Is the John Birch Society Reputable?

[Fox McCloud]

Ok, this is obviously getting ignored in the other topic (it's in a weird sub-forum, and it's a topic that probably won't get a lot of views). But, my question is, is the JBS a society of good standing? I've contemplated joining, but I've heard a few bad things, of late.

My main concerns are these:


I've been inundated with papers written about the JBS and how bad they are...and how they're part of the "right wing" of the Hegelian Dialectic (Anothony Sutton wrote about this)...there's some guy named "Ernie" who's supposedly obtained many documents about them from the FBI via FOIA....

*sigh* there's so much evidence on both side FOR the JBS and AGAINST them, that I don't know what to think...on the surface, I support them, but is there something sinister at work? Either way, I can provide the various article for you guys to debunk (I'd love for you to)...but it's just all so confusing. I often think, however, there are is so much disinformation fused with true information that the end result is to get someone like me in this situation--they're do disillusioned they don't know what to think.

Either way, the JBS did go up by about 2 levels, in my book, after reading that Alan Stang article said and watching the interview.

I've long been a supporter of the JBS, but after coming across some information, I'm slightly skeptical....if I could find some evidence to point to the fact that they're "ok", however...then I may actually think about joining them (which I've thought about doing off and on in the past).

*sigh* My head is freaking spinning.


however, at the same time:


The more I find out about this "Ernie" the stranger he is--the ONLY time I ever see him posting on the Internet, it's always about tearing down the JBS and propping up the FBI files he's obtained---I have yet to see him post anything other than this (and he's posted a decent amount). His full name is "Ernie Lazar"--you'll come up with a decent amount if you Google that....also if you google "ernie JBS" and other like combinations, you'll come up with like information..it even appears he bashed them on Amazon.com

http://birchers.blogspot.com/2005/10...h-society.html
http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/jbs-1

Interestingly enough, he's cited as being an "acknowledgement" in the book "Right-Wing Populism in America: Too Close for Comfort".....I haven't read the book, but it'd be interesting to see if it props up liberal ideologies.

Like I said, I'm not presenting these to bash them, myself--I'd just prefer someone debunk/provide a logical explanation for this.
This guy also goes by "ernie1241", and again, you'll find that 95% of his posts are regurgitating how bad conspiracies theories are (and how they're really politically driven) and how the JBS is bad...and he always points it to his website.

It also appears he's no fan of Ron Paul either, as he posted this: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg02648.html

on a newsgroup site.

I'd really appreciate a rebuttal of these claims, an explanation, logical proceeding, etc.

[Malakai0]

The JBS has been a pro-american-sovereignty group for a long time. I just watched a video yesterday of one of their chairmen on crossfire with pat buchanon and some neocon back when pat was pretty damn young.

They talked about stuff I've never heard of going all the way back to the 50's and 60's, how the neocons of the day funneled us tax dollars to communists ect. The guy apparently was RP's mentor? Their arguments were certainly very similar in nature, he was very pro-constitution.

JBS has been one of the biggest opponents of the NAU for a long time. I believe they are reputable, absolutely. We know what kind of political slander the establishment types will make up about true pro-liberty groups.

[raystone]

a couple of guys in my meetup are members, they love the John Birch Society. Decades ago, a white supremacist smear campaign instigated by the establishment hurt them, and they are still recovering.

[Malakai0]

Yeah then before that the smear campaign against them was that they were crazy conspiracy theorists. When they were in fact, quite spot on looking back in their views and statements =)

[BigRedBrent]

Overview of America
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6732659166933078950

[constituent]

this one pretty much tells the whole story like none other could (http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=questionM06&refpage=membership).

[WilliamC]

The John Birch Society has a bad reputation among the establishment for much the same reasons that Ron Paul does.

They speak truth to power.

[ToryNotion]

i'm a dedicated follower of brother john birch
and i belong to the antioch baptist church
and i ain't got a garage
you can call up and ask my wife...

excerpted from Uneasy Rider by Charlie Daniels

[inibo]

All my life--I'm 52--I've heard the John Birch Society were right wing wacko racists, but when I've actually looked at what they say and do I see nothing of the kind. They seem like straight up paleo's to me. I suspect they've been misrepresented from the beginning because they say things the establishment does not want to hear. Sound familiar?

[Cleaner44]

The John Birch Society has a bad reputation among the establishment for much the same reasons that Ron Paul does.

They speak truth to power.

+1

[Dr.3D]

I'm a member and don't see any problem with what they/we are saying. I believe the establishment is trying to make them/us look bad, just like they try to make Ron Paul look bad.

[BuddyRey]

My opinion: JBS is no more or less corrupt than many other right-wing activist groups. Though, in a recent video of theirs that I watched, they defended the Vietnam War and blamed "the liberal media" for promoting a defeatist attitude.

