The Mormon Prophecy

[dalesvp]

I'm not Mormon though my ancestors were. So I'm not promoting a religion here. They have this prophecy that sounds a lot like our times. I did a little searching and found a bit more on their prophecy. It is all quite interesting. Could our movement use another 5 million members?

“Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (Joseph Smith papers LDS Church Historical Archives Box 1, March 10, 1844)

Discussion on the above quote:
http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=pscthread.htm

Discussion on the above quote:
http://theboard.byu.edu/index.php?area=viewall&id=33536

The Book of Mormon and the Constitution
http://www.inspiredconstitution.org/bofmc/index.html

Becoming The Staff Upon Which Nations Shall Lean
Glenn J. Kimber

In 1844, Joseph Smith prophesied the saving of America: “Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground. And when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from utter destruction.” President Benson talked about the youth that will be the basis for fulfilling this prophecy. Learn about these prophesies and how each of your young people can become literally “saviors on Mount Zion,” not only saving this country but literally saving the sacredness of our families.

Download the LDS Ron Paul flyer
http://www.svpvril.com/pdffiles/RP_LDS_Flyer.pdf

[mrsat_98]

Links are dead

[dalesvp]

Links are dead

Sorry about that. They are now fixed and tested.

[Doktor_Jeep]

Beware those wiley Mormons! What with all those family values and working togeth....


ah never mind.

[Ex Post Facto]

Out of all religions the Mormon bible is the most reasonable in my opinion. I've read it front to back. In the begining of it, it sets out that the book was written by a man, based on the interpretation of events he had foreseen, and that it was subject to error. That impressed me, as most religions attempt to sell everything written as truth. Now some of the rituals of the Mormon religion, are a bit too much for me and seems as though they were enforced to maintain control of their people, like a lot of religion's.

[ryanmkeisling]

Out of all religions the Mormon bible is the most reasonable in my opinion. I've read it front to back. In the begining of it, it sets out that the book was written by a man, based on the interpretation of events he had foreseen, and that it was subject to error. That impressed me, as most religions attempt to sell everything written as truth. Now some of the rituals of the Mormon religion, are a bit too much for me and seems as though they were enforced to maintain control of their people, like a lot of religion's.
I have also read the text but there are some real contradictions especially when you get into LDS, which is a perversion of the original faith. Also polygamy and its history within the faith, the fact that the dead cannot be made into believers (implying that you cannot convert your dead ancestors) so they are condemed to eternal hell, and the fact that any form of theism contradicts modern science and the principles which govern our modern society. I see a lot of religious threads and I fail to understand how any of these very smart people can continue to have piety for something that contradicts most of the things we really know to be true or the basis of truth in our reality. Why would something born of supposed insanity even be considered in the context of modern events? I cannot take anything born of modern religion as fact or anything but a happy fantasy....

[dalesvp]

...and the fact that any form of theism contradicts modern science and the principles which govern our modern society. I see a lot of religious threads and I fail to understand how any of these very smart people can continue to have piety for something that contradicts most of the things we really know to be true or the basis of truth in our reality. Why would something born of supposed insanity even be considered in the context of modern events? I cannot take anything born of modern religion as fact or anything but a happy fantasy....

I agree with you most belief held as dogma and doctrine is a form of insanity. This is especially true within or under so-called "organized" belief systems (most religions, sciences, politics, social rule sets, etc.) as a large portion of these were created within the egoic mind set which we now know to be fear-based and illusory. Having said all that should we peer beneath the clap-trap of egoic constructs of these belief systems there does exist a cosmology having a base in nature and hence so-called science - but not a sterile materialistic science that assumes humanity is little more than an accident and therefore a plague on it's own planet.

As I stated in my initial post I am not a Mormon or proponent of any form of dogma and doctrine whether religious or so-called scientific. I am a seeker of a Greater Truth or understanding of what makes the universe tick. Our unbiased research, promoting no agenda, has uncovered a broader perspective than most "scientists", "churchists" or bibleists" would care to tread into. You can see a glimpse of this here:

http://www.svpvril.com/Cosmology/cosunityTOC.html

That said, we (in the Ron Paul liberty movement) are uniting many previously divided and somewhat conquered segments of America into a focused whole in a new effort to secure our nation and future. Should we encounter differences among us let us not be diverted until we accomplish our goal. Later, we can discuss differences of opinion.

[LordBucket]

Could our movement use another 5 million members?


Yes.

Do you have any connections with the LDS church who could possibly be convinced that now is the time for the Mormon people to save the constitution of this country as their prophecy suggests?

[dalesvp]

Yes.

Do you have any connections with the LDS church who could possibly be convinced that now is the time for the Mormon people to save the constitution of this country as their prophecy suggests?

