Just a warning on the markets...

[G-khan]

As you can see on the link below the Asian markets are tanking

http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=asia

I suspect that many hedge funds are holding some paper from Countrywide Financial Corp. and it may become worthless if they file bankruptcy and I think they will..

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a.TCzAjLnkKY&refer=home

This may have a domino affect taking down banks and funds with it.. Don't know if it will but it sure looks scary to me. One day the house of cards will fall maybe this is it if they can't contain it. They also have created about 700 trillion in derivatives and IMO it is all a ticking bomb..

I know this is off topic of RP but I thought it important for all to look at.. On second thought maybe it is not too off topic seeing as RP wants to fix this and he knows what a pickle we are in... I heard that some money market funds are stoping withdrawels so be aware of that also?

[jpa]

anything we can do with our 401ks to prevent being wiped out?

[Bluedevil]

I have some gold and silver stocks now that have not been doing well. I expected them to go up as the economy crashed, or atleast not do worse than the market. For those of you who know more about this, should I stick it out, or sell and buy back in after the market crashes?

[G-khan]

anything we can do with our 401ks to prevent being wiped out?

I am not an adviser so I don't want to tell you what to do I just wanted to show you what I see.. I don't know if it will even turn bad they may contain it - they are very good at papering over all the paper they already created.

You need to read up and come to your own conclusions of what to do? You may not need to do a thing - they contained the NASDAQ bubble when that burst.. This is the housing and lending bubble - I think this may be a bigger problem..

[billv]

Next up, the Fed blows the Tulip Bubble =)

[billv]

Looking at how the markets have been down day after day, just a gut feeling but I don't think this thing is going to be pretty anytime soon. I think even if the sub-prime mess can be contained, the damage to the market psychology is done. Consumer expectations could be a recession in the future and they will cut consumption accordingly. Also, as an aside, even if the CPI didn't officially increase much, some elements have and I think that will be enough for consumers to believe things are bad, thus creating the "self fulfilling prophecy" that things will be bad.

[derdy]

I have some gold and silver stocks now that have not been doing well. I expected them to go up as the economy crashed, or atleast not do worse than the market. For those of you who know more about this, should I stick it out, or sell and buy back in after the market crashes?

If I were you, I'd stick it out (and I'm not you and this is not financial advise :D )

From what I've been reading gold and silver have been going lower lately because of all the liquidity being pumped into the markets and silly investors still being bullish on the US Dollar.

Volitality in Precious Metals from day-to-day and month to month is to be expected. Look at the year over year gains....

The best time to buy is when everyone else is selling.

Check out these sites for commentary and more expert analysis...

www.dailyreckoning.com
www.kitcosilver.com
www.kitco.com

Disclaimer: And remember this isn't financial advice!!:D

[beermotor]

anything we can do with our 401ks to prevent being wiped out?


You can try to put it into the money market thing (not sure how safe that is with currencies going bananas, but the dollar is up a bit lately)... or put it into precious metals if you have that option. But equities are gonna get slammed across the board. Your 401(k) is pretty much toast, only option now is to just ride it out. It'll probably only last a couple years. Hope you're not looking to retire any time soon...

[beermotor]

If I were you, I'd stick it out (and I'm not you and this is not financial advise :D )

From what I've been reading gold and silver have been going lower lately because of all the liquidity being pumped into the markets and silly investors still being bullish on the US Dollar.



People are just taking profits on other currencies, and/or they are worried about those currencies' inflation more than inflation in dollars. That worry will evaporate in an awful big hurry when the Fed cuts the overnight funds rate a quarter of a point, probably next month. And then the dollar will plummet.

So says Chuck Butler, and I think he's pretty smart - sounds plausible to me.

[markpa]

Most of my savings is in PM. I also thought that when the $ crashed they would shoot up but I think it's still the safest place to be right now. It could be in a years time that many stocks are worthless...the $ could be worthless... but Gold will NEVER be worthless. Just my 2cents.

[Johnnybags]

due to leverage in those instruments. QID or MZZ are ultrashort equity funds that pretty much at least double drops in equity markets inversely. Its good short term protection. Oil, gold and silver will be de-levered soon. I am looking at 55.00 oil, 450-500 gold and 9-10 dollar silver as the leverage sells things it has to, not wants to, then the PM's will be a buy. The entire world will lower rates because the entire world is headed for recession.

[MozoVote]

I'm about 85% cash and 15% stock in the company I work for. Pretty conservative, although not "bury gold in my back yard" conservative. :-}

I urged my mother to reallocate her 401k last Friday, but she wanted to stay in. Oh well, maybe patience is the key. But I'm glad on I'm the sideline.

[akalucas]

Just heard on cnbc some guys say basically the s^%t just hit the fan and that they have breaking news and said that countrywide said "For many years, Countrywide's liquidity management framework has focused on maintaining a diverse, multi-layered assortment of financing alternatives. A primary component of this framework is a committed, unsecured credit facility of $11.5 billion provided by a syndicate of 40 of the world's largest banks. In response to widely-reported market conditions, Countrywide has elected to draw upon this entire facility to supplement its funding liquidity position. Over 70 percent of this facility has an existing term greater than four years and the remainder has a term of at least 364 days"

not sure what this means

[MozoVote]

Countrywide has been closing offices and the CEO (Mozillo) making insider sales like a bandit the last year. People on the housing bubble blogs have simply wondered why it has taken so long...

Traders on the broker forums have been saying the whole securitization market has been frozen for a week for all adjustable rate stuff. If you're not a financial institution with your own cash on the balance sheet, you're not funding.

Not to fear. The Fed will wade in with another 100 bil in "liquidity injection" (cough) I mean "future inflation"

[Wyurm]

anything we can do with our 401ks to prevent being wiped out?

I've already done the only thing available to me which is to dump everything into the US treasury fund. If it tanks too then its all over (the fed created dollar). I did this back during the first scare of a possible Black Monday and I saw a report in which they said investors would be watching the Asian markets Sunday night to determine what to do. I suspect the Fed cant hold the markets up artificially forever, not to mention all the damage their "liquidity injections" do. It really makes me sad to see analysts praise the Fed for inflating our money like that.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

I have some gold and silver stocks now that have not been doing well. I expected them to go up as the economy crashed, or atleast not do worse than the market. For those of you who know more about this, should I stick it out, or sell and buy back in after the market crashes?

Bluedevil (or any other investment guru), are there some gold and/or silver ETFs that would be good to buy right now?

[Johnnybags]

Bluedevil (or any other investment guru), are there some gold and/or silver ETFs that would be good to buy right now?

You do "NOT" want to buy it here, all asset prices will fall on the de-leveraging at first. PM stocks have not perfromed well this year. Just wait for the dust to settle on PM funds and then buy.

[MozoVote]

Furthermore, as a result of lessened liquidity for loans which are not eligible for delivery to the GSEs, Countrywide has materially tightened its underwriting standards for such loans, and, we now expect that 90 percent of the loans we originate will be GSE-eligible or will meet our Bank's investment criteria.

That statement is very telling about the business mix that Countrywide has thrived on for the last several years. Very little conforming loans. All hybrid ARM stuff. It's going to be tough to steer that ship in a new direction.

[Hamburglar]

Glad I'm only 19, It'd suck to be close retirement age right now.
I'd suggest people look into some of the gold mining companies they are taking a beating from the market but the price of gold should increase or atleast stay the same. I've been invested in some of the gold companies for awhile and they are basicly half or two thirds the price they were last year with gold trading at around the same level. There might be some nice deals in that sector. I'm no expert but I'd recommend people check them out.
Panic makes for good deals.

