Any baby-boomers in here? I have some questions about the 60s..

[armand61685]

Why is it that your generation in the 60s and early 70s were so effectively anti-war, even to the point of bringing the troops home from Vietnam? What is the difference? I see the iraq war today as the same exact thing, but the Y generation (my gen) isn't doing much and isn't going crazy over globalism and war. Is it because the Vietnam war was that much worse?

It doesn't matter if you were a part of the flower hippie movement back then, but I'm sure you had some friends that were.

I'm just disappointed with the numbness of society today.

[Bossobass]

1. The Vietnam war followed the brutal murder of Kennedy. Love him or hate him, none of us believed he deserved to be murdered while sitting next to his wife, and none of us bought the Oswald did it with a Manlicher Carcano bolt action POS.

2. We grew up with very little compared to the young people of today. We had no video games. We had only 3 channels and PBS on TV. We had no computers or the internet. We had no cell phones. No VHS.

3. We were raised by parents who grew up during the Great Depression and fought in WWII and/or Korea. War propaganda was EVERYWHERE in Hollywood, radio and TV. Stories of surviving the depression were part of everyday life.

4. We were forced to dress the same, tuck in our shirt tails, raise our hand to speak, never question authority, have our hair cut at the same barber shop, mind our manners, do as we were told and no back talk.

5. We were pissed off that our parents did nothing about the President's murder. We were pissed off that Johnson escalated the war under false pretenses. We were especially pissed off that we had to face the war, whether we were for it or against it, because there was a draft. We were pissed off that the excuse, The Domino Theory, was a childish bucket of crapola that no one with half a brain ever bought.

6. With many less options and distractions, we were very well read. We hung out together and exchanged ideas, face to face. We had a common enemy, and we were hip to their bullshit. We knew that the CIA was nothing more than a corporate goon squad that fomented wars and overthrew 'unfriendly' governments for Exxon.

7. Our dissent grew and our motto became 'hell no, we won't go'.

8. At the same time, blacks had had enough of living in squalor, being lynched, being denied opportunities and being denied the right to vote.

It all came to a head as the establishment continued to murder or attempt to murder, or imprison our leaders. Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, George Wallace, etc. The FBI spent most of it's resources wiretapping, infiltrating and harassing American citizens.

You had the part of us who were brainwashed by the Leave It To Beaver and John Wayne images who joined up to fight in Vietnam, who willingly joined the establishment. Then you had those of us who revolted against that brainwash and you had pissed off blacks.

We weren't about to let the hypocrites who were shoveling Freedom and Democracy while they illegally invaded Vietnam and killed millions of innocents abroad and at the same time practiced slavery through the draft and denied blacks the right to vote, all the while killing our leaders and unleashing hell on our demonstrations, herd us into their bidding without a fight.

It came to a head when the Ohio National Guard fired live rounds into a crowd of demonstrators at Kent State, killing four teenage citizens.

Still, the bottom line is that despite our huge and many times violent protests, despite the fact that 76% of Americans wanted out of Vietnam, we pressured Johnson daily, making him a prisoner in the White House, to the point that he refused to run for a second term, we burned cities to the ground, stopped colleges from functioning at all and many other things...we stayed in Vietnam for 10 years. 10 years!

Afterward, they took the dollar off the Bretton-Woods gold standard, caused unprecedented inflation/recession cycles, faked oil shortages that drove the price from $1.40 to $40, successfully tied the dollar to oil and proceeded to run up $9 trillion in debt, loot the SS Trust Fund into insolvency, etc., etc., etc.

The powers that be proceed with their plans while we bang heads in the trenches with the grunts. They are never mentioned, let alone caught and convicted. The Fed is at the bottom of the list of polled Americans as to who or what are the root causes of our economic woes, while they ARE the root cause.

It certainly would have been nice to see the young people rally behind RP instead of Obama. It breaks my heart.

Bosso

[fedup100]

Why is it that your generation in the 60s and early 70s were so effectively anti-war, even to the point of bringing the troops home from Vietnam? What is the difference? I see the iraq war today as the same exact thing, but the Y generation (my gen) isn't doing much and isn't going crazy over globalism and war. Is it because the Vietnam war was that much worse?

It doesn't matter if you were a part of the flower hippie movement back then, but I'm sure you had some friends that were.

I'm just disappointed with the numbness of society today.

The Y generation has never seen a draft. As soon as the swooning asshats put Obama Hussein into office, you will see a draft and it will include the swooning idot girls that put him there. They will drag their silly butts over to Iraq and blow their heads off.

The boys that died in Nam had no choice but to go. The anti-war hippies, like the Rainbow people got their asses out of the house and into the streets and took it back. Something we just can't bring ourselves to do today.

[freelance]

1. The Vietnam war followed the brutal murder of Kennedy. Love him or hate him, none of us believed he deserved to be murdered while sitting next to his wife, and none of us bought the Oswald did it with a Manlicher Carcano bolt action POS.

2. We grew up with very little compared to the young people of today. We had no video games. We had only 3 channels and PBS on TV. We had no computers or the internet. We had no cell phones. No VHS.

3. We were raised by parents who grew up during the Great Depression and fought in WWII and/or Korea. War propaganda was EVERYWHERE in Hollywood, radio and TV. Stories of surviving the depression were part of everyday life.

4. We were forced to dress the same, tuck in our shirt tails, raise our hand to speak, never question authority, have our hair cut at the same barber shop, mind our manners, do as we were told and no back talk.

