Doomsday Soothsayers

[HammerDR]

In nearly every thread there is one--a guy or gal that declares the end of the nation if Ron Paul isn't elected. They claim that national Armageddon is upon us and that it is upon us to save the entire nation from such great peril.

While a romantic and heroic notion, we do not need to save this nation. This melodramatic response is such a common streak on these forums and throughout the Ron Paul support base that, at times, I feel like I'm caught in the wind of some daytime Soap Opera. However, that does not mean that I am disgusted or despise these fortune tellers.

There is some truth to what they say. This country is headed in the wrong direction--even the scientific polls confirm the general sentiment. People are angry at Washington and are, in general, fed up with the Congress and the Presidential office overreaching its power and trying to control our lives. The government gets bigger by the day. The Federal Reserve has a firm grasp on key aspects of the economy and they seem to be inventing new ways to screw up. The President now has the ability to wiretap any international call without reason--clearly a breach of our rights.

But, if Ron Paul is not elected to the Oval Office (which, I have the utmost confidence that he will!), doom is not at hand! The people of the United States are incredibly resilient. In fact, the last time that the Federal Reserve screwed our economy (and I mean really screwed it up) was in the 1930s. The people persevered and, while it wasn't a pleasant time, we got through it. War, poverty and a great many other situations may be upon us--but it will not be to the ruin of the United States. That is the beauty of ourselves and the thing that we should take pride in. We, like our ideas of freedom and liberty, are hearty and strong.

So, what happens if Ron Paul does not get elected? Did we fail? First, I want to say that this is purely theoretical since Ron Paul WILL win the nomination and the White House. However, hypothetically, if he does not get elected President, we have no lost.

Our message is powerful. Our message is strong. Our message has the impassioned support of thousands of people. We have shown that we are more dedicated, active and we have more supporters than our "Religious Right" counterparts. We have shown that we can raise money. We have shown that we can energize a campaign. We have shown that we rally behind our candidate so strongly that calling us a mere "base" would be an understatement.

In the future, after the Paul Presidency, the national primary race of the GOP will have top contenders from the neo-con tradition and others from the Ron Paul tradition. If Paul is not elected, Paul would be the "new" Goldwater--he would transform the GOP's race in the next 4 years. The quicker turnaround is because of the active base that now exists and candidates that do not tap into that base do so at the detriment of their campaign and party.

In conclusion, the soothsayers should calm themselves. We have a great message that is going to transform the GOP and the country. Take pride in that message and look forward to our brighter future.

[Tn...Andy]

ahahaaaaaaaaaa.......I'd take more comfort in your message if we had more than a couple hundred years of a somewhat free country versus thousands of years of human history where tyranny ruled.

Today's tyrants are simply slicker about how they operate....they've figured out serfs are more productive when they have the illusion of a good life and freedom.

[mrchubbs]

Couldn't agree with you more. Great stuff.

[mdh]

I disagree. I feel that it's almost certain that this country will slide further towards absolute militarism and authoritarian fascism if Dr. Paul is not elected. Gravel or Kucinich might be OK, too, but Paul has a much better chance of winning the GOP nomination than either of those guys have of winning the DNC nod.

You point to the great depression of the 1930-era as an example of US citizens continuing through tough times. I see this as invalid based on the fact that the US has been subjected to fascist incrementalism since around 1909. In 1930, they were just barely getting off the ground with it. Now? Times are much different. We have far less liberty than ever before. The police state, the surveillance state, the database state have all continued to grow in size, scope, and power.

I don't simply worry, in fact, that we may fall into this final pit of evil if Dr. Paul fails - I also worry that something like martial law may be declared, and an election may not even happen, if we end up getting too close to winning.

[Slugg]

I don't simply worry, in fact, that we may fall into this final pit of evil if Dr. Paul fails - I also worry that something like martial law may be declared, and an election may not even happen, if we end up getting too close to winning.

Nah, their using Diebold machines.

[HammerDR]

ahahaaaaaaaaaa.......I'd take more comfort in your message if we had more than a couple hundred years of a somewhat free country versus thousands of years of human history where tyranny ruled.

Today's tyrants are simply slicker about how they operate....they've figured out serfs are more productive when they have the illusion of a good life and freedom.