No, I do not. Not being a member of their organization I know very few individuals within. One would think the organization is a bit embarrassed after the Mit Romney business. Mit did not appear to me to be a supporter of the Constitution. By posting this message here and elsewhere perhaps some LDS people will pick up on this and maybe begin to spread the word. One of them did create the flyer linked to above that supports Ron Paul and the Constitution.

[Aratus]

the golden plates had sounded very real, and almost a proof positive of missionaries
finding the americas loosly from the time of saints peter & paul if not perhaps later on! if
the plates were closer in time to constantine's council of nicaea it appears that part of
this was a mystic vision. joseph smith clearly had a very direct view of reality. to me, part
of this sounds like a historic set of artifacts is at the core of the movement. the americas
have carvings and images reflective of asia and europe, if not africa, and many people
have found examples of a european language or script, that seems pre-columbian.

[Ex Post Facto]

It's true that one thing about the Mormon's the law of the nation is next to as important as their bible. I hate what organized religion has done to some people. I believe in GOD but I don't think it is limited to a specific entity that you can label. Mormon's understand that they should seek the truth and not believe any person, some believe and do that constatly, others let their preacher decide.

[Aratus]

joseph smith seems to have seen or discovered something, and then spends his life
trying to understand all this. for our nation's fate to be sensed by he, if not our choises now,
i would not be surprised if this is so. this is like portugal's fatima vision. americans two
hundred years from now will know many answers we don't. we are of our times...

[Crickett]

Yes.

Do you have any connections with the LDS church who could possibly be convinced that now is the time for the Mormon people to save the constitution of this country as their prophecy suggests?

Well, I hope these pep[;e will practice what the religion preaches because the Constitution is dying and we NEED THEIR HELP!! Someone should go to their churches and ask for their help, or write them and beg their "elders" or something!!!

[dalesvp]

Like Crickett I'm not at this moment too interested in discussing points of faith or whatever although much of that and its history is exceedingly interesting to me. For the current times I'm more focused on gathering together all those who are awakening and able to aide and assist in our quest to restore the Constitution and our Republic. Now seeing as how this prophecy is nearly a point of faith with the Mormons they ought to be keen to act on it. There can be little doubt as to the danger our Constitution and Republic is in right now. In fact, I think, we'll have to look very closely to see if there is any left of either.

It is perhaps a sad truth that no matter what one's religious beliefs are - there is a camp waiting for you too. So we must unite our efforts now together or perish separately.

[TurtleBurger]

I don't think one needs to be a prophet to realize that the American system of government is not incredibly stable, and it WILL collapse eventually.

[dalesvp]

I don't think one needs to be a prophet to realize that the American system of government is not incredibly stable, and it WILL collapse eventually.

Actually, what we see as our government is not actually our government. Our government (by and for the people, etc.) was hijacked about 100 years ago and a pseudo-government was put into its place. You can read the actual laws themselves:

http://www.lr-n-r.org/InstitutionalizedTyranny.html

So the prophecy *did* come true but there was no one around with enough awareness to have seen the trick being pulled. (Where's a prophet when you need one?) The last barrier to total conquest of our nation is the Constitution. And we have seen it shredded nearly every day since the Bush et al stole their way into more control over us. I think one would have to search diligently to discern any thread whatsoever that may be left of our law and Constitution.

[ryanmkeisling]

I agree with you most belief held as dogma and doctrine is a form of insanity. This is especially true within or under so-called "organized" belief systems (most religions, sciences, politics, social rule sets, etc.) as a large portion of these were created within the egoic mind set which we now know to be fear-based and illusory. Having said all that should we peer beneath the clap-trap of egoic constructs of these belief systems there does exist a cosmology having a base in nature and hence so-called science - but not a sterile materialistic science that assumes humanity is little more than an accident and therefore a plague on it's own planet.

As I stated in my initial post I am not a Mormon or proponent of any form of dogma and doctrine whether religious or so-called scientific. I am a seeker of a Greater Truth or understanding of what makes the universe tick. Our unbiased research, promoting no agenda, has uncovered a broader perspective than most "scientists", "churchists" or bibleists" would care to tread into. You can see a glimpse of this here:

http://www.svpvril.com/Cosmology/cosunityTOC.html

That said, we (in the Ron Paul liberty movement) are uniting many previously divided and somewhat conquered segments of America into a focused whole in a new effort to secure our nation and future. Should we encounter differences among us let us not be diverted until we accomplish our goal. Later, we can discuss differences of opinion.

What a great link! Thanks. and I must say I do agree there is more to it that a sterile scientific understanding. Science more and more is in line with Buddhist/Hindu cosmology, which was around for thousands of years before any of the modern theistic ideas came around. Some of the recent advances in Astrophysics especially are truly fascinating.

