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Nate K
02-27-2008, 11:51 AM
If their intent isn't an eventual secession??

WTF is their goal?? Just to "chill with other freedom lovers??"

Hate to break it to you but you're still going to abide by the federal laws, whether you like it or not.

My point is, for those who support this, that if you want to accomplish taking over local government, you have to consider seceding and not being a part of the Federal government.

pinkmandy
02-27-2008, 01:39 PM
You pretty much answered your own question grassroots. Easy to take over. The largest legislature is in NH. Every 200 or so people have a delegate for the best representation in the country. Delegates get paid $100/yr so people don't run for money/power. They often run unopposed- perfect for us to take over a state legislature. In said legislature we can vote on all kinds of things...like refusing federal funds for certain projects, refusing the ID card, refusing whatever we hold, as a state, to be against our Constitution. We set an example for the rest of the country. Others will follow. RP repubs are ALREADY in the legislature, working with the governor, holding local seats. And...the exec branch in NH is weak. Power rests with the legislature. :)

One law we need to get changed asap is their voting law. Anyone who lives there for 10 days or some nonesense can vote. I think that's what f'ed us during the primaries along with other underhanded methods of cheating.

ItsTime
02-27-2008, 01:43 PM
the freestate project is over rated. They can never take over the New Hampshire government because liberals moving from Mass > than Free Staters by a large number.

But they are trying hard to get Ron Paul Reps into NATIONAL offices as well.

pinkmandy
02-27-2008, 01:46 PM
the freestate project is over rated. They can never take over the New Hampshire government because liberals moving from Mass > than Free Staters by a large number.

But they are trying hard to get Ron Paul Reps into NATIONAL offices as well.

Can you share your data? I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.

ItsTime
02-27-2008, 01:48 PM
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#val=NH
Speaks for itself


Can you share your data? I'd be interested in seeing those numbers.

pinkmandy
02-27-2008, 02:28 PM
I think almost 20,000 people voting for Paul is pretty decent in such a small state.
And how many of the other votes are from real residents and not folks bussed in who met the 10 day requirement to vote?

The FSP is a go. People are there, a lot more on the way. You may not like it but I don't see the benefit of trying to come down on those of us who are involved. Are you doing something better? Do you have a better idea? Are you offering an alternative solution to taking our country back, state by state?

Orgoonian
02-27-2008, 02:29 PM
Something that should be noted,is that the freestaters in NH are mostly activists,and actually making differences slowly,but surely.
There may very well be lots of escapee's from Taxx,but are they active,or vocal?

Check out some of the Ridley reports,very motivational.
I can't wait to get there,and actually do something worth while.

Nate K
02-27-2008, 03:05 PM
You pretty much answered your own question grassroots. Easy to take over. The largest legislature is in NH. Every 200 or so people have a delegate for the best representation in the country. Delegates get paid $100/yr so people don't run for money/power. They often run unopposed- perfect for us to take over a state legislature. In said legislature we can vote on all kinds of things...like refusing federal funds for certain projects, refusing the ID card, refusing whatever we hold, as a state, to be against our Constitution. We set an example for the rest of the country. Others will follow. RP repubs are ALREADY in the legislature, working with the governor, holding local seats. And...the exec branch in NH is weak. Power rests with the legislature. :)

One law we need to get changed asap is their voting law. Anyone who lives there for 10 days or some nonesense can vote. I think that's what f'ed us during the primaries along with other underhanded methods of cheating.

I don't understand the delegate system, can you tell me how it works?

I'm not opposing this project, I'm just a secessionist. And I likely won't fund anyone who wouldn't consider seceding.

Seems radical, but hey, I'm looking long-term.

pinkmandy
02-27-2008, 03:14 PM
Not a problem, Nate. The FSP isn't closed on the notion of secession. That's the "if all else fails" viewpoint.

Every state has state delegates to represent the people at their own state level in their house for shaping and passing state laws. NH has the highest # in the world from what I read with every 200 or so people having someone represent them as a voting block. The people are the best represented there than anywhere else, it's where real change takes place. Now imagine filling up their legislature with RP people. Imagine the changes we could bring to this one state...refusing to acknowledge the feds on so many things. Showing other states that you don't need federal funds or mandates to have educated kids, showing them that if you don't send potheads to prison society won't crumble...setting an example, like Dr. Paul advocates.

