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LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 05:42 PM
Join the people at Liberty Island in organizing the formation of a new independent country based on the principles of freedom and liberty. Share your ideas, research, skills, and knowledge, and help us raise funds to purchase an island and create a government based on the protection of individual liberty - something that is fast disappearing all over the world. If you know anything about infrastructure, economics, development, agriculture, trade, and foreign relations, or just want to join in the discussion, sign up now at www.islandofliberty.com.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 05:49 PM
bump

american.swan
02-20-2008, 05:50 PM
Can you add the total size of each island and an estimate on how many people could realistically live on each one?

american.swan
02-20-2008, 05:51 PM
I think the grassroots should create a coalition of these islands and buy all of them.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 05:52 PM
I think the grassroots should create a coalition of these islands and buy all of them.

Well if you were to do that you would probably want ones that are nearby. These are just examples from around the world.

MusoSpuso
02-20-2008, 05:56 PM
Utilities? Property? Economy? Resources? Law?

Do you have any inkling of the kind of work, knowledge and money it would take to start your own country from scratch?

It's fun imagining stuff like this for a lark but seriously...you can't be serious :rolleyes:

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:02 PM
Utilities? Property? Economy? Resources? Law?

Do you have any inkling of the kind of work, knowledge and money it would take to start your own country from scratch?

It's fun imagining stuff like this for a lark but seriously...you can't be serious :rolleyes:

You don't think we can do this? Our country's founding fathers did this, and we have a much better start then them.

american.swan
02-20-2008, 06:03 PM
Utilities? Property? Economy? Resources? Law?

Do you have any inkling of the kind of work, knowledge and money it would take to start your own country from scratch?

It's fun imagining stuff like this for a lark but seriously...you can't be serious :rolleyes:

Well, I can imagine that Economy and transportion would be the difficult yes. It would take some rich people to get this going.

DarkLaw
02-20-2008, 06:08 PM
Well, I can imagine that Economy and transportion would be the difficult yes. It would take some rich people to get this going.

Nooooo...at about 500 acres of island...priced at a cool $1.5 MILLION, we can allow 1,000 to comfortably live on the island and buy their share for about $1,500. EACH.

That's chump change compared to what we've thrown towards the movement/RP already. And we - the people - have such a vast array of specialties that I think this is very plausible. A few economists, some police officers, firemen, doctors/nurses, communication techs/computer/IT guys, maybe a few lawyers...>FEW<...etc etc.

With a community of 1,000 on the 'MAIN island', they can act as the leaders - the pioneers - set things in motion. Then, we buy up other nearby islands and place them under the law of the 'Main Island' or similar. It'd be just like Hawaii.

Hell, one of the small islands can serve as the trasnportation hub with runways, airport, freight/harbor, etc etc. This isn't THAT hard.
It just SOUNDS difficult. And Monumental.

But as stated - Our founding fathers did it without the help of the internet.
They did it with their sweat and blood, their knowledge and passion.

It'd be a cakewalk - comparably - for us.

phoenixzorn
02-20-2008, 06:08 PM
This is for discussion of purchasing an island and starting our own country. Following are some options:

South America

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/boipeba-island.htm

$2,463

Central America

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/isla-muerto-panama.htm

$4,657 per acre.

Australia

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/clairview-island-australia.htm

$9,104 per acre

Mexico

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/cayo-venado.htm

$3,061

Europe

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/nafsika-island.htm

$9,531

how's the hunting on these?? I'll take 40acres in South America.... Also, we'll have to buy the ENTIRE Island, and get Alodial Title to it - this cannot be a "Real Estate" purchase... it must be bought with gold and silver, and must come with no strings attached... it is OURS and Sovereign... no laws of any other land may apply.

Of course, we'll need a government, and a monetary system, and arrange trade with many countries, and likely be nuked by USA for leaving shortly after filling up the island... but I'm all for moving to a private island.

DarkLaw
02-20-2008, 06:13 PM
Energy concerns will be negligible as well as modern day advances in alternative power sources such as solar and wind turbines have driven the cost down. Within the next year, "nano" solar panels will be debuting and lower that cost even MORE. So low, in fact, that a small private "utility company' wouldn't be out of the question for those with enough capital to start it up.

Can you imagine that? Paying your neighbor the 'Electric Company' for power?

This is all VERY plausible.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:15 PM
Energy concerns will be negligible as well as modern day advances in alternative power sources such as solar and wind turbines have driven the cost down. Within the next year, "nano" solar panels will be debuting and lower that cost even MORE. So low, in fact, that a small private "utility company' wouldn't be out of the question for those with enough capital to start it up.

Can you imagine that? Paying your neighbor the 'Electric Company' for power?

This is all VERY plausible.

Although it takes people like us to make it happen.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:18 PM
... and likely be nuked by USA for leaving shortly after filling up the island... but I'm all for moving to a private island.

Thats the reason why we should do this instead of succeeding a state. No government would have any reason or authorization to threaten, let alone invade, us.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:19 PM
I think this is the best bet.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/boipeba-island.htm

It is the cheapest, and is the largest.
It can hold 25,000 people, which is plenty of room to start with.

phoenixzorn
02-20-2008, 06:20 PM
reason?? a million people expatriate and say FU to the government.... that's reason enough.... hell... it's TREASON according to our current government to have a mass movement for ANYTHING political, financial, or religious...

american.swan
02-20-2008, 06:21 PM
Even at $1500 per person, that is just for the land. (maybe gold would be required like someone suggested)

But there are a lot more cost than just land. Building materials. How would products reach the island?

Lots of logistics issues.

Also, the initial people would have to understand that initially maybe life would be a little old fashion like no toilets. It would be like a step back in time initially. But hopefully the comforts of modern day life could be brought in rather quickly.

It would be expensive.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:22 PM
reason?? a million people expatriate and say FU to the government.... that's reason enough.... hell... it's TREASON according to our current government to have a mass movement for ANYTHING political, financial, or religious...

A couple thousand people to live on an uninhabited island? Come on be serious, this is much safer then choosing a state.

phoenixzorn
02-20-2008, 06:23 PM
I think this is the best bet.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/boipeba-island.htm

It is the cheapest, and is the largest.
It can hold 25,000 people, which is plenty of room to start with.

Remember, we need to have enough farmland to feed everyone on the island... Of course, that's why I get 40 acres... and a little beach-front property, because I'll have the greenhouses set up on that 40 acres that can supply food for 40,000 people... I have technology available that feeds 1,000 people per acre of greenhouses... you want me there. =)

On that note, I think I'll need 100 acres... 40 for the farm, 60 for the hunting... and only more farms surrounding me... and a landowner compact that gives all the farmers the right of first refusal when someone wants to sell their farm land and move to the "big city"... lol

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:23 PM
Even at $1500 per person, that is just for the land. (maybe gold would be required like someone suggested)

But there are a lot more cost than just land. Building materials. How would products reach the island?

Lots of logistics issues.

Also, the initial people would have to understand that initially maybe life would be a little old fashion like no toilets. It would be like a step back in time initially. But hopefully the comforts of modern day life could be brought in rather quickly.

It would be expensive.

Not really, only moderately so. Transporting building goods by boat isn't extremely expensive.

phoenixzorn
02-20-2008, 06:26 PM
Not really, only moderately so. Transporting building goods by boat isn't extremely expensive.

I was just thinking about how expensive it would be to transport enough glass and aluminum to that island to build 40 acres of greenhouse... heh.

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 06:29 PM
Remember, we need to have enough farmland to feed everyone on the island... Of course, that's why I get 40 acres... and a little beach-front property, because I'll have the greenhouses set up on that 40 acres that can supply food for 40,000 people... I have technology available that feeds 1,000 people per acre of greenhouses... you want me there. =)

On that note, I think I'll need 100 acres... 40 for the farm, 60 for the hunting... and only more farms surrounding me... and a landowner compact that gives all the farmers the right of first refusal when someone wants to sell their farm land and move to the "big city"... lol

Wow 100 per acre? I was estimating 6 per acre, since you can feed 8 people per acre by my research. So we can hold a lot of people.

freedominnumbers
02-20-2008, 06:36 PM
I bet we could find enough ocean dumped materials to build up the entire island. I would bet there would be some multinational companies that would sponsor the creation of the island in exchange for certain rights, like a reality TV series.

Maybe GE would install power as some type of prototype test bed.

american.swan
02-20-2008, 06:41 PM
I bet we could find enough ocean dumped materials to build up the entire island. I would bet there would be some multinational companies that would sponsor the creation of the island in exchange for certain rights, like a reality TV series.

Maybe GE would install power as some type of prototype test bed.

Good idea.

EvilEngineer
02-20-2008, 06:42 PM
Well if you guys want help with some draft ideas, and are really SERIOUS, let me know. I'd love to talk in depth with someone about ideas like this. I'm an ocean engineer, so the concept of developing an island nation from scratch, is right up my dream job ally.

AIM: RonPaulEngineer

american.swan
02-20-2008, 06:43 PM
Well if you guys want help with some draft ideas, and are really SERIOUS, let me know. I'd love to talk in depth with someone about ideas like this. I'm an ocean engineer, so the concept of developing an island nation from scratch, is right up my dream job ally.

AIM: RonPaulEngineer

Your going to be valuable.

With all our different expertise we should be able to get this going in a few years.

Plan well or it won't work.

Kludge
02-20-2008, 06:44 PM
I think Jim Jones had an idea similar to this.... ;P

TruePatriot44
02-20-2008, 06:49 PM
Not an island per say, but its not connected to the U.S.

The Northwest Angle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_angle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_angle)

Cali4RonPaul
02-20-2008, 07:14 PM
You couldnt buy any of these islands and form your own country because it would sit within the territorial waters of the nation next to it..

Best would be to source a coral reef that is slightly submerged but far from any islands or territorial waters.. And dredge it to create an artificial island pumping sand and rock from the depths below.. and importing earth from australia or papua new guinea etc. to add more land to it..

UziSprayTF
02-20-2008, 07:48 PM
I'm a structural engineer with construction management, building science and geotechnical experience/education. I also know about silvicuture, and investment derivatives.

<$5000 I am in for SURE! Start a website with pledgers!

ZzzImAsleep
02-20-2008, 07:54 PM
I'll be the first recipient of welfare!

I'm kidding. :P

Wyurm
02-20-2008, 08:21 PM
if we are serious about doing this, count me in. My area of expertise is in building materials.

mackler
02-20-2008, 08:26 PM
We really only need one thing: a good court system that recognizes individual liberties. Once we establish the island as a total free-trade zone, the entrepreneurs will come in droves and the island will be covered in gleaming sky-scrapers within a few years. You'll be able to get your greenhouse-construction supplies at bargain tax-free prices from your choice of local dealers. Of course, you might end up reconsidering your career choice as farmer once you see how much competition you have.

Proton
02-20-2008, 08:42 PM
Remember when the Pirate Bay was looking to become their own country? (Sealand)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/12/pirate_bay_buys_island/

I spent weeks on their Sealand forums arguing with all the people who dreamed of starting a communist 'paradise'.

Things like transportation and utilities should NOT be handled by a government. If you are still on these forums this far into the primaries, hopefully you believe in & trust the free market.

You don't need to be a self-sustaining island where all the food is grown locally either. Free trade and a free market would ensure plenty of food would be available.

I wold definitely consider being involved in a project like this.

Jaykzo
02-20-2008, 08:50 PM
I think Jim Jones had an idea similar to this.... ;P

Ya know, that thought crossed my mind as well.

But then I starting thinking rationally. These two scenarios are outrageously different. We are talking about finding our own land to share, because we share like beliefs.

Jim Jones was an individual who imposed his idea of a perfect society on all those who trusted him enough.

So the idea of comparing this to Jim Jones or Waco is just completely ignorant. I'm not accusing you of being trollish, I can see you're being sarcastic, I'm just putting this out there.

