Township doesn't like my RP sign

[MaxMink]

Hello fellow Ron Paul supporters! I just received a letter in the mail today from Manheim Township (Lancaster County) telling me I need to take down my 4X8 Ron Paul sign, located on my front porch. Here is exactly what the letter states:

Re: Display of Illegal Issue Sign, 2631 Lititz Pike

Mr. Mink,

It was observed that an oversized election sign has been placed at 2631 Lititz Pike. Under the Manheim Township Sign Ordinance this election sign is considered an "Issue Sign" which by definition in the Manheim Township Zoning Ordinance (section 1802.15) is:

"A temporary sign that directs attention to an opinion of a public or private nature, such as, but not limited to, a community, social, or religious issue".

An issue sign located on a residential zoned parcel is limited to 6 square feet, 6 feet in height and a setback of 10 feet from the right-of-way (Manheim Township Zoning Ordinance Article 18 Table 2). One issues sign (per candidate or issue) is permitted per street frontage with a maximum of 2 signs (per candidate or issue) per lot. This sign exceeds the permitted size.

This infomational letter is being sent with the understanding that you will take necessary corrective action in order to conform to the Manheim Township Sign Ordinance and such issue sign(s) will conform to the size and setback requirements outlined in Article 18 or the Manehim Township Zoning Ordinance.

If you have any questions concerning the Manheim Township sign regulations, you may make contact with me at 717-569-6406, Ext 126.

Sincerely,
Manheim Township Commissioners

Benjamin L. Roth
Sign Code Official

Pc: Donald D. Forry, Director of Code Compliance
Lisa A. Douglas, Director of Planning and Zoning
Zoning File


I know that the sign is definitely further back from the street than 10 feet so I'm good on that front. Does anyone know if there is anything I can do to fight this BS short of cutting the sign in half and having two signs? I know that would probably not fly from the Township's perspective, but I'm a red-head and spite is in my genes :-).

[Agora]

two signs will do, closely attached :D

[jumpyg1258]

If it were me, I would do exactly that and wait for them to send you a nastygram about having two signs.

[Deborah K]

What about your first amendment rights to freedom of speech? I would put a call in to the ACLU, they love this sort of thing.

[molly_pitcher]

IS it a home-made sign?

[MaxMink]

Its not a home made sign, its straight from the campaign. A member of our local meet up group brought a bunch back with him from NH and I was fortunate enough to get one.

[kathy88]

I think the ACLU thing is a great idea. They eat this shit up.

[Chowdah]

What about your first amendment rights to freedom of speech? I would put a call in to the ACLU, they love this sort of thing.

I agree. ACLU is a good bet.

Political speech is the most sacred form of expression under the First Amendment. The townships ordinance may itself be unlawful.

[MaxMink]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but how would I go about contacting the ACLU? Do they have regional offices? I guess I should just look it up online, but if anyone knows I'd appreciate your assistance. Thanks guys!

[Chowdah]

you might start here: http://www.aclupa.org

http://www.aclupa.org/images/logo.gif

[ronpaulhawaii]

We have been through this many times, starting with the original signbomb of July 4th, 2007

You may want to read this "legal opinion" from a Hawaii AG to the Guv
http://hawaii.gov/ag/main/publications/opinions/1993_1999/96-04.pdf



A law that contains a content-based restriction is presumptively unconstitutional. City of Renton vPlaytime Theatres, Inc., 475 U.S. 41, 46-47, 106 S. Ct. 925, 928, 89 L. Ed. 2d 29, 37 (1986).




Therefore, we believe that section 445-112(11) will be held by a court to be unconstitutional under both the United States and Hawaii constitutions and that the statute is unenforceable in a court of law.


The ACLU has helped in some cases, I don't know how to contact them but imagine the phone book.

We are with you :)

[wowabunga]

If it were me, I would do exactly that and wait for them to send you a nastygram about having two signs.


Stinks how you can't do as you please on your own property.

[luke-gr]

short of cutting the sign in half and having two signs? .

LOL! That was EXACTLY my thought. Problem is, they PROBABLY have some rule that you can only have one. Good luck!

EDIT: I just re-read your post. Yep, Id post them about six inches apart. LOL! This is fun...now I better read the rest of the thread.

[Cleaner44]

They know that your sign is not an issue sign. Definetly cut in half and have them seperated by 1/8 of an inch.

Fight fire with fire and delay, stall and make small changes as needed but do not remove your sign.

[Fyretrohl]

Actually, this one may be tougher. They are not saying he can't have a Ron Paul sign. They are merely saying how BIG it can be.

[BravoSix]

Actually, this one may be tougher. They are not saying he can't have a Ron Paul sign. They are merely saying how BIG it can be.


Which is still unconstitutional.

What I would do is tell them to go to hell. Contact the ACLU and see if they'll help. Either way, I'd ignore it. Let them cite you, take a hearing, and fight it at the Magistrate. If you lose there, appeal to the county court.