[pappy]

I think everything will circle the drain this AM (including gold and silver). Go to all cash if possible then buy back in (in things like precious metals -- in my opinion) the nextcouple of months.

If your feeling frisky, short the market indexes (danger).

Pappy

[walt]

I think the media is actually doing a halfway decent job of covering this event and I think that is because of Ron Paul's educational efforts (even though they might not admit it).

[CJLauderdale4]

anything we can do with our 401ks to prevent being wiped out?

Two things to try:

- Loan yourself the amount that you have put in. You can take a loan out against your 401k, however, if your company matches, you cannot pull that portion out. Then, you pay yourself back with higher interest than the horrible rates on the 401k investments, allowing you to save more. Take the money you've loaned yourself, and invest in something with real value (in case of market crash - some ideas in above responses are a start).

- In your 401k itself, look and see if there are investment funds in bonds, or even an offered CASH savings fund where you only get the return you would in a savings account. These are the most conservative places to force your 401k money to go in times where most market investments are returning zero or negative returns (sucking up your money).

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

I don't short. You guys who live and breathe investments, could you post when you think we've hit the bottom or close to it? I have a big cash distribution that I need to play exactly right. Meanwhile, making 5% in money markets seems safe.

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

I'd say (and this is not professional advice), either cash out if you can, or just ride it out, raise some additional cash, and buy in once it bottoms out.

I don't think the Fed is going to cut rates any time soon. We already have some hyperinflation on some goods. Dairy products have skyrocketed, in fact, all food products, and anything that relies on transportation have gone up a lot more than the official "inflation" rate.

There is some good that can come out of this. If oil goes down, and why the price of oil isn't being discussed as the cause of some of this inflation is beyond me, to it's real cost, it will cut the price of gas, which will cut the price of anything that relies on transportation.

[sickmint79]

what happens if countrywide has my mortgage and they go out of business????

i filled out refi papers last night, actually.

[sickmint79]

I don't short. You guys who live and breathe investments, could you post when you think we've hit the bottom or close to it? I have a big cash distribution that I need to play exactly right. Meanwhile, making 5% in money markets seems safe.

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Laird/aug132007.html

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

sickmint,

You become a "asset" on their bankruptcy statement.

Another company holds your loan.

Just be sure to check all new paperwork to be sure nothing changes (payment, etc.). That company is supposed to keep all parts of your mortgage "contract" intact.

[Johnnybags]

I don't short. You guys who live and breathe investments, could you post when you think we've hit the bottom or close to it? I have a big cash distribution that I need to play exactly right. Meanwhile, making 5% in money markets seems safe.

The NAU is brought to the forefront in Congress. It is going to be discussed at some point when they come back, soon. International bankers and corporate America are forcing it on us, by 2010. Buy KSU hand over fist if it looks like a go, the ultimate railroad link from cheap Mexican ports.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

Dairy products have skyrocketed, in fact, all food products, and anything that relies on transportation have gone up a lot more than the official "inflation" rate.

That's because the ingredients of dairy (corn feed) are being diverted to ethanol. Anything relying on corn feed is going up because of the inefficient ethanol mandates. Stupid, stupid government.

[Cowlesy]

There's been an inane amount of leverage used in Hedge Funds to purchase Credit Derivative products that no one new how to value. A lot of the "quant" funds that use algorithms to determine trading patterns are witnessing 1 in 10,000yrs^360 events several days in a row (since that's about as long as the universe has existed or so,what does that tell you about their model, hah!). So a lot of them are getting put options hit on their collateral to secure the leverage, and so they need to unwind a lot of these positions at huge discounts to raise liquidity to fund redemptions----except a lot of these funds have frozen redemptions because they don't want to dump a lot of positions at huge discounts.

At the same time you have banks. Anyone could pick up a 10-Q of say Lehman and see that they report about 80billion of MBS (Mortgage Backed Securities) classified as Level III valued. What does Level III mean? It basically means they're valued using "Management's Best Estimate"----you can probably see where this is going. So if they're packed up with a lot of these homelenders experiencing trouble, it is not unforeseeable that these portfolios may get written down 10-15%----a $12 BILLION loss in one quarter.

It gets a lot more complicated than those simplications above, but predicting a bottom is very difficult when no one is sure how geared up a lot of these funds are--and if a lot are leveraged at 9-10x, you'll see (and we're seeing) lots of collateral puts and margin calls being intiated necessitating the unwinding of positions that just snowball.

[MsDoodahs]

I am looking at 55.00 oil, 450-500 gold and 9-10 dollar silver as the leverage sells things it has to, not wants to, then the PM's will be a buy.

Hey, something we agree on!

:)

[MsDoodahs]

I don't think the Fed is going to cut rates any time soon. We already have some hyperinflation on some goods. Dairy products have skyrocketed, in fact, all food products, and anything that relies on transportation have gone up a lot more than the official "inflation" rate.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

What you are seeing now isn't what I'd call a 'hyperinflation.'

[MsDoodahs]

I'm still an optimist, and I'm having a hard time not buying yet.

:eek:

(I keep telling myself to use the $ for an RP commercial instead. lol)

[4Horsemen]

Hey, something we agree on!

:)

Even now, PMs are a great buy. Look back in the late 80's when silver was going for $50 per oz, that's a lot of room to move up. Many predict the global markets will crash in the future, 100 X worse than the market during the late 80's. All the world markets are hyper-inflated with fiat money hot of the printers pumping into these markets. It's just paper as we already know. The banksters will bring the global economy to its knees, all by design of course.

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

What you are seeing now isn't what I'd call a 'hyperinflation.'

I'd disagree. Milk prices have gone up at least 20% in some markets in the past few months. Other dairy products have as well.

I don't know what you'd call the rise in gasoline and oil prices...I know they're supposedly "free market", but something is out of wack. Don't know if the war spooked the markets, but we have more oil inside the US today than we did in the 90's when gas was 90 cents a gallon.

Now, we certainly don't have economy-wide hyperinflation, but we have it in certain markets and sectors -- government induced, by the way.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

What's your preferred method of buying precious metals? ETFs? Is there an index fund? Off eBay? :D

[pazzo83]

I'd disagree. Milk prices have gone up at least 20% in some markets in the past few months. Other dairy products have as well.

I don't know what you'd call the rise in gasoline and oil prices...I know they're supposedly "free market", but something is out of wack. Don't know if the war spooked the markets, but we have more oil inside the US today than we did in the 90's when gas was 90 cents a gallon.

Now, we certainly don't have economy-wide hyperinflation, but we have it in certain markets and sectors -- government induced, by the way.

Hyperinflation involves prices changes in the hundreds of percent, a la Argentina in 2001. This is NOT hyperinflation. When milk goes from being $3/gal one day to $20/gal the next, then we can talk.

We might have more gas in the US today than in the 90s, but the demand is ALSO much greater. Plus the price of oil isn't determined by a free market thanks to OPEC, who likes to cut production to artificially keep the price above $60.

[specsaregood]

What's your preferred method of buying precious metals? ETFs? Is there an index fund? Off eBay? :D

For ease of purchasing PM coins; these guys are GREAT!
http://www.apmex.com/
If you don't have it in your hands, then do you really have it? :)

Also, I had a good time going through Ron Paul's personal investments from his FEC filing. Lots of gold and silver stocks, etc in there: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20070517_DISCLOSURES/ronpaul.pdf

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

I'd disagree. Milk prices have gone up at least 20% in some markets in the past few months. Other dairy products have as well.