EvilEngineer
02-20-2008, 08:51 PM
To be honest though, in this day in age, the only viable way to do a venture like this is under the pretense of a corporation.

Liberty Island Corp. or something like that.

As much as we'd love to have complete freedom on the island from the get-go, without good leadership to steer the project through to turning a profit and achieving self sufficiency, it would be doomed to failure. This is not to say that we can't run a corporation like a government in and of it's self. But, to begin with it would require a regulatory body and divisions of labor to accomplish a task of this sort.

The balance of power on this would have to be derived from an inverse incentive system. Historically we have problems with leaders because they exploit their positions for personal gain. We would need a balance against this, say, a suspension of all property and some rights and force near poverty level living while in a position of power. The governor hovel, instead of the governor mansion. If at the end of their term, they have produced a net gain for the society, their property and rights are restored with back pay + interest. If they fail to achieve or are kicked out for ethical problems, they lose everything and face possible exile. In this, there are serious incentives to do well, and to NOT screw over the people just for the sake of holding a position of power. Only those who seek the job out of desire to serve, will take it instead of those who exploit it for profit.

SeanEdwards
02-20-2008, 08:54 PM
Truther isle?

No thanks.

NerveShocker
02-20-2008, 08:56 PM
It appears nobody in this thread has read any of Edward Griffens books or seen his videos. He is a big supporter of Ron Paul and spoke at the Tea Party rally. He explains what we're up against and also goes over all the possible solutions. He explained how the only solution that will solve the problem is to fight to get back our country. He went over all the courses of action you can take. Such as giving up, joining the enemy, or running. He even went as far as to joke that you can hide on a island but that it doesn't solve the problem for you and your kids. Running is never a good option you have to stand your ground, not be run out of your homes and country.

garrettwombat
02-20-2008, 08:59 PM
as much as i would love to live on an island with a bunch of my best buds... it wouldnt be practical...

unless we could figure out a way to make money off the island it wouldnt be worth it.

ksuguy
02-20-2008, 09:03 PM
What's to stop any nearby countries from coming in and annexing your island?

nf7mate
02-20-2008, 09:15 PM
What's to stop any nearby countries from coming in and annexing your island?

Your militia.

ejw2076
02-20-2008, 09:15 PM
This is something that I could entertain, but I'm not sure if I could seriously consider it. At first you would need a form of communism to get it going, with a solid time line towards privatization that could not be deviated from. Anarchy is all well and good, but I feel that Minarchy will be necessary to support a standing military for defense. As far as exports, it would probably have to be purely technology. A plethora of computer programming shops, architects taking orders from Dubai, and scientists able to do whatever testing they want without the federal government telling them no. It sounds well and good, but it would be so incredibly difficult to actually get going. And honestly, who's to say that we have to pay for it? We could just move in and take over (we sort of did that to the Native Americans,) but I'm sure there would be some casualties.

mkeller
02-20-2008, 09:18 PM
Boipeba would be a great place! I personally wouldn't be able to take part any time soon, but I'd definitely buy a few acres in four years or so!

This has been brought up before, and someone gave a good idea for how to make money off the island. Boipeba has been surveyed to build a hotel/resort on; and it's a beautiful place. If you build a resort, tourists would come. In the other thread, they suggested having a "foreigners tax" that you'd charge the tourists - with enough of them, you wouldn't need to tax the citizens at all, to keep the tiny government running. And $10 Million isn't really that much, when you consider how much we've been able to raise for Ron - much better than invading it.

And as for the detractors - all of us who don't move to the island would still have to keep fighting for liberty in America. But if things get too bad, and we end up with a total police state, it would certainly be nice to have someplace to move to!

nf7mate
02-20-2008, 09:19 PM
At first you would need a form of communism to get it going,

No, you wouldn't. Really. You wouldn't.

Cali4RonPaul
02-20-2008, 09:30 PM
What's to stop any nearby countries from coming in and annexing your island?

Thats actually happened before..

The Republic of Minerva was set up in 1972 as a libertarian new-country project by Nevada businessman Michael Oliver. Oliver's group conducted dredging operations at the Minerva Reefs, a shoal located in the Pacific Ocean south of Fiji. They succeeded in creating a small artificial island, but their efforts at securing international recognition met with little success, and near-neighbour Tonga sent a military force to the area and annexed it.


:D

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 09:31 PM
bump

eok321
02-20-2008, 09:35 PM
You're all welcome to ireland as long as you bring Mr.Paul

EvilEngineer
02-20-2008, 09:38 PM
Thats actually happened before..

The Republic of Minerva was set up in 1972 as a libertarian new-country project by Nevada businessman Michael Oliver. Oliver's group conducted dredging operations at the Minerva Reefs, a shoal located in the Pacific Ocean south of Fiji. They succeeded in creating a small artificial island, but their efforts at securing international recognition met with little success, and near-neighbour Tonga sent a military force to the area and annexed it.


:D

Idealisms of liberty without the guts and guns to back it up, will always fall to the ever vigilant hand of oppression.

Cali4RonPaul
02-20-2008, 09:44 PM
Idealisms of liberty without the guts and guns to back it up, will always fall to the ever vigilant hand of oppression.

King Taufa'ahau Tupou IV set sail from Tonga 200 miles to the northeast aboard the ship Olovaba with the 100-man strong Tonga Defense Force (recruited from among the prisoners). They tore down the flag and read a Tongan proclamation of sovereignty. Said Davis: "We can't for the life of us understand why the king should suddenly decide he wants the reefs". While Minerva remains uninhabited, the conflict is dormant.



If only they had more money and influence, A few rich and influential Americans could have crushed a micronation like Tonga..

Soldiers of Fortune + Military Hardware, Helicopters, Naval Vessels.. And they would have had their island..

And Tonga would be laughed at if they challenged the claim by force..

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 09:54 PM
bump

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 10:00 PM
bump

margomaps
02-20-2008, 10:01 PM
This thread is totally absurd, yet amusing enough to read all the way through. :)

LibertiORDeth
02-20-2008, 10:02 PM
This thread is totally absurd, yet amusing enough to read all the way through. :)

lol

SteveMartin
02-20-2008, 10:04 PM
I am in if we get enough people signed on. I first mentioned Boipeba on my nearby thread, and I agree it looks like one of the most promising of our options....especially if we can get a resort built and work that to pay for all of our infrastructure and ongoing basic needs like defense, sanitation projects, streets, etc....

MikeStanart
02-20-2008, 10:05 PM
There's not enough room for the future of this REVOLUTION on a any island.

Your job is to Breed new Patriots. Get to work people; forget about a tiny little island.

Don't take your eyes off the prize.

EvilEngineer
02-20-2008, 10:05 PM
I love the idea, there fore will keep it bumped. Though i'd prefer to really talk seriously with those who are interested in another format aside from these boards.

SteveMartin
02-20-2008, 10:06 PM
EE,

Where would you like to "talk?"

EvilEngineer
02-20-2008, 10:14 PM
SteveMartin,
For basics, and introductions I think AIM or email would be appropriate. After that larger and more involved meetings can develop, and use other formats.

I can be reached on Aim:
RonPaulEngineer

piotr1
02-20-2008, 10:14 PM
Put me down for 3 acres.

The One
02-20-2008, 10:16 PM
Can we get that little midget, Tattoo, to be there? The plane!!! The plane!!!!

freedominnumbers
02-20-2008, 10:21 PM
If the Brazilian rules must be followed than only 3000 single family homes can be built on the island. Each requires a lot of 3000 Sq Meters and the land buildable is only 9,000,000 Sq meters. (Half the island)

It's not a virgin island. It is inhabited. http://www.ilhaboipeba.org.br/en/boipeba.html

It's also directly on the coast of Brazil making it very unlikely Brazil would allow it to be seperated and sovereign.

sidster
02-20-2008, 10:21 PM
You don't think we can do this? Our country's founding fathers did this, and we have a much better start then them.

They had the Native Americans ...










of course I'm kidding!! :D

The One
02-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Before I consider moving to an island with ya'll, I'm gonna need to see pics of what everybody looks like in their swimsuits. If I see any fat-ass hairy dudes wearing speedos, count me out.:eek:

piotr1
02-20-2008, 10:26 PM
Before I consider moving to an island with ya'll, I'm gonna need to see pics of what everybody looks like in their swimsuits. If I see any fat-ass hairy dudes wearing speedos, count me out.:eek:

oh snap! we gotta get that bunny ranch dude to start up a new branch on our island.:cool:

piotr1
02-20-2008, 10:33 PM
Or we could all move to one of these countries and becomes citizens and take over from the inside out....

http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/smallcountries.htm



.

qh4dotcom
02-20-2008, 10:37 PM
Another problem is that as a US citizen you're still supposed to send money to the IRS every year, even from an island or a new country...and if you want to renounce your citizenship then the Government can still tax you for the next 10 years.

Not sure if the IRS will chase the citizens of a new country.

skinnyskittles1989
02-20-2008, 10:39 PM
perhaps we shouldn't have a government. let's kick this rothbardian style

Prez22
02-20-2008, 11:20 PM
Of course, we'll likely be nuked by USA for leaving shortly after filling up the island... but I'm all for moving to a private island.

:eek:

LOL

rvkpa
02-20-2008, 11:57 PM
There are eight accepted criteria used to determine whether an entity is an independent country or not.

1) Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries.
2) Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
3) Has economic activity and an organized economy. A State regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.
4) Has the power of social engineering, such as education.
5) Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.
6) Has a government which provides public services and police power.
7) Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the State's territory.
8) Has external recognition.

I think some of these are a bit rediculous but it's good to know where the rest of the world is coming from.

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 12:44 AM
Wow 100 per acre? I was estimating 6 per acre, since you can feed 8 people per acre by my research. So we can hold a lot of people.


Not 100 per acre.... 1,000 people per acre.... There is a company in Milwaukee caleed "Growing Power", they have 2 acres of greenhouse, and feed 2,000 people EVERY DAY...

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 12:47 AM
We really only need one thing: a good court system that recognizes individual liberties. Once we establish the island as a total free-trade zone, the entrepreneurs will come in droves and the island will be covered in gleaming sky-scrapers within a few years. You'll be able to get your greenhouse-construction supplies at bargain tax-free prices from your choice of local dealers. Of course, you might end up reconsidering your career choice as farmer once you see how much competition you have.

If I'm able to feed 1,000 people per acre on a daily basis, do you really think I'll care about competition?

Regardless, the only reason I want to grow everything locally is because I will have the best damn restaurant on the island where everything is locally grown, organic, and grilled, baked, fried, seared, roasted, or cooked in a wood fired brick oven....

Of course, it would be the brewhaus as well... =)

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:31 PM
Another problem is that as a US citizen you're still supposed to send money to the IRS every year, even from an island or a new country...and if you want to renounce your citizenship then the Government can still tax you for the next 10 years.

Not sure if the IRS will chase the citizens of a new country.

The US government will tax us for ten more years??? You have got to be kidding me.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:33 PM
If I'm able to feed 1,000 people per acre on a daily basis, do you really think I'll care about competition?

Regardless, the only reason I want to grow everything locally is because I will have the best damn restaurant on the island where everything is locally grown, organic, and grilled, baked, fried, seared, roasted, or cooked in a wood fired brick oven....

Of course, it would be the brewhaus as well... =)

So are you seriously considering joining this, or are you just having fun? Your restaurant would be very beneficial to us all.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:34 PM
I love the idea, there fore will keep it bumped. Though i'd prefer to really talk seriously with those who are interested in another format aside from these boards.