I was a police officer in a township in northeast PA for 6 years, and the Magistrate in my township would never have upheld such a blatant attack on our rights. Your local Judge may be different....

[freesoul]

Did you have to sign for the letter? If not then throw it in the trash and wait for a registered letter. It never came.

pics?? :D

[GoApe4RonPaul2008]

Hello fellow Ron Paul supporters! I just received a letter in the mail today from Manheim Township (Lancaster County) telling me I need to take down my 4X8 Ron Paul sign, located on my front porch. Here is exactly what the letter states:

Re: Display of Illegal Issue Sign, 2631 Lititz Pike

Mr. Mink,

It was observed that an oversized election sign has been placed at 2631 Lititz Pike. Under the Manheim Township Sign Ordinance this election sign is considered an "Issue Sign" which by definition in the Manheim Township Zoning Ordinance (section 1802.15) is:

"A temporary sign that directs attention to an opinion of a public or private nature, such as, but not limited to, a community, social, or religious issue".

An issue sign located on a residential zoned parcel is limited to 6 square feet, 6 feet in height and a setback of 10 feet from the right-of-way (Manheim Township Zoning Ordinance Article 18 Table 2). One issues sign (per candidate or issue) is permitted per street frontage with a maximum of 2 signs (per candidate or issue) per lot. This sign exceeds the permitted size.

This infomational letter is being sent with the understanding that you will take necessary corrective action in order to conform to the Manheim Township Sign Ordinance and such issue sign(s) will conform to the size and setback requirements outlined in Article 18 or the Manehim Township Zoning Ordinance.

If you have any questions concerning the Manheim Township sign regulations, you may make contact with me at 717-569-6406, Ext 126.

Sincerely,
Manheim Township Commissioners

Benjamin L. Roth
Sign Code Official

Pc: Donald D. Forry, Director of Code Compliance
Lisa A. Douglas, Director of Planning and Zoning
Zoning File


I know that the sign is definitely further back from the street than 10 feet so I'm good on that front. Does anyone know if there is anything I can do to fight this BS short of cutting the sign in half and having two signs? I know that would probably not fly from the Township's perspective, but I'm a red-head and spite is in my genes :-).


Fight it. Dont back down. Contact the aclu in your area. I will get some more information. Which state do you live in?

[supaco0p05]

Paint your whole house 1 big RP sign...!

[satchelmcqueen]

Call the ACLU. In the mean time, leave the sign up. If worse comes to worse, cut it in halve and space the 2 halves 1/16th of an inch apart. Im sure nowhere in the ordinace it says anything about how close 2 signs can be. Also run a letter to the editor in your newspaper which should be free and put them in a bad light. It is YOUR property and freedom of speech.

[kathy88]

Hey Max, did you catch this in your local? Perhaps some of the reasoning behind your being singled out?

http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/217177

I'm in PA as well.

[abruzz0]

Petty ass rules

[benny215]

DUDE!!! I drive by your house all the time, that sign is bad ass. its so big it's impossible not to look at it when you drive by. Excellent spot.



Hello fellow Ron Paul supporters! I just received a letter in the mail today from Manheim Township (Lancaster County) telling me I need to take down my 4X8 Ron Paul sign, located on my front porch. Here is exactly what the letter states:

Re: Display of Illegal Issue Sign, 2631 Lititz Pike

Mr. Mink,

It was observed that an oversized election sign has been placed at 2631 Lititz Pike. Under the Manheim Township Sign Ordinance this election sign is considered an "Issue Sign" which by definition in the Manheim Township Zoning Ordinance (section 1802.15) is:

"A temporary sign that directs attention to an opinion of a public or private nature, such as, but not limited to, a community, social, or religious issue".

An issue sign located on a residential zoned parcel is limited to 6 square feet, 6 feet in height and a setback of 10 feet from the right-of-way (Manheim Township Zoning Ordinance Article 18 Table 2). One issues sign (per candidate or issue) is permitted per street frontage with a maximum of 2 signs (per candidate or issue) per lot. This sign exceeds the permitted size.

This infomational letter is being sent with the understanding that you will take necessary corrective action in order to conform to the Manheim Township Sign Ordinance and such issue sign(s) will conform to the size and setback requirements outlined in Article 18 or the Manehim Township Zoning Ordinance.

If you have any questions concerning the Manheim Township sign regulations, you may make contact with me at 717-569-6406, Ext 126.

Sincerely,
Manheim Township Commissioners

Benjamin L. Roth
Sign Code Official

Pc: Donald D. Forry, Director of Code Compliance
Lisa A. Douglas, Director of Planning and Zoning
Zoning File


I know that the sign is definitely further back from the street than 10 feet so I'm good on that front. Does anyone know if there is anything I can do to fight this BS short of cutting the sign in half and having two signs? I know that would probably not fly from the Township's perspective, but I'm a red-head and spite is in my genes :-).

