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retrorepublican
08-15-2007, 10:57 AM
>Hey Mr. -----,
>
>Hope your summer is going well. I came across the following article on
>education at Ron Paul's Texas Straight Talk column and wanted to know
>what your opinion was as a teacher.

Summer's going well, but too quickly.

I don't know enough to have an opinion about a lot of the article, but a
lot of it strikes me as something that could have been written anytime in
the last 100 years. Everybody likes to complain about schools -- not
without cause, unfortunately. At the same time, reading between the
lines, complaining about schools is also a way to complain about young
people. . . something that always appeals to older voters :-)


> "After more than 40 years of massive federal education spending,
>the inescapable conclusion is that federal control is failing. By any
>objective standards, our public schools are worse than ever.

What objective standards is he talking about? It's not obvious to me that
schools are better or worse than when I was a kid. Probably schools in
distressed cities are worse now, but the cities themselves are worse too.

>Policies
>regarding curricula and discipline, once set by local teachers and
>principals working closely with parents, are now established in
>Washington.

I don't know of any discipline policies set in Washington. Perhaps he's
thinking about interrogation techniques?
As far as curriculum, I believe it's state by state. No Child Left Behind
was an attempt to bring some minimum standards. Educators seem to have
mixed opinions of NCLB.

> Politically correct sensitivity training substitutes for rigorous
>coursework in liberal arts or practical vocations. Children learn phony
>self-esteem, rather than the importance of productive achievement.
>Teachers are prohibited from maintaining discipline.

He's blaming this on the government? Is it the government that makes
every kid on every soccer team receive a gigantic trophy every year?

>As a result, our
>high school graduates enter adulthood less educated and less prepared
for
>responsibility than previous generations. Obviously, ever-increasing
>federal control over our schools has failed the nation's children and
>lowered educational standards.

Whenever anyone says "obviously", you need to sit up straight
and listen carefully. One could also argue that federal involvement has
kept the bottom from dropping out completely.

> Yet while the need for new policies in Washington has never been
>greater, the approach unfortunately remains the same: more federal
>spending and more federal control. Last week Congress passed
legislation
>that massively increases funding for failed Education department
>programs. Although the bill was widely hailed as bipartisan, the truth
is
>that it contained mostly liberal measures promoted by Democratic
members
>of Congress. Key Republican provisions such as school vouchers and
>unconditional flexibility for local school districts were not included.
>Regardless of the party stamp, the bill clearly represents a
>big-spending, big government plan that will only serve to further
>entrench the wasteful federal education monopoly.
> The bill increases the Education department budget by a whopping 22
>percent- more than even the liberals had hoped. The $9.2 billion
increase
>brings the total department budget to more than $50 billion. No one
>mentions the high tax rates we all pay to finance this spending. We
must
>remember that every dollar parents send to Washington is a dollar they
>don't have to spend directly on their children's education. Most
>education tax dollars sent to Washington fund the federal bureaucracy;
>far less than half of each dollar is ever returned to local schools.

This appears to be untrue -- at least, it's contradicted by the US Dept of
Ed web site:
http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/role.html
Here's a quote from there:
....... . . while ED's programs and responsibilities have grown
substantially
over the years, the Department itself has not. In fact, with a planned
fiscal year 2007 level of 4,177, ED's staff is nearly 45 percent below the
7,528 employees who administered Federal education programs in several
different agencies in 1980, when the Department was created. These staff
reductions, along with a wide range of management improvements, have
helped limit administrative costs to approximately 2 percent of the
Department's budget. This means that ED delivers about 98 cents on the
dollar in education assistance to States, school districts, postsecondary
institutions, and students.

More
>importantly, federal school dollars come with strings attached. The
more
>money we give to education bureaucrats, the more power they have to
>dictate how local schools are run. When federal spending increases,
local
>schools are forced to do whatever it takes to get their share, even if
>this means adopting one size fits all policies mandated in Washington.
In
>other words, federal money is used as a club to force schools to
>surrender more and more of their decision making authority to
Washington.
> I believe that parents and teachers know what is best for their
>schools at the local level. The key to reforming public education in
>America is returning local control back to our public schools. I have
>introduced three education tax credit bills which keep more tax dollars
>and more decision making power at the local level. The first provides
>parents with a $3,000 per child credit for educational expenses,
>including tuition, books, computers, and tutors. The second allows
>parents or individuals to claim up to $3,000 in tax credits for cash or
>in-kind donations to schools and scholarship programs. The third bill
>grants all teachers a $1,000 tax credit, effectively raising their
>salaries without spending tax dollars.