[dalesvp]

America's Rights And Freedoms Hanging By A Thread
By Bernadine Smith
Second Amendment Committee
3-6-8
*
This email refers two issues:* The first issue is about the devastating nature of the national ID card, also called the Real ID card.*

We are hanging on a thread here in California. The whole nation is hanging on a thread. Your guns are hanging on a thread. Your First Amendment free speech rights are hanging on a thread. The Constitution and the whole Bill of Rights is hanging on a thread. The lives of your children are hanging on a thread. All because of the federal power that will be gained over the people if the Real ID Card is not stopped.*

As it is now only 4 states have opposed the enactment of the ID card. They are Montana, South Carolina, and possibly New Hampshire. We have been told that with the exception of California, all of the other states have agreed to participate in the federal ID card. The people have not been told how bad this innocent sounding ID card is going to impact upon the lives of the decent law-abiding American people.* By national acceptance of the ID card, all the people of this country are placed under the command and control of the Homeland Security Agency.*

A full military government is on standby under the Homeland Security Agency. The Homeland Security was built for operation of a full-militarized system. This will permanently destroy your Constitution and your Bill of Rights.

the rest of the story
http://www.rense.com/general81/thread.htm

[LDS4RonPaul]

Hey there, Folks... I am a Latter-day Saint supporter of Ron Paul. There are many LDS Ron Paul supporters, and we are banding together to do what we can to spread the word. I started a blog last year and have added several other LDS Ron Paul supporters as authors there: http://lds4ronpaul.blogspot.com. We have a facebook group as well. And a new facebook group has started for the purpose of carrying on the Revolution beyond the presidential campaign called "LDS for America."

I won't take the time to address some inaccuracies in this thread regarding our religion. As others have said, now is not the time to debate points of doctrine. Instead, let's lay aside our differences and focus on working together to preserve and defend our Constitution and the honor of this nation.

You asked, does the Ron Paul Revolution want 5 million new recruits... actually, there are more than 13 million members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the world. More than half of the members of the church live outside of the U.S., but it is part of our belief that the Constitution is a standard of liberty for ALL people. One of our books of scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants, states, "And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind" (see here (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/98/5-6#5)). So we could potentially have far more than 5 million to add to our numbers, IF we can wake up members of my faith and motivate them to come to the defense of liberty. I am hopeful, especially considering Joseph Smith's prophecy. :)

[dalesvp]

Lani,

I'm breathless there are 13 million possible supporters. We can do this.

[dalesvp]

As we make more contacts with LDS people let us not forget there are other religious groups under siege who need our help. Check this out. The gentle and innocent among us are being beaten down. If one group is being oppressed now sooner or later we will all be oppressed. It appears as though it is time for us all to unite in a single purpose - liberty for all.

It doesn't matter if Ron Paul can win the White House or not. What does matter is that we don't give up the fight against tyranny. The global elite have manipulated our lives for a century. Their schemes to destroy our currency, eliminate civil liberties, enslave us and our children, and spill our blood in the process are all clear and present dangers which must be resisted to our last ounce of strength. We must resist, or we must inevitably perish.

For my Amish friends, for my family, and for*my country*I commit myself to the noble cause of freedom. Now is not the time to vacillate or shrink from duty. Now is the time to rise and fight.

http://www.nolanchart.com/article3125.html

[dalesvp]

I continue to make contact with Mormons locally and through others across Colorado. We are making progress - 13 million contacts to go.

Download the LDS Ron Paul flyer
http://www.svpvril.com/pdffiles/RP_LDS_Flyer.pdf

Any time you don't feel motivated to turn this nightmare around just read this:

http://svpvril.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1221

[dalesvp]

I encountered some materials by Cleo Skousen who we know to be Mormon. Skousen epitomizes the Spiritually developed man. He is amazing and an inspiration. Which brings me to a new idea.

It is my suspicion Cleo Skousen might be one of the Mormons spoken of in the prophecy.

http://www.ldslastdays.com/default.aspx?page=pscthread.htm

He has done more in a high spiritual and down to earth practical way to restore our Constitution than anyone else known (to me anyway). Do you have any additional information or insight that might bear on this idea? Would you agree this is a possibility?

See National Center for Constitutional Studies

http://www.nccs.net/

[ARealConservative]

I now of one Mormon that posts here on occasion:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=130052&postcount=17

[dalesvp]

I found these fascinating videos on YouTube. There are more like these. It appears the Mormons are waking up and standing up. A new tsunami is rising up...

