Murray Sabrin will support John McCain! [Admin: No root source for info]

[dawnbt]

I found this over on Daily Paul!

"With regard to presumptive Republican Presidential nominee John McCain, Republican U.S. Senate candidate Murray Sabrin, New Jersey’s foremost advocate of limited government and individual freedom, today issued the following statement:

“As a proud conservative Republican who has donated to, campaigned for, and supported such solid conservatives like Scott Garrett, Steve Lonegan, Jay Webber and Bret Schundler, I will support the Republican Presidential nominee if it is John McCain."
(more)
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/39434

[Give me liberty]

Dont give your money to Murray Sabrin

its a waste.

[nate895]

I doubt it, Murray Sabrin is a good candidate, and wouldn't wreck his only shot, which is us.

[Agora]

read it carefully.
again.
It's a GOP loyalty card on stake.
and...He is not Ron Paul.

[Laja]

I read it again carefully and he says he'll support McCain if McCain is the Republican nominee. What a scumbag!!!

[Give me liberty]

and people here thought that Murray Sabrin was a ron paul like?

[nate895]

and people here thought that Murray Sabrin was a ron paul like?

He is endorsed by Ron Paul.

[dsentell]

and people here thought that Murray Sabrin was a ron paul like?

Check paulcongress.com ---- apparently RP actually endorsed Sabin!!!

What a traitor, scumbag!

REMOVE HIM FROM PAULCONGRESS IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!

[UtahApocalypse]

Absolute scum bag piece of shit. I wonder if anyone that paid with a CC can dispute charges.

[Jeremy]

Don't be so harsh. I disagree with him here too, but what he's saying is he won't support Obama or Clinton... and he's trying to get the status-quo Reps to vote for him, which he needs

[nate895]

Don't be so harsh. I disagree with him here too, but what he's saying is he won't support Obama or Clinton... and he's trying to get the status-quo Reps to vote for him, which he needs

He could have not said anything about it.

[born2drv]

I agree, don't be so harsh. I think it's wrong of this guy to call McCain "conservative" but supporting McCain who is republican when you're a republican kind of goes with the territory when you're an elected official within the same party. We don't have to support (R) automatically, but they're expected to. He may not be as principled as Paul, but if he votes just as well then he's alright if you ask me.

[dsentell]

He could have not said anything about it.

Exactly!

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I was staying in the GOP to vote for his dumb ass. Not anymore! Back to the LP I go!

[dsentell]

Ron Paul endorsed him, Ron Paul supporters are funding his campaign and he just sticks a knife in our backs . . .

He could have just kept his mouth shut . . .

[Jeremy]

the article doesnt even have proper sources

you didnt even hear this from sabrin himself... CALM DOWN before you cause harm

[pacelli]

the article doesnt even have proper sources

you didnt even hear this from sabrin himself... CALM DOWN before you cause harm

QFT

[dsentell]

I just sent Sabin an email asking if this story is correct. We will see if I get any reply . . . .

[nate895]

the article doesnt even have proper sources

you didnt even hear this from sabrin himself... CALM DOWN before you cause harm

I agree, I even remember the email where the other paragraph was being posted on the forums, and it didn't include the statement about McCain.

[IDefendThePlatform]

I'm torn. On the one hand, this is a step towards compromising and becoming a part of the problem. On the other hand, he could use some help to get elected, then just vote strictly for freedom once in office. If I think about this much more my head will start to hurt.

[pacelli]

I just sent Sabin an email asking if this story is correct. We will see if I get any reply . . . .

Thank you. Please keep us updated.

[hellsingfan]

its seems all of you are too naive in the political scheme. If you don't like what he says shut the hell up, its plain politics. If you think you can win this country back without slick tricks then you are living in a fantasy world!

And if you look at what he said, he INTELLIGENTLY LEFT OUT McCAIN from the Conservative list he quoted. He pretty much said, well if hell breaks loose then I'll be loyal to Republican by voting for a dumbass, bastard, warmongerer, who is NOT a conservative.

All to butter up the GOP. If you don't get it, or if you think he shouldn've stayed quiet, then you either don't understand politics or you don't understand that being quiet doesn't get you vote from the GOP!

If he's losing our votes cuz of this, then I wonder what type of "revolution" is this! He did this because he knows we'll vote for him, but he needs GOP voters too. But if you don't get it and wish to leave him then I'll see how far this Revolution goes. You don't get EVERYTHING the way you want!

[dsentell]

I'm torn. On the one hand, this is a step towards compromising and becoming a part of the problem. On the other hand, he could use some help to get elected, then just vote strictly for freedom once in office. If I think about this much more my head will start to hurt.

I agree.

If he has so quickly compromised on this, I am uneasy about how he will hold up to the pressure that will undoubtedly be put on him should he get into Congress. . .

[dsentell]

Thank you. Please keep us updated.

Will do!

[Agora]

the article doesnt even have proper sources

you didnt even hear this from sabrin himself... CALM DOWN before you cause harm


+1

[mavtek]

Politics is a dirty business.

[familydog]

The reactions by people here are exactly why this movement might not go beyond Ron's presidential run.

[dsentell]

Politics is a dirty business.

Sure is and I hate to see one of ours rolling in the mud with the rest of the swine . . .

Dr. Paul never operated that way . . .

[kyleAF]

I'm torn. On the one hand, this is a step towards compromising and becoming a part of the problem. On the other hand, he could use some help to get elected, then just vote strictly for freedom once in office. If I think about this much more my head will start to hurt.