[rmholla]

I would send a letter back telling them you will see them in front of the Supreme Court. LOL

Let them know you plan to fight it ALL THE WAY. Does the township really have the money to take the matter to court? Tell them you have already contacted the ACLU.

I'd make a big stink about it locally too. Write letters to the editor, call local talk radio shows, and such.

-

[tribute_13]

Hey Max, did you catch this in your local? Perhaps some of the reasoning behind your being singled out?

http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/217177

I'm in PA as well.

Instead of tagging his name, tag:

Ron Paul doesn't like graffiti, but I like Ron Paul. 2008

That way people don't think he advocates destruction of property. Hell, I'd do it.

[revolutionman]

Did you have to sign for the letter? If not then throw it in the trash and wait for a registered letter. It never came.

pics??

i think thats the best advice!!

follow the letter of the law to frustrate the shit out of your local fascists until november.

Tell them its not a sign, its a curtain!! See how long you can screw with them until they really go after you, and then sick the ACLU on them. even if the ACLU doesn't back you up, you should still stall until the last possible moment before you take it down.

[soapmistress]

I would go buy field chalk like they use for football games and decorate my lawn into one big sign.

[pepperpete1]

DUDE!!! I drive by your house all the time, that sign is bad ass. its so big it's impossible not to look at it when you drive by. Excellent spot.

I assumed the sign was erected on Lititz and after looking it up, I believe it is highway 501. Is this correct?

If it is, then just contact http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Internet/web.nsf/HomepageWithFooter?OpenFrameSet

Ask them if you are required to have a permit and what the restrictions for their department are.

I spent 2 hours researching your township ordinances and could only find where they held a public hearing to change the wording of the election and issues signs.
They just deleted the word election and were to change the definition of "issue".
I could not find the minutes that stated the definition.

[Roxi]

u should do this

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/177/house1xe7.jpg

[MaxMink]

Hey everybody, sorry for being silent so long. I thought I'd get an email saying someone replied to this thread. I still have my big sign up, but the wind took my two smaller signs away. So far, knock on wood, I haven't heard anything from the township since thier initial letter. It did not come certified so I can definitely say I never got the warning, unless they check online and see how I've complained about their stupidity. Oh well, my signs not going anywhere! I'm definitely planning on fighting this if need be. Thanks for all of your support everybody!

[Perry]

two signs will do, closely attached :D

:)

[tmg19103]

Township can constitutionally limit the size of signs as long as it a "reasonable" restriction and the ordinance is content neutral - that is it does not prohibit types of signs. They can, in a content neutral ordinance, limit signs by size, place and manner. Limiting signs to 6x6 has beeen declared constitutional .

However, if any part of the ordinance is content based - if it refers to the content of signs and gives some types (say real esate over political signs) benefits, it is unconstitutional on its face despite a reasonable size restriction and the whole ordinance is illegal.

Post the ordinance and I'll tell you if it has a leg to stand on as I am going through this per the below. What the article does not say is I threatened litigation behind the seens and that got the township jumping.

http://www.mainlinetimes.com/WebApp/appmanager/JRC/SingleWeekly?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pg_wk_article&r21.pgpath=%2FMLT%2FNews&r21.content=%2FMLT%2FNews%2FTopStoryList_Story_183 6250

[Dave39168]

Township can constitutionally limit the size of signs as long as it a "reasonable" restriction and the ordinance is content neutral - that is it does not prohibit types of signs. They can, in a content neutral ordinance, limit signs by size, place and manner. Limiting signs to 6x6 has beeen declared constitutional .

However, if any part of the ordinance is content based - if it refers to the content of signs and gives some types (say real esate over political signs) benefits, it is unconstitutional on its face despite a reasonable size restriction and the whole ordinance is illegal.

Post the ordinance and I'll tell you if it has a leg to stand on as I am going through this per the below. What the article does not say is I threatened litigation behind the seens and that got the township jumping.

http://www.mainlinetimes.com/WebApp/appmanager/JRC/SingleWeekly?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pg_wk_article&r21.pgpath=%2FMLT%2FNews&r21.content=%2FMLT%2FNews%2FTopStoryList_Story_183 6250


Visual Clutter???? Visual Clutter???? This guy is talking about visual clutter vs. free speech...

"We're trying to balance free speech with visual clutter."
-MARK TAYLOR LM COMMISSIONER

Are you kidding me... Since when does the need for "visual neatness" balance with my rights for FREE SPEECH?????????

I think visual clutter is a huge issue! Ron Paul should talk about it more on the campaign trail... because its such a problem! I'd sacrifice a little free speech without second thought, if we could just get rid of some of this visual clutter... I mean, that's what our founders would want right? Our country is based on... minimal visual clutter!
:rolleyes: