomination."

The Old Media uses that "Some people say" line all the time...

[Craig_R]

I agree that vote fraud is a real concern. I don't think it happened in Iowa, or we would not have done so awesome. The thing is like it or not this is one of those things you have to make a choice:

Do you support Ron Paul and work to get him in the Whitehouse to effect change?

Do you start going after the system itself and in the mean time destroy any chance at all of people starting to follow Ron Paul?

You may not see it, you may not believe it, you may not even care.... But I guarantee that if we chase down worthless suits against the Iowa event the campaign will be all but finished.


your guarantee means nothing to me, theres no reason both cant be done simultaneously.

once again I repeat, the WTP foundation filed suits to get transparent voting - they said nothing about RP

we cant get RP elected if the machines get hacked

[TheEvilDetector]

your guarantee means nothing to me, theres no reason both cant be done simultaneously.

once again I repeat, the WTP foundation filed suits to get transparent voting - they said nothing about RP

we cant get RP elected if the machines get hacked

It is absolutely essential that eventually case law precedent is set in favour of mandatory openness in straw polls counting procedures.

This has to go the way primaries went.

Otherwise real democracy is in real trouble, since nothing would stop the establishment from orchestrating dozens of fraudulent straw polls to forcibly shift public opinion whilst the public enjoys no legal basis whatsoever to pursue even a semblance of accuracy in straw poll vote counts.

[cac1963]

I just like the fact that these efforts to get at the ballots are forcing the authorities to defend keeping ballots secretly hidden from the public's eyes. The louder it gets the more people want to know, "what have they got to hide."

[Ron Paul Fan]

AMEN!! Article says NOTHING about RP

If the article has nothing to do with Ron Paul, then why did you post it on the Ron Paul News and Discussion part of the forum? I guess this lawsuit does no harm, but it's a little distracting seeing all of these lawsuit and conspiracy theory threads on the front page of the forum which takes away from threads that want to spread the message and organize supporters for the benefit of Ron Paul, not ourselves. I think the lawsuit is a waste of time because if Ron Paul or Tommy Thompson, who dropped out of the race because of this btw, thought it was rigged and wanted a recount they would do it themselves. None of the competitors think it was rigged in anyone's favor so I would just drop it. But you're certainly entitled to do what you've gotta do. If it's got nothing to do with Ron Paul though like you say, then what's wrong with putting it over in general topics so the rest of us can focus on spreading the message of peace, freedom, and prosperity.

[Lord Xar]

I hear ALL the rhetoric about how this is bad and such..

I am am not sure people understand this..

lets investigate some things here..

1. Do you believe the DIEBOLD machines are used to sway elections?
2. Do you believe Ron Paul has a chance IF the votes are counted using Diebold machines?

This lawsuite will set precedence. There is a huge stink brewing about the badness of these machines and if we do NOT get on this now, you think 3 weeks before the big one they will change it up... then if he looses we will all say "awww, those damh diebolds..."

To me, IF THOSE DIEBOLDS are not swept away we will loose. Why do you think they exist? Why do you think the sourcecode is secret? Why do you think they count it with no outside oversite? Once ANY QUESTION came up about those machines a FULL INVESTIGATION whould have ensued... but no. A few people went to jail, but they are still here. That is the way of our corrupt system.. we make a slight ruckus and let the mob quiet down...

That lawsuit will set a precedent in that other counties will move away from diebolds.. plus, other states.. ie, california have already started moving away from diebolds because of their reputation.

[WannaBfree]

Campaign spokesman Jesse Benton yesterday (Aug 15th) on the Alex Jones show:

"The scary thing, Alex, these Diebold machines, we really really need to examine these things over the long haul, because you're right, the transparency, the integrity of the voting process is bigger than Ron Paul, bigger than this election, it is just a huge issue."

[CurtisLow]

yeah it sure is going to hurt the Ron Paul campaign ?

wtf

do people not understand these machines are seriously flawed?
or that this organization is attempting to make sure everyones votes are counted and counted right, not only in the straw poll but all elections present and future ?

I didn't see anything in that about RP, I did see concerned Americans attempting to keep our voting process legitimate. I applaud them for it.