They seem to think that war is justified, as long as it's fought against Communists. That's the only social ill they seem to discourage in most of the literature I've seen, and I happen to believe the problem is MUCH more complex than this. Communism as the ultimate evil is an oversimplification, as excessive nationalism or Fascism is easily just as harmful, in my opinion.

[FrankRep]

John Birch Society is very trustworthy in my opinion.

I've joined my local chapter.


http://www.JBS.org/

[Georgian for Ron Paul]

Overview of America
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6732659166933078950

Fantastic Video. Thank you very much.

[Bern]

I once got in a conversation with a person who excoriated Ron Paul for his support of the JBS. It was an interesting conversation that raised some serious questions about the JBS.

Ron Paul, The John Birch Society, and Individual Liberty (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=664080)

[FrankRep]

I once got in a conversation with a person who excoriated Ron Paul for his support of the JBS. It was an interesting conversation that raised some serious questions about the JBS.

Ron Paul, The John Birch Society, and Individual Liberty (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=664080)


What are some criticisms of the JBS?

[Bern]

Why not click the link and read the thread? The conversation cannot be nicely summed up in a couple sentences.

[Fox McCloud]

this one pretty much tells the whole story like none other could (http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=questionM06&refpage=membership).

Thanks--that really cleared a few things up.

I figure, in any political organization, there will be agent provocateurs, spies, and fanatics...plus, it sound like they've really done a lot more research in recent years and are a little bit wiser. Either way, thanks again for the link. I really appreciate it--it puts me at ease considerably.

[FreeTraveler]

I once got in a conversation with a person who excoriated Ron Paul for his support of the JBS. It was an interesting conversation that raised some serious questions about the JBS.

Ron Paul, The John Birch Society, and Individual Liberty (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=664080)

The slant of the OP of that thread becomes obvious after reading it. He admits at one point to being a Socialist, and seems to think that he would be "targeted" by JBS. Personally, I consider Socialists [expletive deleted by poster :D]. Anybody who thinks they have a right to my productive efforts is perfectly entitled to the productive efforts of my target practice, and nothing else.

The US Constitution was designed to protect us from scum-sucking bottom feeders who think they have a right to take what it rightfully ours for their own purposes. I consider ANYONE who believes in the rights of the group over the individual as TREASONOUS to the U.S. Constitution, as described in Article III, Section 3. Of course, since "Congress" decides the punishment for treason, they've decided that the "punishment" is passing of bills supported by these treasonous individuals.

[youngbuck]

They have a really good newsletter that goes out, and a lot of the authors are well known and very smart: www.newswithviews.com

I've been subscribed to it for quite a while, and must say it's quite good.

[ThePieSwindler]

My problem with the JBS is that its a bit too nationalistic, protectionist, and nativist. They have some excellent views on some issues, and i consider them allies and friends in the fight for liberty, but not all their aims are favorable.

[Fox McCloud]

My problem with the JBS is that its a bit too nationalistic, protectionist, and nativist. They have some excellent views on some issues, and i consider them allies and friends in the fight for liberty, but not all their aims are favorable.

there's a few things I disagree with them on, as well...but no political party, organization, or politician is perfect.

[ernie1241]

Since I am the person about whom falsehoods were posted above, I am taking this opportunity to belatedly correct the record.

(1) First, my internet postings have nothing to do with "tearing down the JBS". Instead, I am sharing FACTUAL evidence which it has taken me more than 27 years, and great expense, to acquire. Furthermore, the factual evidence originates from a source whom both Robert Welch and the JBS have emphatically and effusively praised as our nation's most knowledgeable, reliable and authoritative source regarding internal security matters -- and in particular -- the communist movement within the U.S.

(2) I am the first and only person to acquire the entire FBI HQ file on the JBS (12,000 pages) along with most of the FBI field office files on the JBS. In addition, I have acquired numerous FBI files and documents pertaining to the Communist Party and various organizations characterized in a derogatory fashion by the JBS.

Since the JBS claims to be an "educational organization" – isn’t it pretty strange that the reader whose message I copied below is NOT interested in the data I have found and considers it worthless?

(3) Contrary to what the reader wrote below, I have posted numerous articles or bibliographies about topics other than the JBS. But even if I had not done so, what accounts for the hostility of this reader? Many scholars and researchers devote their entire careers to specializing in a single topic --- so why is that now a "suspect" activity?