I HIGHLY recommend going to www.freestateproject.org and reading the 101 Reasons on the right side of the page. It covers all this and then some. :)

FreeStater
02-27-2008, 03:14 PM
A couple things:

First, the free state project is not anti-secession, there are a lot of people in the Free State project who are in favor of it, it simply isn't the first goal of the Free State Project. The FSP wants to promote a free state, where government is limited. If we can do that without seceeding, fine, if we have to seceed, fine. The Goal is Freedom, most members of the FSP see secession as a potential tool, not a end goal.


Another note about the influx from Taxachusetts. Many of the people coming over are coming because Mass got too liberal, and they want somewhere with a smaller government. Smaller government to someone from Mass may be bigger than someone from NH, but they're on the right track. For example, many of the mass people I've talked to who moved to NH have said things like "I wont vote for anyone in favor of an income tax, if I'd wanted that, I'd've stayed in Mass". A lot (not all) of the mass people are refugees who don't want NH to be New Mass. There are a lot of people from NH who are going to Mass to enjoy socialism as well.

Alex Libman
02-27-2008, 03:21 PM
The value of "chilling with other freedom lovers" should not be underestimated. It will allow libertarian ideas to thrive in an actual community of like-minded people, so even if it fails politically, the FSP could be the think tank in which future ideas will flourish.

Joseph Hart
02-27-2008, 03:23 PM
Recent News: A new gold currency is going to be presented into a new bill hopefully this year in NH. The bill will propose a 10% average of currency circulating within NH. If successful they will increase to a 60% and then eventually 90%. Their main goal is to influence not only the people of this state but to influence the people of other states. Once NH has flourish with gold then it would be the goal further on for New England.

Of course this is only one of many reasons why FreeStateProject is a GREAT movement.

Nate K
02-27-2008, 03:27 PM
Not a problem, Nate. The FSP isn't closed on the notion of secession. That's the "if all else fails" viewpoint.

Every state has state delegates to represent the people at their own state level in their house for shaping and passing state laws. NH has the highest # in the world from what I read with every 200 or so people having someone represent them as a voting block. The people are the best represented there than anywhere else, it's where real change takes place. Now imagine filling up their legislature with RP people. Imagine the changes we could bring to this one state...refusing to acknowledge the feds on so many things. Showing other states that you don't need federal funds or mandates to have educated kids, showing them that if you don't send potheads to prison society won't crumble...setting an example, like Dr. Paul advocates.

I HIGHLY recommend going to www.freestateproject.org and reading the 101 Reasons on the right side of the page. It covers all this and then some. :)

Thanks for the reply. Now, are delegates and state representatives the same thing? I do know that they have 400 state representatives, the highest in the country, and the lowest "rep. to population" ratio (which is good). I made a thread about this (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=124648) and New Hampshire and Montana are the best states we can get.

I can understand their objective then if they're not closed to the option of secession. I'll look into and likely either move there or fund it. ;)

Nate K
02-27-2008, 03:30 PM
Something we should consider - start a state militia.

What a fantastic thought, eh?

FreeStater
02-27-2008, 03:33 PM
Now that I think of it, Secession was a consideration in the selecting of NH:

NH has a seaport, and a border with Canada.

The New England States are also pretty close-knit, even if not politically. (People in Mass and NH make fun of each other, but they like each other much more than anyone from NY) And VT, RI, and Maine have Secessionist movements, though small, as does Mass (although its much less likely).

so if NH secedes, its much more likely to secede successfully (and take other states with it)

Nate K
02-27-2008, 03:38 PM
WOW. After reading this, I'm 100% with you guys.

I was wanting to move south lately because of better farming, but I may just consider moving to NH!!!

I'm going to make this big.

pinkmandy
02-27-2008, 04:59 PM
WOW. After reading this, I'm 100% with you guys.

I was wanting to move south lately because of better farming, but I may just consider moving to NH!!!