Study the LDS view of the Constitution to vote for Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cESC0RaVnM

Understanding the war conflict w/ LDS view vote Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za0CGpar09o

Ron Paul preserves, protects, defends LDS Constitution view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eia3NcSv7S8

LDS Should Support Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3woFeSeSyk

Ezra Taft Benson and Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syDAa-doSLo

Joel Skousen - Ron Paul vs Corporate Media
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbYxtA5PBXU

[dalesvp]

400 Mormon children kidnapped because of their Mormon parent's beliefs.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/46478

Maybe now the Mormons will realize our Constitution is now hanging by a thread (if at all) and they will wake up and actually do something about their faith.

[dalesvp]

Welcome to Captive FLDS Children

This site was created by the FLDS people to help the innocent children that were living at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas.

The Child Protection Services of the State of Texas has taken every child and now has them in State custody. This site will keep you informed of the latest information and events in relation to the innocent children being returned to their parents.

http://www.captivefldschildren.org/

[scipio337]

Yeah, and Jesus is coming back to Independence, MO. My guess is he'll be driving a late model Camaro, and will be sporting a mullet and Oakleys.

There's some massive global conspiracy to stamp out the religous freedom of polygamy, child brides, forced marriages and incest?

Put down the kool aid, and step away from the cooler.

[INforRP]

What the govt did to those families in TX is appalling, to say the least. They went in there on a bogus phone call, from a 3rd party source (that turned out to be a 33 year old woman from CO) and now 400+ children are being separated from their families.

I obviously don't know all of went on there. But the testimony that was given, shows that instead of there being multiple 13 year old pregnant girls, turned out to be "5 girls under 18" that were pregnant (out of 416 children removed). Not that different from many typical communities in the U.S. I would guess.

Hopefully the silver lining here is this will mobilize a large percent of the Mormon community, who should be outraged at this display of governmental abuse.

Another blog for some details: http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/

[dalesvp]

There is a huge outpouring concerning this gestapo action at dailypaul.com http://www.dailypaul.com/node/46586

[dalesvp]

Read the Time Line:
On April 23rd, 2008 lynnopoly says:
Here's some snippets:
Continued raiding at Ranch.
Ongoing searches and seizures. More families being taken from the Ranch.
April 5, 2008 8:30:00 PM EDT
Continued searching and plundering at the Ran
Anniversary of our Savior's birth. Government officials searching all day. Taking families all day. Plundering all day. By nightfall all mothers and children gone, lonely and heartsick.

April 6, 2008 12:00:00 AM EDT
A sick baby treated while at the Pavilion.
A baby girl with a fever is given a syringe filled with medicine. Afterwards the baby screams for several hours. The mother says, "Something was in that syringe." She walks to the medical unit (an RV at the back of the building}, wondering what they had given her. She is told they had been rinsing out the syringes with cold water.

April 6, 2008 8:00:00 AM EDT
Events at Fort Concho, phones confiscated.
Officer announces he is here to gather all our cell phones. When asked for an explanation he says it was for safety and security reasons.

April 6, 2008 8:00:00 PM EDT
'New' FBI search warrant.
FBI come with a 'new' search warrant for all financial records. Confiscating computers and files, etc. Everyone under 'house' arrest -- no walking away from homes permitted. Every home violated again as the FBI go through everything. Records gathered and taken.

April 8, 2008 8:00:00 AM EDT
Heart-broken three-year-old..
A three-year-old girl cries aloud, long and hard for approximately one and a half hours until she is hoarse and falls asleep. She keeps crying out her mother's name. Her mother was gone to an out-of-state appointment when the raid happened, and has been trying to get into the shelters where her children are, but has not been able to yet. 11:00 pm The little three-year-old is coughing hard and wheezing badly. CPS is notified and they have decided to send her to the hospital on an ambulance.

April 9, 2008 9:00:00 PM EDT
Mother and baby taken in the night.
CPS workers enter shelter #1 with flashlights. They walk through the rows of cots, waking several sleeping children and adults. The workers explain that they are looking for a certain lady. This lady, age 19, has been accused of lying about her age. She has a little baby. They find her and wake her up, saying, "You need to come with us for some questioning." By this time an older mother wakes up and comes over where they are. This experienced mother asks if the questioning can wait until morning. The CPS workers firmly answer, "No! We need to do it right now." The older mother offers to watch the baby while the baby's mother is gone. The CPS workers refuse to let her and keep saying, "Come on. Get your shoes on quick. We need to go. You will be back in just a little while." The mother of the baby whispers to the other mother, "They won't let me come back if they take me." Just then another experienced mother walks up and tries to convince the CPS workers that it is too late, and wonders if they can do it in the morning. The workers will not listen, and they usher the young mother with her baby out the door. About a half hour later the CPS workers come back and haul the baby crib the baby had been sleeping in, out. The young mother never comes back to this shelter. First thing in the morning a CPS worker comes and gathers some of the baby's clothes. Late in the afternoon some mothers and children are outside waving to loved ones in other shelters and they see the young mother with her baby far across the parade grounds, just her and her baby. She is standing by a little cabin and waving. Her dress and jacket are recognized.