And you would suggest that Hilary, while a cold-hearted bitch that'll say anything to get elected, is, in fact, an evil dictator?

Please, be more reasonable. Be more positive! The grassroots effort needs to grow, to evolve, to mature. It has happened to some extend--but instead of being melodramatic political infants, we should be more calm, poised and intelligent. Doing so only makes us look better. I'm not saying you should wear a suit--you should just realize that running naked around a baseball park just gets people to laugh at you.

[Tn...Andy]

Hillary is simply a pawn of the real powers that be.....as are any of the candidate running with the exception of Ron Paul....which is WHY he has my whole hearted support, efforts and all the cash I can spare him.

As to running naked in the park, the fact you don't want to see my backside does not negate the fact it is still there.

To cuddle my teddy bear and say "everything will be alright" because everything has been alright in my past memories is simply unrealistic, IMHO.

I would agree that time wasted arguing about the future if Ron Paul is not elected is probably time wasted.....but then, I didn't start the thread :D

[constituent]

hilary evil dictator?

naah, not evil... benevolent

yea, benevolent dictator, that's more like it!

[HammerDR]

The reason why I addressed this is because someone feels a need to declare our impending doom. Not to be mean, but MDH is one such supporter.

Like I said, I do see their points but they go too far.

As for Hilary being a pawn... she'd run the country like Bill Clinton did. She'd be slightly more hawkish and expand the power of the executive even more. She'd keep us in the unwinnable war while "pulling out." She'd expand social programs. She'd probably be able to keep the economy out of total ruin with some help from Bill (who is an economic genius, to be frank). She would not be Kim Jong Il, American-styled. She'd just be another post-New Deal president. While that is the wrong direction, I'm not particularly frightened.

Remember, fear is what got us into Iraq. Live without fear and you are truly free :)

[disinter]

I think it is funny how people predict that socialism, tyranny, dictatorship etc are always "Coming soon". If you actually look at what any of these things really mean, we are experiencing them as I speak... right here, in the United States.

Why does everyone ignore the obvious?

[constituent]

disinter...

i don't think that they do... maybe some, but not many around here.

[disinter]

disinter...

i don't think that they do... maybe some, but not many around here.

True, but the general public is another story.

[HammerDR]

That's it right there! The negativity!

While I agree that the federal government is completely out of control, I do not think that we live in a socialist society or a tyrannical! society. Psuedo-socialist, perhaps. Overbearing, centralized government, perhaps. However, most people would look at England and declare it a "free" society. They have large, centralized government. That doesn't mean that a meteor is somehow going to fall on London. It is an ineffective, poor use of government. But, it does not spell the end of the United States!

[disinter]

That's it right there! The negativity!

While I agree that the federal government is completely out of control, I do not think that we live in a socialist society or a tyrannical! society. Psuedo-socialist, perhaps. Overbearing, centralized government, perhaps. However, most people would look at England and declare it a "free" society. They have large, centralized government. That doesn't mean that a meteor is somehow going to fall on London. It is an ineffective, poor use of government. But, it does not spell the end of the United States!

Really, how socialist or tyrannical does it have to become before you consider it socialist or tyrannical? What is your benchmark?

[mdh]

Really, how socialist or tyrannical does it have to become before you consider it socialist or tyrannical? What is your benchmark?

I echo this sentiment. Anything >0 is too much for me!

[mdh]

The reason why I addressed this is because someone feels a need to declare our impending doom. Not to be mean, but MDH is one such supporter.

I'm quite proud to see through the propaganda and understand where this republic is (as Dr. Paul said - in remnant status) and where it will go under the leadership of someone like Clinton, Giuliani, Romney, or Obama.

[HammerDR]

Really, how socialist or tyrannical does it have to become before you consider it socialist or tyrannical? What is your benchmark?

First of all, not to be a liberal, socialist isn't necessarily evil. It's just bad government.

As for tyranny? We still vote. We still have a broad range of freedoms. Yes, they are SLOWLY chipping away at that and I am completely outraged at that.. but it's not tyrannical. We aren't quartering troops. We aren't having leaders "forced" upon us (though, you would disagree because you're part of VIS.. that's a whole other argument). Most of us never have the federal government touch us except to levy taxes and poor economic policy. I'd say we're still pretty far to the "free" side on the scales of balance.