(4) The reader quoted below mentions that material I have acquired was cited in a book. Actually, documents and files I have acquired have been cited by numerous scholars and researchers in their own writings. In addition, according to the latest "sitemeter" report on my JBS Report, more than 5000 people have accessed my JBS Report and I currently average about 70 additional readers per week. Significantly, many of the "hits" on my JBS Report (and my other articles) have come from a wide range of readers such as major college and university libraries, our military academies, various governmental agencies, and readers in numerous foreign countries.

(5) With respect to Ron Paul, I simply point out that I have defended Ron Paul in several Yahoo discussion groups from irrational critics of his libertarian principles. And, incidentally, I happen to be a libertarian myself!

(6) Finally, with respect to the overall argument of the Birch Society: Many people are not aware of the full scope of what the JBS believes. Robert Welch explained the JBS viewpoint at the first meeting of the JBS National Council held in Chicago on January 9, 1960 at the Union League Club. I copy below a few pertinent excerpts and then, for comparison purposes, I copy a statement by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. Judge for yourself whom to believe.

ROBERT WELCH TO JBS NATIONAL COUNCIL

“From a careful and realistic study of the mountainous pile of evidence that is there for all to see, certain terrifying conclusions are objectively inescapable. Among them are:
(1) The Communists are winning their large victories, as they always have, through the cumulative effect of small gains;
(2) They make these gains chiefly through the conniving assistance of many of the very diplomats and officials who are supposed to be opposing them;
(3) Communist influences are now in almost complete working control of our government;
(4) And hence, the United States Government is today, as it has been for many years, the most important and powerful single force promoting the world-wide Communist advance.”
[A Confidential Report To Members Of The COUNCIL of The John Birch Society – minutes of 1/9/60 meeting held at Union League Club in Chicago IL, page 1-2; minutes signed by Robert Welch.]

Furthermore:

"Today, gentlemen, I can assure you, without the slightest doubt in my own mind, that the takeover at the top is, for all practical purposes, virtually complete. Whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, our Federal Government is already, literally in the hands of the Communists." [Ibid, page 2]

"In our two states with the largest population, New York and California...already the two present Governors are almost certainly actual Communists...Our Congress now contains a number of men like Adam Clayton Powell of New York and Charles Porter of Oregon, who are certainly actual Communists, and plenty more who are sympathetic to Communist purposes for either ideological or opportunistic reasons." [Ibid, page 7]
[Note: the reference to Governors refers to Edmund G. Brown of California and Nelson Rockefeller of New York.]

"In the Senate, there are men like Stephen Young of Ohio, and Wayne Morse of Oregon, McNamara of Michigan, and Clifford Case of New Jersey and Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota and Estes Kefauver of Tennessee and John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts, whom it is utter folly to think of as just liberals. Every one of those men is either an actual Communist or so completely a Communist sympathizer or agent that it makes no practical difference..." [Ibid, page 8]

“Our Supreme Court, dominated by Earl Warren and Felix Frankfurter and Hugo Black, is so visibly pro-Communist that no argument is even needed…And our federal courts below that level…are in many cases just as bad.” [Ibid, page 8]

"Our State Department is loaded with Communists from top to bottom, to the extent that our roll call of Ambassadors almost sounds like a list somebody has put together to start a Communist front." ... [Ibid, page 8]

""It is estimated from many reliable sources that from 70% to 90% of the responsible personnel in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare are Communists. Our Central Intelligence Agency under Allen Dulles is nothing more or less than an agency to promote Communism throughout the world...Almost all the other Departments are loaded with Communists and Communist sympathizers. And this generalization most specifically does include our whole Defense Department." [Ibid, page 8]

versus J. Edgar Hoover statement:

"The Communist Party in this country has attempted to infiltrate and subvert every segment of our society, but its continuing efforts have not achieved success of any substance. Too many self-styled experts on communism, without valid credentials and without any access whatsoever to classified factual data regarding the inner workings of the conspiracy, have engaged in rumor-mongering and hurling false and wholly unsubstantiated allegations against persons whose views differ from their own. This is dangerous business. It is divisive and unintelligent, and makes more difficult the task of the professional investigator."


More information about my research and my reports may be seen here:
http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/home

Anybody wishing to ask me questions or share comments may contact me at:
ernie1241@aol.com


-------------------------------------------------------
EXCERPT FROM ORIGINAL MESSAGE POSTED HERE ABOUT ME:

The more I find out about this "Ernie" the stranger he is--the ONLY time I ever see him posting on the Internet, it's always about tearing down the JBS and propping up the FBI files he's obtained---I have yet to see him post anything other than this (and he's posted a decent amount). His full name is "Ernie Lazar"--you'll come up with a decent amount if you Google that....also if you google "ernie JBS" and other like combinations, you'll come up with like information..it even appears he bashed them on Amazon.com

http://birchers.blogspot.com/2005/10...h-society.html
http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/jbs-1

Interestingly enough, he's cited as being an "acknowledgement" in the book "Right-Wing Populism in America: Too Close for Comfort".....I haven't read the book, but it'd be interesting to see if it props up liberal ideologies.