April 12, 2008 11:30:00 PM EDT
Mothers and children seperated.
CPS bus supervisors, having taken lists of names, call the mothers names and the number of children going with them, and escort them off the bus. Mothers who have children under the age of five are allowed to take all their children and get off the bus at the Coliseum. No caretakers are allowed to go along with the mothers to help. Mothers who do not have children under the age of five, but children five and older, stay on the bus and are driven a short distance to the Pavilion. All caretakers are also told to stay on the bus and get off at the Pavilion. Inside the Pavilion there are many CPS workers, male and female. Workers call the group of mothers and children to order, then a spokeswoman reads the names of mothers, caretakers, and number of children who go with each one again. Mothers and caretakers are told to walk a short distance away from the children. Some children try to follow their mothers and caretakers, but are stopped by CPS workers. Any mothers who object are escorted by CPS workers. Once the group is sorted, the CPS worker in charge tells the mothers and caretakers to step into the next room where, "...we will give you some information." Some children start to cry and hold on to their mothers. CPS workers take hold of children and say, "We will watch you. Your mom is just going to step into the other room. We will watch you until she gets back." Mothers reluctantly walk into the next room where the entire wall is lined with policemen, firearms handy. The mothers and caretakers are called to order as the spokeswomen reads the "information". The mothers and caretakers are told that the state has custody of their children. The adults are given two choices: to go back to the Ranch, or to go to the Family Alliance Shelter. There is not a choice to stay with the children. One caretaker asked what the shelter was, and if it would mean they could be closer to the children. A CPS worker explained that a person could go to the Family Alliance Shelter if they were afraid of anything happening to them at the Ranch. The majority of mothers and caretakers chose to go by bus to the Ranch.

April 14, 2008 2:35:00 PM EDT
No Search Warrant Video:http://www.captivefldschildren.org/ViewVideo.php?VID=3

More here
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/46705

[dalesvp]

New website!
http://www.captivefldschildren.org
and contact info to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/46592

[Fyretrohl]

First, as I have said before, I am a Latter Day Saint and a Ron Paul Supporter.

Couple of issues:

1 - The FLDS church is NOT the 'Mormon' church anymore than the Episcopal Church is the Catholic Church. Avoiding the Doctrinal differences and arguments of who is right, the two churchs split paths long ago.

2 - There are a LARGE number of LDS supporters of Ron Paul. Many other groups I am part of that are heavily LDS believe strongly in Ron Paul.

3 - Yes, for most LDS, the Constitution is a God Inspired document. As such, it is nearly scripture. If you want REALLY good information to discuss with members, look up the writings of former Secretary of Agriculture and President of the church Ezra Taft Benson. Especially...The Proper Role of Government.

HOWEVER, you will not convert all LDS. First, there are LDS democrats. Harry Reid is LDS. There are LDS warhawks. There are people like Mitt Romney. And, like with any group, you have those who just vote the status quo.

[dalesvp]

Thanks Fyretrohl, you make some good points.

The faith of those children's parents should not be an issue. They are children and they are being jack-booted into oblivion.

What kind of Christian (Mormon or otherwise) can stand idle and watch that happen?

[Fyretrohl]

Thanks Fyretrohl, you make some good points.

The faith of those children's parents should not be an issue. They are children and they are being jack-booted into oblivion.

What kind of Christian (Mormon or otherwise) can stand idle and watch that happen?

Those who have come to fear a monolithic government that rules by terrorism. It was how Hitler got as far as he did. It was how King George ruled.

[dalesvp]

Those who have come to fear a monolithic government that rules by terrorism. It was how Hitler got as far as he did. It was how King George ruled.

Fear, yes. But is it not more the lack of faith? When we have faith and Love there can be no fear. Perhaps as a nation we have lost our way and the path of lost faith has brought us to these sad days of little hope and less strength. The inner strength comes from faith allowing men to stand tall before any lesser forces of evil. Perhaps now the nation is beginning to search within and remember that righteous strength. America is awakening if only it is not too late....

[dalesvp]

@@@DIGG THIS >>>HOW TEXAS IS STEALING AND MURDERING INNOCENT CHILDREN!!!
Posted May 1st, 2008 by Jdayh

Polygamous sect's kids in hospital, moms want answers!!!!!