Infiltrate. It's what everyone else has done.

[ronpaulyourmom]

its seems all of you are too naive in the political scheme. If you don't like what he says shut the hell up, its plain politics. If you think you can win this country back without slick tricks then you are living in a fantasy world!

And if you look at what he said, he INTELLIGENTLY LEFT OUT McCAIN from the Conservative list he quoted. He pretty much said, well if hell breaks loose then I'll be loyal to Republican by voting for a dumbass, bastard, warmongerer, who is NOT a conservative.

All to butter up the GOP. If you don't get it, or if you think he shouldn've stayed quiet, then you either don't understand politics or you don't understand that being quiet doesn't get you vote from the GOP!

If he's losing our votes cuz of this, then I wonder what type of "revolution" is this! He did this because he knows we'll vote for him, but he needs GOP voters too. But if you don't get it and wish to leave him then I'll see how far this Revolution goes. You don't get EVERYTHING the way you want!


Quoted for truth even if I didn't wanna hear it.

[kyleAF]

its seems all of you are too naive in the political scheme. If you don't like what he says shut the hell up, its plain politics. If you think you can win this country back without slick tricks then you are living in a fantasy world!

And if you look at what he said, he INTELLIGENTLY LEFT OUT McCAIN from the Conservative list he quoted. He pretty much said, well if hell breaks loose then I'll be loyal to Republican by voting for a dumbass, bastard, warmongerer, who is NOT a conservative.

All to butter up the GOP. If you don't get it, or if you think he shouldn've stayed quiet, then you either don't understand politics or you don't understand that being quiet doesn't get you vote from the GOP!

If he's losing our votes cuz of this, then I wonder what type of "revolution" is this! He did this because he knows we'll vote for him, but he needs GOP voters too. But if you don't get it and wish to leave him then I'll see how far this Revolution goes. You don't get EVERYTHING the way you want!

QFT. This is not the "butterflies and roses" Libertarian ideals world... Wake up and smell the underhanded assaults on liberty. FIGHT them, don't wait for them to find morality. Lie if you have to. Liberty is not granted to anyone, it must be taken.

[nate895]

QFT. This is not the "butterflies and roses" Libertarian ideals world... Wake up and smell the underhanded assaults on liberty. FIGHT them, don't wait for them to find morality. Lie if you have to. Liberty is not granted to anyone, it must be taken.

I don't believe in lying, and you can avoid issues, just tell the truth when asked.

[crazyfingers]

Good. It sounds like he's actually serious about winning the nomination.

It's really an empty gesture, it's not as if McCain is going to win NJ.

[s35wf]

actually if your a good politicean, salesman, etc, you do the bypass and talk without really answering the question :)

symantics = the art of letting them hear what they want to hear WITHOUT actually saying what they want you to say :cool:

[Pauliana]

These are the words and actions of someone who will go along to get along, if true.

Not worthy of our revolution. A great disappointment.

[Cowlesy]

its seems all of you are too naive in the political scheme. If you don't like what he says shut the hell up, its plain politics. If you think you can win this country back without slick tricks then you are living in a fantasy world!

And if you look at what he said, he INTELLIGENTLY LEFT OUT McCAIN from the Conservative list he quoted. He pretty much said, well if hell breaks loose then I'll be loyal to Republican by voting for a dumbass, bastard, warmongerer, who is NOT a conservative.

All to butter up the GOP. If you don't get it, or if you think he shouldn've stayed quiet, then you either don't understand politics or you don't understand that being quiet doesn't get you vote from the GOP!

If he's losing our votes cuz of this, then I wonder what type of "revolution" is this! He did this because he knows we'll vote for him, but he needs GOP voters too. But if you don't get it and wish to leave him then I'll see how far this Revolution goes. You don't get EVERYTHING the way you want!

QFT.

He's a longshot as it is, and he'll need to get the mindless people behind him as much as the educated, informed voters. Remember voters are really a bellcurve ---- 10% on one end are avowedly liberal and socialist....10% on the other end are hardcore conservatives and some libertarians ---- and 80% in the middle, the chunk that decides the election --- well they don't really have a clue other than what they read or someone tells them --- and they listen to senior party members, and so we have to play the stupid game.

It's a U.S. Senate run. It's not like a Congressional District where you can probably hit-up every town in the district --- he's going to need broadbased support across the entire state and us activists who can get the word out in non-traditional fashions to make this happen.

Look, Ron endorsed the guy and has known him for 25 years. I'd think he'd speak with Ron before saying something like that as he knows his rock-base are all RP supporters.

I'm giving the guy a chance.

[Doktor_Jeep]

I don't believe it.

Where did this come from, the Cato Smearbund?

[nate895]

QFT.

He's a longshot as it is, and he'll need to get the mindless people behind him as much as the educated, informed voters. Remember voters are really a bellcurve ---- 10% on one end are avowedly liberal and socialist....10% on the other end are hardcore conservatives and some libertarians ---- and 80% in the middle, the chunk that decides the election --- well they don't really have a clue other than what they read or someone tells them --- and they listen to senior party members, and so we have to play the stupid game.

It's a U.S. Senate run. It's not like a Congressional District where you can probably hit-up every town in the district --- he's going to need broadbased support across the entire state and us activists who can get the word out in non-traditional fashions to make this happen.

Look, Ron endorsed the guy and has known him for 25 years. I'd think he'd speak with Ron before saying something like that as he knows his rock-base are all RP supporters.