Again, this is because corn -- cow feed -- as been diverted from food to ethanol, results of more stupid government mandates.

Question: How much would you pay per ounce for gold jewelry, up to $450/oz? Just thinking I can be on the lookout at estate sales for gold, not plated of course. Good idea? Bad idea?

[Spirit of '76]

For ease of purchasing PM coins; these guys are GREAT!
http://www.apmex.com/
If you don't have it in your hands, then do you really have it? :)

I'd also recommend APMEX for buying online, but nothing beats cash for physical silver at your local coin dealer.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

For example, at $450/oz, this ring would be worth abt $260, just a little over their Buy It Now price:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130143080072
Worthwhile?

[Spirit of '76]

Question: How much would you pay per ounce for gold jewelry, up to $450/oz? Just thinking I can be on the lookout at estate sales for gold, not plated of course. Good idea? Bad idea?

You pay a premium for jewelry because it's been crafted. Stick to bullion. It's cheaper, and it's also easier to sell off when you need.

Also, with bullion it's easier to certify the purity.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

You pay a premium for jewelry because it's been crafted. Stick to bullion. It's cheaper, and it's also easier to sell off when you need.

Also, with bullion it's easier to certify the purity.

I don't mean buying it at the jewelers! I mean, on it's face, buying sub-retail, second hand or whatever, for $450 or less per ounce. Am I missing anything? Purity, I suppose. But 25k/14k is 99% pure, right?

[purepaloma]

If interested in buying bullion in your investment account: Don't use the Gold or Silver ETF's...........instead use ticker symbol CEF (Central Fund of Canada)

CEF basically is a bullion holding company comprised of about 60% Gold 40% Silver. -- so you get a blend of both.

It is the most trusted of the bunch as they have the most audits and transparency.

CEF is a pillar in my retirement account.

[MsDoodahs]

Even now, PMs are a great buy. Look back in the late 80's when silver was going for $50 per oz, that's a lot of room to move up. Many predict the global markets will crash in the future, 100 X worse than the market during the late 80's. All the world markets are hyper-inflated with fiat money hot of the printers pumping into these markets. It's just paper as we already know. The banksters will bring the global economy to its knees, all by design of course.

The thing to remember is that IF the global economy is on its knees and life as we know it is totally changed..."greater depression" as I've been calling it, you probably don't need just gold and silver to get things done on the ground at your home. The plumber may not want silver in exchange for fixing the sink - but a carton of smokes might be just the ticket. The lady with chickens who can provide eggs for your family may not be willing to exchange them for gold but she MAY be happy to barter for a can of Maxwell House.

I'm just sayin'...

:eek:

[V-rod]

I'd disagree. Milk prices have gone up at least 20% in some markets in the past few months. Other dairy products have as well.

I don't know what you'd call the rise in gasoline and oil prices...I know they're supposedly "free market", but something is out of wack. Don't know if the war spooked the markets, but we have more oil inside the US today than we did in the 90's when gas was 90 cents a gallon.

Now, we certainly don't have economy-wide hyperinflation, but we have it in certain markets and sectors -- government induced, by the way.


Several of the oil refineries in the US have been closed down in the last few years, and new ones haven't been popped up. Many people believe that the Oil companies have put off building new ones to purposely drive up the price of oil high enough to make record profits, but not so high that it would create some investors to pump alot into alternative energy.

[MsDoodahs]

Hyperinflation involves prices changes in the hundreds of percent, a la Argentina in 2001. This is NOT hyperinflation. When milk goes from being $3/gal one day to $20/gal the next, then we can talk.

We might have more gas in the US today than in the 90s, but the demand is ALSO much greater. Plus the price of oil isn't determined by a free market thanks to OPEC, who likes to cut production to artificially keep the price above $60.

:)

[purepaloma]

I don't mean buying it at the jewelers! I mean, on it's face, buying sub-retail, second hand or whatever, for $450 or less per ounce. Am I missing anything? Purity, I suppose. But 25k/14k is 99% pure, right?

24K is pure but it stratches off over time. 14K has a mix of other metals.

Stick to the way of getting the MOST metal for the money..and that is bullion. Usually Kuggerrands are the cheapest way in gold and bars/rounds in silver.

You can try and dig through estate sales, ebay for steals on jewelry, silverware, etc - but there are so many people doing it that the prices you may find aren't that great and it's not worth the time hunting (i've tried)

[LibertyEagle]

Aren't you guys worried about confiscation of bullion?

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

Aren't you guys worried about confiscation of bullion?

I'll just store the gold in my gun safe. Nay, BEHIND my gun safe. (Order in which I need to access the items.)

[Duckman]

Aren't you guys worried about confiscation of bullion?

Yeah, I understand possession of bullion was banned at one point and then "re-legalized." I'm too young to remember this... what happened? Did the government make you surrender your bullion in exchange for fiat currency at a "fair price?"

[pappy]

They can't confiscate if they don't know you have it. Buy various forms of bullion anaonymously with cash. Store in a safe hidden place. don't tell anyone you've bought.

Do NOT store in safe deposit box. What's in there is open to discovery and not yours if the gummint wants it. (paranoia off)

Pappy

[Spirit of '76]

Aren't you guys worried about confiscation of bullion?

Do not store your PMs in a bank's "safe deposit box"! :)

[LibertyEagle]

Buying bullion with cash might work, but otherwise, it's my understanding that purchases of this are reported. (Note: Don't quote me on that though) And yes, it was confiscated once upon a time. But semi-numismatic coins were not.

http://www.mcalvany.com/gold101.asp

[LibertyEagle]

I'll just store the gold in my gun safe. Nay, BEHIND my gun safe. (Order in which I need to access the items.)

I really like your style, Scribbler. :D

[pappy]

find local coin shop willing to sell for cash without names.

they do exist

Pappy

[Spirit of '76]

The thing to remember is that IF the global economy is on its knees and life as we know it is totally changed..."greater depression" as I've been calling it, you probably don't need just gold and silver to get things done on the ground at your home. The plumber may not want silver in exchange for fixing the sink - but a carton of smokes might be just the ticket. The lady with chickens who can provide eggs for your family may not be willing to exchange them for gold but she MAY be happy to barter for a can of Maxwell House.

I'm just sayin'...

:eek:

Yep.

I invest heavily in... don't laugh... physical possession of tobacco.

Tinned tobacco does not spoil. As a matter of fact, it ages like wine and becomes exponentially more valuable over time. Additionally, as production goes down and taxes go up, it becomes even more valuable.

I have seen 50 gram tins of aged tobacco go for upwards of $1,000 on ebay. Considering a new tin of good tobacco at this point can be had for as little $4 - $10, I consider it a great investment.

Don't forget that before the days of the fiat dollar, tobacco was used as money in these United States. :)

[Spirit of '76]

Buying bullion with cash might work, but otherwise, it's my understanding that purchases of this are reported. (Note: Don't quote me on that though) And yes, it was confiscated once upon a time. But semi-numismatic coins were not.

"Sorry, sir, but I gave them all away as birthday gifts and graduation presents."

[G-khan]

What's your preferred method of buying precious metals? ETFs? Is there an index fund? Off eBay? :D

I run a Silver/Gold site and I can tell you this. If you plan on going into Silver or Gold get the real thing physical. If you get something other than what you can hold in your hand it is just like holding any type of paper - they promise to give you something... There is a saying I like a lot and makes sense to me " If you can't hold it you don't own it"..