IF YOU LOVE AMERICA --BELIEVE IN LIBERTY AND FREEDOM..
THEN
READ ALL ABOUT IT AT THE BOTTOM LINKS.....

---they are unlawfully taking the children at birth from the mothers
---they have lost at least 2 children
-- 9 (at least) are hospitalized
-- they are not letting the mothers breast feed their children
--they are now taking the children being born away from the mother at birth
---they are totally violating the constitutional rights of the parents as well as the children
--this is all due to a prank phone call, that the caller has now been arrested...in other words no evidence of any crime
---and the list goes on.....read at links below or website for more details...www.captivefldschildren.org/
---worse...if they can do this to them they will/can do it to you and your children

BOTTOM LINE IS THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA IS HYPING/LYING THE KEY POINTS TO THIS STORY...WE MUST LET THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD AND ACROSS THIS COUNTRY KNOW THE TRUTH.....SEE THIS WEBSITE FOR COMPLETE STORY>>

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/47581

[Fyretrohl]

Yes, I have faith that Heavenly Father could deliver those who he will. My issue comes from, neither side being in the right. So, what do I stand up for.

[dalesvp]

You are the one to say what is right and wrong?

Children count on responsible adults for protection and service. These children have been kidnapped and their families destroyed for no legitimate or legal reason. Is that the kind of society we want for ourselves?

A comprehensive compilation of news videos and articles about this gestapo nightmare:

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/47781

[Fyretrohl]

You are the one to say what is right and wrong?

Children count on responsible adults for protection and service. These children have been kidnapped and their families destroyed for no legitimate or legal reason. Is that the kind of society we want for ourselves?

A comprehensive compilation of news videos and articles about this gestapo nightmare:

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/47781

Well, what right does a parent have to force or ALLOW their child to be sexually abused by another adult when the child is at an age that does not allow reasonable or rational decision making capabilities? Does that child not deserve to be protected from those who threaten them, since the children are incapable of protecting themselves. The reaction may be overboard, but, some of the children were abused and others were potentially at risk. This is a 'Reap what you Sow' situation. Evil doing in Evil. I am NOT defening the CPS. As I said, both sides are evil and reprehensible in this. I am not sure HOW you protect the children when you can't determine which adults are and are not a threat. I guess removing the men would have helped, allowing them time to investigate all the claims and find better answers.

[dalesvp]

We investigated actual crimes - not imagined fears or "what ifs".....

[dalesvp]

Where are the Americans?
Where are the Christians?

READ ALL ABOUT IT AT THE BOTTOM LINKS.....

--- they are forcefully vaccinating these children against the will of the parents....
---they are unlawfully taking the children at birth from the mothers
---they have lost at least 2 children
-- 9 (at least) are hospitalized
-- they are not letting the mothers breast feed their children
--they are now taking the children being born away from the mother at birth
---they are totally violating the constitutional rights of the parents as well as the children
--this is all due to a prank phone call, that the caller has now been arrested...in other words no evidence of any crime
---and the list goes on.....read at links below or website for more details...www.captivefldschildren.org/
---worse...if they can do this to them they will/can do it to you and your children

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/47581

[dalesvp]

Appeals court rules Texas acted improperly in seizing FLDS children

The Associated Press and The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated:*05/22/2008 11:59:59 AM MDT

SAN ANGELO, Texas -- A state appellate court has ruled that child welfare officials had no right to seize more than 400 children living at a polygamist sect's ranch.

*** The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the grounds for removing the children were "legally and factually insufficient" under Texas law.

*** Child welfare officials removed the children on the grounds that the sect pushed underage girls into marriage and sex and trained boys to be grown-up predators.

*** The appellate court ruled the chaotic hearing held last month did not demonstrate the children were in any immediate danger, the only measure of taking children from their homes without court proceedings.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9347022

[Fyretrohl]

Hurray for the court on getting it partially correct. Too bad they did not order the kids returned.

[dalesvp]

COURT OF APPEALS DELIVERS STINGING REBUKE TO TEXAS CPS
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/fraud/state/news.php?q=1211857750