I'm giving the guy a chance.

I am not entirely sure if he said it, and he has a good chance at winning the primaries, he is up against someone who helped finance Democrats, and in the General Election, he is up against an 84-year-old.

In America, 20-25% identify themselves as liberal, 35-40% conservative, and 40-45% "moderate." But, what is funny, if you talk to the average Joe, you will find that you will agree with most on 90% of the issues.

[JDouglasFisher]

Let me clear the air on this issue right now because it seems some people are just looking for excuses to say that our movement lost and that its not worth fighting anymore.

What Sabrin said when asked this question among the more main stream republicans (who by the way, will be the ones who will help elect our guy into the U.S. Senate) "IF" he would support whoever the nominee was, he answered yes.

Now lets be practical for a minute. Why the hell would you turn around, KNOWING you need the republican party base to get elected, and say that you wouldn't support the nominee???? Thats political suicide!!!

Although there is a miracle of a chance that Ron Paul gets the nomination, the reality is (and more and more people are realizing it) that he most likely will NOT...

That being said, "IF" (which is what he said) the party Nominated McCain, he would support him.

To be honest with you, I really hope Ron Paul gets the nomination, but falling short of that, should he not get it, it makes no sense WHAT SO EVER, to not support Murray because he said he would support whoever the nominee is..

When Murray gets elected, WE STILL WON! Our movement will have still succeeded by placing a RON PAUL REPUBLICAN in the U.S. Senate. PLUS, it should be all the more reason to support Sabrin cause if you don't, and the Democrat wins, or worse still, A NEOCON Republican, McCain (or Hillary) being president, will be able to run rampant.

Atleast with Sabrin, he'll be able to keep them in check.

Think about this for a minute, are you willing to cut your nose off to spite your face? Or do you really want to start placing Ron Paul Republicans all over the government?

Politics is like warfare. Its a dirty game of popularity. Sometimes we have to do the dirty things in order to win, and if its making the mainstream believe that we're willing to step in line in order to do it, so be it. Won't they all be surprised when we announce ourselves publicly.

Consider it equivalent to the work of U.S. Navy Seals. Everything they do, they sneak inside to do it. If sneaking inside the U.S. Senate is how we are going to do it, then let it be.

I knew this shit would happen, because there are just some people who don't understand what inside politics is. Use your imagination and think outside the box damn it. Ron Paul already won, he started a revolution. The Republican Party knows this, but cannot accept sudden change. They're like a bratty child, kicking and screaming as he's being dragged inside for dinner.

Yeah, I agree, its a shitty thing to have to do, but failure to put on our camoflouge and hide among the woods till our target is insight, is just like walking in a bright orange prison jumpsuit, which we all will be wearing if we don't start getting politically savvy, and playing the game their way.

The choice is yours, QUIT altogether and not get anything you wanted achieved, OR bullshit them a little, and start getting our guys in.

The RNC KNOWS it has no choice now. Failure to help us spells doom for the Republican Party. But they also know that when they do help us, it will mean that the focus of the party will be changed. For the Neo-Cons, its game over either which way they look at.

Or, to look at it another way, they have no choice but to surrender. Its either that or total annihilation of the party.

[familydog]

If he did say this, I hope people don't stop supporting him. If we are going for "purity" we can forget about this movement, because it will turn out just like the Libertarain Party. Great ideas ,great talk, but can't get elected or taken seriously by the mainstream.

[Peace&Freedom]

If he did say this, I hope people don't stop supporting him. If we are going for "purity" we can forget about this movement, because it will turn out just like the Libertarian Party. Great ideas, great talk, but can't get elected or taken seriously by the mainstream.

This isn't about purity, it's about all the reasons we've liked Ron Paul, including that part about Paul NOT COMPROMISING. Paul could have 'played the game,' 'snuck around,' or gotten dirty' by being Dr. Yes over his ten terms, and been just another one of the gang. The saying in libertarian circles for years has been that 'Ron Paul doesn't leak.' His integrity, consistency and AVOIDANCE of dirty politics has been a main attraction point for his supporters. As a PRAGMATIC matter, Sabrin has broken the good faith commitment to be 'just like Paul' with his supporters.

Sabrin is leaking. He didn't have to say anything, or could have said the same thing Paul has said about endorsing McCain. why is the grassroots asked to go with whatever Paul's answer is on all issues, but Ron Paul candidates can deviate at will? Do we next put up with pro-war Paul Republicans? Pro-IRS Paul candidates? Does the movement end up like the Republican homages to Reagan, with candidates simply invoking his name without any adherence to his positions?

Yes, the end game is to elect more Ron Paul people (from ANY party) to Congress and the White House. But let's elect people who really will be Ron Paulites, not play-along compromisers. One Paul-like Senator can shut down the whole statist operation with filibuster after filibuster---but they MUST be leak-resistant to handle the pressure. Sabrin is giving off the opposite signal with the McCain comment.

[Naraku]

http://www.redjersey.net/2008/02/20/murray-sabrin-will-support-the-republican-nominee/

All the same I think anyone who says they won't back him over this should be ashamed of themselves. He's showing party loyalty, nothing more. How many would prefer Obama or Hillary to McCain? Show of hands.

[Flash]

Lets see how Murray Sabrin does while in office. If he does a bad job, then we should stop supporting him.

[torchbearer]

I won't support John McCain. period.
I don't care if they crown him god-emperor of mankind.
Scum is scum.