I'm going to see if the admins will let us have a sub forum for this, eventually moving to our own.

jason43
02-21-2008, 01:38 PM
How about this one? (http://www.privateislandsonline.com/fort-montgomery-newyork.htm)

Its already got a fort built on it:D

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:42 PM
How about this one? (http://www.privateislandsonline.com/fort-montgomery-newyork.htm)

Its already got a fort built on it:D

Nice idea, but $30,000 per acre is just to pricey.

jason43
02-21-2008, 01:43 PM
Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation)

BillyDkid
02-21-2008, 01:44 PM
I have a question - is there any place in the world (short of antartica) that hasn't been laid claim to by one country or another? Preferably inhabitable.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:45 PM
I have a question - is there any place in the world (short of antartica) that hasn't been laid claim to by one country or another? Preferably inhabitable.

Probably not, but we can lay claim to some that are mostly unused/unnoticed. Such as the ones I listed.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:46 PM
Read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation)

Yep, that is what we will have :D

Mani
02-21-2008, 01:53 PM
Another problem is that as a US citizen you're still supposed to send money to the IRS every year, even from an island or a new country...and if you want to renounce your citizenship then the Government can still tax you for the next 10 years.

Not sure if the IRS will chase the citizens of a new country.

Well the British thought they could tax us to hell, and we all know what happened.

Let the IRS show up in our new country and see what luck they have with collecting taxes. :D

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 01:57 PM
Well the British thought they could tax us to hell, and we all know what happened.

Let the IRS show up in our new country and see what luck they have with collecting taxes. :D

Great idea, I don't think they would bother attacking an island a few thousand strong (and heavily armed) for a few measly dollars that they can just print anyways.

jason43
02-21-2008, 02:14 PM
The island would have to be in international water, and capable of sustaining life, i.e. support livestock, have fresh water, etc. It would also be a tremendous expense to get some sort of power grid going probably using wind and solar because they would be sustainable. We would also need boats for fishing, etc, medical personel/facilities... unless you want to go back to the land and live in tepees.

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 02:28 PM
So are you seriously considering joining this, or are you just having fun? Your restaurant would be very beneficial to us all.

Oh, no... I don't goof around with stuff like this... I'm very serious...

We'd need about 500-600 acres of total farmland I think for about 25,000 people... While I am confident that my 40 acres would feed 1000 people per acre, it would take a long time to get started, and it would need to be staffed very well with people who are knowledgeable about greenhouse gardening, hydroponics, and aquaponics.... Everyone needs to get used to using bicycles again, or we need to figure out some way to do public transportation, which means building roads or at the very least, elevated rail - the latter being my preference because we'd have to destroy less land to install the rail system... think Disney World's People Transporter Monorail train.

As much as I'd like to think all Ron Paul supporters and lovers of Liberty are peaceful people, we know that's a pipe dream and we'll also need some law enforcement and a requirement - a la Switzerland - that every able bodied male be armed with full automatic rifles, and that all able bodied women are properly trained in AA fire, and other long range weaponry. As much as I'd like to believe that women are capable of fighting on the front lines, even most women readily admit that they'd wet themselves if they were staring down a bad guy... Ladies, there's nothing to be ashamed of there, we're built differently, and when it comes right down to it, I'd rather have you back home making sure the sick and injured are taken care of, rather than you sacrificing your own life on the front line defending against an invasion... That's what men were made for, to defend you... Brains, equal... Brawn, not so much...

Also, we do need medical staff, at least two hospitals, a fire department - on rails?? - back country roads, farmers, scientists, industry, commercial enterprise, veterinarians, teachers - Libertarian teachers, NOT LIBERAL teachers - schools, and a monetary system that cannot be corrupted, and cannot be counterfeited.

Ultimately, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are the two most perfect documents ever written in the history of man since the Bible... We should use both documents verbatim, and add clauses that further explicitly prevent our own elected officials from becoming corrupt, power grabbing, lobbyist loving, tree hugging, batshit crazy, sandal wearing, religion bashing, liberals.

NEPA_Revolution
02-21-2008, 02:40 PM
The island would have to be in international water, and capable of sustaining life, i.e. support livestock, have fresh water, etc. It would also be a tremendous expense to get some sort of power grid going probably using wind and solar because they would be sustainable. We would also need boats for fishing, etc, medical personel/facilities... unless you want to go back to the land and live in tepees.

+1


This is the craziest thing I have ever seen in this forum. I like the idea, but have my doubts.


(BTW the 10mil island is the best. More island for your buck.)

jason43
02-21-2008, 02:42 PM
Also, another plan for libertarian paradice island. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Utopia)

lost_in_samoa
02-21-2008, 02:45 PM
..

shane2
02-21-2008, 02:47 PM
Establishing recognized sovereignty is the challenge. All known lands are already all claimed, except for the poles and even there there are international agreements permitting all and limiting claims.

If as an individual, and fully and finally convinced it's futile to stem the tide of ever increasing socialism here, then best to just quietly emigrate to a country more to one's liking. Venezuela, which I've lived in, would be my first choice... IF Chavez was not there. A group could split up a big ranch and support their state governor of choice most committed to ignoring them.

If a truly serious group wanted to start up their own country, though, I'd look at piotr1 suggestion above to take over a small country from inside. There's a half-dozen strategies to doing so and not all would be internally opposed. One of these countries on his list could be a good candidate...
http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/smallcountries.htm

Another tax-free zone Cayman Island type place could become a popular destination or, on the other end of the scale, take the tact to stay firmly off the radar scope and be low-key.

- Shane

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:22 PM
Oh, no... I don't goof around with stuff like this... I'm very serious...

We'd need about 500-600 acres of total farmland I think for about 25,000 people... While I am confident that my 40 acres would feed 1000 people per acre, it would take a long time to get started, and it would need to be staffed very well with people who are knowledgeable about greenhouse gardening, hydroponics, and aquaponics.... Everyone needs to get used to using bicycles again, or we need to figure out some way to do public transportation, which means building roads or at the very least, elevated rail - the latter being my preference because we'd have to destroy less land to install the rail system... think Disney World's People Transporter Monorail train.

As much as I'd like to think all Ron Paul supporters and lovers of Liberty are peaceful people, we know that's a pipe dream and we'll also need some law enforcement and a requirement - a la Switzerland - that every able bodied male be armed with full automatic rifles, and that all able bodied women are properly trained in AA fire, and other long range weaponry. As much as I'd like to believe that women are capable of fighting on the front lines, even most women readily admit that they'd wet themselves if they were staring down a bad guy... Ladies, there's nothing to be ashamed of there, we're built differently, and when it comes right down to it, I'd rather have you back home making sure the sick and injured are taken care of, rather than you sacrificing your own life on the front line defending against an invasion... That's what men were made for, to defend you... Brains, equal... Brawn, not so much...

Also, we do need medical staff, at least two hospitals, a fire department - on rails?? - back country roads, farmers, scientists, industry, commercial enterprise, veterinarians, teachers - Libertarian teachers, NOT LIBERAL teachers - schools, and a monetary system that cannot be corrupted, and cannot be counterfeited.

Ultimately, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence are the two most perfect documents ever written in the history of man since the Bible... We should use both documents verbatim, and add clauses that further explicitly prevent our own elected officials from becoming corrupt, power grabbing, lobbyist loving, tree hugging, batshit crazy, sandal wearing, religion bashing, liberals.

This is so far the best post on this topic. I was also thinking along the lines of rail transportation, and that we need to adopt the Constitution, and pretty much everything else you have said. Waiting for Josh to get back to me as to whether he will create a sub forum for this. I also agree on the defense views you expressed; Although women should be capable of defending themselves, and be able to efficiently use a weapon, they do not need to be the boots on the ground, and there are plenty of other positions they could fill (such as providing medical aid or cooking).

Shink
02-21-2008, 03:26 PM
how's the hunting on these?? I'll take 40acres in South America.... Also, we'll have to buy the ENTIRE Island, and get Alodial Title to it - this cannot be a "Real Estate" purchase... it must be bought with gold and silver, and must come with no strings attached... it is OURS and Sovereign... no laws of any other land may apply.

Of course, we'll need a government, and a monetary system, and arrange trade with many countries, and likely be nuked by USA for leaving shortly after filling up the island... but I'm all for moving to a private island.

Yep. No allodial title, no deal. I would be glad to move if I had to pay a chunk for my family as long as the place is truly sovereign. I will surely have suggestions for a government. Perhaps we could put into law permanent neutrality like the Switzerland of old. The island's inhabitants could make up an all-volunteer defense corps. Gold and silver currencies only. No fractional reserve banks. No dissolution of sovereignty ever. Etc. I'd offer up myself to train any militia. I have extensive combat training across several weapon types and scenarios (infantry, not talking artillery or anything).

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:30 PM
Establishing recognized sovereignty is the challenge. All known lands are already all claimed, except for the poles and even there there are international agreements permitting all and limiting claims.

If as an individual, and fully and finally convinced it's futile to stem the tide of ever increasing socialism here, then best to just quietly emigrate to a country more to one's liking. Venezuela, which I've lived in, would be my first choice... IF Chavez was not there. A group could split up a big ranch and support their state governor of choice most committed to ignoring them.

If a truly serious group wanted to start up their own country, though, I'd look at piotr1 suggestion above to take over a small country from inside. There's a half-dozen strategies to doing so and not all would be internally opposed. One of these countries on his list could be a good candidate...
http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/smallcountries.htm

Another tax-free zone Cayman Island type place could become a popular destination or, on the other end of the scale, take the tact to stay firmly off the radar scope and be low-key.

- Shane

I am not convinced that taking over from the inside-out would be the best solution, since there would probably be resistance to that in any country, and the neighboring nations might not like it. We would also have to conform to the language/culture of the people there, which would add to the difficulty.
If we can find an island that is in international waters and is fairly inexpensive, and large enough to sustain us, it would be feasible.

maeqFREEDOMfree
02-21-2008, 03:33 PM
sounds like a great place to build a resort regardless of location. come to <whatever-it's-called> where and experience a the relaxation of being FREE!

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:33 PM
Yep. No allodial title, no deal. I would be glad to move if I had to pay a chunk for my family as long as the place is truly sovereign. I will surely have suggestions for a government. Perhaps we could put into law permanent neutrality like the Switzerland of old. The island's inhabitants could make up an all-volunteer defense corps. Gold and silver currencies only. No fractional reserve banks. No dissolution of sovereignty ever. Etc. I'd offer up myself to train any militia. I have extensive combat training across several weapon types and scenarios (infantry, not talking artillery or anything).

Once again, great ideas. The currency would be difficult to work out, since gold/silver is very costly for a new government, but we could find a reasonable solution.

Shink
02-21-2008, 03:34 PM
I have a question--how are libertarians and somewhat-libertarians going to avoid a Bioshock scenario? I guess there's no saying what we'd agree on as to 'how free is free and how free is too free.' If you haven't played Bioshock, I feel sad for you. The story is based on a guy who is a capitalistic atheist who builds an underwater city, Rapture, that is a haven for free-thinkers and people at the top of their intellectual fields. The limitations don't really exist in Rapture and scientists eventually create widespread gene modifications that are addictive and eventually everything goes haywire. Not that that is the most realistic scenario, but it illustrates what can go wrong in a purely ideological society.


Once again, great ideas. The currency would be difficult to work out, since gold/silver is very costly for a new government, but we could find a reasonable solution.

I think if we had a strong agricultural focus for awhile (and actually, we'd have to always maintain our own agriculture to have a chance of lasting as a country), we'd be fine. Agriculture pays itself off after awhile, and once you speed past the 'breaking even' line, you have renewable resources and more than enough to sell off to gain a foothold into owning real money (likely silver at first due to lower rarity than gold).

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:38 PM
I have a question--how are libertarians and somewhat-libertarians going to avoid a Bioshock scenario? I guess there's no saying what we'd agree on as to 'how free is free and how free is too free.'

Follow the Constitution. 'Nuff said.

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 03:40 PM
let the free market decide the currency

Shink
02-21-2008, 03:44 PM
Follow the Constitution. 'Nuff said.