5. We were pissed off that our parents did nothing about the President's murder. We were pissed off that Johnson escalated the war under false pretenses. We were especially pissed off that we had to face the war, whether we were for it or against it, because there was a draft. We were pissed off that the excuse, The Domino Theory, was a childish bucket of crapola that no one with half a brain ever bought.

6. With many less options and distractions, we were very well read. We hung out together and exchanged ideas, face to face. We had a common enemy, and we were hip to their bullshit. We knew that the CIA was nothing more than a corporate goon squad that fomented wars and overthrew 'unfriendly' governments for Exxon.

7. Our dissent grew and our motto became 'hell no, we won't go'.

8. At the same time, blacks had had enough of living in squalor, being lynched, being denied opportunities and being denied the right to vote.

It all came to a head as the establishment continued to murder or attempt to murder, or imprison our leaders. Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, George Wallace, etc. The FBI spent most of it's resources wiretapping, infiltrating and harassing American citizens.

You had the part of us who were brainwashed by the Leave It To Beaver and John Wayne images who joined up to fight in Vietnam, who willingly joined the establishment. Then you had those of us who revolted against that brainwash and you had pissed off blacks.

We weren't about to let the hypocrites who were shoveling Freedom and Democracy while they illegally invaded Vietnam and killed millions of innocents abroad and at the same time practiced slavery through the draft and denied blacks the right to vote, all the while killing our leaders and unleashing hell on our demonstrations, herd us into their bidding without a fight.

It came to a head when the Ohio National Guard fired live rounds into a crowd of demonstrators at Kent State, killing four teenage citizens.

Still, the bottom line is that despite our huge and many times violent protests, despite the fact that 76% of Americans wanted out of Vietnam, we pressured Johnson daily, making him a prisoner in the White House, to the point that he refused to run for a second term, we burned cities to the ground, stopped colleges from functioning at all and many other things...we stayed in Vietnam for 10 years. 10 years!

Afterward, they took the dollar off the Bretton-Woods gold standard, caused unprecedented inflation/recession cycles, faked oil shortages that drove the price from $1.40 to $40, successfully tied the dollar to oil and proceeded to run up $9 trillion in debt, loot the SS Trust Fund into insolvency, etc., etc., etc.

The powers that be proceed with their plans while we bang heads in the trenches with the grunts. They are never mentioned, let alone caught and convicted. The Fed is at the bottom of the list of polled Americans as to who or what are the root causes of our economic woes, while they ARE the root cause.

It certainly would have been nice to see the young people rally behind RP instead of Obama. It breaks my heart.

Bosso

WOW! That was a great summary.

But note that the bottom line is that everything that happened still didn't end the war. That came much later.

[Truth Warrior]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generations_(book)

[molly_pitcher]

Slightly off topic-

On that 70's show, Hyde said that the three branches of government were the military, cooperate and Hollywood.

I love Hyde.

[integrity]

1. It certainly would have been nice to see the young people rally behind RP instead of Obama. It breaks my heart.

Bosso


wow, great post!

[LEK]

Why is it that your generation in the 60s and early 70s were so effectively anti-war, even to the point of bringing the troops home from Vietnam? What is the difference? I see the iraq war today as the same exact thing, but the Y generation (my gen) isn't doing much and isn't going crazy over globalism and war. Is it because the Vietnam war was that much worse?

It doesn't matter if you were a part of the flower hippie movement back then, but I'm sure you had some friends that were.

I'm just disappointed with the numbness of society today.

There was a draft so you HAD to go.

[armand61685]

Great post, Bossobass.

[klamath]

The people in charge know it was the draft that drove the huge anti war effort in the 60's and 70's and that is exactly why they are forcing the whole burden of this war on the shoulders of the same servicemen. If you make the same 300,000 keep going over and over it doesn't spread the anger into more families. Our servicemen and women have seen more combat that any other servicemen of all time.

[FreeTraveler]

Thanks, BossoBass, you did a great job. :)

On a related note, THIS is why I get so pissed off at the young ones on here that blame everything on the "old people."

Sure, most of our generation was co-opted, but look at the youth vote Obama's getting. Until you've stood across the line from a National Guardsman, probably a neighbor, who's "cocked & locked" and looking for an excuse to put you six feet under for protesting an unjust war, you will have NO IDEA what we went through, or the struggle we're facing in the near future.

Some of us have "been there, done that, and bought the teeshirt," yet you think all we have to contribute is our stupid votes for McCain.

[virgil47]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

[Brian4Liberty]

Why is it that your generation in the 60s and early 70s were so effectively anti-war, even to the point of bringing the troops home from Vietnam? What is the difference? I see the iraq war today as the same exact thing, but the Y generation (my gen) isn't doing much and isn't going crazy over globalism and war. Is it because the Vietnam war was that much worse?

It doesn't matter if you were a part of the flower hippie movement back then, but I'm sure you had some friends that were.

I'm just disappointed with the numbness of society today.

Differences:

1. The Draft (most people don't take action until it threatens them personally and immediately).
2. Not as many American lives lost in Iraq.

Similarity:

Anti-war movement didn't really end Vietnam. It ended under it's own pointless and crushing weight. About the same as how Iraq will end.

[LukeNM]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

Who brainwashed you? We did not have a say in what happened back in the 60’s just like you do not have a say in what is happening now! Get a clue and stop reading all the propaganda. Some of the younger people here blame the boomers for what is happening now; as Ron Paul has said this has been building up for 100 years. They railroaded us just like what they are continuing to do to you ‘Y’ gen’ers. We have been trying to tell you this is the fight of your lives going up against the establishment, but some of you thought it would be a walk in the park. We dropped out because we were not powerful enough to stop them. We are still here joining with you now to continue the effort! If you say you lived through it -- you must have been wecked!