[JS4Pat]

I'm torn. On the one hand, this is a step towards compromising and becoming a part of the problem. On the other hand, he could use some help to get elected, then just vote strictly for freedom once in office.

NO! This is EXACTLY the kind of sh!t that we are trying to STOP!

There is no way - absolutely positively no way - that you can support/vote for John McCain and be a part of this movement! NO WAY!!!! :mad:

Man - I'm glad that I was not sucked into giving money to this guy.

[JS4Pat]

Good. It sounds like he's actually serious about winning the nomination.

"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?"

[SabrinForSenate]

There is no way - absolutely positively no way - that you can support/vote for John McCain and be a part of this movement! NO WAY!!!! :mad:

Who says? You?

Because last time I checked, Murray Sabrin received Ron Paul's endorsement for Senate and speak regularly on the phone.

Let's just think about this logically. Sabrin is running to win and won't be able to do squat if he is not elected. Let's also not forget that he's a politician and has to cater to a wide electorate. As great as the libertarian movement is, it is simply not big enough to elect a Senator. So what Sabrin is doing is reaching out to people by speaking their language.

Sabrin won't be shy about disagreeing with McCain, but will support him because doing otherwise is political suicide. McCain always says he puts party above country; Sabrin is going to do the same, once elected.

If Lew Rockwell, Murray Sabrin, Larry Lepard, Trevor Lyman, Tom Woods, Tom DiLorenzo, and other heavy-hitters of the libertarian movement endorse Sabrin...it's safe to say that he is committed to liberty.

[SabrinForSenate]

"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?"
Because if he gains the world he will be able to make it a better place. Who cares if Sabrin says he will support the Republican nominee? If McCain were to say that he loves Ron Paul's principles, but doesn't act on them...why does it matter?

It's the actions that count. To compare a political move to forfeiting one's soul is unfair. Sabrin has committed his life to this movement and wants to bring it to the mainstream in the Senate. He will have to sneak in though. Let's give him the support.

[familydog]

He recieved Ron Paul's endorsement. He has known Sabrin for many many years. Has Ron Paul came out and scolded Sabrin for this? Retracted his endorsement? Heck, its not even confirmed Sabrin said this.

I trust Ron Paul's judgement enough that I will vote for Paul. So if he trusts Sabrin, so do I.

[newyearsrevolution08]

SOmetimes you have to make things happen to even up the playing field. Do I agree with it? NO but understand why some might do whatever they can to get in so they then can start getting things back to the constitution. Is that the best way? of course not but what good is a person who cant get elected at all based on being 100% against everything the people that he is trying to get votes from "think" is important.

SOmetimes things need to be worded to get the "sheepish" vote and then once in office you actually show them what freedom, choice and what following the constitution can do for us.

I wish we could have all ron paul republicans and democrats be able to be 100% against anything that is against the constitution and the nation would accept them with open arms BUT people are not that smart just yet and are still very misinformed.

Mccain is the leading nominee people, we are not really working with "sane" people if even the "anti war" republicans are STILL voting for him.

[JS4Pat]

If McCain were to say that he loves Ron Paul's principles, but doesn't act on them...why does it matter?
It would matter - because in the typical "politics as usual" fashion he would have SAID one thing and DONE another.

Most of us are in this movement because we are sick of that shit.

One of the reasons I have been willing to give up so much for Ron Paul is because he doesn't say one thing and do another. He speaks honestly! That is what people in this country need to get accustomed to hearing again - TRUTH! (Straight Talk if you will).

If Sabrin has to "sneak" into office by lying, then I don't want him in office - even if he would be the lesser of two evils.

[JS4Pat]

It's the actions that count.

Proclaiming to the Sheep that you will be supporting a man who fought to violate our 1st Amendment Right via McCain/Feingold. Who fought to violate our 2nd Amendment Right via Gun Show Loophole Laws. And who supported an unconstitutional, unethical and immoral war & vows to continue this tragic mistake...

That my friend is an ACTION and it COUNTS!

[SabrinForSenate]

If Sabrin has to "sneak" into office by lying, then I don't want him in office - even if he would be the lesser of two evils.
Ok. Fine. You don't want him in office, but Ron Paul does. We'll let people make up their own minds. Sound fair?

[newyearsrevolution08]

I understand this line of thinking and what it makes people realize is that WE have to get the people to change their thinking for someone like ron paul to get elected president then. We have to change the way people view how things need to be ran OR none of them will ever get too far in politics how they are right now.

I do see how it can be easier to sneak in under another platform just to get the position so you can then make change but can see a huge downfall to it as well.

Sometimes people will go too far to try and HELP others, maybe it doesn't matter how good the intention is if it is still wrong just like when a city uses eminent domain to BETTER the city for the greater good. It really is a good thing to have a nicer city but at what costs.


It would matter - because in the typical "politics as usual" fashion he would have SAID one thing and DONE another.

Most of us are in this movement because we are sick of that shit.

One of the reasons I have been willing to give up so much for Ron Paul is because he doesn't say one thing and do another. He speaks honestly! That is what people in this country need to get accustomed to hearing again - TRUTH! (Straight Talk if you will).

If Sabrin has to "sneak" into office by lying, then I don't want him in office - even if he would be the lesser of two evils.

[SabrinForSenate]

Proclaiming to the Sheep that you will be supporting a man who fought to violate our 1st Amendment Right via McCain/Feingold. Who fought to violate our 2nd Amendment Right via Gun Show Loophole Laws. And who supported an unconstitutional, unethical and immoral war & vows to continue this tragic mistake...