This really bugs me. A tax credit without a corresponding spending cut is
increasing the deficit. That's spending tax dollars.

>All three of these measures share
>the same goal of insuring that parents, rather than federal education
>bureaucrats, decide how their children are educated.
> Congress never seems to learn that Washington does not know what is
>best for kids. While both parties claim to stand for education, their
>bureaucratic approach should no longer be tolerated by American
education
>consumers. American parents will spend generously on their children's
>education, but Congress must be willing to lower tax burdens and ease
the
>federal stranglehold on education that has destroyed our public
schools."

My overall impression of this is that he's painting the picture that he
thinks his base wants to hear -- not very helpful if you want to actually
improve things. I'd be more impressed with this if he went after the
teacher's unions. . . lots of good targets there!

Cheers,
Mr. ----

How should I respond?

MsDoodahs
08-15-2007, 11:03 AM
I don't have time to read the whole thing but here's a link I'm spreading around and about today:

http://www.fee.org/publications/notes/notes/TheGreatest.asp

You may find some good stuff you can use in that article.

:)

dmitchell
08-15-2007, 11:04 AM
Maybe you should just thank him for his opinion and let it be.

Mr. White
08-15-2007, 11:05 AM
I got my BS in Secondary Education. She's very much up on many of her responses. If I were you I would simply point out that he is aware that he can't accomplish everything he wants to immediately and that transition will be hard.

I would then point her to his stance on foreign policy as her criticism of interrogation techniques struck me as a passionate criticism of the patriot act et al.

Any teacher is going to be resistant to Rons message because we are the ones who will have to teach the kids during the difficult transition. Education can't stop while things are being fixed.

Sematary
08-15-2007, 11:10 AM
You COULD respond with the obvious answer - the constitution. There is nothing in the constitution which bestows upon the federal government the ability to involve itself in education.
You could also mention local educators and the states they reside in are going to know better what their students require more than bureaucrats in Washington and that because of Federal intervention, children are required to learn based on standardized testing rather than giving the teachers more freedom to teach in the manner they feel is most beneficial to the children.

Ultimately, the responsibility for educating children SHOULD lie with the parents and the teachers instead of with a distant bureaucracy that doesn't understand, nor care about the needs of children at the local level or on an individual basis. The money could much better be spent if the taxes were going to the locality rather than the federal government where bureaucratic waste and distance from the problem devalues the dollars which are being sent there.

ZackM
08-15-2007, 11:11 AM
Watch this video - John Stossel - Stupid in America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA

I think this does a good job of pointing out the advantages of free market approaches to education problems. It discusses Belgium's publically funded free market approach which I found pretty impressive.

Without federal control on the system, state's would be allowed to implement programs like this. The end result, ironically, is less $ spent per child and teachers getting paid more - it's amazing what a little competition will do to weed out the fat...

Kuldebar
08-15-2007, 11:17 AM
This is an interesting and telling read from John Taylor Gatto who as a teacher was named New York City Teacher of the Year on three occasions.

Underground History of American Education (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/)
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/images/3rdcover_sm.jpg


Looking backward on a thirty-year teaching career full of rewards and prizes, somehow I can’t completely believe that I spent my time on earth institutionalized; I can’t believe that centralized schooling is allowed to exist at all as a gigantic indoctrination and sorting machine, robbing people of their children. Did it really happen? Was this my life? God help me.

School is a religion. Without understanding the holy mission aspect you’re certain to misperceive what takes place as a result of human stupidity or venality or even class warfare. All are present in the equation, it’s just that none of these matter very much—even without them school would move in the same direction. Dewey’s Pedagogic Creed statement of 1897 gives you a clue to the zeitgeist:

Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order and the securing of the right social growth. In this way the teacher is always the prophet of the true God and the usherer in of the true kingdom of heaven.