[armand61685]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

I think that the communal living was a byproduct of their student activism and togetherness. It was a different world for them, IMO.

Regardless, how could you argue with their draft-dodging? Everything the anti-war folks in the 60s supported (peace and civil liberties) is what we would support now, save for socialism.

[FreedomAndLaw]

/??///?

[DaneKirk]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

Could not have said it better myself. Screw the baby boomers, the greatest generation unfortunately gave birth to the worst one. I hope mine is not as dreadful.

[Truth Warrior]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.
< LOL > There are around 78 million boomers. The hippies, druggies and panthers were a submicroscopic percentage of that generation.

[tod evans]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

i too lived during those years and must say that i find your analogy much more askew than the one bosso offers.
although each must be taken as only one viewpoint.....in todays world the big difference is communication and that includes t.v., the net, cell phones and newspapers.
the propaganda foisted on the young in school is much slicker than that that was foisted on us "boomers" but in the end it`s still propaganda and those who choose to research and draw their own conclusions will be better for their efforts.
looking to place "blame"?...........look in the mirrior......that goes not only for us "boomers" but for the kids today also.
don`t like todays world?......or your place in it?....... then get off your butt and work to change it;)

[BillyDkid]

I was born in 1954 and was most definitely a child of the sixties. The war in Vietnam did finally end, but only after 14 or so years and only after virtually everybody in the entire country couldn't take it anymore. It definitely was a different time - riots in the streets of all major cities, all sorts of crazy stuff. What really amazes me is this - what babyboomers turned into. We are far bigger hand wringers and fretters than our parents ever were. There is virtually nothing we are not hysterical about. It is we baby boomers who brought you such treats as "Zero Tolerance" and political correctness. We treat our kids like fragile pieces of china - I'm just as guilty in some respects. I would be filled with horror if my son ever did a fraction of insane stuff I did. I think the current generation is far more sane than we ever were and look at the mess we will be leaving you to clean up. Honestly, my personal view of my generation is that we are largely a generation of dicks.

[angelatc]

It certainly would have been nice to see the young people rally behind RP instead of Obama. It breaks my heart.

Bosso

Mine too. :(

[liberteebell]

Differences:

1. The Draft (most people don't take action until it threatens them personally and immediately).
2. Not as many American lives lost in Iraq.

Similarity:

Anti-war movement didn't really end Vietnam. It ended under it's own pointless and crushing weight. About the same as how Iraq will end.


Agree.

Do you remember the controversy over the graphic war photos that were shown on the nightly news and Life Magazine and such and how it was really the first time that real-time, graphic war images were shown to the public? Remember kids, there was no internet or cable teevee back then.

In contrast, this war seems to be sanitized in the mainstream; even the language (collateral damage) is sanitized. We don't even see the flag draped coffins returning from the war.

Even so, there is a large anti-war sentiment in the general public but I think it has moved from the streets and onto the internet. I would like to see it return to the streets and locally, several of us plan to do just that before the booosh admin outright bans anti-war protests.

[Dr.3D]

I have to wonder what choice this generation will make when the draft is again imposed.
I had a friend in the draft board who told me I was coming up next in line by my birth date.
I decided rather than be drafted into the army, I would join the military branch I would rather be in. A few weeks later, there was a knock on my door. It was some fellows who had come to take me down to get my physical because I had not reported after being sent a letter to do so.
I pulled out my wallet and removed my military ID card and while showing it to them, said... "I see the left hand of the government still doesn't know what the right hand is doing."
They left after seeing I was not going to have to report for my draft physical after all. A couple of weeks later, I was in basic training. I felt better knowing it was my choice rather than the choice of the government which branch of the military I as in.

Some who were up for the draft, left the country and lived in Canada. It is interesting how after the war was over, they were allowed to come back with amnesty. Sometimes I wonder if I had made the correct decision, joining the military rather than going to Canada.

What people really need to understand is, the people of this country don't make the decisions as to what is going to happen. The government makes the decisions! Since the end of the Vietnam war, I have been rather apathetic about politics in general, because I believed and mostly still do, no matter what you vote for, what the government wants is what will happen.

This is the first time since I was honorably discharged I have ever given any money to a candidate running for a political office. I actually thought perhaps this time around, we actually had a chance to change the direction this country was heading. Now after all is said and done to this point, I still wonder if there will ever be a chance to turn this government around and back toward a 'government by the people and for the people' rather than a government for the government by the government.

What is this generation going to do to change what has been happening for the past one hundred years? I gave it a try back in the 60s and now doubt there is any way to turn it around. Look at who has control! Certainly not the people of the United States.

I notice how most of the time, when the flag is mentioned, they call it the American Flag. I wonder if this is a way of getting us used to the idea of a NAU. I always thought our flag was the flag of the United States of America, not some kind of an American flag. When they started calling our flag an American flag, I thought of a flag with a maple leaf on it and an eagle from Mexico and some stars and stripes. People better get their heads back on straight and start calling our flag what it is. It is no American flag, but the flag of the United States of America. When I was visiting Mexico, I asked the people there if they were Americans, they answered saying they thought they were. When I visited Canada, they also claimed to be Americans. All the people who live on this continent are Americans, the people in this country are Citizens of the United States of America, one country on the American continent.