That my friend is an ACTION and it COUNTS!

Sabrin has publically spoken out against McCain/Feingold and has promised never to restrict one's first, second, forth, fifth, ninth, or tenth Amendment rights.

You still aren't getting the difference between action and rhetoric. Sabrin has PROMISED never to allow ANY legislation to pass that is unconstitutional. Fine...so he says he will support McCain if he is nominated. As long as he continues to speak out and VOTE against McCain's failed neoconservative philosophy and pernicious legislation, then he is the candidate to support.

I mean what about Sabrin's POSITION do you not like?

[0zzy]

STFU YOU GUYS ARE SO WHINEY. OHMFG know wonder well never achive anything cause dumbasses like you guys always whine whine whine qwhine. its annoying as hell.

[Original_Intent]

I think we libertarians are a tad too quick to cry "betrayal!" if someone does not do things exactly as we would. And this hasn't even been properly documented to have been said.

It's clear he is no Ron Paul, but the fact that RP endorsed him makes me thing taking a wait and see position might be better than flying off the handle.

[DirtMcGirt]

Sabrin is right on with his positions... I don't see the problem here... You have to play the game... Let's get him the resources to get elected... Bottom line there is a ridiculous amount of corruption in jersey gov't officials, Sabrin is needed there!!!

[JS4Pat]

Ok. Fine. You don't want him in office, but Ron Paul does. We'll let people make up their own minds. Sound fair?

Yes, that is fair. You are correct - I should not have presumed the rest of the movement has to be with me on this. (Kinda of assumed they would be)

[SabrinForSenate]

And it's not like Sabrin is forcing his supporters to support McCain. I refuse to support McCain; I consider him to be one of the most dangerous men in America; is he the archetypal fascist whose pleasure in life comes solely from the arrogation of more power.

But Sabrin is a great man with solid positions; he has spent a lifetime defending the principles of limited government, peace, and the free market. If people can't see this inconsequential political decision, then that's their problem.

[SabrinForSenate]

Yes, that is fair. You are correct - I should not have presumed the rest of the movement has to be with me on this. (Kinda of assumed they would be)
Yes, as long as you recognize that Murray Sabrin is committed to the principles of liberty and that the only reason you don't like him is because of one press release, then your entitled to believe what you want.

[newyearsrevolution08]

Its hard to know who to trust as a politician anymore and I think that is just the problem. Always do your research and yes there can be people who even voted wrong in the past as well who now have learned more about the constitution through ron paul and might have changed their views from then on and will only vote for the constitution as it should be.

I myself used to be a mccain man and that was still until LATE last year. We all WAKE UP at different times and I think we will start seeing some current politicians who like and agree with ron paul who have a not so great record in voting even though they NOW will be 100% on par with the constitution.

Now playing games just to get elected is what its all about and getting that "general population" vote. This thinking however will lose some of the diehards but odds are will replace that with even more sheepish voters who can hopefully then WAKE UP.

I am not going to talk down on anyone who does what he or she can to help us fight for our country especially on uneven playing grounds how they are now, it can also work against the person later on though when they then speak out against people like mccain and the failed policies.

I still would elect a ron paul republican/democrat who has most of the constitutional views but plays the game for the general population to get into office. I wish they all could just run on the 100% constitutional platform and everyone would accept them with open arms as well but look at how well that works on a national level for us so far.... We need to get the general population voting with us in one way or another because real change needs to be done NOW before our country really goes down....

[JS4Pat]

I mean what about Sabrin's POSITION do you not like?

He is right on the issues - that is why I was excited about his candidacy.

I just believe that what he did by saying he will support John McCain as the nominee runs counter to the essence of what this movement is about - TRUTH and REAL CHANGE IN OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM!

I believe this movement is about rising above the conventional political game of "going along to get along". I envision this movement settling for nothing less than TRUTH. We can disagree on some issues - but TRUTH & CONSISTENCY should be our Trademark.

Supporting John McCain demonstrates inconsistency between what Sabrin proclaims to stand for and stand against.

This is not good - In my opinion it is inexcusable. I hope Ron Paul withdraws his endorsement.

[familydog]

He is right on the issues - that is why I was excited about his candidacy.

I just believe that what he did by saying he will support John McCain as the nominee runs counter to the essence of what this movement is about - TRUTH and REAL CHANGE IN OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM!

I believe this movement is about rising above the conventional political game of "going along to get along". I envision this movement settling for nothing less than TRUTH. We can disagree on some issues - but TRUTH & CONSISTENCY should be our Trademark.

Supporting John McCain demonstrates inconsistency between what Sabrin proclaims to stand for and stand against.

This is not good - In my opinion it is inexcusable. I hope Ron Paul withdraws his endorsement.

Withdraw his endrosement when this hasn't been confirmed? I think Ron has better judgement than that.

[JS4Pat]

STFU YOU GUYS ARE SO WHINEY. OHMFG know wonder well never achive anything cause dumbasses like you guys always whine whine whine qwhine. its annoying as hell.

I don't think this whinning or being nitpicky.

An action like this is a direct reflection of the integrity of this movement.

As a Ron Paul Republican - I want to be on record as STANDING AGAINST any candidate that pledges his/her support to John McCain.

[JS4Pat]

Withdraw his endrosement when this hasn't been confirmed? I think Ron has better judgement than that.

Jeeeesh - this isn't even confirmed yet????

WTF??

I hope this whole thread is moot.

[familydog]

Jeeeesh - this isn't even confirmed yet????