Well, our Constitution has its failures and we need one like it but vastly improved. The Bill of Rights would be the most extremely important part, and we'd have to lay out a LOT of stuff that government can NEVER do.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:50 PM
Well, our Constitution has its failures and we need one like it but vastly improved. The Bill of Rights would be the most extremely important part, and we'd have to lay out a LOT of stuff that government can NEVER do.

There are also a few things that need to be added to the Bill of Rights, such as making all elections paper ballot and hand counted.

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 03:51 PM
we should add a delegislative branch

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:52 PM
we should add a delegislative branch

I... ummm.... think you will have to refresh my mind on this one...

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:54 PM
let the free market decide the currency

And allow competing currencies...

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:54 PM
Congrats people we have reached 100 posts.

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 03:55 PM
we should add a delegislative branch

lol... to abolish laws made by the government?? We wouldn't need it, because we wouldn't have those unconstitutional laws to begin with...

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 03:57 PM
yeah, passing an unconstitutional law should be treason and therefore demand capital punishment

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:58 PM
If anybody has suggestions for a place to start, (in international waters, self sustaining, at least 500 acres) please post them.

Shink
02-21-2008, 03:59 PM
I take this idea very seriously. I want to see some more brainstorming and see some support and we can push this on a lot of websites.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 03:59 PM
yeah, passing an unconstitutional law should be treason and therefore demand capital punishment

Maybe just exile...

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 04:00 PM
Maybe just exile...

haha yeah that'll work too

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 04:00 PM
I take this idea very seriously. I want to see some more brainstorming and see some support and we can push this on a lot of websites.

Once we get a sub forum on here, we can start creating our own forum and website.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 04:05 PM
bump for Operation: Liberty Island.

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 04:08 PM
have any of you ever read any Murray Rothbard?

Shink
02-21-2008, 04:09 PM
have any of you ever read any Murray Rothbard?

I've only had the good fortune to read some articles and snippets. I'm sure you'll find a shitload of people around here and other RP sites that will tell you 'fuck yeah!'

SteveMartin
02-21-2008, 04:10 PM
Could we all stick to my original thread until one of them gets pinned? We are fragmenting the ideas and the effort with these competing threads. It is titled: "We need our own state"

Plus, I am on dialup and can't monitor all these threads and keep up with all of my other daily on-line duties (I run website on dialup too...lol...)

thanks!

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 04:11 PM
I've only had the good fortune to read some articles and snippets. I'm sure you'll find a shitload of people around here and other RP sites that will tell you 'fuck yeah!'

his layout of a capitalist, stateless society would make an interesting experiment

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 04:11 PM
I'm sorry, I wouldn't support capital punishment for making unconstitutional laws, only for capital crimes, Rape someone, you get raped back... with a broom handle... murder someone, you die too... no lengthy prison terms for capital crime... you get your due process, and that's about it... If you're found guilty, you get one chance to appeal... if you're found guilty again, you go to the chair... no waiting... no news about it... it just happens.

Shink
02-21-2008, 04:14 PM
Could we all stick to my original thread until one of them gets pinned? We are fragmenting the ideas and the effort with these competing threads. It is titled: "We need our own state"

Plus, I am on dialup and can't monitor all these threads and keep up with all of my other daily on-line duties (I run website on dialup too...lol...)

thanks!

Steve, you know this idea is superior. What we need is a MOD TO MAKE A SECTION FOR THESE IDEAS COMBINED!!! I'm reporting my post to make it happen.:p

John of Des Moines
02-21-2008, 04:16 PM
The judicial system would need a special grand jury with exclusive jurisdiction to grant aggrieved parties the right to sue judges and other officials who claim judicial immunity.

SteveMartin
02-21-2008, 04:18 PM
Well, we've been talking about islands a lot on the main thread. I don't care which one gets pinned, but we need to stop dividing the effort, or we may lose something very important.

lost_in_samoa
02-21-2008, 04:27 PM
..

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Well I currently live on an island. I moved my family here to get away from the encroaching fascism of America. That and acclimate us to living in a tropical, jungle, third world environment. (it takes more acclimating than you'd think).

We have been looking at purchasing an island in the PI group for the last decade or so. We came close on a coupla occasions. But the deals fell through because of title issues and fear.

The fear part is from piracy more than anything. Yes there are still pirates on the oceans. They use speed boats and ak's not schooners and swords. Being on an island means you are isolated and a target.

I've yet to solve that problem but I'm working on it.


My criteria has been large enough for agriculture. Aqua-culture is my current study item. Placing fish ponds with tilapia up hill from your fields. Let the nitrogen rich "fish-water" and gravity do the hard part of farming for you.

Fresh water source (small scale hydro electric). I've actually built two of these as a test using an old generator with a water wheel and a small tractor transmission.

Mountain or very large hill. (gotta have something to hide behind when cyclones come through). Basements on islands don't work very well.

Close enough to civilization to get materials and parts. Far enough to be private.

I've been doing lots of research on alternate energy. My facility currently gets 10% of its power from solar.

We are in the beginning stages of installing 3 X 10Kw Bergey wind turbines.

I've got detailed plans on how to build bio-digesters for a methane fuel source. Easy to convert small engines to run off of methane. Most people don't know but living in a tropical environment you have ton's of vegetable waste that gathers up. You have to deal with that stuff or it becomes a breeding ground for mosquitoes. They carry Dengue fever. You REALLY don't want to contract that. I know.

Who ever is keeping a list of serious persons put my name on that list.

I could offer 10+ years of on island experience in electrics/electronics/agriculture/construction. Plus I am a combat veteran with all the usual training.

Aquaculture is how you feed 1000 people per acre in a greenhouse.... in Wisconsin... in Winter.... per day.... imagine what we could grow on open acreage where the temperature never gets below 70 degrees F...

CurtisLow
02-21-2008, 05:12 PM
1000 people per acre in a greenhouse per day?

won't happen.... Show me the facts.

lost_in_samoa
02-21-2008, 05:21 PM
..

Dave39168
02-21-2008, 05:25 PM
Yall this island all sounds pretty good, but you know 'some people' don't like freedom. I would worry that 'someone' might attack the island in the name of fighting 'terrorism' or 'national security????
Just a thought.

Dave39168
02-21-2008, 05:37 PM
No not attack us for a few dollars or something, attack us for allowing free ideas to spread, and proving that freedom works. that could be detrimental to 'some people' if ideas like that got out.

EvilEngineer
02-21-2008, 05:42 PM
Yall this island all sounds pretty good, but you know 'some people' don't like freedom. I would worry that 'someone' might attack the island in the name of fighting 'terrorism' or 'national security????
Just a thought.

Which is why we'd have to hit the ground running with an armed defense force.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 05:46 PM
Could we all stick to my original thread until one of them gets pinned? We are fragmenting the ideas and the effort with these competing threads. It is titled: "We need our own state"

Plus, I am on dialup and can't monitor all these threads and keep up with all of my other daily on-line duties (I run website on dialup too...lol...)

thanks!

Most of that is just discussing why we should all join FSP in NH. This wastes a lot less time.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 05:48 PM
I'm sorry, I wouldn't support capital punishment for making unconstitutional laws, only for capital crimes, Rape someone, you get raped back... with a broom handle... murder someone, you die too... no lengthy prison terms for capital crime... you get your due process, and that's about it... If you're found guilty, you get one chance to appeal... if you're found guilty again, you go to the chair... no waiting... no news about it... it just happens.

Ditto.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 05:49 PM
The judicial system would need a special grand jury with exclusive jurisdiction to grant aggrieved parties the right to sue judges and other officials who claim judicial immunity.

Interesting proposition...

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 05:49 PM
Well, we've been talking about islands a lot on the main thread. I don't care which one gets pinned, but we need to stop dividing the effort, or we may lose something very important.

Then let the other one die instead of bumping it.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 05:52 PM
Well I currently live on an island. I moved my family here to get away from the encroaching fascism of America. That and acclimate us to living in a tropical, jungle, third world environment. (it takes more acclimating than you'd think).

We have been looking at purchasing an island in the PI group for the last decade or so. We came close on a coupla occasions. But the deals fell through because of title issues and fear.

The fear part is from piracy more than anything. Yes there are still pirates on the oceans. They use speed boats and ak's not schooners and swords. Being on an island means you are isolated and a target.

I've yet to solve that problem but I'm working on it.


My criteria has been large enough for agriculture. Aqua-culture is my current study item. Placing fish ponds with tilapia up hill from your fields. Let the nitrogen rich "fish-water" and gravity do the hard part of farming for you.

Fresh water source (small scale hydro electric). I've actually built two of these as a test using an old generator with a water wheel and a small tractor transmission.

Mountain or very large hill. (gotta have something to hide behind when cyclones come through). Basements on islands don't work very well.

Close enough to civilization to get materials and parts. Far enough to be private.

I've been doing lots of research on alternate energy. My facility currently gets 10% of its power from solar.

We are in the beginning stages of installing 3 X 10Kw Bergey wind turbines.

I've got detailed plans on how to build bio-digesters for a methane fuel source. Easy to convert small engines to run off of methane. Most people don't know but living in a tropical environment you have ton's of vegetable waste that gathers up. You have to deal with that stuff or it becomes a breeding ground for mosquitoes. They carry Dengue fever. You REALLY don't want to contract that. I know.

Who ever is keeping a list of serious persons put my name on that list.

I could offer 10+ years of on island experience in electrics/electronics/agriculture/construction. Plus I am a combat veteran with all the usual training.

I think you rival Evil Engineer as MVP in this operation.

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 05:54 PM
No not attack us for a few dollars or something, attack us for allowing free ideas to spread, and proving that freedom works. that could be detrimental to 'some people' if ideas like that got out.

I think we will be minor enough of a "problem" to be bothered.

randolphus maximus
02-21-2008, 06:03 PM
We really only need one thing: a good court system that recognizes individual liberties. Once we establish the island as a total free-trade zone, the entrepreneurs will come in droves and the island will be covered in gleaming sky-scrapers within a few years. You'll be able to get your greenhouse-construction supplies at bargain tax-free prices from your choice of local dealers. Of course, you might end up reconsidering your career choice as farmer once you see how much competition you have.

Right on

lost_in_samoa
02-21-2008, 06:06 PM
..

AFM
02-21-2008, 06:15 PM
cheers to lost in somoa
NO
TO ALL PATRIOTS ON BOARD
FREEDDDOMM!!!!!!!!!!!!

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 06:16 PM
cheers to lost in somoa
NO
TO ALL PATRIOTS ON BOARD
FREEDDDOMM!!!!!!!!!!!!

HURRAH!

TXcarlosTX
02-21-2008, 06:18 PM
wow!! what a great idea....

Tenbatsu
02-21-2008, 06:22 PM
Two words.

U.N. Sanctions

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 06:24 PM
Two words.

U.N. Sanctions

I think we would be safe.

MsDoodahs
02-21-2008, 06:26 PM
I am in if we get enough people signed on. I first mentioned Boipeba on my nearby thread, and I agree it looks like one of the most promising of our options....especially if we can get a resort built and work that to pay for all of our infrastructure and ongoing basic needs like defense, sanitation projects, streets, etc....

Let PRIVATE ENTITIES do all that, Steve. Otherwise, you're setting up the same shit that you've got HERE.

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 06:28 PM
Let PRIVATE ENTITIES do all that, Steve. Otherwise, you're setting up the same shit that you've got HERE.

Amen. If there is any government, it should only be protecting our property rights.

MsDoodahs
02-21-2008, 06:29 PM
perhaps we shouldn't have a government. let's kick this rothbardian style

:D

fedup100
02-21-2008, 06:31 PM
For all of you that wish your own Island, please watch the movie "Mosquito Coast", it is a scenario not to be taken lightly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mosquito_Coast

The Mosquito Coast

The article is about the novel and film. For the Central American area see Mosquito Coast.