This org is doing and has done all of us citizens a great service.

Well said! We need to fix this problem now!This is NOT about Ron Paul, this is about protecting the truth of a vote count.

[Mr. White]

Well said! We need to fix this problem now!This is NOT about Ron Paul, this is about protecting the truth of a vote count.

Then stop posting about it in ron paul news and discussion. There's an issues for america forum for this.

[CurtisLow]

I did not start this thread.


Is there a conflict of interest from the manufacturers of this technology? You bet your butt there is!
Don't believe me, let's see what Diebold themselves have to say about their political contributions by their own board and officers.... (FYI this information is almost extinct on the net now so get it while you can)


www.diebold.com...
Board of Directors
Louis V. Bockius III (2,4,5)
6/28/00 $15,000.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
11/3/00 $10,000.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
10/9/97 $1,000.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
10/9/97 $1,000.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
Christopher M. Connor Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, The
Sherwin-Williams Company
5/22/00 $1,000.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
3/30/00 $1,000.00 � DEWINE FOR US SENATE
Gale S. Fitzgerald (2, 6)
President and Chief Executive Officer , QP Group, Inc.
7/12/00 $500.00 � NEW YORK REPUBLICAN FEDERAL CAMPAIGN COMM.
10/12/98 $200.00 � FRIENDS OF JOHN LAFALCE
10/18/99 $1,000.00 � BUSH FOR PRESIDENT INC
Donald R. Gant (1,3,5) Senior Director, The Goldman Sachs Group, L.P.
L. Lindsey Halstead (2,3,6) Retired Chairman of the Board, Ford of Europe
12/22/98 $500.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
1/23/97 $500.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
5/27/97 $200.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
10/31/97 $500.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
12/28/99 $500.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
3/7/01 $300.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE
6/12/01 $200.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE
11/27/01 $200.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE
1/24/02 $500.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE
Phillip B. Lassiter (1,3,6) Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive
Officer, Ambac Financial Group, Inc.
4/16/98 $250.00 � NAT'L REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMM.
9/21/98 $250.00 � NAT'L REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMM.
John N. Lauer (1,4,5) Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer,
Oglebay Norton Co.
10/10/00 $1,000.00 � DEWINE FOR US SENATE
8/23/00 $250.00 � REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE - RNC
3/17/97 $1,000.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
Walden W. O'Dell Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive
Officer, Diebold
2/14/01 $2,015.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
12/17/97 $1,000.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
1/30/01 $3,950.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
8/16/01 $500.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
12/17/97 $1,000.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
6/30/00 $1,000.00 � DEWINE FOR US SENATE
Eric J. RoordaFormer Chairman, Procomp Amazonia Industria Eletronica, S.A.
W.R. Timken Jr. (2,3,4) Chairman , The Timken Company
6/23/00 $50,000.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
6/8/01 $100,000.00 � 2001 PRESIDENT'S DINNER - NON-FEDERAL TRUST
3/14/01 $10,000.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
8/19/99 $15,000.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
11/3/00 $15,000.00 � RNC REPUBLICAN NAT'L STATE ELECTIONS COMM.
2/22/02 $1,000.00 � RELY ON YOUR BELIEFS FUND
6/12/02 $1,000.00 � OHIO'S REPUBLICAN SALUTE
Corporate Officers
Walden W. O'DellChairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive
Officer, Diebold
Wesley B. Vance Chief Operating Officer
8/16/01 $500.00 � VOINOVICH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE
Michael J. HillockPresident, Diebold International
11/18/97 $500.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
David Bucci Senior Vice President, Customer Solutions Group
11/18/97 $500.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
James L.M. Chen Vice President and Managing Director, Asia-Pacific
Warren W. Dettinger Vice President, General Counsel and Assistant
Secretary
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
1/30/97 $250.00 � DEWINE FOR U S SENATE (2000)
Donald E. Eagon, Jr. Vice President, Global Communications & Investor
Relations
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
Charee Francis-Vogelsang Vice President and Secretary
Larry D. Ingram Vice President, Procurement and Services
1/30/97 $250.00 � DEWINE FOR U S SENATE (2000)
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
Dennis M. Moriarty Vice President, Customer Business Solutions
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
Anthony J. Rusciano Vice President, National Accounts
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
Charles B. Scheurer Vice President, Corporate Human Resources
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998
Ernesto R. Unanue Vice President and Managing Director, Latin America
Robert J. Warren Vice President and Treasurer
11/18/97 $300.00 � FAIRCLOTH FOR SENATE COMMITTEE 1998

[ButchHowdy]

Amazing Curtis, Thank you!

Well, maybe the Hildebeast should be up in arms about this as well. I understand the folks that want to focus on the straight and narrow but unless this issue is brought to the forefront, our (my) time, efforts and donations to help Ron Paul become the President are in vain.

We may not be able to rid ourselves of these electronic nightmares but we can shout from the treetops demanding:

TRANSPARENCY TRANSPARENCY TRANSPARENCY!!

[DeadheadForPaul]

This is exactly the kind of press we dont need and makes us look like a bunch of loons. Furthermore, it will do little to no good besides pissing off Republicans we need to win the nomination

if anything, Mitt Romney should be calling shenanigans on his vote total which was like 30% of the TICKETS HE BOUGHT. We got a few hundred more votes than the ones we bought. STOP MAKING US LOOK LIKE SORE LOSERS

The fact is that the re-count efforts have already been linked to Paul because of supporters who cannot keep their own agendas separate from the campaign. I agree that the Diebold machines are flawed but do it on your OWN time - not as a representative of Dr. Paul's support base

[WannaBfree]

Campaign spokesman Jesse Benton yesterday (Aug 15th) on the Alex Jones show:

"The scary thing, Alex, these Diebold machines, we really really need to examine these things over the long haul, because you're right, the transparency, the integrity of the voting process is bigger than Ron Paul, bigger than this election, it is just a huge issue."

Campaign spokesman Benton also said yesterday that other candidate's campaigns were even more concerned about this issue. This is not a Ron Paul/sore loser issue. See Benton quote above.

[jblosser]

This is exactly the kind of press we dont need and makes us look like a bunch of loons. Furthermore, it will do little to no good besides pissing off Republicans we need to win the nomination

if anything, Mitt Romney should be calling shenanigans on his vote total which was like 30% of the TICKETS HE BOUGHT. We got a few hundred more votes than the ones we bought. STOP MAKING US LOOK LIKE SORE LOSERS

The fact is that the re-count efforts have already been linked to Paul because of supporters who cannot keep their own agendas separate from the campaign. I agree that the Diebold machines are flawed but do it on your OWN time - not as a representative of Dr. Paul's support base

Deadhead, I respect what you're saying, but keep in mind there are different threads going on here. The exit poll/GOP phone spam backlash is not the same thing as the legal approach via the courts. The former was a horrible idea that needs to be abandoned, the other has been going on for years with good results and *needs to continue*, just like efforts to get rid of the Fed and IRS need to continue.

I have been present when Avi Rubin of Johns Hopkins presented some of his research into these machines, and am well aware they provide unprecedented threats to our democratic process. To that end I fully support efforts by Rubin, Harris, and others to educate the public on this problem and compel the electoral industry to use only verifiable voting methods, via the courts if necessary. I think there is no time like the present to do this, and I do support the lawsuit efforts in Iowa and elsewhere to compel open voting processes, independent of any particular election results. Whether there is a conspiracy or not is irrelevant, just like whether there is a Fed conspiracy or not is irrelevant: both closed voting and the Fed have to go, just because of the potential for corruption they provide. They have no place in a Constitutional American system.

However, I think the private exit poll effort proved useless and counterproductive. It didn't accomplish "public education" because of the public backlash against its supporters, and it didn't do anything to compel open voting because it wasn't binding and the conclusions being drawn from it are fallacious. It is not a tactic worth continuing. Similarly, calling a state GOP and demanding something is useless to get them to do anything and only sets them against cooperating with whatever campaign they think you are with. This reform needs to go directly to the public and the courts instead, again, independent of any particular election or candidate.

[james1844]

This lawsuit is a total waste of time. People will associated the organization that is organizing the suit with Ron Paul. Thats not the kind of publicity our candidate needs.