WTF??

I hope this whole thread is moot.

Well, the link that DailyPaul got it from doesn't have any sources. The site just claims Sabrin said this.

EDIT: The source for this information says the poster has official ties to Sabrin. I'm skeptical, but take it how you want.

[JS4Pat]

Well, the link that DailyPaul got it from doesn't have any sources. The site just claims Sabrin said this.

Man I hope the claim is false...

[JS4Pat]

Well, the link that DailyPaul got it from doesn't have any sources. The site just claims Sabrin said this.

EDIT: The source for this information says the poster has official ties to Sabrin. I'm skeptical, but take it how you want.

So have we got confirmation on this?

I think it is important that we set the record straight.

[Devil_rules_in_extremes]

I found this over on Daily Paul!

"With regard to presumptive Republican Presidential nominee John McCain, Republican U.S. Senate candidate Murray Sabrin, New Jersey’s foremost advocate of limited government and individual freedom, today issued the following statement:

“As a proud conservative Republican who has donated to, campaigned for, and supported such solid conservatives like Scott Garrett, Steve Lonegan, Jay Webber and Bret Schundler, I will support the Republican Presidential nominee if it is John McCain."
(more)
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/39434

This link doesn't even work.

I call BS on Murray Sabrin making this statement.

[Flash]

I can understand people being disappointed. Murray Sabrin is in line to be the next Ron Paul. But this story isn't even confirmed yet. Lets just keep donating t Sabrin's campaign like we've been doing.

[boggie08]

How are we supposed to change the GOP if we are going to attack it constantly? Someone set a trap for him by asking if he would support the Republican nominee. If he had answered no, then he would have all of us, but few Republicans. I am not going to abandon a candidate running on Ron Paul's platform because he is not the absolute maverick that Ron Paul is.

[boggie08]

The truth of the matter is that for this movement to work, we are going to need pure patriots and compromisers. Compromisers can help bring the message into the mainstream. I agree we should be very careful of compromising our principles, but I do not think that is what this is. I never bash McCain to a McCain supporter. That only pushes them away and closes their eyes to the truth.

[JS4Pat]

How are we supposed to change the GOP if we are going to attack it constantly?

Ahhhh - How are we supposed to change the GOP if we give a public endorsement of what they represent today? It's total hypocrisy and puts all of our credibility on the line!


Someone set a trap for him by asking if he would support the Republican nominee. If he had answered no, then he would have all of us, but few Republicans. I am not going to abandon a candidate running on Ron Paul's platform because he is not the absolute maverick that Ron Paul is.

I might be able to swallow Sabrin's answer if the nominee were Huckabee or Romney (although I would still lose respect for him). But McCAIN!!! He stands for just about EVERYTHING that this movement stands against!

Proclaiming support for John McCain demonstrates a glaring inconsistency between Sabrin and what this movement is fighting for and fighting against. If this is confirmed to be true, then I would urge people to NOT contribute to his campaign.

[seeker1]

Hey folks, why are you so hung up on a politician being political? He's going to say what needs to be said to be elected. I don't trust him or his loyalties.

You really bought into this Ron Paul Republican GOP takeover thing didn't you? :cool:

[Unspun]

All of you that are getting riled up about this really need to watch Edward G. Griffin's "An Idea Who's Time Has Come" on Google Video.

[Flash]

If this is confirmed to be true, then I would urge people to NOT contribute to his campaign.

Thats a fair deal. But I still think this is just a rumor. Until its confirmed, keep donating and supporting him.

[Naraku]

http://www.redjersey.net/2008/02/20/murray-sabrin-will-support-the-republican-nominee/

I'm pretty sure this is true. Again, it shouldn't matter. The reaction of some here is the kind of stuff that makes good plans go sour.

[JDouglasFisher]

I think the R[evol]ution has already started to speak with their wallets, as the ticker on the Murray Sabrin website has more than doubled from roughly 62,000 dollars on Thursday, to about 151,000 as of Saturday afternoon.

As for you naysayers out there who are afraid of anything that isn't "perfectly inline" with what you think is the way you do business, I advise you to get on the National Conference Call this Thursday Evening, 9pm EST, 6 PM PT. He has been on it for the past two weeks, and plans to be on it every Thursday from here on out, giving short 10 minute discussions about the Federal Reserve, National Sovereignty, Border Security, etc. Something different every week..

Call in line is: 605-475-8500 access # 5092984. Hear it for yourself, and then decide. But I think its safe to say that the people have decided already, and that although I understand you caution, you need to realize that true %100 Libertarian Candidates who will only talk to other Libertarian Voters, cannot win simply because they do not have the voting base to push them over the top.

[JS4Pat]

I'm pretty sure this is true. Again, it shouldn't matter.
CREDIBILITY!!!

I have not spent the past 9 months spreading Dr. Paul's message only to be rightfully labeled a "hypocrite" when I have to admit that this movement supports a candidate who supports someone like JOHN McCAIN!

For me this is not even negotiable...

I DO NO SUPPORT WAR MONGERING NEOCON REPUBLICANS WHO BLATANTLY VIOLATE THE US CONSTITUTION! NOT FOR ANY REASON - STRATEGIC OR OTHERWISE!

I know politics requires compromise and in order to win we have to play the game to some extent - but this is way too far out of bounds.

[JS4Pat]

As for you naysayers out there who are afraid of anything that isn't "perfectly inline" with what you think is the way you do business...I

You need to realize that true %100 Libertarian Candidates who will only talk to other Libertarian Voters, cannot win simply because they do not have the voting base to push them over the top.