Much like the mosaic ad in the Ames paper that the people on this site came up with I would like to show you a coin that the users on my site came up with and designed. Some of our users have given RP some of these...

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=158219

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x229/TomD77/Gim-bull.jpg

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

find local coin shop willing to sell for cash without names.

they do exist

Nugget rings off eBay or estate sales are looking better all the time!!!

[Ninja Homer]

At this point, it sounds like a small rural farm with off-the-grid power, water, and sewage might be a good investment.

The Ron Paul Dollar (http://libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar/index.htm) is looking better and better. You don't get as much precious metal for the investment, but they'd be more easily exchanged for goods and services than bullion. I think they'd be more safe from government confiscation than bullion as well.

[MsDoodahs]

"Sorry, sir, but I gave them all away as birthday gifts and graduation presents."

Ding ding ding!

[emilysdad]

Buying bullion with cash might work, but otherwise, it's my understanding that purchases of this are reported. (Note: Don't quote me on that though) And yes, it was confiscated once upon a time. But semi-numismatic coins were not.

http://www.mcalvany.com/gold101.asp

Buying PM's with cash over 10k is reported. Paying by check in any amount is not reported, however, "they" then know you have it! Take possession and keep it at home in a safe, not in a safe deposit box with your bank. Pay cash in increments under 10k and don't tell anybody you have it.

[aravoth]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=akK1t1bX7eu8&refer=home Hedge funds are doomed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDZm2VEGVLac&refer=home Countrywide tapped a huge credit line

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aZeiPo1FpMOg&refer=home

The dow right now is down 198. I can belive how many people where backed by mortgage securities. Crazy, it's like watching a global trainwreck in slow motion. I wonder how many wall street boys are going to fling themselves out a window in the next few months/weeks. I'd say we're on our way to the good ol' days of the poor farms and soup lines! Weee!!!

[UtahApocalypse]

It's all down hill from here folks.

[aravoth]

So hold on, it looks like the fed tossed 17 billion in today. I'm not an expert on any of this shit. But why pump in 17 billion? That would barely cover the debt for just countrywide. It's seems to me like If the fed keeps pumping in money, we'll just loose value of our dollar, and the bigger companies wouldn't be able to save themselves anyway. It's just inflation without any need for inflation. Am I right in assuming that?

[G-khan]

It's all down hill from here folks.

You may be right but don't count on it as I have thought it was over on several occasions and the paper pushers have been able to get out of it each time. When you have the power to create money out of thin air you can do just about anything you want. If this is the time they want it to crash then it will - if not well we go back up.

I thought it would crash in 2001 and then we had 9/11 and it saved us. Now it looks like they may use Iran to start a new war and wars are good for the economy - they print like crazy and no one questions it..

This is not a done deal IMO and we will see if they want a crash or pull something out of their bag of tricks to save the paper empire again!

[Original_Intent]

Not financial advice, and I am probably too late, but I have considered pulling my 401K, taking the 10% penalty, and the 20% withholding, and putting the rest into hard assets - not owning it on paper but cash and carry gold, silver, long term food storage.

I am probably over- reacting though, but that is what my gut instinct is.

Has the market had an up day since China "threatened" to dump their dollar reserves? I know the sub-prime mortgage market is being blamed, but I am wondering if the truth is it is more of a reaction to China's threats...

[G-khan]

So hold on, it looks like the fed tossed 17 billion in today. I'm not an expert on any of this shit. But why pump in 17 billion? That would barely cover the debt for just countrywide. It's seems to me like If the fed keeps pumping in money, we'll just loose value of our dollar, and the bigger companies wouldn't be able to save themselves anyway. It's just inflation without any need for inflation. Am I right in assuming that?

Its for liquidity and is given to banks that are reluctant to lend money. If they did not do this no one could get loans. I just heard the euro zone banks injected 100 billion into their system. Print it or in most cases enter digits into a banks account and presto they have money...

[aravoth]

Its for liquidity and is given to banks that are reluctant to lend money. If they did not do this no one could get loans. I just heard the euro zone banks injected 100 billion into their system. Print it or in most cases enter digits into a banks account and presto they have money...

gotcha

[MsDoodahs]

JMO, they aren't going to let it crash until they're ready to usher in the Amero.

[G-khan]

Not financial advice, and I am probably too late, but I have considered pulling my 401K, taking the 10% penalty, and the 20% withholding, and putting the rest into hard assets - not owning it on paper but cash and carry gold, silver, long term food storage.

I am probably over- reacting though, but that is what my gut instinct is.

Has the market had an up day since China "threatened" to dump their dollar reserves? I know the sub-prime mortgage market is being blamed, but I am wondering if the truth is it is more of a reaction to China's threats...

I don't want to give any advice as I may be wrong and you must decide what to do on your own and accept what happens as your own decision. In most cases it is not wise to make decisions when you are in a panic state or out of feelings. Saying that and if you decide to hang in there you may lose your ass. I don't know what is going to happen and no one else does.. Most of the time this crap blows over? Will it this time? I have no idea...

Lot of help I am huh?

[aravoth]

JMO, they aren't going to let it crash until they're ready to usher in the Amero.

Nah, They'd have to do it well in advance, americans won't stand for that. So they'd have to have us all living in filth before they said "we've got the answer! here, we'll use this new type of play money, and we'll make a union with canada and mexico, that way we'll never have to worry about economic stability." Then, while americans are going through the great depression 2.0, the people will probably beg for it.

[MsDoodahs]

G-khan is right.

:)

[4Horsemen]

For ease of purchasing PM coins; these guys are GREAT!
http://www.apmex.com/
If you don't have it in your hands, then do you really have it? :)

Also, I had a good time going through Ron Paul's personal investments from his FEC filing. Lots of gold and silver stocks, etc in there: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20070517_DISCLOSURES/ronpaul.pdf

Bingo! ETFs are just a promise written in paper. We all know what happens to people who trust too much. Try Apmex.com or Bulliondirect.com. There's no sure way to protect yourself, but using history isn't a bad idea. Who really knows what these banksters are up to, but it isn't good that's for sure. :rolleyes:

[MsDoodahs]

they'd have to have us all living in filth

Barter idea: soap.
:)

[aravoth]

Barter idea: soap.
:)

hehehehehe

[purepaloma]

For those in the Phoenix area, the best place to buy bullion is BAR-NONE: Valley Coin at Scottsdale Road & Shea.

No names, Cash Only, and the best prices I've ever seen on a consistent basis.

[G-khan]

Here are two links to sites you can buy PM's at that have been very good to members at my site goldismoney.info

I have had a couple of requests for the Silver Bulls with Abolish the Fed on them and you can ask if they have any left at this site. You will pay a little extra for this custom round we had made (I or my site does not make a penny on it) They also sell bulk bullion at good prices and you can count on them.

http://www.discountsilverclub.com/contact.html

The other place I recommend and was mentioned above is APMEX and here is their website...

http://www.apmex.com/

Both of these places have been very good and have fair prices.. Try to make it to a coin show and you may find even better deals..

Also if it is a very large purchase check out tulving.com

[tmg19103]

Anybody know where I can buy gold bullion in Philadelphia?

[aravoth]

Look at cnn.com ouch.

[MsDoodahs]

Aravoth, which of your vids would be best for the investing audience?

[lbrtylvr]

the bottom right now. just called it 10:07 PDT.

[aravoth]

Aravoth, which of your vids would be best for the investing audience?