[HammerDR]

Gah! Whatever! Go on and be soothsayers. My suggestion: disassociate yourself from the campaign when you do it. It's not a positive message. It hurts the movement :\

[Tn...Andy]

As for tyranny? We still vote. We still have a broad range of freedoms. Yes, they are SLOWLY chipping away at that and I am completely outraged at that.. but it's not tyrannical. We aren't quartering troops. We aren't having leaders "forced" upon us (though, you would disagree because you're part of VIS.. that's a whole other argument). Most of us never have the federal government touch us except to levy taxes and poor economic policy. I'd say we're still pretty far to the "free" side on the scales of balance.


As I said:

Today's tyrants are simply slicker about how they operate....they've figured out serfs are more productive when they have the illusion of a good life and freedom.


We aren't quartering troops.....ahahahahaaaaaaa......that remains about the ONLY one they haven't violated so far......and probably only because they've TAXED THE CRAP OUT OF US TO BUY THE TROOPS PLENTY OF QUARTERS....and halves and dimes and nickels.

[mdh]

Gah! Whatever! Go on and be soothsayers. My suggestion: disassociate yourself from the campaign when you do it. It's not a positive message. It hurts the movement :\

I think that claiming socialism is OK is not a positive message, and you should disassociate yourself from the campaign when you do it.













Not more of this crap, for the love of God... just when the hottest combatants of the truther wars were calming the hell down.

[disinter]

First of all, not to be a liberal, socialist isn't necessarily evil. It's just bad government.

Nonsense. You can't have socialism without theft. Theft is evil.


As for tyranny? We still vote.

They voted in Iraq under Saddam. They vote in Saudi Arabia and Iran. Voting is a facade, as it is here in the US.



We aren't quartering troops.

So that is your benchmark? Quartering troops?

[HammerDR]

-_-

Step off. I never said it was "okay." I said it was poor government policy. I think Dr. Paul would agree with my sentiment, not to put words in his mouth.

Edit:

I love the "line by line" argument posts. They really pull the argument out of context and try to discredit the argument by doing so!! Great job :) By the way, I'm not arguing this anymore. Just a few last points:

I'm a Dr. Paul supporter.
I'm a huge supporter of the free market and capitalism.
I'm a huge supporter of the Constitution and, more specifically, federalism / states' rights.
I'm a political "scholar" that has taken some time to read up on various political philosophies--including Locke's 2nd Treatise. Not that I'm saying that I'm better than anyone.. just saying that I wholeheartedly support the true message of Locke.
I'm a believer in positive message--truthful, positive messages. Negativity is only detrimental.
I think that declaring the impending death to the United States is counter-productive and .. wrong.

Thanks :)

[disinter]

I think that claiming socialism is OK is not a positive message, and you should disassociate yourself from the campaign when you do it.

I agree.

[briatx]

The Ron Paul campaign is the best chance we're going to have to save the Republic. Although the more cynical will say the Republic died years ago, before a lot of us were born, and they're probably right. But at least we pretend we still care about democracy and traditional American values. So really what we're fighting for is a return back to the Republic, and away from full blown open Empire.

Regardless of what I say, its not just a bunch of doomsayers holding signs on street corners and predicting the end of the world.

Consider this report from the GAO's Comptroller General of the United States:

http://www.gao.gov/cghome/d071188cg.pdf

----------------------- 8<
America is a great nation, probably the greatest in history. But if we want to keep America great, we have to recognize reality and make needed changes. As I mentioned earlier, there are striking similarities between America’s current situation and that of another great power from the past: Rome. The Roman Empire lasted 1,000 years, but only about half that time as a republic. The Roman Republic fell for many reasons, but three reasons are worth remembering: declining moral values and political civility at home, an overconfident and overextended military in foreign lands, and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government. Sound familiar? In my view, it’s time to learn from history and take steps to ensure the American Republic is the first to stand the test of time.

[Kuldebar]

It hurts the movement :\

You need more fiber if you have painful movements. :)

Hammer, just what do you think is motivating Ron Paul in his Campaign? What do you attribute to his dogged determination to help restore the Republic?