I don't expect perfection from Ron Paul Republican candidates - far from it.

And I want to talk to Republicans, Democrats, Third Party members and Independents - but I want them to be able to count on a consistent message and I want them to know that we do not "sell-out" our principles!

There is just NO justification for one of us saying that we will support John McCain if he is the Republican nominee! I mean why even continue the revolution...:(

[SabrinForSenate]

There is just NO justification for one of us saying that we will support John McCain if he is the Republican nominee! I mean why even continue the revolution...:(
So you would rather have Frank Lautenberg or Joe Pennacchio elected?

Listen, if you want to build a movement of strict Rothbardians, you will not be able to get elected. The nature of electoral politics is that it involves compromise. As far as compromises go, telling the GOP establishment what they want to hear, is not a bad one. We should judge Sabrin on his ACTIONS and BELIEFS.

I mean seriously...he wrote a piece that got put in the NY Times about how the Fed is a legal counterfeiter.

Have you ever listened to him speak?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRwJskZyqOc

[JS4Pat]

Have you ever listened to him speak?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRwJskZyqOc

He sounds excellent!

But I'm sorry I just can't support someone who pledges they will support a war mongering Neo-con Republican who blatantly violates the United States Constitution.

It's a deal breaker for me and I hope it's a deal breaker for a lot of others in this movement.

If we can't win without doing that, then the Sheep are not yet ready for us. Let's go back to building our movement and educating more people.

Let's do this the right way!

[SabrinForSenate]

He sounds excellent!

But I'm sorry I just can't support someone who pledges they will support a war mongering Neo-con Republican who blatantly violates the United States Constitution.

It's a deal breaker for me and I hope it's a deal breaker for a lot of others in this movement.

If we can't win without doing that, then the Sheep are not yet ready for us. Let's go back to building our movement and educating more people.

Let's do this the right way!

Then you do that...given an intellectual division of labor with any movement, it is necessary for people not to be discouraged from what they are best at. For many, this happens to be electoral politics. Not many of us are Rothbards who are capable of immense academic erudition, coupled with a natural sense of politics and the electoral process.

By all means, read Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, etc etc...check out the Mises Institute (whose president Lew Rockwell actually endorsed Sabrin) at: www.mises.org.

But trying to discourage this natural division of labor and specialization is silly and destructive to the movement. If Sabrin is better than the other candidates, there is nothing un-libertarian about supporting him.

[Flash]

This isn't even confirmed and people are argueing about it.

[stepupnj]

I DO find this quite disturbing. Ron has been asked many times if he would support one of the Republican nominees, and he said NO because none of them uphold Constitutional principles.

How could ANYONE in this movement support McCain under ANY circumstances?

And there is another disturbing thing about the quote:

"As a proud conservative Republican who has donated to, campaigned for, and supported such solid conservatives like Scott Garrett, Steve Lonegan, Jay Webber and Bret Schundler, I will support the Republican Presidential nominee if it is John McCain."

Scott Garrett???? This man is a George Bush rubber stamper who has voted for the war, the Patriot Act, the ban on gay marriage amendment, and against stem cell research. I find this revolting.

[JDouglasFisher]

I'm going to make this extremely and stupidly simple for the handful of silly trolls with no political experiance or savvy, who just don't grasp it...

The choices are:

A.) Accept the fact that Murray has to do what he needs to do to get the republican base energized in order to get elected.

or

B.) Lautenburg wins in November, the movement loses most of its momentum, and you guys can all cry here all day long about how screwed up the system is.

I can't make it any more simple.

Should be noted that its the same 4 people crying and complaining, yet the overwhelming majority of movement supporters actually "GET IT" and have voted "in confidence" by starting to fill up his war chest. $188,000.00 as I write this. Good way to start off the week. I know Murray will appreciate it, and Estabrook is going to keep a close eye on what Murray Does come the 29th.

Goal to beat is the 1.5 Million that Estabrook has invested of her own money into this campaign.

[Archie]

I dont quite get how so many people are "shocked" when they find out that Murray Sabrin and even Ron Paul ARE INFACT POLITICANS trying to use tools to help them stay in gov't that many might see as "waterdown" ,Its ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT. Its just Politics guys no matter how much you dont wanna admit it , Do I like it if Ron Paul Or Sabrin waterdown there rhetoric in order to gain trust from the GOP base? NO I HATE IT also but Again ITS POLITICS!!!!! Do people think this is the fuckin boy scouts club or something LOL!!!!! When I read that people are outraged about Sabrin supporting John McCain first thing I say to myself is Im Glad that they are mad ,but at the end of the day Politics is Politics guys its not just a black and white thing "Lib/Neo-con" were there is only poltical "political bullshit" in that black/white ideology, its also in everything The Libertarian Party/The Constitution Party and even in the so called "Paytriot" mov't There is even Lots and bags of "dirty politics" played out for advantage's .

The Only thing you can do is if you choose to vote in this Fucked up system of ideology's today you gotta pick the person who is the least like a modern "black/White "poltiican" that might be and is Ron Paul or this Sabrin guy thats the best choice ya got.

if ya dont like it ,then protest and dont vote as I and many have done before.. I find it so funny that when ever someone finds out that the person they thought was there "saviour" in politics and find out they "compromise/waterdown" there ideas and actions then they yell out "SCUMBAG" HAHAHHA yes That's What Politics is a SCUMSUCKING FEST and only the Biggest Scumbags make it to the top in this game most of the time...