Best,

James H.

[rg123]

If the GOP & DNC and especially the MSM can go on tv and talk about how crooked
the elections are in Venezuela because of electronic voting machines. Then why are we putting Chavez down for rigged elections. When we here in America are
using the very same machines. Every major news organazation in the country has said that they are fraudulent. If the powers that be were not cheating then they would not use them. A sample can be found with a google venezuela electronic voting. What would make anyone think that America is any different Because we are the good guys and their the bad guys is ridiculous voter fraud is an AMERICAN ISSUE not a candidate issue. I as a daily reader of givemeliberty.org who is really we the people foundation can attest they have been fighting this long before Ron declared. But for anyone interested in congressional actions google congress and electronic voting. This also belongs in General Politics not the main forum IMO

[Ninja Homer]

For the record, I think all these vote fraud threads should be moved out of the "Ron Paul News & Discussion" area.

But since they keep coming up, I'm going to get some thoughts off my chest:

First, The Facts.
Tickets from Adopt An Iowan - 643, but there were 200 to 300 left over that were not used.
Tickets from the official campaign - 800, but there were 100 to 150 left over that were not used.
Number of ron paul votes - 1305.
Number of total votes - 14302.

Second, The Calculations.
Total tickets for Ron Paul that were used- 993 to 1143.
Total votes for Ron Paul from people who didn't get a ticket from Ron Paul or Adopt An Iowan - 162 to 312.
Total votes that didn't come from the campaign or Adopt An Iowan- 13309 to 13159.

Third, The Results.
Only 162-312 people voted for Ron Paul out of 13309-13159 who either purchased tickets out of their own pocket or got a ticket from another candidate.
To me, that sounds fishy, especially considering:

Ron Paul supporters were encouraged to purchase tickets on their own in order to save free tickets to get new Ron Paul supporters to the straw poll.
There have been reports of Ron Paul supporters who DID take tickets from other candidates and voted for Ron Paul. There were even articles written specifically about Ron Paul supporters who were planning to do it.

While there could have been some people who took tickets from Ron Paul or Adopt An Iowan and voted for some other candidate, that number would be really low.

Fourth, How It Could Have Been Done.
While Romney surely came in first, many are surprised at Tancredo's position.
There are reports of Ron Paul being in the last position on some ballots, and third from the last in others.
If Ron Paul and Tancredo's positions were switched on some of the ballots, it would split the votes between them according to the percentage of ballots that have the positions switched.
The combined number of votes for Ron Paul and Tancredo is 3266 (Ron Paul had 1305 and Tancredo had 1961).
If Tancredo actually got 600 votes, then Ron Paul would have had 2666 votes, which would have put Ron Paul in 2nd place, and Tancredo in 7th place behind Tommy Thompson.
There has been conjecture that the ballots are printed with the candidates in a random order, and then there's a bar code of sorts on the ballot somewhere that tells the electric counter what positions the candidates are in on that particular ballot. I haven't seen any proof of this yet. Even if this is how it works, they could still be printed up with candidate's positions switched around. In fact, it would be even easier to switch candidate's positions around this way, because people wouldn't even question it.

Fifth, The Conclusion.
Except for the Facts and Calculations above, this is complete speculation. I just wanted to give an example of what could have happened, and how easily an election can be thrown just by printing some of the ballots differently. The only way of knowing for sure the real results of the straw poll would be with a manual recount of the original ballots. While most people are happy with how Ron Paul did in the Iowa straw poll (including me, btw), it would be a whole different ball game if Ron Paul came in 2nd. Surely you can see that the effort to get a manual recount is a good cause, and having a manual paper ballot count to begin with is an absolute necessity.

To prevent this method of vote fraud (by printing some of the ballots with the positions switched), as many people as possible just need to take photos of their ballots. Then there would be definite proof of vote fraud.