I was working on a pretty decent one until my computer took a dump, right now the 2 that have the most clout for investor would be stop dreaming, and don't tread on me. I'll try to get another one together soon. If any of you investor savvy people can tell me what points to highlight It would greatly help.

[MsDoodahs]

Aravoth, I'm certainly not a savvy investor...but...

Austrian bubble theory, maybe?

Gov't business collusion/corporatism?

Sound money vs abra kadabra money?

[hatefalseweight]

I'm pretty much all into pms and other commodities. This is even worse than last May when they bombed gold down $40 and close to some of the Nasdaq collapse days. There are very quality companies out there that have refilled the only remaining gaps on there charts from last October, so these thieves that run the show have made sure that any buy / holder has had the wonderful opportunity to lose all their profits from the past year and then some and sit in stupefied horror at their current state wondering if they will have anything to buy bread with in the morning.


The best gold growth companies out there are Agnico Eagle (AEM) , Yamana (AUY) ... Goldcorp is decent (GG) .... those are all producing profitable companies and will shoot straight back up when a bid is put back in on this market. Today it isn't even selling, it is just lack of buying. Anyone selling today is being margined out, no doubt about it. The "technical" signals that I use are beyond anything I've seen for the most part on the oversold measures, so that's when you want to be buying for the most part, but these situations where you have massive forced sales by huge institutions taking huge losses lead to the normal buyers stepping aside and allowing everyone else to get killed along with the big sellers going under. These are the "black swan" or "rogue wave" rare situations where all the quantitive models these thieves use break down because market participants are smart enough to see when their competitors are over a barrel and the central banks have to step.

I can give you a bunch of other stocks... Aurizon (AZK) which is a new producer, Minefinders (MFN) which will be producing in a few months .... Novagold (NG) has a lot of copper and the largest gold reserve of any of the new producers coming along ... Silver Standard (SSRI) and Silver Wheaton (SLW) are the go-to silver stocks ....

I use www.goldmoney.com ... you can just wire fiat money to them and they will electronically purchase gold or silver for you and hold it offshore ... on an island off england I think ...

[WannaBfree]

Do not miss this interview with economic expert and Harvard Doctor of Political Science Jerome Corsi. Corsi warns that the crisis in the stock market we are currently witnessing is simply the tip of the iceberg...

here is an article on the interview with audio link

Economic Expert: We Are Already In An Engineered Recession
http://infowars.net/articles/august2007/150807Corsi.htm

DO NOT MISS IT!

[MsDoodahs]

Anyone catch the Wilbur Ross interview just a few minutes ago on Bloomers?

And this Mayor that's on there now...Trenton, NJ. He's saying the Feds have to step in and save all these stupid homeowners that bought houses they can't afford.

WTF?

I'm going to get to pay for some stupid fuckers house?

OMG. He just said it is the blacks and latinos that need to be bailed out. :eek:

WTF? HOW DAMNED RACIST.

GRRRRR.

Makes my frikken blood boil.

Bring back Mr. Ross. He was funny.

[WannaBfree]

Regarding gold - it's recommended to stay away from "paper gold" - it's paper! You might make some $ on it for a while but if there is a crisis, you may never be able to cash in. Physical gold & silver is recommended.

Regarding the bullion confiscation, I believe it happened in 1933 under FDR. The govt took all the people's gold and gave them paper (Fed notes) in return. This is the same year the govt put the weird pyramid symbol on the back of the dollar bill (does that symbol look American to you?). Some believe that old gold coins like Swiss francs or British Sovereigns, etc, have some protection against confiscation as they can be considered collectors coins and I believe such coins were exempt from confiscation in '33. Many of these old coins are the best deals in regard to the amount of gold you get for your money. For silver, the best value is "junk silver" - pre-1964 (I think) US silver coins. (I'm actually pretty sure of all this info but just being careful).

[derdy]

So says Chuck Butler, and I think he's pretty smart - sounds plausible to me.

Yes, I love Chuck Butler. I read the Daily Pfeffing everyday! The Mogambo Guru (Richard Daughty) is great too! Not sure if you're familiar with his work but here's one of his articles, you can find him on the commentaries on Kitco, Kitcosilver and dailyreckoning.com

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/Writers/Mogambo/DREssays/MG070407.html

[Syren123]

Aren't you guys worried about confiscation of bullion?

Theoretically yes. In reality, no. Protection mechanisms in place.

[Syren123]

I'll just store the gold in my gun safe. Nay, BEHIND my gun safe. (Order in which I need to access the items.)

LOL! Cool-headed thinking there.

[Syren123]

Yep.

I invest heavily in... don't laugh... physical possession of tobacco.

Tinned tobacco does not spoil. As a matter of fact, it ages like wine and becomes exponentially more valuable over time. Additionally, as production goes down and taxes go up, it becomes even more valuable.

I have seen 50 gram tins of aged tobacco go for upwards of $1,000 on ebay. Considering a new tin of good tobacco at this point can be had for as little $4 - $10, I consider it a great investment.

Don't forget that before the days of the fiat dollar, tobacco was used as money in these United States. :)

THIS is what I love most about the folks on this board. The sheer ingenuity and creative, outside the box thinking that goes on here is astounding.

Yet another thing to thank Ron Paul for.

[WannaBfree]

Theoretically yes. In reality, no. Protection mechanisms in place.

any more info on this (or links?)? I've heard otherwise...

[Syren123]

Not financial advice, and I am probably too late, but I have considered pulling my 401K, taking the 10% penalty, and the 20% withholding, and putting the rest into hard assets - not owning it on paper but cash and carry gold, silver, long term food storage.


How funny. That is EXACTLY what I did earlier this year! Cashed out my 403b, took the abusive fee/tax hit, paid off credit card, and put the rest into coins and water/food storage. Kept about 10K in $ for buying more in the future.

Great idea. I'm willing to live with the consequences of this decision, whatever they are. Once I figured out what the return on my money in my 403b would be in the end, it wasn't worth it, imo. I was more afraid of a cataclysm that would wipe it out than I am about not getting an annuity payment many years from now. I'm willing to make other arrangements.

[derdy]

find local coin shop willing to sell for cash without names.

they do exist

Pappy

yepp, they sure do! :D

[Syren123]

any more info on this (or links?)? I've heard otherwise...

No...I've just read grumblings about it. Nothing concrete. But...just being cautious.
If they ever do confiscate gold, it will be in conjunction with the general overhaul of the money system aka ushering in the Amero.

[derdy]

Nah, They'd have to do it well in advance, americans won't stand for that. So they'd have to have us all living in filth before they said "we've got the answer! here, we'll use this new type of play money, and we'll make a union with canada and mexico, that way we'll never have to worry about economic stability." Then, while americans are going through the great depression 2.0, the people will probably beg for it.

That's EXACTLY what I've been telling people. Americans will be begging for a way out and along came the Amero, gee how convenient!;)

[Cowlesy]

You should all if you haven't yet make an investment in Ron Paul for $2,300.

:D

[Syren123]

You should all if you haven't yet make an investment in Ron Paul for $2,300.
:D

Best investment around.
Maxed out early myself.

[bc2208]

Ok so I've learned a lot from this discussion so far. I'm 21, soon to graduate college. I have about $30k that I have just taken out of CDs my parents had set up for me. Thankfully, I have no debt. So right now my gut is telling me I want gold, but I am the epitome of a novice and don't know the answers to these questions:

What % of my holdings should be PM vs Cash? (No plans for stocks now)

I don't like ETFs, but what is the difference between something like GoldMoney.com and physical gold? Is there that much of a chance that I wouldn't be able to get out of GoldMoney?