Perhaps, you need to take a look at history and get a feel for the direction things are going. There's no soothsaying required.

As surely as night follows day, some things are plain to see. History has a way of revealing what awaits in the future if the present goes unchecked.

[HammerDR]

You need more fiber if you have painful movements. :)

Hammer, just what do you think is motivating Ron Paul in his Campaign? What do you attribute to his dogged determination to help restore the Republic?

Perhaps, you need to take a look at history and get a feel for the direction things are going. There's no soothsaying required.

As surely as night follows day, some things are plain to see. History has a way of revealing what awaits in the future if the present goes unchecked.

A quick response: I say that there is general merit to their arguments. I just don't agree with the fact that the day Ron Paul loses, the nation crumbles. I guess that's a personal opinion.. but one I've reached by looking at the facts without being too emotionally involved. I do appreciate the level-headed rebuttal, though :)

[Kregener]

I am sorry if you tend to look at the world through rose-colored glasses Doc, but you are only fooling yourself if you really believe that there is not a designated "Plan" to destroy this nation.

One only need look at American history to see that it has been a long, drawn-out process with major..."leaps forward" every so often.

Civil War
WWI
Creation of the Federal Reserve
The Depression
WWII (hell, ALL wars)
9/11...etc., etc.

America is at the crossroads. There is no looking back if ANY person other than Ron Paul wins the Whitehouse in 2008.

I do not believe the Power Elite will allow Dr. Paul within shouting distance of the Oval Office, but it has not stopped me from writing him in in two presidential "elections".

And it will not stop me from supporting him now.

God save the Republic.

[HammerDR]

Off topic, but, why was this moved? This is "analysis" of the Ron Paul Campaign? Not that I mind.. just wondering why this is not considered analysis?

[disinter]

Off topic, but, why was this moved? This is "analysis" of the Ron Paul Campaign? Not that I mind.. just wondering why this is not considered analysis?

Because the moderator is an idiot? He moves anything Mr. White cries about.

[mdh]

A quick response: I say that there is general merit to their arguments. I just don't agree with the fact that the day Ron Paul loses, the nation crumbles. I guess that's a personal opinion.. but one I've reached by looking at the facts without being too emotionally involved. I do appreciate the level-headed rebuttal, though :)

I dunno about "crumbling that day", but I think things will get a *whole* lot worse over the next four years if he loses! Whether worse means 70% taxes, universal healthcare that lets people die on waiting lists, and an invasion of Pakistan... whether it means the majority of us being moved into FEMA concentration camps... whether it means empirial US conquests of North Korea and Iran and a military draft... whether it means the collapse of the US dollar and the introduction of the Amero currency as the "fix"... well, it doesn't matter - any of it is intolerable.

The question is what can we do about such intolerable conditions that most of us see as very realistic future goals for the power elite globalists of this world. This is a question we should all be asking of ourselves at least, if not of eachother. The government systems that exist today would've been impossible to implement some 50 years ago. We've been oppressed by this incrementalism, and in fact, they have succeeded. Now we see things like the executive orders enacted in May, June, July, and August of this year - just in the last few months, massive changes have occured and most people don't even know about them! Fox News and CNN sure aren't reporting on them. So what are you going to do, HammerDR, when they haul you off to the FEMA camp? When they tell you that you must trade in your USD for Ameros? When they initiate the draft? When Pakistan uses nuclear weapons on your home soil following the US empire invasion that Obama has called for? What then? You sure won't be on here complaining about "soothsayers"!

[Kuldebar]

A quick response: I say that there is general merit to their arguments. I just don't agree with the fact that the day Ron Paul loses, the nation crumbles. I guess that's a personal opinion.. but one I've reached by looking at the facts without being too emotionally involved. I do appreciate the level-headed rebuttal, though :)

I agree, I'm not saying that it will "crumble" immediately either.

But, I think many doors will be closed after this election. Whether via internet regulations or change of election laws or something awful happening that scares the hell out of everyone.

We might not be able to have another candidacy like Ron Paul's.

The status quo works to sustain and perpetuate itself. It is the nature of such things.

The sad part about it, it doesn't even require a conspiracy. I wish it did, conspiracies are easy to destroy.

But, how does one stop the decline of a civilization?