The State of Texas thought they were on a roll. As the Dallas Morning News reported, "Texas, calling a polygamist sect an abusive environment, is poised to tell its mothers they will lose their children [forever] unless they distance themselves from portions of their religion. Some lawyers believe this could mean women would never be able to return to the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, and would have to choose between some of their beliefs and their children." The Texas legislature is even demanding that the FLDS church pay the $30-50M price tag for this trumped up raid which illegally took away all their children. However, all of this arrogant intervention was stopped in its tracks as the Texas Court of Appeals finally intervened with a scathing indictment of the judge who authorized this travesty of justice without a shred of credible evidence.
*
In a dramatic ruling, the Court of Appeals ruled in favor of all 48 mothers of the FLDS religion and declared that Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) violated Texas law in their mass roundup of 468 children from the polygamous YFZ ranch. The court correctly zeroed in on the two major violations committed by these over-zealous "child protectors" --treating the entire community as one household, and failing to provide any specific evidence of individual abuse in the mass custody hearing in which all the children were ruled "at risk."
*
This is a major victory for the rights of parents everywhere to be free from the arbitrary edicts of government bureaucrats claiming the right to "save the children." No matter how much government may disapprove of a family's beliefs or their marriage arrangements, child protective services must have evidence of specific abuse by the parents in order to justify the removal of the children by the state. It is simply unacceptable in law to say that mere membership in a church, or political party, or adherence to a belief in polygamy disqualifies parents from keeping their children. Even when specific evidence of abuse is found within a portion of a community of belief, it is improper to indict all members of that group as a party to the crime without specific evidence on each person. Only the individuals involved can be prosecuted.
*
The trial court (which issued the search warrant against the ranch based on bogus information) now has 10 days in which to comply with this writ of mandamus. The state may appeal to the state Supreme Court, but the law is quite clear on this matter, so the chances of getting this overturned are slim--unless the Supreme Court is inclined to simply disregard the law as did the original judge (Barbara Walther).
*
There is also another great evil involved in the artificial barriers placed upon parents trying to get their children back. Instead of the burden of proof being upon the state to show that a parent or parents are a continuing and imminent threat to the child, CPS uses what they call "service plans" to set up criteria that parents must meet to "qualify" to have their children back. In other words, the children are held ransom to an externally applied set of criteria that often violate a person's right to religious or political freedom of thought. This amounts to extortion, especially when such criteria involve denying deeply held religious beliefs. The state tried to justify these distorted demands by saying they were created by credentialed and "culturally sensitive experts." Again, the arrogance of these "professionals" to always presume they know better than parents is tragic.* (From Rod Remelin)

[phixion]

I urge everyone to watch the following South Park episode on the Mormon faith:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103933/

Pete

[dalesvp]

Subject: Walthered?

Lone Star Times
http://lonestartimes.com/2008/05/31/flds-gets-walthered-again/ *
Saturday, May 31, 2008
FLDS Gets Walthered Again
by BigJolly | 05/31/2008 8:39 am | Alert moderator
*

Remember the prosecutor in the Duke lacrosse case, Mike Nifong? Recall that a new word was introduced into the lexicon, “Nifonged“?


Nifonged describes the railroading or harming of a person with no justifiable cause, except for one’s own gain.


There is another term that will be added shortly: Walthered. Here is my initial definition.


Walthered describes the railroading or harming of families with small children with no justifiable cause, except to cover up one’s own incompetency.


Barbara Walther, the podunk West Texas judge that has been slapped down twice for her illegal order allowing the Texas DFPS to snatch up 460 children, threw a temper tantrum and walked out of court yesterday rather than sign an agreement that was reached between CPS and lawyers for the parents and children of the FLDS.


A state district judge who had been ordered by two higher courts to send children from a polygamist sect back home refused Friday to sign an order that would have started the process of reuniting them with their parents.


The judge’s unexpected move came after four hours of legal wrangling where it appeared some of the children from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) would be going home as early as Monday.


Attorneys left the courtroom scratching their heads over Judge Barbara Walther’s abrupt end of the hearing.


What happened? First, she took the agreement that had been hammered out and added her own little thoughts to it.


The sticking points centered on restrictions Walther added to an order that had been agreed upon among attorneys for Child Protective Services, the parents and the children.


Instead, Walther added additional restrictions, including restricting the parents’ movements and giving CPS 24-hour access to the Yearning for Zion Ranch near Eldorado, where more than 400 children were taken from after an April 3 raid.


When the lawyers for the children objected, pointing out that two courts have ruled that she removed the children for no reason and therefore she should not add restrictions to an agreement already worked out, she banged her gavel and called a recess so that she could review it again.


“I will take a look at the order and see if I can sign it,” Walther said before declaring a recess.


When she returned, Walther said she would only agree to sign it if all 38 mothers involved in the lawsuit also signed it.


“If you provide me with an order signed by all of your clients, I will sign it,” Walther said before leaving the bench.


Roughly a minute later, as baffled attorneys discussed her decision, a bailiff ordered everyone to vacate the courtroom.


So she walks back into court and says, fine, have all 38 mothers on the original order sign this and I’ll sign it too. Then she banged her gavel again and walked out.


Knowing full well that is going to take days because of her own incompetence - these 38 mothers are spread to the four corners of the state of Texas. And Texas isn’t Rhode Island.