What is "proper" social order? What does "right" social growth look like? If you don’t know you’re like me, not like John Dewey who did, or the Rockefellers, his patrons, who did, too.

Somehow out of the industrial confusion which followed the Civil War, powerful men and dreamers became certain what kind of social order America needed, one very like the British system we had escaped a hundred years earlier. This realization didn’t arise as a product of public debate as it should have in a democracy, but as a distillation of private discussion. Their ideas contradicted the original American charter but that didn’t disturb them. They had a stupendous goal in mind—the rationalization of everything. The end of unpredictable history; its transformation into dependable order.

Slugg
08-15-2007, 11:22 AM
Read "Four Centuries of American Eduaction" By David Barton
or
"The Intentional Dumbing Down of America" (I forgot who wrote it, but she worked for the Department of Education for 20 years).

His basic stance on education is that your local property tax pays for education, the federal government has absolutely NO jurisdiction there.

As far as 98 cents of every dollar goes to local schools, the website says that 98% go to the state. In theory, the state is supposed to disseminate the money. Some states are better than others, but the point being that few schools get the money they are supposed to receive. This is an inherent problem with top-down directing.


I'm sure you understand how to handle the "He wants to increase the deficit" argument..it's Ron Paul...he's never voted for an unbalanced budget. He wants to cut spending so much it would take a book larger than the IRS tax code (which would stop being printed) to list.

As far as the self esteem issue, "affirmative action" and "political correctness" has been reiterated by the Federal Government on numerous occasions. Everything from corporal punishment to homework has been discussed on the national level. He is saying it's none of the governments business.

You might want to do some research. I looked up the average SAT score in the United States and it dropped 100 points after the creation of the Department of Education...it has never recovered.

Also remind him that major changes in education would be on the local level. So men/women like him can make monumental changes. No longer would there need to be a teachers union (cause they could lobby their own district..instead of Capital Hill).

Dr. Paul is advocating less government control over education. And while the Department of Education does not make school districts answer to them directly, they make the state education departments answer to them...in turn, the local schools answer to the state.


Remind him that the federal government is the one who is debating the creationism/evolution/intelligent design thing.

And that the federal government has, on multiple occasions, stepped in and told states which books they could and could not use for teaching. These things may or may not have happened in your state; but they have happened none-the-less.

You may also remind him that by removing the Department of Education will allow MORE money to reach MOST schools. This means pay raises and better books/lab equipment/ etc....

Either way, do some research on our education system. Read our average SAT scores and our average ACT scores. Compare them to 100 years ago (or even 50)

Watch the trend. The point being, "More government doesn't work."

4Horsemen
08-15-2007, 11:28 AM
Please send this link to your teacher: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
Lets see his response to this.

Ninja Homer
08-15-2007, 12:13 PM
Getting rid of the DoE is one of the things that most people don't get right away. It's part of Ron Paul's bigger plan, and they probably won't understand how it will work until they understand the big picture.

One of the biggest problems with government controlled education, aside from being a big unefficient bureaucracy, is that then the government has the power to teach the children whatever they want. They can control how and what the children learn, and even rewrite history. I don't know if the government is doing this now, but they should not have the power to do this.

Take a look at the 10th plank of the communist manifesto: "Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production."

There's more here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/keller5.html), towards the bottom.

Kuldebar
08-15-2007, 12:17 PM
Russ Kick:
"In other words, the captains of industry and government explicitly wanted an educational system that would maintain social order by teaching us just enough to get by but not enough so that we could think for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately."

And that's exactly what we got...

lucius
08-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Russ Kick:
"In other words, the captains of industry and government explicitly wanted an educational system that would maintain social order by teaching us just enough to get by but not enough so that we could think for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately."

And that's exactly what we got...

Well put and unfortunately very true. Here is a link to Gatto's book, read the whole book online here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/prologue.htm

To retrorepulican: don't be the one, let it drop. Read Gatto's book, become incensed, know that you are serving time and take charge of your own education.

d'anconia
08-15-2007, 01:15 PM
Mind me asking if the teacher works at a public or private school?