BTW: it wasn't the hippies who were spitting on me and calling me a baby killer.

[sam1952]

I was born in 1952. Both Bossobass and virgil47 are correct in their assessments though I wouldn’t paint all peace loving hippies with the same brush as virgil47, but what he types is true. I remember a faction of youth calling for radical violence. The term Yippie was coined.

The draft as others have mentioned was the biggest motivator of the youth. I was eligible for the draft the last year of the lottery. I will always remember the day of the lottery for my year. Imagine two big cages filled with bingo balls. One cage full of dates the other full of numbers. They would spin the cages then draw a ball from each. If the date was your birthday the corresponding number became your number in the draft. At the peak of the was I think they were drafting into the high 200’s my year I think they drafted into the 80’s. This was a long time ago and my memory may be fuzzy but I think it’s pretty close.

Imagine being in high school faced with the possibility of being drafted. Knowing kids who had graduated, just like you, that you played ball with just a couple of summers ago. Then hearing that they were killed in action. Brothers, cousins, friends, all were affected. That was a big motivator for protest.

America love it or leave it……….. Make love not war………… two different bumper stickers of the era.

[Bossobass]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

Still watching those Leave It to Beaver re-runs, I see.

Bosso

[Truth Warrior]

"What if they held a war, and nobody came?" ( anti-draft 60's slogan )

[Bossobass]

I was born in 1952. Both BossBass and virgil47 are correct in their assessments though I wouldn’t paint all peace loving hippies with the same brush as virgil47, but what he types is true. I remember a faction of youth calling for radical violence. The term Yippie was coined.

The draft as others have mentioned was the biggest motivator of the youth. I was eligible for the draft the last year of the lottery. I will always remember the day of the lottery for my year. Imagine two big cages filled with bingo balls. One cage full of dates the other full of numbers. They would spin the cages then draw a ball from each. If the date was your birthday the corresponding number became your number in the draft. At the peak of the was I think they were drafting into the high 200’s my year I think they drafted into the 80’s. This was a long time ago and my memory may be fuzzy but I think it’s pretty close.

Imagine being in high school faced with the possibility of being drafted. Knowing kids who had graduated, just like you, that you played ball with just a couple of summers ago. Then hearing that they were killed in action. Brothers, cousins, friends, all were affected. That was a big motivator for protest.

America love it or leave it……….. Make love not war………… two different bumper stickers of the era.

Good post...

Imagine, indeed. It was hell to be next in line for the meat grinder. Take the hill...give the hill back, over and over for a decade while Exxon, the arms dealers and the Fed got filthy rich and grew in power.

I disagree somewhat that the draft was the biggest motivator for demonstration, because being in college was an exemption, as were 'critical skills' and hardship. This is how the Pols kept their kids out of Vietnam.

I was offered a 'critical skills' exemption and refused it because I wanted it made clear I was against the war and not willing to simply avoid it, or worse, profit from it.

As I said, there was a 3rd faction. America, love it or leave it...Hell no, we won't go...and, black power.

The first sprang from brainwash, pure and simple. The second sprang from Bobby's murder, which proved (to the second faction) that they'll stop at nothing when they want war and political choice alternatives are BS. The third sprang from MLK's murder, which proved (to the blacks who, up until then, followed the peaceful approach) that there would be no peaceful march to equality.

It was the big boys who invented Guns and Butter. The people never wanted or needed welfare. The Department of Education was created under Johnson as part of his 'Great Society'. Welfare and education to make the next generations dependent and stupid.

Ask Ron. He was there, on the inside, when these things were having their effect on our economy and our population.

Political correctness, women's rights, welfare, illegal invasions of third world countries (overt or covert), the Cold War, zero tolerance, affirmative action, corporate welfare, trade agreements, the UN, central bank, inflation/recession, credit cards, oil shortage...these are all the machinations of the Rockefellers of the world.

As long as we all blame each other for this BS, we remain diluted and powerless.

The 'draft dodger' stigma that Virgil47 hangs on 'Liberals' like Clinton is another BS story. Cheney, Bush Jr., Giuliani, Romney, Bush Limbaugh, Arnold Schwarzenegger (AWOL from Austrian Army base) , Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Bill Bennet, George Will, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Matt Drudge, Britt Hume, Michael Savage, Chris Matthews, Neil Boortz, and yes...even John Wayne...

None of these war mongers war funders and war cheer leaders have served in the military. All 'dodged the draft' through one loophole or another.

I have much more respect for those of us who bear scars from the battles to end the draft (PROPS TO SEN. MIKE GRAVEL) and all wars than I do for the pro war accusers who slipped through loopholes that their dads created for them.

Bosso

[Enzo]

Why is it that your generation in the 60s and early 70s were so effectively anti-war, even to the point of bringing the troops home from Vietnam? What is the difference? I see the iraq war today as the same exact thing, but the Y generation (my gen) isn't doing much and isn't going crazy over globalism and war. Is it because the Vietnam war was that much worse?

It doesn't matter if you were a part of the flower hippie movement back then, but I'm sure you had some friends that were.

I'm just disappointed with the numbness of society today.

The huge difference is that during Vietnam, the news showed the casualties on a daily basis.

Now, we're so distracted by American Idol or some other bullshit... coupled with the complete lack of any mention or footage of casualties... American or Iraqi.... that the current generation hardly pays any attention to it.

There will be no mass uprising against a war that people aren't paying any attention to.

[liberteebell]

The huge difference is that during Vietnam, the news showed the casualties on a daily basis.

Now, we're so distracted by American Idol or some other bullshit... coupled with the complete lack of any mention or footage of casualties... American or Iraqi.... that the current generation hardly pays any attention to it.

There will be no mass uprising against a war that people aren't paying any attention to.

Ah! So I'm not crazy! Somebody sees the same thing I do. As I posted earlier, this war has been sanitized.

[virgil47]

Bosso et al, I see you're still spreading the leftist propaganda so popular with the lazy anti american youth of the sixties. I was born in 1947 hence the Virgil47 moniker. When I got out of high school in 1965 hippies were just beginning to show up. Most of the youth in my era still had respect for the law and if we wanted to change things we took or tried to take the same tack as Ron Paul. We worked within the system not in the streets blowing up recruiting centers and killing people that had virtually nothing to do with the way our country was being run. We didn't hold our hands out for any freebie that might come around. We worked for our income. As to Billy Clinton he was not only a draft dodger but was also a communist sympathizer. As I said before he just took it one step further than most. He didn't just spout the leftist retoric he tried to live it and we can still see the influences of the propaganda on the Republicrats that we have today. If the hippie/yippie/black panther movements of yesteryear were so correct and pure as you seem to think why aren't we fighting in the streets or simply starting an armed rebellion? Ask yourself ... was Ron Paul the type of person that rioted because he didn't like the government policies of his youth? I think not. He like many of what you so condescendingly call "leave it to beavers" believed in using the constitution to try to change things. We have tried to slowly change our government and we have been waiting for someone of RP's caliber to come along and offer his leadership in making change.

[armand61685]

Good post...

Imagine, indeed. It was hell to be next in line for the meat grinder. Take the hill...give the hill back, over and over for a decade while Exxon, the arms dealers and the Fed got filthy rich and grew in power.

I disagree somewhat that the draft was the biggest motivator for demonstration, because being in college was an exemption, as were 'critical skills' and hardship. This is how the Pols kept their kids out of Vietnam.

I was offered a 'critical skills' exemption and refused it because I wanted it made clear I was against the war and not willing to simply avoid it, or worse, profit from it.

As I said, there was a 3rd faction. America, love it or leave it...Hell no, we won't go...and, black power.

The first sprang from brainwash, pure and simple. The second sprang from Bobby's murder, which proved (to the second faction) that they'll stop at nothing when they want war and political choice alternatives are BS. The third sprang from MLK's murder, which proved (to the blacks who, up until then, followed the peaceful approach) that there would be no peaceful march to equality.

It was the big boys who invented Guns and Butter. The people never wanted or needed welfare. The Department of Education was created under Johnson as part of his 'Great Society'. Welfare and education to make the next generations dependent and stupid.

Ask Ron. He was there, on the inside, when these things were having their effect on our economy and our population.

Political correctness, women's rights, welfare, illegal invasions of third world countries (overt or covert), the Cold War, zero tolerance, affirmative action, corporate welfare, trade agreements, the UN, central bank, inflation/recession, credit cards, oil shortage...these are all the machinations of the Rockefellers of the world.

As long as we all blame each other for this BS, we remain diluted and powerless.

The 'draft dodger' stigma that Virgil47 hangs on 'Liberals' like Clinton is another BS story. Cheney, Bush Jr., Giuliani, Romney, Bush Limbaugh, Arnold Schwarzenegger (AWOL from Austrian Army base) , Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Bill Bennet, George Will, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Matt Drudge, Britt Hume, Michael Savage, Chris Matthews, Neil Boortz, and yes...even John Wayne...

None of these war mongers war funders and war cheer leaders have served in the military. All 'dodged the draft' through one loophole or another.

I have much more respect for those of us who bear scars from the battles to end the draft (PROPS TO SEN. MIKE GRAVEL) and all wars than I do for the pro war accusers who slipped through loopholes that their dads created for them.

Bosso

I don't even view draft dodging as a stigma when it comes to these BS wars..

[armand61685]

Bosso et al, I see you're still spreading the leftist propaganda so popular with the lazy anti american youth of the sixties. I was born in 1947 hence the Virgil47 moniker. When I got out of high school in 1965 hippies were just beginning to show up. Most of the youth in my era still had respect for the law and if we wanted to change things we took or tried to take the same tack as Ron Paul. We worked within the system not in the streets blowing up recruiting centers and killing people that had virtually nothing to do with the way our country was being run. We didn't hold our hands out for any freebie that might come around. We worked for our income. As to Billy Clinton he was not only a draft dodger but was also a communist sympathizer. As I said before he just took it one step further than most. He didn't just spout the leftist retoric he tried to live it and we can still see the influences of the propaganda on the Republicrats that we have today. If the hippie/yippie/black panther movements of yesteryear were so correct and pure as you seem to think why aren't we fighting in the streets or simply starting an armed rebellion? Ask yourself ... was Ron Paul the type of person that rioted because he didn't like the government policies of his youth? I think not. He like many of what you so condescendingly call "leave it to beavers" believed in using the constitution to try to change things. We have tried to slowly change our government and we have been waiting for someone of RP's caliber to come along and offer his leadership in making change.

Didn't the some of founder fathers encourage overthrowing the government and revolution when it time came for it?

[BillyDkid]

The huge difference is that during Vietnam, the news showed the casualties on a daily basis.

Now, we're so distracted by American Idol or some other bullshit... coupled with the complete lack of any mention or footage of casualties... American or Iraqi.... that the current generation hardly pays any attention to it.

There will be no mass uprising against a war that people aren't paying any attention to.That's a very important point. Those in power learned from Vietnam - always to control as much as they can what can get out. Embedding reporters and such - controlling the flow of information. I remember too, every night on the news - video of the killing and dying straight from the rice paddies. The media is controlled now in a way they didn't control it during Vietnam. I fear that same sort of control will take over the internet.

[Brian4Liberty]

Agree.

Do you remember the controversy over the graphic war photos that were shown on the nightly news and Life Magazine and such and how it was really the first time that real-time, graphic war images were shown to the public?

I was pretty young, but I remember the nightly "scorecard" along with the images. How many of our men killed, wounded, MIA, and how many of their's. The coverage is certainly different now. We don't want to count how many Iraqi's we've killed now.

At that time, there were people in the media on the left and the right, just as there are today. The big difference is that back then, they disagreed on the war, the media left fought against it. Today, both the left and right of the media are completely in agreement...attack Iraq, keep it up, attack Iran next.

There was no media consensus back then like there is now. Today, all we have is an Orwellian propaganda machine, driven and controlled by like-minded individuals.

[virgil47]

armand, indeed they did. However the key words in your post are "when it came time for it". Do you believe that now is the time for the streets to run red with the blood of the citizenry? Any armed revolution will destroy the fabric of society in this country for many, many years. Any government formed by an armed overthrow of our current government can not be assumed to be of the constitutional variety. The safest and most constitutional way of getting our country back to the constitution is by using the same methods that were used to move it away from the constitution. That would be through the use of incrementalism in which we slowly but surely elect more and more individuals that actually believe in the constitution. As the new electees begin to reach critical mass the changes back to our roots will occur at an ever increasing pace. This is the choice I believe our founders would have chosen had it been available to them. Any attempt to make large and rapid changes will be met with massive resistance. Unfortunately this resistance will not only come from the powers that be but also from the average citizen because most people resist any disruptions in their lives.

[Truth Warrior]

Didn't the some of founder fathers encourage overthrowing the government and revolution when it time came for it?

"Every generation needs a new revolution." -- Thomas Jefferson

[virgil47]

I think Thomas Jefferson was correct however I don't think he meant all out war because if he did then he supported throwing out the constitution every so often and then coming up with a new form of government. I firmly believe a bloodless revolution is the way to go.

[Bossobass]

If the hippie/yippie/black panther movements of yesteryear were so correct and pure as you seem to think why aren't we fighting in the streets or simply starting an armed rebellion?

I don't seem to think anything in my posts here. I'm just answering the questions posed. Correct? Pure? What the hell are you talking about? I didn't practice civil disobedience as part of any group. I did so as an individual. If there was a demonstration against the war, I may have chose to attend it, based on my own objections.

Yes, I talked to the Brain Police to get their perspectives, but I also met with Dem and Rep Pols to get theirs as well. That doesn't mean I condoned or condemned either of them.

I'm not like you. I've never looked for a pigeon hole to fit into. I'm not saying any faction is correct and I know for a fact that none of them is pure. I don't know what the hell a 'leftist' is, nor do I want to know. It's man made pigeon hole BS.


Ask yourself ... was Ron Paul the type of person that rioted because he didn't like the government policies of his youth? I think not. He like many of what you so condescendingly call "leave it to beavers" believed in using the constitution to try to change things. We have tried to slowly change our government and we have been waiting for someone of RP's caliber to come along and offer his leadership in making change.

Ron Paul was never brainwashed into thinking that the Vietnam war was Constitutional or legal or necessary to thwart the evil Red Empire's quest for world domination. I can pretty much guarantee you that Ron has never sported an 'America...love it or leave it' bumper sticker, or called war protesters 'lazy hippies'.

Just a heads up: Leave It To Beaver is a metaphor for the idealized perfect American family depicted on 60s TV and John Wayne for the 'War is good. America is always the good guys in any war. Those who disagree are unAmerican' portrayals. Both are pure flag-waving propaganda.

It's not something I made up and it certainly isn't a device I use to 'condescend' to anyone.

It exists today in the 24 hour a day TV, internet and radio onslaught by Limbaugh, Hannity, Medved, O'Reilly, Coulter, Savage, Beck, Katz, Ingraham, etc., etc.

Ron tried to explain to Hannity that if you disagree with the marketing of current foreign policy and wars, the implication is made that you are somehow unAmerican, you know, like what you're trying to say about the war demonstrators of the 60s, calling them lazy, leftist, murdering, bombing, spit-on-soldiers, anarchy-loving, stoned hippies who ruined America.

In my experience, not one demonstrator I saw ever broke any law, certainly none that warranted death by a military firearm in the hands of National Guard soldiers, with no due process. It was the politicians, military, FBI and local police who broke countless laws, from illegal invasion of a sovereign nation to illegal invasion of American citizen's privacy...and everything in between.

Bosso

[virgil47]

Bosso, you backpedal nicely. Perhaps you should reread you initial posts. As for my pigeon hole seeking the only pigeon hole I've ever sought is the one labeled pro american patriot. If that offends you to bad. Also don't play dumb about the leftist leanings of the anti war movement in the sixties. It is a fact that the leftists in our society acted as agent provocateurs to foment unrest during the sixties. Very few if any of the youngsters involved in the anti war movement had the knowledge or organizational skills needed to start and direct the protests. Think about those days wasn't there always someone who seemed to be in charge and pushing for more and more agressive behavior from the protesters? Of course there was and by the way a mob is simply a bunch of individuals that have banded together for a common purpose. My younger brother was in college in the mid sixties when I was in the military. He would call me and tell me about the trouble makers hanging around the campus. Most of these trouble makers were not even students they just wanted to stir the pot so to speak. They would show up where the students would normally gather and essentially preach sedition. Some of the "true" stories they attempted to use to gather support for their protests were so nonsensical as to be absurd. But as you well know there were always some gullible, easily led young dolts to be found.

[Leslie Webb]

Bosso, you backpedal nicely. Perhaps you should reread you initial posts. As for my pigeon hole seeking the only pigeon hole I've ever sought is the one labeled pro american patriot. If that offends you to bad. Also don't play dumb about the leftist leanings of the anti war movement in the sixties. It is a fact that the leftists in our society acted as agent provocateurs to foment unrest during the sixties. Very few if any of the youngsters involved in the anti war movement had the knowledge or organizational skills needed to start and direct the protests. Think about those days wasn't there always someone who seemed to be in charge and pushing for more and more agressive behavior from the protesters? Of course there was and by the way a mob is simply a bunch of individuals that have banded together for a common purpose. My younger brother was in college in the mid sixties when I was in the military. He would call me and tell me about the trouble makers hanging around the campus. Most of these trouble makers were not even students they just wanted to stir the pot so to speak. They would show up where the students would normally gather and essentially preach sedition. Some of the "true" stories they attempted to use to gather support for their protests were so nonsensical as to be absurd. But as you well know there were always some gullible, easily led young dolts to be found.


Lighten up.l There were lots of leftists protesting, but there were also lots of middle of the road kids who had to choose between getting drafted or finding a way out.

In a demonstration against the war and Spiro Agnew in St. Petersburg FL in 1968 or 69, one of our chants was 'More pay for cops.' None of us got shot.

[Bossobass]

Really, Virgil...you're trying to say that 76% of Americans were misled by covert leftist guerillas, and it's simply absurd.

You were obviously one of the hawks for the Vietnam war and you're still trying to put the majority down to justify the position you took then. You were among the radical minority who justified an illegal invasion and occupation of a third world country with the idiotic notion that all of Asia would fall to Communism 'like dominos' as the justification.

I only attempted to identify your group as one of the factions.

I'm not the least bit offended by your right to your opinion. What deeply offends me is that you hide it behind the self-imposed title of "Pro-American Patriot", and attempt to include Ron Paul in your group.


LBJ, Jan. 10, 1967: We have chosen to fight a limited war in Vietnam in an attempt to prevent a larger war--a war almost certain to follow, I believe, if the Communists succeed in overrunning and taking over South Vietnam by aggression and by force. I believe, and I am supported by some authority, that if they are not checked now the world can expect to pay a greater price to check them later.

GWB, Jan. 10, 2007: The challenge playing out across the broader Middle East is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of our time…In the long run, the most realistic way to protect the American people is to provide a hopeful alternative to the hateful ideology of the enemy – by advancing liberty across a troubled region.

I do indeed think about those days. Yes, there were those who pushed for more aggressive (and illegal) behavior, but it was the Johnson administration more so than anyone else. That fact was glaringly obvious.

A landslide majority wants out. The radical minority says "No. We stay in. For 100 years, if necessary." What do you do about it? That's the question.

Johnson's administration was ended. The draft was ended. The Vietnam war was ended. Nixon's administration was ended.

Today, Bush marches on, undeterred. The draft is returning. The war continues, sending us into a deep recession. Prices continue to climb. The dollar continues to fall. The prospects for the next 4 years look to be more of the same.

The evidence would seem to indicate that demonstration, whichever wing it comes from, whatever form it takes, is far more effective, no?

Bosso

[snaFU]

Bosso, what a load of unadulterated crap. The anarchy loving hippies and their terrorist black panther friends are what destroyed America. They decided that the rule of law wasn't to their self centered drugged up likeing. They prefered to get stoned, screw and blow up and kill innocent american citizens to actually working and respecting the rights of others. They just loved to linger around air ports so they could spit on our returning servicemen. It must have made them feel so cool. These same hippies and lawless young punks became the liberals of today. Seen any pictures of the Clintons in their youth? Check them out. So cool with their fros and bell bottoms. Of course Bill was the consumate draft dodger like so many of his kind. Although he went a little further than most by actually going to and living in a communist country for awhile. The rest of the hippie types just co-opted the communist trappings. Such as communal living, sharing everything and everyone and of course they all expected the rest of the world to support them. They became the useless generation that thinks government should provide for everyones needs for free. They started the welfare give away that is ongoing today. Don't believe me ? Look up and learn. I lived through it so I'm well versed in what happened.

lol you fail kill yourself plz

[Dave Pedersen]

I think the draft was a big difference. Kent state incident where some students got killed. The casualty rate in Vietnam was way bigger than Iraq. Maybe Johnson had enough sense to not seek another term.. and Nixon had enough sense to actually end the damned war.

But I think the draft if it were re-instated would force the young people to stop the war even if it meant marching against armed soldiers here on our campuses. Many draft age men fled to Canada during the Vietnam war and many more served and everybody today doesn't have to make that choice of being a "cowardly traitor" or being hamburger.

We do have some things going for us this time around. We now know Gulf of Tonkin was a lie. Maybe there will be many more brave enough to face down the derision and stand by the sides of those families who are still waiting for the truth about 9/11.