I'm going to make this big.

Go Nate!

I totally poo-pooed NH in the beginning, too. ;) Then I started reading and reading and reading. 24 hrs later I realized there is no other place else like it. If it's going to work it will be there imo. I hate cold, I really do. I suck at driving in snow. BUT, I decided I can deal w/a colder winter and a milder summer than I'm used to if it means my kids will experience freedom. Hell yeah we can make a difference.

Oh, yes, delegate is a state rep within the state- not related to the DC crew. :D

porcupine
02-27-2008, 05:01 PM
the freestate project is over rated. They can never take over the New Hampshire government because liberals moving from Mass > than Free Staters by a large number.

But they are trying hard to get Ron Paul Reps into NATIONAL offices as well.

You misjudge us entirely. National politics, for the most part, is not our focus. It's a lost cause. We want to take back one state.

You're wrong about the Mass immigrants. Most of them are low-tax types who are sick of the high taxes in Mass.

The great thing about NH is that the government is so split up (in order to keep any branch from becoming powerful) and the government is so localized that there are tons of offices you can seek. Most elections are uncontested (meaning you file and you win). It's very easy to move and get elected and when a few Free Staters do that, you make a huge difference.

Another example is the Grafton Town Meeting where there were 6 free staters that were able to vote down tens of thousands of dollars worth of city spending...just the 6 of them made a big difference.

This is just the beginning.

Does the state you're living in have Real ID? Does the state you're living in require car insurance? I know you're taxes aren't lower than NH. How many freedom loving people do you hang out with and will you and they be doing anything once this election is over? If you did, would it make a difference in your state? What we're doing is making a huge difference in New Hampshire.

porcupine
02-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Nate, check out http://www.republicofnh.org/

Keep in mind, the Free State Project takes NO POSITIONS on anything politically. Its individual members do that. All the FSP does is unite liberty lovers in one place where we can finally reach a critical mass.


Oh and I edited to add this: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3242717

It's not New Hampshire, but it'll give you an idea of the movements in New England.

porcupine
02-27-2008, 05:11 PM
The value of "chilling with other freedom lovers" should not be underestimated. It will allow libertarian ideas to thrive in an actual community of like-minded people, so even if it fails politically, the FSP could be the think tank in which future ideas will flourish.

That's right. Movements don't start without communities to incubate them. You need that critical mass before good ideas can get a chance and libertarians have never had that...yet ;)

Cleaner44
02-27-2008, 05:12 PM
Right now I am more inclined to go to a Republican state like Montana where i can live free and we don't have to battle a large group of socialists.

porcupine
02-27-2008, 05:25 PM
Right now I am more inclined to go to a Republican state like Montana where i can live free and we don't have to battle a large group of socialists.

What kind of socialism are you talking about??! NH has the lowest level of taxes of ANY STATE in the country. Even their public schools are almost completely locally controlled (although that's starting to change, but not without a fight from us). Their DMV isn't even open five days a week for Christ's sake!! WHAT SOCIALISM?! Yeah, there's some, like there is in all the states, but not "large groups."

I also recently found out you can walk into a legislative hearing open carrying a gun...no metal detectors, no laws against it. Cool.

pinkmandy
02-28-2008, 08:59 PM
You can carry a gun anywhere except in a courthouse, right? Except on private property (or fed buildings I assume) where the owners forbid it.

porcupine
02-29-2008, 01:53 PM
You can carry a gun anywhere except in a courthouse, right? Except on private property (or fed buildings I assume) where the owners forbid it.

Yeah, you can even carry a gun into the legislative building. Recently, a state representative tried to change that. About 200 people showed up to the hearing on the bill and she was the only one there supporting her own bill (and in a 400-member legislature, she was the only sponsor). Needless to say, it failed. That's freedom.

Here's part 1 of a 3-part series of citizen reporting about the hearing: http://youtube.com/watch?v=GZOQN3HwRC8

LibertiORDeth
02-29-2008, 09:25 PM
Liberty Island Forum is now online. The link is:

http://libertyisland.netfreehost.com

Orgoonian
03-01-2008, 02:30 AM
Interesting reading about past attempts for an island paradise.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_7_36/ai_n7584301/pg_1

WV Freedom Fighter
03-01-2008, 02:59 AM
I was wanting to move south lately because of better farming, but I may just consider moving to NH!!!


Yinz better get out of Da'Burgh...all freedom is now gone there. :(

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=125257

pinkmandy
03-01-2008, 09:33 AM
Interesting reading about past attempts for an island paradise.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1568/is_7_36/ai_n7584301/pg_1


Thanks for that article! Grafton is more than likely where we will be.

I wonder- when shtf in the US do you think NH folks will look to the porcs for leadership?

MysteryGuest
03-01-2008, 05:07 PM
The value of "chilling with other freedom lovers" should not be underestimated. It will allow libertarian ideas to thrive in an actual community of like-minded people, so even if it fails politically, the FSP could be the think tank in which future ideas will flourish.

Here here! I couldn't agree more! With so many different movements, NH, Vermont, RP, Libertarian Party, Grannies, and others, I think having some central places just to connect and trade ideas with other liberty minded folks is necessary. I think it's an important step in bringing this movement to a lot of different people.

spacehabitats
03-01-2008, 07:02 PM
Has anyone considered the social dynamics and psychological implications of the Free State Project (FSP)?
History is full of examples of like-minded people gathering together to form Utopian communities within and among "ordinary" communities. Unfortunately the locals typically perceive them as either a bunch of crackpots or as a threat to their community (or both). Even those that might normally be open to libertarian ideals might see the FSP as an "invasion".

Don't believe me? Study the history of the Mormon church. It wasn't just the theology that people were reacting to, it was the very presence of a cohesive but "alien" subculture in their midst that caused the Governor of Missouri to issue an extermination order.

More recently, here in Iowa, the Transcendental meditation movement bought a defunct college and formed the Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa. Again a significant number of practitioners of meditation moved to that small community. Although they are on the whole wonderful citizens (intelligent, clean, creative, and industrious) they have remained more of a fringe subculture rather than merging with the original community. They are tolerated, but then they haven't tried to take over the Iowa legislature either.

I am afraid that the FSP will turn out to be a public relations nightmare. If the intent is to assimilate with the local communities and through education, gentle persuasion, and example convert the native population to libertarian ideals, wonderful. But at the least hint of coercion or confrontation, the original citizens are going to rise up and unite to try to drive you out of the state.

I know it is lonely, but the answer is to convert our neighbors; not huddle together in little libertarian islands. Come to think of it, that is exactly what the CFR would like us to do. That would certainly insure that we would remain forever lunatic fringe instead of a revolution.

Orgoonian
03-01-2008, 07:32 PM
Has anyone considered the social dynamics and psychological implications of the Free State Project (FSP)?
History is full of examples of like-minded people gathering together to form Utopian communities within and among "ordinary" communities. Unfortunately the locals typically perceive them as either a bunch of crackpots or as a threat to their community (or both). Even those that might normally be open to libertarian ideals might see the FSP as an "invasion".

Don't believe me? Study the history of the Mormon church. It wasn't just the theology that people were reacting to, it was the very presence of a cohesive but "alien" subculture in their midst that caused the Governor of Missouri to issue an extermination order.

More recently, here in Iowa, the Transcendental meditation movement bought a defunct college and formed the Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa. Again a significant number of practitioners of meditation moved to that small community. Although they are on the whole wonderful citizens (intelligent, clean, creative, and industrious) they have remained more of a fringe subculture rather than merging with the original community. They are tolerated, but then they haven't tried to take over the Iowa legislature either.

I am afraid that the FSP will turn out to be a public relations nightmare. If the intent is to assimilate with the local communities and through education, gentle persuasion, and example convert the native population to libertarian ideals, wonderful. But at the least hint of coercion or confrontation, the original citizens are going to rise up and unite to try to drive you out of the state.

I know it is lonely, but the answer is to convert our neighbors; not huddle together in little libertarian islands. Come to think of it, that is exactly what the CFR would like us to do. That would certainly insure that we would remain forever lunatic fringe instead of a revolution.

Interesting examples of religious movements,which are always viewed with trepidation.That is not to say any other type of movement is not frowned upon by the natives,however religious,and political movements are totally different beasts.
In most cases the demographics of the region determine the outcome.

While researching the FSP,i did note that at the beginning,there was a vocal resistance to the porcupines.That was to be expected,and anticipated. It is all but gone now.A little bit of study should allay anyone fears.

tpreitzel
03-01-2008, 10:28 PM
I'm not opposing this project, I'm just a secessionist. And I likely won't fund anyone who wouldn't consider seceding.

Seems radical, but hey, I'm looking long-term.

Smart thinking. Work within the system, but plan your escape route as much as possible.

mediahasyou
03-01-2008, 10:34 PM
Our power is in groups. Once others see the results of New Hampshire then they will come. It's already happening. Just look at the mass people coming over to NH. Something like the Free State Project is hard to ignore. People are starting to get jelous around here. And others see us leading the way, and now they follow suit in their own states. It's wonderful.

Pauls' Revere
03-01-2008, 10:59 PM
Liberty Island Forum is now online. The link is:

http://libertyisland.netfreehost.com

Why not purchase a used oil platform?

porcupine
03-02-2008, 12:27 AM
Has anyone considered the social dynamics and psychological implications of the Free State Project (FSP)?
History is full of examples of like-minded people gathering together to form Utopian communities within and among "ordinary" communities. Unfortunately the locals typically perceive them as either a bunch of crackpots or as a threat to their community (or both).

Well, if New Hampshire natives view us as crackpots or threats, they're hiding it well. Free Staters have been elected to about 20 public offices by the people of New Hampshire. And it's only the beginning ;)

Oh sure, some of the liberals are freaked, but it's fun to watch and their numbers aren't high enough to do anything about it.


I know it is lonely, but the answer is to convert our neighbors; not huddle together in little libertarian islands. Come to think of it, that is exactly what the CFR would like us to do. That would certainly insure that we would remain forever lunatic fringe instead of a revolution.

You're right. Free Staters have, according to Dr. Jason Sorens' research, been successful at doing just that. What many porcupines are doing is amplifying their voice by starting media outlets and advocacy groups (NH Common Sense, New Hampshire Liberty Alliance are two examples). The New Hampshire Liberty Alliance has been particularly successful (and is augmented by the help of many New Hampshire libertarians re-energized by the infusion of activists energy). It's the only organization of its type that I'm aware of.

spacehabitats
03-04-2008, 12:45 PM
I really do hope for the best. I think that an example of a successful libertarian community (the larger the better) would be a great asset to our nation as a whole.
What the CFR fears most is a highly visible "control group". In any type of grand social experiment (such as the wholesale destruction of liberty on a global scale) the last thing that the global fascists want is a free society that will be compared to their socialist failures.

In fact, you do realize that is a crucial part of THEIR plan? There can be no options:

All schools must be integrated, even if they must bus white kids to schools where their test scores plummet.

All currency must be fiat, else people will gravitate toward a sound dollar and use their Federal Reserve notes for toilet paper.

Health care must conform to federally mandated protocols, using FDA-approved drugs, and be reimbursed at Medicare specified rates.

Etc.

I do hope that you are prepared for the sabotage that will come should you become more obviously and visibly successful. I am not sure how it will come. Probably at the hands of infiltrators claiming to be FSP libertarians but acting like idiots.

porcupine
03-04-2008, 02:29 PM
I really do hope for the best. I think that an example of a successful libertarian community (the larger the better) would be a great asset to our nation as a whole.
What the CFR fears most is a highly visible "control group". In any type of grand social experiment (such as the wholesale destruction of liberty on a global scale) the last thing that the global fascists want is a free society that will be compared to their socialist failures.

In fact, you do realize that is a crucial part of THEIR plan? There can be no options:

All schools must be integrated, even if they must bus white kids to schools where their test scores plummet.

All currency must be fiat, else people will gravitate toward a sound dollar and use their Federal Reserve notes for toilet paper.

Health care must conform to federally mandated protocols, using FDA-approved drugs, and be reimbursed at Medicare specified rates.

Etc.

I do hope that you are prepared for the sabotage that will come should you become more obviously and visibly successful. I am not sure how it will come. Probably at the hands of infiltrators claiming to be FSP libertarians but acting like idiots.


So when are you moving then? ;)

soapmistress
03-10-2008, 09:30 AM
My first thought about the Free State Project was that it would have been something I'd done in another lifetime if I wasn't married with 3 kids and was just on my own to do whatever I wanted. I mentioned it briefly to my husband and he actually already knew what I was talking about.

He said "see if they have a branch (at his conmpany) that I can transfer to. I'm down!"

Now I'm just amazed, sitting here thinking that this is actually a possibility. How exciting!

hawks4ronpaul
03-10-2008, 09:41 AM
Hello. Can an NH expert comment on this:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=126318

Thank you.

spacehabitats
03-10-2008, 12:55 PM
As a doctor who is a little too old to want to start a new practice from scratch but too young (and poor) to retire, I'm afraid it will have to be a few years. Are you sure we couldn't start a new branch in S.W. Iowa?

Aratus
03-11-2008, 10:49 AM
i'm a tad further south. traditionally N.H has had LESS taxes and more
participation in gov't on the local level. admittedly in New England,
getting a legal quorum in a town meeting during a year when there
are no hot under the collar issues causes local selectmen to lock the
doors on the happy few who gather if they be only the few, just so all
town matters can come legally under concideration and be voted on.
A direct access for civic minded people is at the core of this process.
people who grow up under a system where the county level gov't is strong,
pervasive and effective often don't realize that the annual town meeting is
where 90% of the major decisions in N.H are made. counties are also often
an afterthought in the Bay State, even though we in Taxachusetts are
cognicent how much larger by comparison our state gov't apparatus is...


If quite a few Ron Paul people now move up to N.H and start to veto
excessive spending by NEW HAMPSHIRE's standards, and sloooowwwly
develop a speech pattern like the up state local twang, eventually you
just might be thought to be a frugal fiscally sound rock ribbed Robert Frost
readin' .... Yankee ... though this might take a while. my late father, who
was a mix of the orange and the green, who was totally irish, took until his
70th year of life to be thought a "townie" in the town he grew up in from
early childhood onwards. this in his twilight years gave him such a feeling
of belonging when he heard said "we old timers have got to stick together..."
he was told this by a high school chum of his! yankees often don't publically emote
and are quite private, and have wry dry wit that takes new yorkers several
summers to fathom. people add an "H" to words in boston and hyannis
as they drop the ending consonant "R" which is unlike worcester and westward,
where people elongate and over-pronounce the "R" sound, the same way someone
from minnesota does. ...so relax, study quietly one's surroundings and realize
the old rugged individualist rural upcountry Yankee is a dyin' breed. often doomed
somewhat by our mass media culture of the hour. there are those places where
people farm and dairy, there are places where maple syrup is still tapped...
not everything in the "live free or die" state has succumbed to strip malls
and bedroom suburbs. truely you can live in an 1850s or 1900s house for real...
keep in mind, it often does snow in the winter... it also sleets and rains too...then.
the etherial image of wise simplicity is at the core of our regional poet's poet Robert Frost.
THIS BEING SAID, WHERE THE WISEST PRECAUTION IN MIND's EYE IS OUR UNPREDICTABLE
WEATHER... I SAY "GOOD LUCK" TO THE NEW ARRIVALs! AND PLEASE DO KEEP IN MIND
if if if if if if if ONLY 100 to 200 OF YOU SHOW UP AS MARCH STARTS A THAW...THE WISE
SELECTMEN OFTEN DO LOCK DOORs! ...ITs a LOCAL CUSTOM! ....SO GOOD LUCK ONE AND ALL!
Eventually upon voting you actually can go home! Being self determined is a Yankee chore and joy, traditionally!

porcupine
03-11-2008, 10:53 AM
Are you sure we couldn't start a new branch in S.W. Iowa?

You already have one. It's called your local libertarian party. Go get involved with them, see how futile and fruitless their efforts are and then join us in New Hampshire for some real change surrounded by real activists living in real freedom.