That “essentially incarcerates the children and the mothers of our children for another 48 hours,” said Laura Shockley, a Dallas attorney, moments after startled lawyers filed out of the Tom Green County Courthouse.


You’re correct, Ms. Shockley. You’ve been Walthered.


And it looks like some of the people from Eldorado, where this stupidity started, are getting tired of it too.


Many here cheered the raids, but on Friday residents were fuming. “I absolutely don’t agree with what they do,” Curtis Phillips, 33, said of the FLDS as he worked the register at the town’s feed and mercantile store. “But blowing in that ranch like cowboys and taking all those kids — that was just stupid. That’s why people like me don’t trust the government.”


Curtis Griffin, 45, owner of the local fuel depot, counts many FLDS members as customers. He blamed Sheriff David Doran, who is up for reelection, for mischaracterizing the entire sect as pedophiles.


“I said from the word go, if there’s sex with underage girls, nail their butt,” said Griffin. “But nail the right people. We’re going to wind up with a $30-million bill here in this little county because these people didn’t have their ducks in a row.”

[acptulsa]

I took my brother out to eat on his birthday and the tube in the restaurant was tuned to CNN. It was one of their "personality centered" so-called news (actually opinion) shows and the female star was basically acting as a cheerleader for the feds. Weird to see the swarms of GMC Suburbans (or whatever they changed the name to) swooping in on women in long dresses and hearing this woman praising them for, essentially, kidnapping and terrorizing children. Very weird...

CNN gets more and more scary. Are they more frightening than Faux yet?

[dalesvp]

+ Patriots Thank you!!! WOW #1306 sigs. - PETITION BOMB! Sign Petition to Impeach Judge Walther Unlawful TX raid + DIGG TOO!
Posted June 3rd, 2008 by mefleabyte
bomb began @ 222 signatures ...now 1170
But, read below...for the scoop.
Thanks all!

State-Sponsored Terrorism in TX...

def. from Webster's: terrorism: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.

465 Children captured at gunpoint by State of TX

* * *

As ordered by the TX Supreme Court--Judge Walther, was forced to void her custody order which stole 465 FLDS children into state custody.

Why? "No evidence" said the Supreme court--for kidnapping 465 children, at gunpoint, with nursing mothers in tow.

Yesterday, after a 4 day intense battle with lawyers over the weekend--Walther used the return of children as a pawn game. Walther has coerced (again) the parents to agree to unconstitutional provision in her 'deal' --such as home searches, seizures,taking kids out for 'psychological' or medical exams at any time, fingerprints, mug shots, travel limits...and more. The FLDS are essentially on 'house arrest.' How long? Until the 'judge' says otherwise.

If you object to Judge Walter's military style raid and unlawful abduction---sign this petition to have her impeached.

If you object to the State of TX putting unconstitutional restraints on these families- sign here too.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/51168

[dalesvp]

"We're the legal parents." -- Texas CPS
Posted May 10th, 2008 by alaskaron

UPDATE 5/13/08: Texas mental health professionals are speaking out against the CPS's gestapo-like treatment of mothers and children!!!!

A couple weeks into the CPS raid on the FLDS ranch in Texas, a group of licensed professional counselors were summarily dismissed from their duties, accused by the CPS of being "too compassionate." Isn't it the alleged job of CPS to care for children? Then why all the concern about the contracted professional counselors actually caring about the children and mothers, you must wonder?

Read the reports from the Mental Health counselors who were contracted to provide services to the detainees. They are heart-breaking. One little boy broke from the line up and went over to a cop and said "You're the police. Help me get my mother back. She has done nothing wrong." The policeman could only say "I can't do that." Heart breaking.

There are 11 PDFs linked to from the SL Trib. article. Read them all and weep. Seriously. You will cry.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48642

[1776Patriot]

out here in Idaho nearly all of the Ron Paul meetup folks were mormons, but that being said most of the mormons by and large supported Mitt Romney. Yes, I know this is generalizations but when I went into the local gun store to ask if we could drop off some RP literature on the 2nd ammdmt. they said that he "hadn't a snowballs chance in hell" and that "we had a 'real' supporter of it (the 2d amdt.) up there but sadly he he's not in the running anymore." So, most supported McLame.

As well. this voting thing is the utmost that they will likely do to resist tyranny. They "...believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" even when that set of rulers is tyrannical and even if they, like now, are hell bent on establishing an-antiChrist dominion or one world order. They will try and vote them out sure, but that's about as much resistance as you'll get most of them to do. They believe their own book of mormon to be "more correct" then the Bible and thus their lack of resistance flies in contrast to americas original black robed regiment preachers and Biblical teachings as well.