Once we have a draft of course..

[Cowlesy]

Really, Virgil...you're trying to say that 76% of Americans were misled by covert leftist guerillas, and it's simply absurd.

You were obviously one of the hawks for the Vietnam war and you're still trying to put the majority down to justify the position you took then. You were among the radical minority who justified an illegal invasion and occupation of a third world country with the idiotic notion that all of Asia would fall to Communism 'like dominos' as the justification.

I only attempted to identify your group as one of the factions.

I'm not the least bit offended by your right to your opinion. What deeply offends me is that you hide it behind the self-imposed title of "Pro-American Patriot", and attempt to include Ron Paul in your group.



I do indeed think about those days. Yes, there were those who pushed for more aggressive (and illegal) behavior, but it was the Johnson administration more so than anyone else. That fact was glaringly obvious.

A landslide majority wants out. The radical minority says "No. We stay in. For 100 years, if necessary." What do you do about it? That's the question.

Johnson's administration was ended. The draft was ended. The Vietnam war was ended. Nixon's administration was ended.

Today, Bush marches on, undeterred. The draft is returning. The war continues, sending us into a deep recession. Prices continue to climb. The dollar continues to fall. The prospects for the next 4 years look to be more of the same.

The evidence would seem to indicate that demonstration, whichever wing it comes from, whatever form it takes, is far more effective, no?

Bosso


Great post Bosso --- I've been so busy with my job I haven't had a chance to search them out and learning something. I know you're busy traveling and supporting Rep. Paul wherever you need to, but I appreciate it when you throw a post up.

Thanks for the post!

[haigh]

In addition to the draft, a big difference effecting the call to end Iraq involvement is the number killed

Vietnam - 58,217
Iraq to date - 3,970

[Anti Federalist]

Nice exchange.

I would say Bosso has the upper hand here.

Trying to tag the welfare/warfare state on the backs of the "hippies" is pretty disingenuous.

The hippies hated Johnson and rioted at the 68 convention over it, and it was Johnson that delivered those twin monstrosities, at least in their most modern form.

Trying to drag the Clintons into it is even more loopy. Hillary was a "Goldwater Girl".

And "following the law" is all well and good, but what do you do when the law becomes lawless, as it is now.

[virgil47]

Bosso, you are pretty good at twisting things aren't you? You can feign stupidity and lack of understanding of what I said in my posts if you like. However that doesn't make my posts any less true. Where oh where did you get the 76% figure? Certainly not during the sixties. Perhaps by the mid seventies. But even then that sounds way off. As to the leftists in our society in the sixties they didn't need to personally convince all of the protesters all they had to do was plant the ideas in a few stupid but vocal hippies minds. Then the chanting and mob mentality simply grew and became more and more violent. The provocateurs job was really quite easy in those days as most of their targets were thinking with their genitals. All they wanted was piece and love. And no I did not misspell piece. I'm sure folks like Abbie Hoffman and H. Rap Brown were some of your idols back when you were young and impressionable. You are typical of the remnants of the free love generation in that you still blame the military, the police and everyone but yourself for the predicament that you found yourself in. Ask yourself why is it that millions of young people made it through the sixties and seventies without blaming everyone for their problems. Why were they able to go on and lead productive lives without feeling bitter and put upon as you and many of the remnants of the free love generation still do.

[expatriot]

I think the draft was a big difference. Kent state incident where some students got killed...
Read the book
Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapping)
and you will understand how Kent State was one of the triggers for ending the war.


But I think the draft if it were re-instated would force the young people to stop the war even if it meant marching against armed soldiers here on our campuses.
There will be moments, but don't hold your breath waiting on CNN.


We do have some things going for us this time around. We now know Gulf of Tonkin was a lie.
This needs reconsideration - the sheople are just as dense as they were back then.
Evolution has not affected anything cranial -
the same neanderthal mindset that supported VietNam still dominates the American landscape.


Once we have a draft of course..
The only good that comes from a draft is the end of an administration.
Unfortunate, but the successors just continue their other mistakes.


In addition to the draft, a big difference effecting the call to end Iraq involvement is the number killed

Vietnam - 58,217
Iraq to date - 3,970
A Casualty Surge will ensue when the Iranians attack,
sometime prior to January 20 :eek:

[Bossobass]

Americans much more quickly perceived that the Vietnam War was a major problem facing the United States, with over two-thirds naming it as the nation's most important problem within the war's second year.

Also, the press, ever the sensation seekers, demonized the demonstrations, focussing (as Virgil also has in mentioning Abby Hoffman) on the very small minority of radical activists. This created what came to be called the 'Silent Majority', who hated the war but begged off being included with the 'radical flag burners'.

The same device is used today with the term 'Truthers'. The clear majority of Americans don't buy the 9/11 Commission Report, but they'll trip over their tongues distancing themselves from those tin-foil hat wearing radical truthers.

As for myself, Virgil, I stated earlier that I was offered a 'special skills' exemption, which I refused, based on my personal knowledge of how the longest and most atrocious war in US history...which we lost and are still paying for...began and was waged.

Free Love? That's a riot. You prefer to pay for it? :confused::rolleyes::p:D

As with Vietnam, every American with half a brain knows that we weren't in any way threatened by Iraq, they had nothing whatever to do with 9/11, Saddam had a zero tolerance policy against terrorists and there were no WMD.

The differences in how the public dealt with it then vs now are the subject of the thread. Please try to stay on topic.

Bosso