[HammerDR]

If that starts to happen, I'm sure you'll see how reactionary middle America can be.

The famous quote by the Japanese Admiral: "I fear we have awoke the sleeping giant." The sleeping giant wasn't the government--the government was actually doing all it could to support WWII. No, instead, it was the American people.

Many states will get pissed at the government. The states would start resisting and, eventually, ignoring Washington. The people would rally against Washington and even though they have all the might, power, military and money in the world.. we once had a revolution against such a government. While I hope and don't think it will come to that, it is possible.

Basically, I'm not fearful of the FEMA camps. I'm not fearful of all your great predictions. Please do remember that preying on the fears of people is the realm of the neocons--that is not what we do. We are better than that.

Edit: the decline of the United States really isn't in dispute. I agree. I do not think that we'll be under a categorical dictatorship in 2012 if Paul isn't elected, though. Such changes take time in our government.. which is how it was meant. I think we can endure much longer than people predict and we have a long time to change the course. Perhaps by the end of my lifetime we may end up seeing some drastic changed in the United States government if it were on its current course.

[Kuldebar]

If that starts to happen, I'm sure you'll see how reactionary middle America can be.

The famous quote by the Japanese Admiral: "I fear we have awoke the sleeping giant." The sleeping giant wasn't the government--the government was actually doing all it could to support WWII. No, instead, it was the American people.

Many states will get pissed at the government. The states would start resisting and, eventually, ignoring Washington. The people would rally against Washington and even though they have all the might, power, military and money in the world.. we once had a revolution against such a government. While I hope and don't think it will come to that, it is possible.

Basically, I'm not fearful of the FEMA camps. I'm not fearful of all your great predictions. Please do remember that preying on the fears of people is the realm of the neocons--that is not what we do. We are better than that.

I hope we have "awoke the sleeping giant" with the candidacy of Ron Paul. But, I generally agree with your point, yet I also see that there are many diverse ways such a popular protest could be stymied or defused. More likely just by getting the malcontents labeled as "terrorists" thus making the job of handling them a lot simpler.

[mdh]

If that starts to happen, I'm sure you'll see how reactionary middle America can be.

The famous quote by the Japanese Admiral: "I fear we have awoke the sleeping giant." The sleeping giant wasn't the government--the government was actually doing all it could to support WWII. No, instead, it was the American people.

Many states will get pissed at the government. The states would start resisting and, eventually, ignoring Washington. The people would rally against Washington and even though they have all the might, power, military and money in the world.. we once had a revolution against such a government. While I hope and don't think it will come to that, it is possible.

Yeah, this whole states rising up against Washington thing sounds vaguely familiar, though. Has it happened before? Some guy with a tophat, a beard, and an army of pillagers rolling through Charleston, SC and Atlanta, GA spring to mine. What was that called, again? :D

Seriously though, this is the point of incrementalism. If it hasn't happened yet, with all of the bad things going on that we can see... what makes you think it would happen in the future as more bad things happen?
Consider the Germans during the rise of Hitler's third reich. These same power elites have already done it. Prescott Bush, anyone? :mad: :mad: :mad:

First they came for the gays, and I'm not gay, so I did nothing.
Then they came for the muslims, and I'm not muslim, so I did nothing.
Who's next? The patriot movement? They've already painted us as terrorists by trying to associate us with the Oklahoma city federal building bombing.


Basically, I'm not fearful of the FEMA camps. I'm not fearful of all your great predictions. Please do remember that preying on the fears of people is the realm of the neocons--that is not what we do. We are better than that.

We're not about fear, we're about giving people hope that these things can be prevented - in this case, by electing Dr. Paul.

[Kuldebar]

Because the moderator is an idiot? He moves anything Mr. White cries about.

Who the hell is Mr. White?

[HammerDR]

"Elect Rudy Giuliani or else the terrorists will get you"

"Elect Ron Paul or else the government will get you"

Sounds pretty similar to me.

As for the Civil War.. I would say that any one of us that looks into it are all going to agree that Lincoln is not the great hero that the history books make him out to be.

[Kuldebar]

"Elect Rudy Giuliani or else the terrorists will get you"

"Elect Ron Paul or else the government will get you"

Sounds pretty similar to me.