[ChicagoLawyer]

The lawsuit over the straw poll is a complete waste of time and is a dead-certain loser. The plaintiffs, as of earlier this week weren't even represented by a lawyer, something that tells me that either (a) they don't believe enough in their cause to hire one, or (b) can't find one, either for pay or pro bono, who will sign their name to the lawsuit because they are afraid they would be found in contempt of court for filing a frivolous lawsuit. I frankly would not sign my name to this suit even if I was paid top dollar. It has "plaintiffs pay defendant's fees and costs" and "attorneys subject to sanctions" written all over it.

What I'm more worried about than this suit over the straw poll is if lawsuits come January and February in every caucus and primary. If it's not Diebold then it'll be something else. I'm afraid the voter fraud crowd are going to find something that's unfair in every state and sue over and over again. These people, as Jim Condit has, will hitch their wagon to Ron Paul whether Ron Paul likes it or not. Other candidates will hate Ron Paul, not for his policy views, but because his followers cost them and the GOP thousands of dollars in attorneys fees.

I hope this doesn't happen, but it easily could.

[ButchHowdy]

536 Floridian votes in 2000 caused the mess we're in today.

Bob Schultz of WE THE PEOPLE is not some lunatic fringe kid who has nothing to do. His efforts challenging the IRS Beast led to winning one of the most significant cases of our day:

Schulz v. IRS, Case No. 04-0196-cv - January 25, 2005, where it was ruled that:

"Taxpayers cannot be compelled by the IRS to turn over personal and private property to the IRS, absent a federal court order"

"...absent an effort to seek enforcement through a federal court, IRS summonses apply no force to taxpayers, and no consequence whatever can befall a taxpayer who refuses, ignores, or otherwise does not comply with an IRS summons until that summons is backed by a federal court order…[a taxpayer] cannot be held in contempt, arrested, detained, or otherwise punished for refusing to comply with the original IRS summons, no matter the taxpayer's reasons, or lack of reasons for so refusing." U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit - Schulz v. IRS, Case No. 04-0196-cv - January 25, 2005

Please do not poo poo the efforts of someone that is on our side. This battle has many fronts.

[JasonD]

In case you didn't see what I consider a more legitimate effort to do something about the voting process...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=12304


I thought we had a poll on this voting fraud issue and the result was the majority of people said we should drop it. Why is it still here???? And based on other threads looks like this topic also dominated the conference call.

Maybe we should start a new forum ronpaul_supporters_who_believe_in_an_international _conspiracy_to_deprive_ron_paul_of_votes_forum.

Then the vast majority of us can focus on getting his message out as it does no good to verify the votes if insufficient people show up to vote for him.

[WannaBfree]

For the record, I think all these vote fraud threads should be moved out of the "Ron Paul News & Discussion" area.

But since they keep coming up, I'm going to get some thoughts off my chest:

First, The Facts.
Tickets from Adopt An Iowan - 643, but there were 200 to 300 left over that were not used.
Tickets from the official campaign - 800, but there were 100 to 150 left over that were not used.
Number of ron paul votes - 1305.
Number of total votes - 14302.

Second, The Calculations.
Total tickets for Ron Paul that were used- 993 to 1143.
Total votes for Ron Paul from people who didn't get a ticket from Ron Paul or Adopt An Iowan - 162 to 312.
Total votes that didn't come from the campaign or Adopt An Iowan- 13309 to 13159.

Third, The Results.
Only 162-312 people voted for Ron Paul out of 13309-13159 who either purchased tickets out of their own pocket or got a ticket from another candidate.
To me, that sounds fishy, especially considering:

Ron Paul supporters were encouraged to purchase tickets on their own in order to save free tickets to get new Ron Paul supporters to the straw poll.
There have been reports of Ron Paul supporters who DID take tickets from other candidates and voted for Ron Paul. There were even articles written specifically about Ron Paul supporters who were planning to do it.

While there could have been some people who took tickets from Ron Paul or Adopt An Iowan and voted for some other candidate, that number would be really low.