How does one liquidate physical gold? Does condition matter, do you need certificates, do you get fair prices?

For someone without a permanent residence yet (or a gun lol), is gold safe to store?

I'm really trying to figure this stuff out, and I don't want to rush but I do feel a sense of urgency. Thanks guys for your help.

[Spirit of '76]

THIS is what I love most about the folks on this board. The sheer ingenuity and creative, outside the box thinking that goes on here is astounding.

Yet another thing to thank Ron Paul for.


"If you can't send money, send tobacco."

-- General George Washington, appealing to the Continental Congress on behalf of his army

:D

[MsDoodahs]

Ok so I've learned a lot from this discussion so far. I'm 21, soon to graduate college. I have about $30k that I have just taken out of CDs my parents had set up for me. Thankfully, I have no debt. So right now my gut is telling me I want gold, but I am the epitome of a novice and don't know the answers to these questions:

What % of my holdings should be PM vs Cash? (No plans for stocks now)

I don't like ETFs, but what is the difference between something like GoldMoney.com and physical gold? Is there that much of a chance that I wouldn't be able to get out of GoldMoney?

How does one liquidate physical gold? Does condition matter, do you need certificates, do you get fair prices?

For someone without a permanent residence yet (or a gun lol), is gold safe to store?

I'm really trying to figure this stuff out, and I don't want to rush but I do feel a sense of urgency. Thanks guys for your help.

For how much to put where, there are various books you can get.

I personally like Harry Browne's "Fail Safe Investing."

JMO, and YMMV.

[Spirit of '76]

I don't like ETFs, but what is the difference between something like GoldMoney.com and physical gold? Is there that much of a chance that I wouldn't be able to get out of GoldMoney?

Were I you, I'd make sure most of my PM holdings were physical as a long-term investment and hedge against inflation; however, if you want to play with some for trade and profit, you might look into buying into something like the pool accounts at Kitco:

https://online.kitco.com/sellprice/selling_pools.html

[slantedview]

Those countrywide puts look better every day :) Sweeeeeet.

[AZJV]

http://cmi-gold-silver.com/buy-sell-gold-silver.html

If you are buying bullion and want to take possesion try these folks. They've been in business for decades and are very honest. they will ship to you. I live here so I just pick up the gold and silver when i buy.

[Original_Intent]

And I still hear ads on the radio like this -

"Do not let your bad credit keep you from buying the car of your dreams! You WILL be approved regardless of your credit. We have a limited time, we MUST lend this money by August 31 or lose our allocation..."

Gee, maybe a person's bad credit is TELLING them that they should NOT get the car of their dreams (at least not right now).

Makes me so mad - I know the Fed is largely responsible, but people in general due to greed, whatever, that get in over their heads are also responsible.

For every "bad lender" there are probably 10,000 "bad borrowers". :mad:

[bc2208]

The DOW is up! I'm working on wall street & we just had a good cheer when it finally broke.

Thanks for the tips everyone

[Cowlesy]

Yeah because China (banks, probably Citic) just purchased a huge chunk of equity in Bear Stearns. Not sure which banks yet.

[Spirit of '76]

And I still hear ads on the radio like this -

"Do not let your bad credit keep you from buying the car of your dreams! You WILL be approved regardless of your credit. We have a limited time, we MUST lend this money by August 31 or lose our allocation..."

Gee, maybe a person's bad credit is TELLING them that they should NOT get the car of their dreams (at least not right now).

How about the ones that promise people with bad credit a $600 computer for a series of payments that adds up to about $2,200?

[lbrtylvr]

the bottom right now. just called it 10:07 PDT.

if anybody wants to subscribe to my newsletter let me know.

[jonahtrainer]

Were I you, I'd make sure most of my PM holdings were physical as a long-term investment and hedge against inflation; however, if you want to play with some for trade and profit, you might look into buying into something like the pool accounts at Kitco:

https://online.kitco.com/sellprice/selling_pools.html

Physical possession of gold is the best. Whenever the markets are stormy I just get out handfuls of gold coins and hold them. How calming. GoldMoney.com is second because of the internal controls. GoldMoney.com may even have some advantages but it also has disadvantages. I hold equal amounts of physical gold and GoldMoney.com.

They, along with physical silver (I do not recommend GoldMoney.com's silver .... you will want physical possession of silver because of the FINCEN regs (http://www.fincen.gov/fincenruling2006-1.html) as silver will be how wealth is transferred into the next phase), food (2-3 year supply on hand), guns and shelter form the bedrock of my investing strategy for allocation of capital. I also trade in the stock market, futures and options.

The 'pool' accounts are not as good as physical or GoldMoney.com because of their unallocated status.

Saving your 401k? Good luck. They are the next target for confiscation by our beloved welfare state. People get suckered in because of the 'tax' advantages. I think they would be better off buying physical gold and silver.

Ron Paul gave an April speech (http://www.apfn.net/pogo/M001I060425193838-RON-PAUL-MONEY-4-25-06.MP3) about how the emperor has no clothes. We are seeing it happening. We are in the Age of Turbulence (http://www.amazon.com/Age-Turbulence-Adventures-New-World/dp/1594201315).

[BIG_J]

Ha-ha! Are you John Mouldin?!

In that case; I already get your newsletter!

[BIG_J]

AND

I WOULD BE RUNNING FOR the doors from Bear Stearns...

Seriously; what a crazy day?! People are off thier rockers today.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

They, along with physical silver (I do not recommend GoldMoney.com's silver .... you will want physical possession of silver because of the FINCEN regs (http://www.fincen.gov/fincenruling2006-1.html) as silver will be how wealth is transferred into the next phase), food (2-3 year supply on hand), guns and shelter form the bedrock of my investing strategy for allocation of capital. I also trade in the stock market, futures and options.

There's something cozy about that. I loved getting ready for Y2K. Now for a bunker . . . Am I nuts? :D

[G-khan]

We had a big rally today at the end to bring the DOW from down 340 to just down 15... HP came out with their results and beats the street expectations by a nickel so I suspect we will get a rally here. We had a bunch of sort covering going on into the close as there was a lot of traders shorting the financial s that had to cover...

My guess is we will get maybe a 50% bounce and then they may start shorting again and take the market back down.. Or this was just a correction and we make new highs - I think we go back down after a relief rally.. This is just my guess at this point..

We will find out in a few days - I do think this is a good time to buy PM's as they took a good hit and next time the market heads south I think they will head North..

[MsDoodahs]

What I want to know is...

Where in the hell is that nefarious PPT hiding?

:p

(My guess is ... just a correction)

[purepaloma]

Read Jim Sinclair on Gold & investments.

www.jsmineset.com

brilliant guy ! and was the single largest bullion trader in the world during the 70's-80's. Dubbed MR GOLD by Fortune Magazine.

[jonahtrainer]

Theoretically yes. In reality, no. Protection mechanisms in place.

The government could issue a confiscation order. However, I seriously doubt there will be a confiscation order. That would result in civil war, or at least war on the government, if enforced. Politicians want to stay in power by being reelected. The last thing they want to become is the hunted like during the French Revolution and Reign of Terror.

First, there are vast, vast structural differences between the gold environment of 1933 and today. Today, there are no legal or contractual links between gold and the US dollar, the Federal Reserve, and US banks.

Second, confiscating gold again would be the final coup de grace slaughtering the fragile US dollar as thoroughly as if Hercules himself had shoved a burning firebrand down the beast's throat. Fiat currency is a confidence game and confiscating gold would be the ultimate vote of no confidence.