As for the Civil War.. I would say that any one of us that looks into it are all going to agree that Lincoln is not the great hero that the history books make him out to be.

Accept, I'd hope you'd agree one is more realistic and honest than the other?

Yes, and if there is another "civil war" it's more likely to result in an even worse outcome.

[HammerDR]

That's not the point! It's still fearmongering?

[Wendi]

The nation most likely won't come to a screeching halt in November 2008 if Ron Paul isn't elected. But... it will continue down the path of tyranny and we have come so far already that it's only a matter of time before we reach the end of the line. I can understand why people feel this is our ONLY hope...

[Kuldebar]

That's not the point! It's still fearmongering?

Mongering implies manipulation for an end unto itself.

If I warn you that I think the house is on fire because smoke is pouring out of the attic, am I fear mongering?

What if I tell you that unless you give me the keys to your house, your house will burn down?

See the difference?

[HammerDR]

But it isn't our only hope. The movement itself is a cause for hope! The movement itself is a cause for optimism! Instead of being negative we should realize that we have already saved the United States!

[Kuldebar]

But it isn't our only hope. The movement itself is a cause for hope! The movement itself is a cause for optimism! Instead of being negative we should realize that we have already saved the United States!

I am not with out hope, but the hour is late.

The very thing that's fueling this movement is the level of desperation.

The boiling frog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog)might feel desperate before the end, however briefly.

[mdh]

But it isn't our only hope. The movement itself is a cause for hope! The movement itself is a cause for optimism!

This I agree with.


... we have already saved the United States!

This I disagree with.


The way I see it, a Ron Paul victory is not the *only* hope, but it's certainly the best case scenario. What comes after if we cannot achieve that, may get ugly, may get bloody.

[HammerDR]

I guess I put more faith in the supporters and the campaign and the grassroots than you guys do. *shrugs* Oh well.

Edit: not saying you don't have faith.. I guess I have higher expectations. That'd be a better way to put it.

[themanhere]

If Ron Pauls election could save us from one more preemptive made up war, then he has done his job.

I think what they mean to say if he was elected it could change the course of our country for the better. Hes the turning point, a drastic change from what we have had in the past 30 years on so many levels. He cant be bought by lobbyist, he strictly follows the constitution, his foreign policy is the icing on the cake.


In a sense he could very well save this nation from what my happen in 100 years past our life time.

Jefferson, Lincoln and Washington affected the nation long after they left and still do to this day.

[jaybone]

I believe that at least economically, the die is cast.
A Ron Paul victory may stop our descent into the abyss, but economic events can take many years to manifest and what we are seeing now in the debt markets is just a hint of what is to come.

Ron in the WH would make me exceedingly happy and give me great hope for the future, but it is just a start, not a cure-all.
It is the movement in total that has the potential to save the Republic, not the man.

As far as social issues go; Ron has said many times that we now have generations that are dependent on government programs. It will realistically take many years to shrink government significantly, especially if the economy is in the toilet.


What Ron can do immediately, is restore our enumerated rights and repeal the heinous signing statements.

Our cause is just and important, but we are going to have some serious pain to muddle through even if we win. Just listen to the GAO

[constituent]

i kinda hope it all falls to chit myself...

consider me the odd man out i guess, but my life is protest to this whole system. i'm capable of providing a comfortable life for myself w/ what God has given us... i don't need all the extra crap.

[Syren123]

The only thing I fear - and it's not a depression for it's own sake - but that the upcoming orchestrated collapse will result not in the crash of the existing order, but in the institution of the NEW WORLD ORDER - the NAU. And then there will be NO fixing it. We won't even get the opportunity to rebuild the country with out own efforts.

If anyone besides Ron Paul is elected, the NAU is a sure thing. THAT is the only thing that REALLY scares me.

[1000-points-of-fright]

I agree that we have been sliding down the hill of complete government control and recently it seems that we decided to put on roller skates. We need to stop this incremental descent into totalitarianism.

But those of you who say we are already living in a police state have no idea what that really means. Oh sure, you've read about it and seen it on "the youtubes" but I'm gonna guess that none of you have ever lived it.

[Hook]

I wonder if HammerDR is M.C. Hammer. You know that MCH put Dr. Pauls videos on his website?