[Luft97]

I won't support John McCain. period.
I don't care if they crown him god-emperor of mankind.
Scum is scum.

I wish I could vote for you Brent. ;) I will vote for Ron thinking about you tho. :D

[stepupnj]

I'm going to make this extremely and stupidly simple for the handful of silly trolls with no political experiance or savvy, who just don't grasp it...

Wow I find that tone almost as repulsive as the idea of McCain being President (well OK not NEARLY that repulsive).

The idea of these forums is to give everyone a voice. To come down with a holier than thou attitude for people expressing their opinion is not what the Freedom movement is about.

I didn't say that I wouldn't support Sabrin..in fact I will. But it still remains that I find if disturbing that he would voice support for a candidate like McCain. Ron Has never stooped to that level. In fact, I heard Ron once say that the candidate closest to the his own principles is Barack Obama.

Ron is the most principled member of Congress. Principles count, and sticking to them counts even more.

[JS4Pat]

The choices are:

A.) Accept the fact that Murray has to do what he needs to do to get the republican base energized in order to get elected.

or

B.) Lautenburg wins in November, the movement loses most of its momentum, and you guys can all cry here all day long about how screwed up the system is.

I can't make it any more simple.

I did not join this revolution to go back to the old - "It's either "A" or "B" paradigm".

We are creating a "C" option. Build a movement of educated activists who STAND ON SOME BASIC PRINCIPLES.

We can play the game to a certain extent and we can "tone down the rhetorich" but if we go down the road you are suggesting - WE ARE DOOMED - We will soon become the very thing we despise.

As for holding up the fundraising numbers as evidence that people agree with you and not "the 4 of us on this thread" - well I seriously doubt that most of the donors are even aware of Sabrin's McCain endorsment.

BTW - Is it confirmed yet? I am assuming if it were not true - you would have made that known by now.

[TXcarlosTX]

politics is just a game....

WINNING IS THE KEY!!!


hes playing the game to get sheeple reps to vote for him. no biggy

[allyinoh]

I think everyone needs to calm down. This hasn't been confirmed and unless it comes from Sabrin himself I am going to call BS until then.

[JS4Pat]

I think everyone needs to calm down. This hasn't been confirmed and unless it comes from Sabrin himself I am going to call BS until then.

Good Lord - THis was reported on Thursday, February 21st!

With all the Sabrin supporters in this thread - can't someone get a confirmation on this?

Did Sabrin say that he would support John McCain if he is the GOP nominee for president? YES or NO

[priest_of_syrinx]

Whatever.... My parents, who both voted for Ron in the primaries, said that they might vote for McCain because he's the "lesser of two evils".

And look how we did in the primaries after Ron said (with much honorable principle) that he wouldn't support any of the other dumbasses on stage with him. I think we should just let this slide, Murry is a human, and humans can't always do what is right. Ron knows he will vote well, and that's why he endorsed him.

[JS4Pat]

And look how we did in the primaries after Ron said (with much honorable principle) that he wouldn't support any of the other dumbasses on stage with him. I think we should just let this slide, Murry is a human, and humans can't always do what is right. Ron knows he will vote well, and that's why he endorsed him.
I really can't believe what I am reading in this thread. If this is the prevailing wisdom within the Ron Paul movement, then my interest and activism may be coming to an end very soon.

I will not invest my vote, time and money into something like this.

[familydog]

The question is how we mix ideological purity, at the same time doing things in a pragmatic way. Every movement has this problem. Ultimately they go too much one way or the other and end up screwing it all up. I'm curious to see where this one will go.

[seeker1]

I really can't believe what I am reading in this thread. If this is the prevailing wisdom within the Ron Paul movement, then my interest and activism may be coming to an end very soon.

I will not invest my vote, time and money into something like this.

I wouldn't call it wisdom, by any stretch. :cool:

It is a drag to get to this point.

[Patriot123]

This isn't true. The article was taken down. Have a look.

[JS4Pat]

This isn't true. The article was taken down. Have a look.

Thank God - but it still gives me reason to pause because of the number of people who were willing to accept a McCain endorsement by a "Ron Paul Republican".

I really hope it is a small minority in this movement who believe such an action would be acceptable.

[Flash]

Speaking of Murray Sabrin-- How is his campaign doing against his competitors? Is there an update?

[Teflon Master]

Can this thread be deleted due to the fact it is based on unsubstantiated rumor.

[RCA]

Can this thread be deleted due to the fact it is based on unsubstantiated rumor.

I second this.

[Liberté]

read it carefully.
again.
It's a GOP loyalty card on stake.
and...He is not Ron Paul.

Supporting McCain is not EVIL or WRONG! In fact it is necessary until 2012. 4 years of Obama would equal 3 Supreme Court Justices and hundreds of District Judges that do not believe in the Constitution. If you support the Constitution you are basically stuck voting for the McCain stop gap.

Not voting for McCain is just being stubborn, which is fine, but then you can not complain when the Constitution is shredded by Obama. Sure it will get more tattered under a McCain Presidency, but it will not be totally ruined, which makes a difference.

The movement lives to fight another day! By 2012 hopefully we will have a few more congressman, a slew of new state reps, and a ton of new ward and precinct GOP chairs...

[Mesogen]

Dude, McWar wants to bring it on with Iran in a big way.

On second thought. It doesn't really make that much of a difference if McCain, Hillary, or Obama get in. We're equally screwed.