The Mosquito Coast
Directed by Peter Weir
Produced by Jerome Hellman
Written by Paul Theroux (novel)
& Paul Schrader (screenplay)
Starring Harrison Ford
Helen Mirren
River Phoenix
Music by Maurice Jarre
Cinematography John Seale
Editing by Thom Noble
Distributed by Warner Bros.
Release date(s) 1986
Running time 117 min.
Language English
IMDb profile

The Mosquito Coast (ISBN 0-14-006089-8) is a 1982 novel by Paul Theroux and a 1986 film based on the book. Harrison Ford, Helen Mirren, and River Phoenix star in the film directed by Peter Weir.

[edit] Plot summary

Maverick inventor Allie Fox finds little support for his inventions in the United States. He is disgusted by American culture, economic structure, and class division. In an act of extreme rebellion, he moves to the Mosquito Coast of Honduras with his wife and four children. He purchases a township in the jungle from a man in a local bar. After difficulty, they arrive at the town of Jeronimo in the jungle. Allie Fox creates his own anti-establishment paradise in Honduras, and lives there with the Zambus and Maywit family.

Under Allie's authoritarian leadership the family, the Zambus and the Maywits build a settlement in the jungle. It includes an ice factory (dubbed the "Fat Boy"), providing useful cooling for the settlement and the region. During several occasions Allie enters into conflict with a missionary who wishes to spread the word of Christianity to the township. One day three armed men demand to stay at the settlement. The threat and loss of freedom is countered by making a bedroom for the men in the ice factory, locking it and cooling the room to freeze them to death. However, they start shooting from inside, causing a fire which not only kills them, but also destroys the whole settlement and pollutes the river.

Although the other family members want to return to the U.S., Allie insists in starting again at a new location. He lies, saying the U.S. has been destroyed in a nuclear war, which some of the children believe. On occasion, family members plan to sneak away to leave, or even consider killing Allie. As a local man and friend of the family had warned, the water level gets high and the new settlement is also destroyed.

On the move again, they arrive at a mission church and small township. Suffering from mental anguish, Allie sets the church on fire, after which the missionary with whom he had come into conflict earlier shoots him. On the way home, travelling downstream by boat, he is paralyzed and dying. The family lies, telling him that they are going upstream, as he wants. They are in reality going downstream towards the ocean and back to America.

The book is written from the viewpoint of the eldest son, Charlie, played in the film by River Phoenix.

Taglines:

Allie Fox followed his dream to the Mosquito Coast. He planned a paradise. He created a Hell.

How far should a man go to find his dream? Allie Fox went to the Mosquito Coast. He went too far.

[edit] External links

* The Mosquito Coast at the Internet Movie Database

MsDoodahs
02-21-2008, 06:39 PM
let the free market decide the currency

Skinny....ancap?

MsD <<<< ancap.

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 06:41 PM
Skinny....ancap?

MsD <<<< ancap.

yeah. awesome! haha

tomveil
02-21-2008, 06:47 PM
This is very interesting to me. I run my own buisness now, and could probably run something on "the island" as well. I'd also be willing to work something else as well. Communities used to be set up by hundreds of people, not thousands. No reason that we couldn't do it as well. With the internet, we're already ahead of the game! Will keep an eye on this one :)

lost_in_samoa
02-21-2008, 06:48 PM
..

kodoandkang
02-21-2008, 07:09 PM
skinnyskittles has the right idea. we just need to follow the blueprint that rothbard set down so beautifully.

most people, I assume, would like to start a new island to flee the oppression of the sheer statism in the united states. unfortunately, when mulling over how to best develop the island people go straight into top down central planning mode. utilities, transportation, currencies, security etc., are all "nerve centers" that people think the government must control. this is ridiculous. literally everything would be provided for by the free market. if there is a demand then it will be supplied. very simple and very effective. each person just needs to focus on their own life and everyone will be fine. the more people pursue their self-interest the wealthier the society will become. it is the noblest thing they can do, in fact.


many people are especially confused about currency simply assuming it would be a precious metal. the currency would not be gold or silver anymore than it would be USD. there simply would be no legal tender laws. people would be free to use commodities, fiat paper, or anything else when entering into contracts. the reason USD is used in the US is because it is illegal to use any other currency and courts won't enfore contracts in anything but USD. the private courts on the island would enfore contracts in anything at all. usually when there are no legal tender laws gold emerges as the favored currency. this would simply be a custom though, it would have no legal backing.

as far as national security, this would be provided for by a voluntary militia. since every citizen will bear arms the citizenry will already be proficient in small arms. any funds that the militia need to operate on would be provided voluntarily by the community. since the community itself would be at stake in the case of an invasion it wouldn't be hard to raise funds. this would also be a virtual foolproof check against nefarious intentions. if the people don't agree with something they don't need to finance it.

finally, people should watch "The Beach". it is a solid movie that touches on this topic. the book is much better apparently, though I haven't read it.

just noticed "The Mosquito Coast" movie...that seems even more relevant.

MsDoodahs
02-21-2008, 07:09 PM
I call it "unholy wood."

lol...

skinnyskittles1989
02-21-2008, 07:12 PM
we just need to follow the blueprint that rothbard set down so beautifully.

most people, I assume, would like to start a new island to flee the oppression of the sheer statism in the united states. unfortunately, when mulling over how to best develop the island people go straight into top down central planning mode. utilities, transportation, currencies, security etc., are all "nerve centers" that people think the government must control. this is ridiculous. literally everything would be provided for by the free market. if there is a demand then it will be supplied. very simple and very effective. each person just needs to focus on their own life and everyone will be fine. the more people pursue their self-interest the wealthier the society will become. it is the noblest thing they can do, in fact.


many people are especially confused about currency simply assuming it would be a precious metal. the currency would not be gold or silver anymore than it would be USD. there simply would be no legal tender laws. people would be free to use commodities, fiat paper, or anything else when entering into contracts. the reason USD is used in the US is because it is illegal to use any other currency and courts won't enfore contracts in anything but USD. the private courts on the island would enfore contracts in anything at all. usually when there are no legal tender laws gold emerges as the favored currency. this would simply be a custom though, it would have no legal backing.

as far as national security, this would be provided for by a voluntary militia. since every citizen will bear arms the citizenry will already be proficient in small arms. any funds that the militia need to operate on would be provided voluntarily by the community. since the community itself would be at stake in the case of an invasion it wouldn't be hard to raise funds. this would also be a virtual foolproof check against nefarious intentions. if the people don't agree with something they don't need to finance it.


exactly haha

Roxi
02-21-2008, 08:22 PM
ive been joking about "paultopia" for a long time now.... you guys know im totally in.... i will SO live on the beach in a tent to do this


someone should grab www.ronpaulisland.com or something and make a way for people to sign up to inquire about info, and recieve status updates:rolleyes:

Tarabell952
02-21-2008, 08:34 PM
I just noticed this. I read the whole thing, and I'm seriously totally IN!

LibertiORDeth
02-21-2008, 09:31 PM
ive been joking about "paultopia" for a long time now.... you guys know im totally in.... i will SO live on the beach in a tent to do this


someone should grab www.ronpaulisland.com or something and make a way for people to sign up to inquire about info, and recieve status updates:rolleyes:

Maybe libertyisland.com

phoenixzorn
02-21-2008, 10:19 PM
1000 people per acre in a greenhouse per day?

won't happen.... Show me the facts.

http://smallfarms.typepad.com/small_farms/2006/04/where_theres_a_.html

Growing Power in Milwaukee, Wisconsin provides food to 2000 people... on a 2 acre farm that consists mainly of greenhouses. It can be done on a small scale, in Wisconsin, throughout the winter, and it can be done on a large scale too...


So we invited ourselves, Mary Catherine and I, out to see what was so unusual at the Growing Power center. I was aware that Will Allen would be teaching courses: once a month, several dozen people come to spend a weekend at Growing Power to learn how to maximize the output and create an efficient and sustainable ecosystem that can feed 2000 people on two acres. I issued my usual, "I promise not to get in anyone's hair" promise, and we arrived the next afternoon.

...

Cynthia's family owned a farm in Oak Creek, a suburban city near Milwaukee. While working in corporate marketing jobs that included Proctor & Gamble, Will continued to farm. He snapped up the two-acre parcel that is now the Growing Power center, merely because it was still zoned for agriculture in an increasingly industrial city, and because he needed somewhere to sell what the Oak Creek farm was producing. It was being in the city and seeing urban blight and the poor health resulting from poverty and crowded living conditions that turned Allen's attention to new farming techniques. These techniques synthesized into the incredibly productive system that allows Growing Power the potential to earn a $5/square foot yield, as opposed to a $1/square foot yield that is the conventional farmer's average.

As his "farm" developed, so did the realization that he could help others create communities that were centered on healthy, affordable food. And so the farmer became the teacher, the coach, the architect for a new vision that has swept literally thousands of people up in the spirit of "We can do this." Growing Power is an organization with many offshoots and partners: from youth education to partnering farms who use Growing Power to distribute their produce, in the aptly named Rainbow Farmers Cooperative. (The "rainbow" includes Hmong, African-American, and white farmers in the Milwaukee area.) Collectively, they were able to make inroads in local supermarkets, delivering high quality produce at competitive prices: clearly it was a case of "swim together or sink alone." Another strand in the braids of community that run through the projects of Growing Power.

Doktor_Jeep
02-21-2008, 11:02 PM
Nope. Nowhere to run.

Gotta stay and fight.

da32130
02-22-2008, 07:48 AM
skinnyskittles has the right idea. we just need to follow the blueprint that rothbard set down so beautifully.

most people, I assume, would like to start a new island to flee the oppression of the sheer statism in the united states. unfortunately, when mulling over how to best develop the island people go straight into top down central planning mode. utilities, transportation, currencies, security etc., are all "nerve centers" that people think the government must control. this is ridiculous. literally everything would be provided for by the free market. if there is a demand then it will be supplied. very simple and very effective. each person just needs to focus on their own life and everyone will be fine. the more people pursue their self-interest the wealthier the society will become. it is the noblest thing they can do, in fact.


many people are especially confused about currency simply assuming it would be a precious metal. the currency would not be gold or silver anymore than it would be USD. there simply would be no legal tender laws. people would be free to use commodities, fiat paper, or anything else when entering into contracts. the reason USD is used in the US is because it is illegal to use any other currency and courts won't enfore contracts in anything but USD. the private courts on the island would enfore contracts in anything at all. usually when there are no legal tender laws gold emerges as the favored currency. this would simply be a custom though, it would have no legal backing.

as far as national security, this would be provided for by a voluntary militia. since every citizen will bear arms the citizenry will already be proficient in small arms. any funds that the militia need to operate on would be provided voluntarily by the community. since the community itself would be at stake in the case of an invasion it wouldn't be hard to raise funds. this would also be a virtual foolproof check against nefarious intentions. if the people don't agree with something they don't need to finance it.

finally, people should watch "The Beach". it is a solid movie that touches on this topic. the book is much better apparently, though I haven't read it.

just noticed "The Mosquito Coast" movie...that seems even more relevant.

1) I think the above would be the way to go.

David Friedman also has a book on this:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freedom/MofF_Contents.html

I think this makes sense if we go in an anarcho-capitalism direction because that hasn't been tried before and the US would probably never go there on its own.

I think it would be interesting just to see if we could pull it off as a test case for the world.

2)Also, here was a list of small countries:
http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/smallcountries.htm

I noticed some of them were larger countries with many islands, some of which were uninhabited. Maybe we could just buy the island from the country for a hefty price.

"Palau - 191 square miles - Palau (also known as Belau) was a Trust Territory of Pacific Islands. It was formerly known as the Carolines and is composed of more than 200 islands in the Pacific; the population is about 20,000. It became independent in 1994. "

"Maldives - 115 square miles - Only 200 of the 2000 Indian Ocean islands which make up this country are occupied by 340,000 residents. The islands gained independence from the U.K. in 1965."

3) If we don't do 2), then we would probably have to do this(create an island):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva

But instead have it further from any other and be prepared to defend it right after saying it is a country.

Live_Free_Or_Die
02-22-2008, 07:53 AM
Money will not be a problem, free markets that protect privacy and property rights will always attract a financial market and money.

Energy, Defense, & Sovereignty are the big hurdles

----------->http://www.waterfuelcell.org/

LibertiORDeth
02-22-2008, 12:14 PM
Money will not be a problem, free markets that protect privacy and property rights will always attract a financial market and money.

Energy, Defense, & Sovereignty are the big hurdles

----------->http://www.waterfuelcell.org/

Were basically ok as long as we don't get attacked, and are recognized by the rest of the world as a sovereign nation, or at least ignored by the rest of the world.

LibertiORDeth
02-22-2008, 12:17 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=122942

Check out this thread, and tell me that this idea isn't the best alternative.

LibertiORDeth
02-22-2008, 12:32 PM
So are we going to do anarchy, minarchy, or use the Constitution?

LibertiORDeth
02-22-2008, 12:47 PM
beat
up
marry
poppins

Liberty4life
02-22-2008, 12:55 PM
I think a form of government that would work is by the internet, use a secure site and have people vote on what they want, :cool: on a side note why not buy a tiny island and build it up, expand the island with dredging and piling the sea bed up to make it bigger, essentially you could make it any size you want

LibertiORDeth
02-22-2008, 12:56 PM
I think a form of government that would work is by the internet, use a secure site and have people vote on what they want, :cool: on a side note why not buy a tiny island and build it up, expand the island with dredging and piling the sea bed up to make it bigger, essentially you could make it any size you want

I have heard that several times, but would have to see if it is feasible, what the costs of it are, etc. Any info on it?

beachmaster
02-22-2008, 02:47 PM
Two words.

U.N. Sanctions

That's 3

:rolleyes:

Tesselator
02-23-2008, 07:51 AM
A couple thousand people to live on an uninhabited island? Come on be serious, this is much safer then choosing a state.

You really think so? Ever hear of Waco Texas?
What did you think that was ACTUALLY about?

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 02:47 PM
bump

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 03:08 PM
You really think so? Ever hear of Waco Texas?
What did you think that was ACTUALLY about?

What about it?

mkeller
02-23-2008, 03:32 PM
I think it would be easier, and cheaper, to buy an island than build one from scratch. And it would cost a lot less in blood than taking over a state would. How much do you figure Brazil would charge extra for us to buy all rights to Boipeba (the best bet so far)? Purchasing independence would be much safer than just declaring it, especially if you're near a large powerful country.

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 05:34 PM
I think it would be easier, and cheaper, to buy an island than build one from scratch. And it would cost a lot less in blood than taking over a state would. How much do you figure Brazil would charge extra for us to buy all rights to Boipeba (the best bet so far)? Purchasing independence would be much safer than just declaring it, especially if you're near a large powerful country.

Interesting idea, I Was thinking that we would have to get a place in international waters, but this would also work.

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 05:52 PM
ive been joking about "paultopia" for a long time now.... you guys know im totally in.... i will SO live on the beach in a tent to do this


Probably no need for that...

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 06:17 PM
http://smallfarms.typepad.com/small_farms/2006/04/where_theres_a_.html

Growing Power in Milwaukee, Wisconsin provides food to 2000 people... on a 2 acre farm that consists mainly of greenhouses. It can be done on a small scale, in Wisconsin, throughout the winter, and it can be done on a large scale too...

Wow thats great.

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 07:54 PM
Come on people we need some more ideas.

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 08:19 PM
beat
up
mary
popins

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 08:43 PM
bump again

LibertiORDeth
02-23-2008, 10:30 PM
Nope. Nowhere to run.

Gotta stay and fight.

Is that a fact.

lost_in_samoa
02-23-2008, 10:40 PM
..

LibertiORDeth
02-24-2008, 04:41 PM
PM the people who've expressed an interest. Test the waters. Is their interest just an idle fancy or is there some steel in it.

That's the first step.

We are getting there.

GoApe4RonPaul2008
02-25-2008, 04:30 PM
This is for discussion of purchasing an island and starting our own country. Following are some options:

South America

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/boipeba-island.htm
4,201 acres
US $10,350,000
$2,463 per acre
Enough land for 25,206 people.

Central America

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/isla-muerto-panama.htm
343.5 acres
US $1,600,000
$4,657 per acre.
Enough land for 2,061 people.
Australia

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/clairview-island-australia.htm
659 acres
AUD $6,000,000
$9,104 per acre
Enough land for 3,954 people.
Mexico

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/cayo-venado.htm
490 acres
US $1,500,000
$3,061 per acre
Enough land for 2,940 people.

Europe

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/nafsika-island.htm
1,235 acres
EUR 8,000,000
$9,531 per acre
Enough land for 7,410 people.



This is disgraceful. To abandon such a country where the CONSTITUTION still remains law. There is more then just 25k ron paul fans out there. We can not abandon them! WE must unite. Divided we Fall, together we Stand. WE THE PEOPLE!

If you participate in this and you renounce your citizenship to the USA. They can and will invade after the Collapse of the usa. They will do what they have done to every other country if you read the history of it. They will plant things in your land with CIA opps. It is this nations history Read BLOWBACK by chalmers Johnson. This nation has committed the worst of crimes yet we are not held accountable. Running will only make it easier for the elites to conquer. WE must stand together. WE have a network already set up. We need to harness this power we have. Have faith. Do not let the media pundits sway your thoughts. Remain Strong and vigilant.

In Liberty,
-Chris

christagious
02-25-2008, 07:10 PM
as much as i would love to live on an island with a bunch of my best buds... it wouldnt be practical...

unless we could figure out a way to make money off the island it wouldnt be worth it.

The one island is next to Brazil. Let's do what the guy in Nevada did with those brothels, we'd make a TON of money off of Brazilian women, as long as the women are willing............and clean.

And it's an island, plenty of fish to export, I'm sure there are plenty of ideas we can come up with to start an economy. And I"m almost finished with school for Education and Spanish, so if we get an island by South America, we'll need some Spanish speakers to do trade with them. And we'll need schools anyways, so count me in!!

We need to seriously consider this

christagious
02-25-2008, 07:17 PM
If I'm able to feed 1,000 people per acre on a daily basis, do you really think I'll care about competition?

Regardless, the only reason I want to grow everything locally is because I will have the best damn restaurant on the island where everything is locally grown, organic, and grilled, baked, fried, seared, roasted, or cooked in a wood fired brick oven....

Of course, it would be the brewhaus as well... =)

I have a lot of restaurant experience too. I'll be a teacher and a cook

LibertiORDeth
02-25-2008, 07:22 PM
I have a lot of restaurant experience too. I'll be a teacher and a cook

Great!

christagious
02-25-2008, 07:52 PM
Once we find out if this idea is viable and enough people are willing, and we have a website we'll need a moneybomb that acts as a way to buy the island and so that people can secure their right to live on the island. This'll have to be a moneybomb that lasts a few weeks because 10.3 million dollars is a lot of money to come up with.

christagious
02-25-2008, 07:55 PM
Not sure if I'm right, but it looks like this island is bigger and a lot cheaper than BoiPeaba.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/argentinaisland.htm

christagious
02-25-2008, 08:22 PM
hell, check this one out:
http://www.privateislandsonline.com/guafo-island.htm


75,000 acres for only 7 million dollars!!!!!

we could have 75,000 people on here and they could all own an acre of land.

this is $93.33 an acre, if I did the math right

dust of nations
02-25-2008, 08:47 PM
hell, check this one out:
http://www.privateislandsonline.com/guafo-island.htm


75,000 acres for only 7 million dollars!!!!!

we could have 75,000 people on here and they could all own an acre of land.

this is $93.33 an acre, if I did the math right

alright size is crucial but you have to measure in other factors, i would imagine, land able to be farmed, etc. right?

porcupine
02-25-2008, 10:28 PM
If you want to create a Galt's Gulch, your first look should be at the Free State Project.

http://www.freestateproject.org/

christagious
02-25-2008, 11:04 PM
If you want to create a Galt's Gulch, your first look should be at the Free State Project.

http://www.freestateproject.org/

But new hamphire doesn't have a tropical, island paradise feel to it!!!!

dust of nations
02-25-2008, 11:15 PM
If you want to create a Galt's Gulch, your first look should be at the Free State Project.

http://www.freestateproject.org/

as of late, how many people are involved in this project?

LibertyRevolution
02-25-2008, 11:17 PM
Not sure if I'm right, but it looks like this island is bigger and a lot cheaper than BoiPeaba.

http://www.privateislandsonline.com/argentinaisland.htm

"This river island, called "Ile Aguara Sur" is situated in the Helvetia District, Garay department of the province North of Santa Fe - about 100kms up the Parana River". This is an inland island. I dont think thats a good place to try and start up a new country, inside of another one. And the name of river it sits in is "Parana River" just doesnt sound like somewhere I want to swim or wash things in. So I vote no on this one.

LibertyRevolution
02-25-2008, 11:18 PM
hell, check this one out:
http://www.privateislandsonline.com/guafo-island.htm


75,000 acres for only 7 million dollars!!!!!

we could have 75,000 people on here and they could all own an acre of land.

this is $93.33 an acre, if I did the math right

"This 75,000 acre parcel on a large island in southern Chile offers incomparable natural beauty and a unique investment opportunity."
This doesnt sound like your buying the entire island, just a piece of it.

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 11:02 AM
"This 75,000 acre parcel on a large island in southern Chile offers incomparable natural beauty and a unique investment opportunity."
This doesnt sound like your buying the entire island, just a piece of it.

Keep looking people.

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 12:28 PM
"This river island, called "Ile Aguara Sur" is situated in the Helvetia District, Garay department of the province North of Santa Fe - about 100kms up the Parana River". This is an inland island. I dont think thats a good place to try and start up a new country, inside of another one. And the name of river it sits in is "Parana River" just doesnt sound like somewhere I want to swim or wash things in. So I vote no on this one.

Alright thanks for checking it out.

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 02:16 PM
as of late, how many people are involved in this project?

Do you mean FSP? Not many, Liberty Island as tons of new members though.

Jon4Paul
02-26-2008, 05:44 PM
Honestly, no country will cede any of its land in this day and age. I suspect maybe for some insane amount of money (100s of millions+) you could find a corrupt enough government to take a bribe and give you the recognition you need to be considered a legitimate country (if they don't get the money and double cross you by taking the land back with their army later). Much like our forefathers, if you want to build a new nation you need to take the land by force. Nobody will give it away for free... (or cheap like the 10 million being passed around in this thread)

Then again, I doubt any assembly of Ron Paul fans would be strong enough to take down the Brazilian army...or even Argentina to take the island (and keep it) by force. If you did then of course you could use the money for weapons since the land is essentially free. "We claim this island for Liberty all I survey is now ours." Much like the conquerors from Europe did when they came to the Americas.

Perhaps finding a democratic country with a really really small population in the Caribbean would be plausible to take over from the inside (if they allowed foreigners to gain access to voting rights fairly quickly). I have always loved the online photos of Eleuthera and think a nice climate and centralized location like that may be perfect.

Maybe someone can do some research into bringing some of our ideas en mass to somewhere like Antigua (some of their recent battles against the WTO and others has always left me with a soft spot for the place)? In many ways that country is already headed in the right direction...

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 06:07 PM
Honestly, no country will cede any of its land in this day and age. I suspect maybe for some insane amount of money (100s of millions+) you could find a corrupt enough government to take a bribe and give you the recognition you need to be considered a legitimate country (if they don't get the money and double cross you by taking the land back with their army later). Much like our forefathers, if you want to build a new nation you need to take the land by force. Nobody will give it away for free... (or cheap like the 10 million being passed around in this thread)

Then again, I doubt any assembly of Ron Paul fans would be strong enough to take down the Brazilian army...or even Argentina to take the island (and keep it) by force. If you did then of course you could use the money for weapons since the land is essentially free. "We claim this island for Liberty all I survey is now ours." Much like the conquerors from Europe did when they came to the Americas.

Perhaps finding a democratic country with a really really small population in the Caribbean would be plausible to take over from the inside (if they allowed foreigners to gain access to voting rights fairly quickly). I have always loved the online photos of Eleuthera and think a nice climate and centralized location like that may be perfect.

Maybe someone can do some research into bringing some of our ideas en mass to somewhere like Antigua (some of their recent battles against the WTO and others has always left me with a soft spot for the place)? In many ways that country is already headed in the right direction...

This may turn into that, however it is possible to purchase succession.

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 06:30 PM
If you want to create a Galt's Gulch, your first look should be at the Free State Project.

http://www.freestateproject.org/

They had their chance in the limelight, and they elected McCain (with RP in 5th).

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 06:54 PM
..

Come again?

dust of nations
02-26-2008, 08:11 PM
although it may be exciting to entertained the thought for a little while, the more you think about it, realistically, the more you realize it is pipe dreams.

the first problem that arises, i've heard estimates of 10 million for an island.
that of course is to own as private property. not as an independent sovereign nation.
this in such results in two problems,

raising a minimum of $10,000,000 and then even after that you still wouldn't be recognized as a sovereign nation.

what eventually would happen, when you attempted to succeed from the mother country, they wouldn't send an army or navy, they would laugh. this is the case in all micro-nations. you wouldn't pose a threat to the mother nation.

your actual problem, would be pirates. yes, pirates. they still exist. they have no moral judgement or respect for freedom. protection against these men would be your biggest problem. protection would cost more money.

that is if you were able to set up a viable farm. (i use farm because anything else would distort this idea, out of proportion.) it could take years and countless millions of dollars to set up a greenhouse, the size i've heard thrown around. and even if a greenhouse was established, now you have the question of how to distribute the food. most likely resulting in a form of rations, like that of the early americans, bordering on socialism.

but the thing is, it wouldn't be socialism because it wouldn't be a form of government. in the broad sense of the word. you'd merely be a community living on an island, that most likely won't have adequate farm land, protection, etc.

infrastructure takes years if not decades to step up. and another enormous amount of cash. at least equal to that of the island.

this just doesn't have the man power or the necessary funds to be viable. from what i can tell this idea will never leave these forums. the idea isn't revolutionary, micro-nations exist all throughout the world, but no one takes them seriously.

this whole idea conflicts with the revolution. we can defeat the system from within.
instead of entertaining fantasies of lost or castaway, we should be educating ourselves, spreading the message of freedom, and using all our effort to realize our true goal. freedom.

LibertiORDeth
02-26-2008, 10:13 PM
although it may be exciting to entertained the thought for a little while, the more you think about it, realistically, the more you realize it is pipe dreams.

the first problem that arises, i've heard estimates of 10 million for an island.
that of course is to own as private property. not as an independent sovereign nation.
this in such results in two problems,

raising a minimum of $10,000,000 and then even after that you still wouldn't be recognized as a sovereign nation. [/QUOTE]

Raising 10 million is very viable; If we had 1,000 people who each payed 10,000 the figure would be raised. After all, Ron Paul raised that a few times over!


what eventually would happen, when you attempted to succeed from the mother country, they wouldn't send an army or navy, they would laugh. this is the case in all micro-nations. you wouldn't pose a threat to the mother nation.

your actual problem, would be pirates. yes, pirates. they still exist. they have no moral judgement or respect for freedom. protection against these men would be your biggest problem. protection would cost more money.

Yes they do exist, however with our volunteer militia, (a large part of who have weapon training, and some with military experience) would be capable of defending ourselves.


that is if you were able to set up a viable farm. (i use farm because anything else would distort this idea, out of proportion.) it could take years and countless millions of dollars to set up a greenhouse, the size i've heard thrown around. and even if a greenhouse was established, now you have the question of how to distribute the food. most likely resulting in a form of rations, like that of the early americans, bordering on socialism.

Farmland would be plentiful, and the technology available to create efficient farm space would also be doable. If we had 1,000 people to start out with, we could feed them on a single acre of land, with modern farming equipments and techniques.


but the thing is, it wouldn't be socialism because it wouldn't be a form of government. in the broad sense of the word. you'd merely be a community living on an island, that most likely won't have adequate farm land, protection, etc.

infrastructure takes years if not decades to step up. and another enormous amount of cash. at least equal to that of the island.

this just doesn't have the man power or the necessary funds to be viable. from what i can tell this idea will never leave these forums. the idea isn't revolutionary, micro-nations exist all throughout the world, but no one takes them seriously.

The only "communism" involved would be in purchasing the land, after that we would have minimal government, low (if any) taxes, and free trade.

this whole idea conflicts with the revolution. we can defeat the system from within.
instead of entertaining fantasies of lost or castaway, we should be educating ourselves, spreading the message of freedom, and using all our effort to realize our true goal. freedom.[/QUOTE]
This is part of the revolution, not in conflict with it.

dust of nations
02-26-2008, 11:28 PM
this isn't revolution it's running away.

MalcolmGandi
02-27-2008, 04:21 AM
Has anyone posted anything yet about the Lakota tribe seceding from the US?

jason43
02-27-2008, 09:54 AM
Gaining international recognition as a country doesn't really matter. Being self sufficient DOES matter. How exactly would anyone "rule" you if you were on an island? The only way to enforce laws would be to invade the island... which would hardly be worth the effort. Essentially, no one loses.

The main thing is sustainability. Could we survive on the island. What natural resources would be there? How would we get water and trade with others for other goods? How would we generate revenue to buy those goods? Would we be able to get the internet to market things produced there? Would we be able to get livestock in order to have food? Would there be enough grass/hay to support these animals?

All those types of problems are the main issue. Also, what kind of population would we have to support? 100 people? 1000? If so, it would have to be a pretty big place just to support people food wise...

Then you get into problems with what kind of laws and punishments would be acceptable to people living there. Would you do a democratic style process for creating laws? Would the Island be set up like a real country, or an Anarcho-primivitist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism) retreat...

Then again, it could be opened as a tourist location and members could go there to spend vacations and so on depending on access... but if we aleinate the 'owner' country, the might cut off access to others coming there.

LibertiORDeth
02-28-2008, 12:02 PM
Gaining international recognition as a country doesn't really matter. Being self sufficient DOES matter. How exactly would anyone "rule" you if you were on an island? The only way to enforce laws would be to invade the island... which would hardly be worth the effort. Essentially, no one loses.

The main thing is sustainability. Could we survive on the island. What natural resources would be there? How would we get water and trade with others for other goods? How would we generate revenue to buy those goods? Would we be able to get the internet to market things produced there? Would we be able to get livestock in order to have food? Would there be enough grass/hay to support these animals?

All those types of problems are the main issue. Also, what kind of population would we have to support? 100 people? 1000? If so, it would have to be a pretty big place just to support people food wise...

Then you get into problems with what kind of laws and punishments would be acceptable to people living there. Would you do a democratic style process for creating laws? Would the Island be set up like a real country, or an Anarcho-primivitist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-primitivism) retreat...

Then again, it could be opened as a tourist location and members could go there to spend vacations and so on depending on access... but if we aleinate the 'owner' country, the might cut off access to others coming there.

The details of the government, amount of original residents, and laws/enforcement of laws are still being worked out, however this will not end up being total anarchy, it will probably be similar to the intended government by the founding fathers.

Zavoi
02-28-2008, 05:29 PM
The Libertarian Nation Foundation and the Free Nation Foundation had what I think is the right idea: make sure all these governmental, economic, geographic, and logistics issues are resolved before any migration takes place. However, these groups appear to be defunct, no activity having taken place for nearly a year.

If this idea is to be seriously implemented over the next several years, I think it needs its own website, with a forum (which the LNF and FNF websites lack).

Sorry if I'm repeating what other people have already said - I haven't read and retained all 21 pages.

billyjoeallen
02-28-2008, 05:48 PM
ownership without soveriegnty is not true ownership and sovereignty is effectively unattainable. If you try to create a tax haven, organ market or sex tourism economy, you will discover immediately that the U.S won't allow you to exist. Look at poor little Lichenshctien today. Germany is leaning hard on the tiny principality for being a tax haven.

You have two problems. First, buying a island as private property from an owner. Second, obtaining soveriegn status as an independent country. The second part is just as neccessary as the first, but it just about impossible to achieve.

pahs1994
02-28-2008, 07:49 PM
Wow, i just came across this thread. $10,000 to own a share of the island doesnt sound like alot. i went to community college and have a crappy logistics job so i doubt i would bring much expertise, but if you guys ever get real serious about this thing and need someone to do a crappy job let me know lol. better to hate my job on a cool island than hate my job in the dump i live in now

mediahasyou
02-28-2008, 08:03 PM
ownership without soveriegnty is not true ownership and sovereignty is effectively unattainable. If you try to create a tax haven, organ market or sex tourism economy, you will discover immediately that the U.S won't allow you to exist. Look at poor little Lichenshctien today. Germany is leaning hard on the tiny principality for being a tax haven.

I agree. Barrack Obama said he's going to diplomaticly pressure and sue companies in taxen haven countries. No one ever said it was going to be easy.

pahs1994
02-28-2008, 08:23 PM
Hey i was looking around on the net and i came across this article in wikipedia on the Republic of Lakotah. apparently the native americans are trying to get their own country. which i think they deserve. but it seems not all native american leaders are getting on board with the idea so our government isn't taking them very seriously. pretty interesting read though for all of you secessionists .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Lakotah
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

Edit: Also, it seems if they succeed in gaining independance they will pretty much run a libertarian government and they are leaning towards the gold standard for thier currency

LibertiORDeth
02-29-2008, 12:15 PM
Hey i was looking around on the net and i came across this article in wikipedia on the Republic of Lakotah. apparently the native americans are trying to get their own country. which i think they deserve. but it seems not all native american leaders are getting on board with the idea so our government isn't taking them very seriously. pretty interesting read though for all of you secessionists .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Lakotah
http://www.republicoflakotah.com/

Edit: Also, it seems if they succeed in gaining independance they will pretty much run a libertarian government and they are leaning towards the gold standard for thier currency

That was posted on here a while back. I am sure the government won't allow it for long, however. You are not safe as long as you are in America.

LibertiORDeth
02-29-2008, 09:34 PM
Wow, i just came across this thread. $10,000 to own a share of the island doesnt sound like alot. i went to community college and have a crappy logistics job so i doubt i would bring much expertise, but if you guys ever get real serious about this thing and need someone to do a crappy job let me know lol. better to hate my job on a cool island than hate my job in the dump i live in now

We can use you anyways ;)

mkeller
02-29-2008, 11:52 PM
If this idea is to be seriously implemented over the next several years, I think it needs its own website, with a forum (which the LNF and FNF websites lack).
A forum of sorts is already in place! Have a look here:

http://libertyisland.netfreehost.com/index.php?mforum=libertyisland

Flirple
03-01-2008, 02:06 AM
I admit to not reading through this entire thread but in case nobody has pointed out the obvious yet I will... Antarctica!:rolleyes:

What better way to demonstrate the power of the free market than to be the first to colonize a giant inhospitable island of Ice? I'm imagining huge biospheres so that we could be outside while being inside.... ...The possibilities are endless!... ...And there is no government in place and no permanent population has ever occupied this island! ...It's a fresh start!