Third, the fearsome implications of a new gold confiscation attempt in our brave new world in social terms make it a political suicide play for any future tyrant of the dark ilk of socialist dictator Franklin Roosevelt. Too many Americans own physical gold and too many are waking up to its investment potential.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Some counterpoints by someone who actually fears a confiscation would be nice to analyze.

[Cowlesy]

If people were covering their rears on being short bank stocks I think that is just downright foolish. I really don't think the spanking they're going to take on writedowns of MBS portfolios is really priced in yet. That's probably what happened when BSC spiked due to the rumblings about our friends the Chinese buying a big chunk of the BSC pie.

[G-khan]

What I want to know is...

Where in the hell is that nefarious PPT hiding?

:p

(My guess is ... just a correction)

We will have to see - too early to tell IMO

Watch and see if they sell into the rally and watch what the insiders are doing. if they are buying or selling... anyhow that is what I will be doing..

[bc2208]

What taxes do you pay on sale of gold?

[WannaBfree]

That's EXACTLY what I've been telling people. Americans will be begging for a way out and along came the Amero, gee how convenient!;)

the problem-reaction-solution paradigm!

[WannaBfree]

What taxes do you pay on sale of gold?

unconstitutional ones!

I think you pay taxes on the gains. RP is against this. Because it's not the gold that's rising, it's the dollar that it's measured by that's falling.

[purepaloma]

What taxes do you pay on sale of gold?

Long or short term capital gains - but nobody reports it. You must put it on your taxes like you would if you bought a furniture and then sold it later for a profit.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

What taxes do you pay on sale of gold?

I have to pay sales tax here in MN on the purchase of it, which is why I'd buy out of state.

[Cowlesy]

Chinese injected $2 billion into Bear Stearns. Welcome the new overlords. Imagine if the Chinese owned this chunk of Bear before all this misery---they would have been executing Managing Directors and Analysts!

[Bob Cochran]

anything we can do with our 401ks to prevent being wiped out?
Yes, learn to self-trade in a market like the retail spot forex market.

It can all be done fully automatically now.

[ghemminger]

Yes, learn to self-trade in a market like the retail spot forex market.

It can all be done fully automatically now.

I would like to learn a lot about trading currencies

[Bob Cochran]

The DOW is up! I'm working on wall street & we just had a good cheer when it finally broke.

Thanks for the tips everyone
?????????

Okay!:D

[Bob Cochran]

I would like to learn a lot about trading currencies
If you trade in a market, you want to be able to freely hedge any position you take, meaning you should be allowed to go both long and short at the same time. It's like this in the retail spot forex market.

Trade long on drops within uptrends and trade short on rises within downtrends. When no trend is indicated, simply short into up-action and buy into down-action.

Systematically manage your open trades before you think about opening new ones. Use opportunistic profit-taking that lets you offset dangling losing trades. Close each biggest loser when you have booked offsetting profit plus a little extra. In trending action, do let the open winners run, at least until a trend is no longer in force, and probably with specific price targets in mind -- this will give you more money with which to close each bigger loser. In sideways action, scalp.

Manage your lot sizes carefully. Open maybe only two large-lot trades in either direction, and any other trades you open in either direction could be maybe one-tenth of what you determine to be your big lot size. Monitor your margin usage such that you always have plenty of dry powder.

This method calls for NOT USING STOPS. Stops are for chumps. That may sound odd but there are other fine ways to manage risk than using stops.

We call this approach "reactive-corrective". Grizzled old traders have been doing this for a long time.

All of this has been made fully automatic -- via software -- by me and others.

Just be careful to test anything you want to use for months before using it with real money.

[Jennifer Reynolds]

///

[Bob Cochran]

A financial system cannot create trillions out of thin air and then loan it out to people who will never be able to pay it back without long-term dreadful consequences. :)

[Hook]

People are selling their gold to buy t-bills that they think are safer. That is what I read today. I have no idea what to do, but if the dollar tanks then don't the t-bills? If so, then you need silver and gold, yes? So you wouldn't want to sell.

Do I have this right?

No one knows what will happen when, so the best thing to do is spread your investments in gold, stocks, bonds, cash, etc... That way whatever happens you are covered. Otherwise you have to run yourself ragged trying to keep up and time the markets, which always fails in the long run anyway.

[Hook]

Chinese injected $2 billion into Bear Stearns. Welcome the new overlords. Imagine if the Chinese owned this chunk of Bear before all this misery---they would have been executing Managing Directors and Analysts!

Heh, the Chineese don't F around that is for sure.

[tnvoter]

stocks are going to get really low. and then the rich are going to BUY tons. then they will go back. and the people who bought the stocks that are so low are going to the bank, quite happily. that's the age-old story, and it's about to happen again.

[Jennifer Reynolds]

///

[sunny]

They can't confiscate if they don't know you have it. Buy various forms of bullion anaonymously with cash. Store in a safe hidden place. don't tell anyone you've bought.

Do NOT store in safe deposit box. What's in there is open to discovery and not yours if the gummint wants it. (paranoia off)

Pappy

agreed!

[MsDoodahs]

That's because food, fuel, and housing prices are not a part of the CPI.

Core CPI excludes fuel and energy but it includes housing.

Headline CPI includes all three.

:)

[sunny]

At this point, it sounds like a small rural farm with off-the-grid power, water, and sewage might be a good investment.

The Ron Paul Dollar (http://libertydollar.org/ld/ronpauldollar/index.htm) is looking better and better. You don't get as much precious metal for the investment, but they'd be more easily exchanged for goods and services than bullion. I think they'd be more safe from government confiscation than bullion as well.

agreed!

[sunny]

Buying PM's with cash over 10k is reported. Paying by check in any amount is not reported, however, "they" then know you have it! Take possession and keep it at home in a safe, not in a safe deposit box with your bank. Pay cash in increments under 10k and don't tell anybody you have it.

you are correct emily and that's good advice!

[sunny]

So hold on, it looks like the fed tossed 17 billion in today. I'm not an expert on any of this shit. But why pump in 17 billion? That would barely cover the debt for just countrywide. It's seems to me like If the fed keeps pumping in money, we'll just loose value of our dollar, and the bigger companies wouldn't be able to save themselves anyway. It's just inflation without any need for inflation. Am I right in assuming that?

it was 130billion...

[Spirit of '76]

Heh, the Chineese don't F around that is for sure.

Ha Ha Ha America:

http://www.atomfilms.com/film/haha_america.jsp

[Jennifer Reynolds]

///

[sunny]

Regarding gold - it's recommended to stay away from "paper gold" - it's paper! You might make some $ on it for a while but if there is a crisis, you may never be able to cash in. Physical gold & silver is recommended.

Regarding the bullion confiscation, I believe it happened in 1933 under FDR. The govt took all the people's gold and gave them paper (Fed notes) in return. This is the same year the govt put the weird pyramid symbol on the back of the dollar bill (does that symbol look American to you?). Some believe that old gold coins like Swiss francs or British Sovereigns, etc, have some protection against confiscation as they can be considered collectors coins and I believe such coins were exempt from confiscation in '33. Many of these old coins are the best deals in regard to the amount of gold you get for your money. For silver, the best value is "junk silver" - pre-1964 (I think) US silver coins. (I'm actually pretty sure of all this info but just being careful).

agreed! forget the paper - it is just paper!
get the metals and take physical delivery
yes it was 1933 under fdr
swiss francs and british sovereigns can go either way - they are fractional so low premiums - universally recognized -
junk is good and also 1 oz generic rounds - (or bars if you're into them - same price)

as far as confiscation goes - if they don't know you have it they cannot confiscate it -
PRIVACY is the key!