Fourth, How It Could Have Been Done.
While Romney surely came in first, many are surprised at Tancredo's position.
There are reports of Ron Paul being in the last position on some ballots, and third from the last in others.
If Ron Paul and Tancredo's positions were switched on some of the ballots, it would split the votes between them according to the percentage of ballots that have the positions switched.
The combined number of votes for Ron Paul and Tancredo is 3266 (Ron Paul had 1305 and Tancredo had 1961).
If Tancredo actually got 600 votes, then Ron Paul would have had 2666 votes, which would have put Ron Paul in 2nd place, and Tancredo in 7th place behind Tommy Thompson.
There has been conjecture that the ballots are printed with the candidates in a random order, and then there's a bar code of sorts on the ballot somewhere that tells the electric counter what positions the candidates are in on that particular ballot. I haven't seen any proof of this yet. Even if this is how it works, they could still be printed up with candidate's positions switched around. In fact, it would be even easier to switch candidate's positions around this way, because people wouldn't even question it.

Fifth, The Conclusion.
Except for the Facts and Calculations above, this is complete speculation. I just wanted to give an example of what could have happened, and how easily an election can be thrown just by printing some of the ballots differently. The only way of knowing for sure the real results of the straw poll would be with a manual recount of the original ballots. While most people are happy with how Ron Paul did in the Iowa straw poll (including me, btw), it would be a whole different ball game if Ron Paul came in 2nd. Surely you can see that the effort to get a manual recount is a good cause, and having a manual paper ballot count to begin with is an absolute necessity.

To prevent this method of vote fraud (by printing some of the ballots with the positions switched), as many people as possible just need to take photos of their ballots. Then there would be definite proof of vote fraud.

great to see all the facts in one place - good work!

[TheEvilDetector]

The lawsuit over the straw poll is a complete waste of time and is a dead-certain loser. The plaintiffs, as of earlier this week weren't even represented by a lawyer, something that tells me that either (a) they don't believe enough in their cause to hire one, or (b) can't find one, either for pay or pro bono, who will sign their name to the lawsuit because they are afraid they would be found in contempt of court for filing a frivolous lawsuit. I frankly would not sign my name to this suit even if I was paid top dollar. It has "plaintiffs pay defendant's fees and costs" and "attorneys subject to sanctions" written all over it.

What I'm more worried about than this suit over the straw poll is if lawsuits come January and February in every caucus and primary. If it's not Diebold then it'll be something else. I'm afraid the voter fraud crowd are going to find something that's unfair in every state and sue over and over again. These people, as Jim Condit has, will hitch their wagon to Ron Paul whether Ron Paul likes it or not. Other candidates will hate Ron Paul, not for his policy views, but because his followers cost them and the GOP thousands of dollars in attorneys fees.

I hope this doesn't happen, but it easily could.

OMG enough of the pretenses and the courtly word games. The assholes who rob the people of the land of their democratic rights should just come out with it and put a god damn disclaimer on every ticket:

"No assurance of vote total accuracy is given, results may represent private wishes of the counters and/or organising party. Belief in the accuracy of these results comes at your own risk."

If the court won't rule on a methodology change, it should rule to enforce a printing of a disclaimer on every ticket, because as it stands currently, people have an unfounded belief in accuracy of the vote count and this belief needs to change.

[WannaBfree]

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/diebold2_dees.jpg

[Man from La Mancha]

Sue them every time theres any vote, monitor every vote, raise a stink every time, get a ton of PR. Lawyer types can start helping to get this through a court, don't need complaining need some creative thought. As stated earlier a paid or free vote is a contract that has to have transparency. Duh. This is a very much a Ron Paul discussion. Unless transparent NO PAUL 2008. Another Duh. I for one will donate to anybody that is raising opposition to this continuous fraud by highly apathetic touchy freely don't want to hurt anybody feelings attitude. The one thing is the sky is the limit to donate to these groups. You can't take it with you when you die but you can make this country freer before you go. As long as this is independent action from main HQ so what.

check out this guy doesn't lose in court and no attorney, might not have anything to do with this post but I thought of him.

http://www.adventuresinlegalland.com/index.php?/content/view/57/27/

.

[MJ777]

This site is looking for affidavits from people who voted for Paul in the straw poll. While I see the point about sour grapes, if they can collect these affidavits it will be proof there was fraud or at least a mistake. I think that is worth quietly pursuing. If you voted in Iowa, please go to this link and send in your affidavit.
http://www.votefraud.org/ron_paul_stop_the_votefraud_page.htm
Thanks!