Zavoi
03-01-2008, 05:44 AM
I admit to not reading through this entire thread but in case nobody has pointed out the obvious yet I will... Antarctica!:rolleyes:

What better way to demonstrate the power of the free market than to be the first to colonize a giant inhospitable island of Ice? I'm imagining huge biospheres so that we could be outside while being inside.... ...The possibilities are endless!... ...And there is no government in place and no permanent population has ever occupied this island! ...It's a fresh start!
A little too fresh for most people's taste. ;)

LibertiORDeth
03-01-2008, 04:00 PM
A little too fresh for most people's taste. ;)

Yes, I vote no :p

LibertiORDeth
03-02-2008, 07:49 PM
If this idea is to be seriously implemented over the next several years, I think it needs its own website, with a forum (which the LNF and FNF websites lack).

Sorry if I'm repeating what other people have already said - I haven't read and retained all 21 pages.

Already being implemented...

Allen72289
03-02-2008, 10:07 PM
We need something like freedom ship.

We could use a material called thermoformed carbon fiber which costs 80% less to produce than vacuum formed carbon fiber and is 60% less weight and 5-6 times stronger than steel.

The material is so light weight it pays for itself in a very short time in fuel savings.

I honestly think such a vessel would serve best as off shore tax exempt havens etc.

I will pursue this through out my life if the stupid UN doesn't dictate the oceans by the time I have the capital for it.

We could also use this to set up internet via satellite etc.

LibertiORDeth
03-03-2008, 10:13 AM
We need something like freedom ship.

We could use a material called thermoformed carbon fiber which costs 80% less to produce than vacuum formed carbon fiber and is 60% less weight and 5-6 times stronger than steel.

The material is so light weight it pays for itself in a very short time in fuel savings.

I honestly think such a vessel would serve best as off shore tax exempt havens etc.

I will pursue this through out my life if the stupid UN doesn't dictate the oceans by the time I have the capital for it.

We could also use this to set up internet via satellite etc.

No I think an island would be the best; That way we would have much more room, and natural resources. A ship would just be too costly.

shaunish
03-03-2008, 11:28 AM
My family and I are 100% behind this. I have actually given it much thought, and started to draft up lists of things that need to happen, and prices for the initial infrastructure. I gave my share to the RP campaign, and am willing to by in to this.

btw, all of you people that think the US will nuke us for defecting are retarded.

LibertiORDeth
03-03-2008, 11:41 AM
My family and I are 100% behind this. I have actually given it much thought, and started to draft up lists of things that need to happen, and prices for the initial infrastructure. I gave my share to the RP campaign, and am willing to by in to this.

btw, all of you people that think the US will nuke us for defecting are retarded.

Awesome. So far about half of the people who know about this have signed on.

Allen72289
03-03-2008, 12:14 PM
A ship wouldn't be to costly if it were ran as a non-profit tax haven.

This would cover operating cost.

Aren't there a few independent nations along Alaska?

The population is so low in those communities you could just move a few hundred there and change the laws over night with the voting majority.

I think the key is to have a small island or boat ran as a tax haven for business of freedom minded people abroad.

The sort of ship I'm talking about would stay anchored 24/7 only to move if hazardous weather begins therefore you wouldn't have much fuel cost.


The numbers do need to be ran though.

Btw, thermoformed carbon fiber can snap together like legos. We could build a floating nation within a fraction of the time it would take to build a steel hull.

So, what islands have we found so far with similar ideals and and easy democratic voting process?

Preferably a Republic.

Thermoformed carbon fiber could also allow us to expand the island using house boats and floating hydroponic platforms for agriculture.

In other words we could use the ocean as our farm land.

LibertiORDeth
03-03-2008, 12:30 PM
A ship wouldn't be to costly if it were ran as a non-profit tax haven.

This would cover operating cost.

Aren't there a few independent nations along Alaska?

The population is so low in those communities you could just move a few hundred there and change the laws over night with the voting majority.

I think the key is to have a small island or boat ran as a tax haven for business of freedom minded people abroad.

The sort of ship I'm talking about would stay anchored 24/7 only to move if hazardous weather begins therefore you wouldn't have much fuel cost.


The numbers do need to be ran though.

Btw, thermoformed carbon fiber can snap together like legos. We could build a floating nation within a fraction of the time it would take to build a steel hull.

So, what islands have we found so far with similar ideals and and easy democratic voting process?

Preferably a Republic.

Thermoformed carbon fiber could also allow us to expand the island using house boats and floating hydroponic platforms for agriculture.

In other words we could use the ocean as our farm land.

The plan is to find an island, purchase it, then declare ourselves a sovereign nation. I think a floating island is out of the question, unless someone can give me the figures on it, and they come out cheap enough.

Allen72289
03-03-2008, 02:22 PM
You won't be able to buy an island and declare Independence.

Gotta find an small nation which is independent.

Growing the island with house boats and hydroponic farm land is cost effective.

LibertiORDeth
03-03-2008, 03:05 PM
You won't be able to buy an island and declare Independence.

Gotta find an small nation which is independent.

Growing the island with house boats and hydroponic farm land is cost effective.

Why can't we declare independence?

Allen72289
03-03-2008, 05:12 PM
I suppose you could however, we would be treated as moronic clowns to the mother nation.

Small independent nation which can operate as a tax haven etc. for freedom minded people abroad would end the fed as we know it.

Lololol. I could imagine if such a tax haven were in place the IRS would get the president to send naval blockades our way.

Allen72289
03-03-2008, 06:45 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru


:D I FOUND ONE!


It's a republic which has already attempted a tax haven based economy. :cool:

Perfect material.

LibertiORDeth
03-04-2008, 10:26 AM
The project is underway and going strong.

pahs1994
03-05-2008, 12:21 AM
What is your web site? someone pm me but i lost it

FireofLiberty
03-05-2008, 01:01 AM
We could always buy Sealand ;) Sure not all of us could live on it, but it has the added benefit of being a recognized Micronation.

Kludge
03-05-2008, 02:30 AM
We could always buy Sealand ;) Sure not all of us could live on it, but it has the added benefit of being a recognized Micronation.

Absurdly small, but it's already in the news and is "guaranteed" independence. There've been a number of attempts to achieve minarchy/anarchy throughout history.... All have failed due to outside forces.

But... If we could start a utopia underwater, where no one would find us.... ;)

FireofLiberty
03-05-2008, 03:04 AM
Absurdly small, but it's already in the news and is "guaranteed" independence. There've been a number of attempts to achieve minarchy/anarchy throughout history.... All have failed due to outside forces.

But... If we could start a utopia underwater, where no one would find us.... ;)

We could also turn it into a for-profit venture by allowing companies, groups and organizations to "locate" there to avoid U.S. law, namely The Pirate Bay.

LibertiORDeth
03-05-2008, 11:13 AM
We could also turn it into a for-profit venture by allowing companies, groups and organizations to "locate" there to avoid U.S. law, namely The Pirate Bay.

That is partly what we are doing.

Kludge
03-05-2008, 01:28 PM
We could also turn it into a for-profit venture by allowing companies, groups and organizations to "locate" there to avoid U.S. law, namely The Pirate Bay

Blowback will hit us hard. I doubt we'd be able to achieve any type of practical internet access after being embargoed/unrecognized by the world.


Edit: see political pressure on Naaru ;)

Those people are hardcore though.... I'd consider moving there if US ever "failed".

pilby
03-05-2008, 01:53 PM
ok. i've read the whole thread and haven't seen any links to this yet. anyone know anything about Michael Oliver and the Pheonix Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Foundation)? sounds like he was totally serious and willing to put up serious money to get something like this off the ground. and if creating land in international water isn't a viable way to create a sovereign nation, what is?

wonder what he's up to these days.

PinkPatriot
03-05-2008, 02:05 PM
We could take over part of Mexico. I vote for Cozumel.

brianewart
03-05-2008, 02:12 PM
Remember, we need to have enough farmland to feed everyone on the island...

Food could be imported. Curacao imports a lot of their produce from Venezuela, for example.

Kludge
03-05-2008, 02:28 PM
Food could be imported. Curacao imports a lot of their produce from Venezuela, for example.

History says importing food/water/oil is a BAAAAAAD idea...

jason43
03-05-2008, 02:44 PM
History says importing food/water/oil is a BAAAAAAD idea...

Cause all it would take would be one navy ship and everyone starves to death? Something along those lines?

Kludge
03-05-2008, 02:55 PM
Cause all it would take would be one navy ship and everyone starves to death? Something along those lines?

Yes. Country Co-Ops (UN, EU etc.) won't like us establishing an island for corporations to evade their taxes and would likely embargo us. I can't imagine many corporations taking the risk of setting up their HQ in such a "hot" area.

Zavoi
03-05-2008, 11:00 PM
Is something wrong with the Liberty Island forum? It doesn't seem to be accepting new posts.

Allen72289
03-06-2008, 12:19 AM
With a small island you could build house boats and hydroponic farmland for food and real estate.

Idk. Such a project would take so much effort I believe it is easier to be elected into congress and fix our own nation.

LibertiORDeth
03-06-2008, 11:35 AM
ok. i've read the whole thread and haven't seen any links to this yet. anyone know anything about Michael Oliver and the Pheonix Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Foundation)? sounds like he was totally serious and willing to put up serious money to get something like this off the ground. and if creating land in international water isn't a viable way to create a sovereign nation, what is?

wonder what he's up to these days.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=125799

That good enough?

LibertiORDeth
03-06-2008, 11:36 AM
Food could be imported. Curacao imports a lot of their produce from Venezuela, for example.

We can feed 100 people on an acre of land...

LibertiORDeth
03-06-2008, 11:43 AM
Is something wrong with the Liberty Island forum? It doesn't seem to be accepting new posts.

Really? Hmmm...

LibertiORDeth
03-06-2008, 11:43 AM
With a small island you could build house boats and hydroponic farmland for food and real estate.

Idk. Such a project would take so much effort I believe it is easier to be elected into congress and fix our own nation.

Good luck...

LibertiORDeth
03-06-2008, 11:54 AM
Is something wrong with the Liberty Island forum? It doesn't seem to be accepting new posts.

Do you mean the old or new one?

Zavoi
03-06-2008, 03:23 PM
I'm referring to http://libertyisland.netfreehost.com/. I didn't know there were two. What's the other one?

EDIT: I found the new one by googling. I guess the old one is deprecated. Ignore this message.

LibertiORDeth
03-06-2008, 04:54 PM
I'm referring to http://libertyisland.netfreehost.com/. I didn't know there were two. What's the other one?

EDIT: I found the new one by googling. I guess the old one is deprecated. Ignore this message.

You did? I didn't know you could find it through Google. It is also at

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1324314#post1324314

LibertiORDeth
03-07-2008, 03:19 PM
We could take over part of Mexico. I vote for Cozumel.

Philippines looks good...

WolfRaven
03-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Philippines looks good...
heheh. I doubt the muslims in the Philippines would welcome us if we decided to take a portion of their country.

Jon4Paul
03-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Believe me the Muslims have tried taking a piece of Mindanao for over 40 years. I don't think they have had much success. Besides, the US is providing a lot of the military support to kill the rebels with the joint operations they do. The casualty rates for a Philippines plan would be staggering.

I gurantee the MILF and a few other rebel groups would be glad to take any Americans hostage and ransom you back to your families.

Might as well say Myanmar lol. Did anyone watch the latest Rambo?

LibertiORDeth
03-07-2008, 07:47 PM
heheh. I doubt the muslims in the Philippines would welcome us if we decided to take a portion of their country.

A small island would be acceptable, especially if we purchase independence.

LibertiORDeth
03-07-2008, 08:11 PM
Believe me the Muslims have tried taking a piece of Mindanao for over 40 years. I don't think they have had much success. Besides, the US is providing a lot of the military support to kill the rebels with the joint operations they do. The casualty rates for a Philippines plan would be staggering.

I gurantee the MILF and a few other rebel groups would be glad to take any Americans hostage and ransom you back to your families.

Might as well say Myanmar lol. Did anyone watch the latest Rambo?

Like I said, we will probably purchase independence.