[sunny]

Were I you, I'd make sure most of my PM holdings were physical as a long-term investment and hedge against inflation; however, if you want to play with some for trade and profit, you might look into buying into something like the pool accounts at Kitco:

https://online.kitco.com/sellprice/selling_pools.html

kitco prices are high...

[sunny]

What taxes do you pay on sale of gold?

you don't...

[sunny]

People are selling their gold to buy t-bills that they think are safer. That is what I read today. I have no idea what to do, but if the dollar tanks then don't the t-bills? If so, then you need silver and gold, yes? So you wouldn't want to sell.

Do I have this right?

you cannot lose with purchasing metals jennifer........any dollar denominated assets are doomed. metals will ONLY increase in value. they will always be MONEY~

[Cowlesy]

I'm listening to some guys on CNBC, and I swear this guy screaming for a rate cut has never heard of the very simple concept of MORAL F'ING HAZARD.

[LibertyEagle]

stocks are going to get really low. and then the rich are going to BUY tons. then they will go back. and the people who bought the stocks that are so low are going to the bank, quite happily. that's the age-old story, and it's about to happen again.

Everything will be low. Land, everything. The key is to have some money at the point everything tanks, so you can be one of the ones who can buy things, when they are at the bottom.

[Suzu]

We already have some hyperinflation on some goods. Dairy products have skyrocketed, in fact, all food products, and anything that relies on transportation have gone up a lot more than the official "inflation" rate.

Not having to pay attention to this whole market rollercoaster is one of the advantages of having no money. It's also a fine time for people like me who are allergic to dairy products - which don't hold up well in dumpsters anyway.

I always wonder if Ron Paul has ever read Alan Watts' essay "Wealth vs. Money".

[Suzu]

You guys with money to play with might enjoy BetOnMarkets.com (http://www.betonmarkets.com)

[tiznow]

we were on a gold standard back during the 1st depression, silver did poorly just like everything else during the great depression. you gold bugs better watch out. gold miners have been getting absolutely destroyed since this downswing started gold miner index took another 5%+ haircut today. basically we've had years of eveything go up (except the value of the dollar), now the liquidation has begun and everything will go down in value. If the banks fail and we move to a bartering system (highly unlikely) than yeah gold will be great, otherwise cash will be king IMO.

That said I could be wrong and i'm diversified and own gold coins. I sold all my gold stocks months back and flipped to a heavily short the markets position.

[purepaloma]

DO NOT buy Gold or Silver in POOL accounts (like kitco) !!!!

They are NOT allocated and if the firm goes under......YOU GET NOTHING !!!

only 2 online versions that have protection are goldmoney.com & bullionvault.com (allocated & insured) - other than that, own PHYSICAL in your possession !

[derdy]

Gotta love The Mogambo Guru...

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/Writers/Mogambo/DREssays/MG081607.html

:D :D

[G-khan]

we were on a gold standard back during the 1st depression, silver did poorly just like everything else during the great depression. you gold bugs better watch out. gold miners have been getting absolutely destroyed since this downswing started gold miner index took another 5%+ haircut today. basically we've had years of eveything go up (except the value of the dollar), now the liquidation has begun and everything will go down in value. If the banks fail and we move to a bartering system (highly unlikely) than yeah gold will be great, otherwise cash will be king IMO.

That said I could be wrong and i'm diversified and own gold coins. I sold all my gold stocks months back and flipped to a heavily short the markets position.

Well you are only telling part of the story for the 1929 crash.. They went down until 1931 when we had 5000 banks fail and then Gold and Silver and the stocks went up and did well.

Everything has a risk going to cash is a risk as it can go to 0 and be just worth the paper it is printed on. Ask the Germans in 1924 it took a wheelbarrow of marks to buy a loaf of bread.. The only thing that has held some value always or at least for the last 5000 years has been silver and gold.. never goes to 0

The longest lasting currency ever (beside gold silver) was the tally stick and that lasted for 700 years.. Point is any investment or basket you put your eggs in has risk including cash!

[tiznow]

Well you are only telling part of the story for the 1929 crash.. They went down until 1931 when we had 5000 banks fail and then Gold and Silver and the stocks went up and did well.

Everything has a risk going to cash is a risk as it can go to 0 and be just worth the paper it is printed on. Ask the Germans in 1924 it took a wheelbarrow of marks to buy a loaf of bread.. The only thing that has held some value always or at least for the last 5000 years has been silver and gold.. never goes to 0

The longest lasting currency ever (beside gold silver) was the tally stick and that lasted for 700 years.. Point is any investment or basket you put your eggs in has risk including cash!

well i'm not sure when silver rebounded but i know it collapsed in the wake of the great depression. That said I see a somewhat similar scenerio here where we have alot of overextending economies in south america, australia etc that have boomed on this commodity boom the last 4+ years. All the world economies are very symbiotic right now so when somebody blinks everybody does. The first great depression was a global depression not just a US affair. Depressions happen because there aren't other economies around the world to help support the world economy all have reached a point of overextension and thus fall hard in unison.


Excerpt from http://www.futurecasts.com/Depression_mythology-I.html

Huge commodity surpluses overwhelmed the international copper cartel - silver prices collapsed destroying the purchasing power of currencies denominated in silver - and the federal Farm Board was overwhelmed and forced to allow grain and cotton prices to sink like stones, exposing the U.S. economy to the full impact of its loss of agricultural export markets.

[Hook]

Well you are only telling part of the story for the 1929 crash.. They went down until 1931 when we had 5000 banks fail and then Gold and Silver and the stocks went up and did well.

Everything has a risk going to cash is a risk as it can go to 0 and be just worth the paper it is printed on. Ask the Germans in 1924 it took a wheelbarrow of marks to buy a loaf of bread.. The only thing that has held some value always or at least for the last 5000 years has been silver and gold.. never goes to 0

The longest lasting currency ever (beside gold silver) was the tally stick and that lasted for 700 years.. Point is any investment or basket you put your eggs in has risk including cash!

So make sure to always DIVERSIFY! Gold, stocks, bonds, cash. Read Harry Browne's "Fail Safe Investing"

[tiznow]

So make sure to always DIVERSIFY! Gold, stocks, bonds, cash. Read Harry Browne's "Fail Safe Investing"

I personally have physical gold, cash, and heavy short positions....seems a bit pointless to own stocks right now i'd rather play craps at a casino higher reward/risk ratio IMO. stock market just one big casino in the end. Granted the markets are obviously biased to the upside since we deal with fiat/inflationary currencies. Just recently when they were all excited about new dow highs etc they seem to forget in real dollar terms the stock market is still well below its 2000 peak.

[MsDoodahs]

Where is gold in real dollar terms relative to its all time high in 1980?

[tiznow]

Where is gold in real dollar terms relative to its all time high in 1980?


well peaked at 850ish i think in 1980

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001519.html

they say here in 1980 $8.32 was worth $1 in 1913

and 2006 $20.18 was worth $1 in 1913

i'll let you do the math :)

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

Maybe I went head over heels with this thread on buying gold, but I just paid $577.31/ounce for this 24 k nugget on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320147117163

Good price for gold right now, so what's wrong with going this route instead of the above well-advertised sites that charge a premium for coin or bullion at market price?

[Cowlesy]

I went long a round lot of Countrywide on the Friday close just to see how it plays :)