AnotherAmerican
08-15-2007, 02:01 PM
Russ Kick:
".... not enough so that we could think for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately."


Yeah, like, some guy somewhere, like, said something. I mean, it's like, you know, whatever. :p

---
The only thing the Department of Education really does is:

1) Collect tax revenue that would have gone directly from localities to their schools, and instead siphon it into Ed, which then gives (some of) that money back in the form of "block grants." These have strings attached, forcing local Districts to spend money on things they don't want or need (*cough* abstinence-only *cough*), and preventing them from spending money on things they do need.

2) Subsidize "student loans" for higher education, allowing tuition costs to run up past the natural market's price ceiling. In this manner, Ed converts what was traditionally an instrument of class mobility for the student's benefit, into an instrument of debt-slavery for Sallie Mae's benefit.

retrorepublican
08-15-2007, 02:07 PM
Mind me asking if the teacher works at a public or private school?

It's public but it's a vocational school. They call it a "governor's school."

Roxi
08-15-2007, 02:11 PM
Getting rid of the DoE is one of the things that most people don't get right away. It's part of Ron Paul's bigger plan, and they probably won't understand how it will work until they understand the big picture.

One of the biggest problems with government controlled education, aside from being a big unefficient bureaucracy, is that then the government has the power to teach the children whatever they want. They can control how and what the children learn, and even rewrite history. I don't know if the government is doing this now, but they should not have the power to do this.

Take a look at the 10th plank of the communist manifesto: "Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production."

There's more here (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/keller5.html), towards the bottom.



exactly dont you remember them forcing us to vote even if both candidates were BS.... don't you remember the propaganda films they forced us to watch....

wizardwatson
08-15-2007, 02:16 PM
I also don't have the time or inclination to read all these posts, but isn't she basically saying "feds aren't the cause of all problems, and they have very little effect"? Rather than how the article seems to paint RP as saying Fed isn't working, ie is harming state education?

Well then doesn't this mean that Federal spending and beauracracy in public education is at the very least useless and wasteful?

d'anconia
08-15-2007, 02:57 PM
It's public but it's a vocational school. They call it a "governor's school."

Case closed.

jjschless
08-15-2007, 04:07 PM
I have several friends who are teachers at public schools and most of them are so upset with the budget crunch that seems to never subside. A kindergarden teacher had to buy her own supplies to have the kids make some holiday cards to give to their parents. It's not like she can afford even a modestly comfortable lifestyle as it is.

Sean
08-15-2007, 04:43 PM
I work in public schools and can tell you for a fact that the federal government requires all kinds of nonsense mainly through the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. This law had good intentions for truly disabled kids, but has resulted in chaos in the classroom. Otherwise normal kids are often classified with some sort of medical problem and their bad behavior gets legal protection. This allows certain students to be disruptive in the classroom and then it takes hundreds of incidents before the school thinks they have enough evidence to take action to remove the student. Many times these kids parents will excuse this behavior and then you have a walking nightmare with guaranteed lawsuits against all of his/her teachers. I have seen it many times.

cac1963
08-15-2007, 04:55 PM
I work in public schools and can tell you for a fact that the federal government requires all kinds of nonsense mainly through the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. This law had good intentions for truly disabled kids, but has resulted in chaos in the classroom. Otherwise normal kids are often classified with some sort of medical problem and their bad behavior gets legal protection. This allows certain students to be disruptive in the classroom and then it takes hundreds of incidents before the school thinks they have enough evidence to take action to remove the student. Many times these kids parents will excuse this behavior and then you have a walking nightmare with guaranteed lawsuits against all of his/her teachers. I have seen it many times.

Isn't that what Bush's mental health screening plan will address? Isn't that now or soon being implemented by the ED?

The mental health screening plan is The no-child-left-undrugged Act.

Sean
08-15-2007, 05:22 PM
I am not familiar with Bush's plan. I am just pointing out the law of unintended consequences. Federal government passes a law and it causes major problems. These students will behave this way whether or not they are on meds. Federal law has removed commonsense from the schools. By the way I have read John Taylor Gatto and he is pretty much right on. Some of the stuff that goes on is unbelievable.