Like I said, I'm not presenting these to bash them, myself--I'd just prefer someone debunk/provide a logical explanation for this.
This guy also goes by "ernie1241", and again, you'll find that 95% of his posts are regurgitating how bad conspiracies theories are (and how they're really politically driven) and how the JBS is bad...and he always points it to his website.

It also appears he's no fan of Ron Paul either, as he posted this: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg02648.html
on a newsgroup site. I'd really appreciate a rebuttal of these claims, an explanation, logical proceeding, etc.

[pcosmar]

Since I am the person about whom falsehoods were posted above, I am taking this opportunity to belatedly correct the record.



Thanks for posting.
Though the FBI is about as corrupt and organization as you could find, you will find little support for any of their findings here.
You sound very much like a supporter and mouthpiece for the ADL,

I can not think of a more Un-American organization.
Your views mirror theirs.

The FBI has been targeting and suppressing Freedom and Liberty minded Americans for years, just look at their activities during the Civil Rights Movement. Their harassment of war protesters.

Sorry, but your post was, FAIL.

[WRellim]

Ok, this is obviously getting ignored in the other topic (it's in a weird sub-forum, and it's a topic that probably won't get a lot of views). But, my question is, is the JBS a society of good standing? I've contemplated joining, but I've heard a few bad things, of late.

I'm going to address this from the perspective of your TITLE question, to wit:

Is the John Birch Society Reputable?

If I understand that question right, one could perhaps restate it as:
"What is the reputation of the John Birch Society?"

From what I have seen and heard over many years the "problem" with JBS is that they as a group were successfully made into a "caricature" -- and thus marginalized.

The media and pundits then USE that "caricature" whenever they want to demonize, marginalize, or dismiss the views of someone in right-wing politics -- regardless of whether the person they are "tagging" with that caricature has ever had anything to do with JBS or not, for example by saying "He may as well be a Bircher" they get everyone else to dismiss the person's statements out of hand. What the person's views are simply doesn't matter, once they attach the label "JBS" to someone, they are marginalized. (And I have seen this in a LARGE variety of political environments, whether from Democrats, Republicans, or Libertarians -- the response and technique is the same).

Most people upon hearing "John Birch" or the plural form "John Birchers" will roll their eyes in a way that signifies "oh, not THOSE wackos again." -- and this is especially true if one is having a discussion with a group (whereas when one talks privately with the same individual, they MAY give you a different response entirely -- and indeed even state that they HAVE read a lot of stuff from JBS and agreed with it or found it to be solid/substantial, etc.)


So, long and short, whether earned or falsely attributed, the "reputation" of JBS is fairly clear -- the group's name has become a caricature of "ill-repute" that is used as shorthand for "right-wing-wacko." (NOTE: At least this has been the situation over the past couple of decades -- but as the pundits from the 60 & 70's dies off, it *may* be changing.)

And if one joins the group in any way (i.e. you become a "card-carrying member") well, you should do so only with the understanding beforehand that "it CAN and WILL be used against you" in the future as a means of dismissing and discrediting you in anything and everything political without allowing your views to be heard.


SIDE NOTE: Similar "guilt by association" things abound around a host of other groups and names. Depending on the "leanings" of the people you are with, mentioning "Ayn Rand" or "Objectivism" will either earn a hearty "Amen!" -- or an exasperated "Oh NO, not HER again!" Or if one brings up "Ross Perot" the response may be "Egads" followed by jokes about pie charts & pointers (meant either affectionately or disparagingly). Other examples -- more specifically with and among RP supporters -- would be the mere mention of someone attending a CFR function or conversely, of someone being an "Alex Jones" devotee, etc. My point being that in politics a LOT of "weird" caricatures are used as shorthand... the caricature of "John Birch Society" is simply one of the stronger and more enduring ones.

[WRellim]

Since I am the person about whom falsehoods were posted above, I am taking this opportunity to belatedly correct the record.

[...]

(2) I am the first and only person to acquire the entire FBI HQ file on the JBS (12,000 pages) along with most of the FBI field office files on the JBS.

[...]




Personally, I wouldn't accept ANYTHING that comes from an FBI file as having anything more than "hear-say" value (and I mean that in the LEGAL understanding of the term hear-say as "insignificant, and just as likely to be full of lies as containing any truth" -- and therefore NOT admissible as evidence.)

Secondly, since the vast majority of the "files" in question come from the J. Edgar Hoover era... well, I would downgrade them another ten notches or so (all the while keeping in mind that Hoover himself was more than a bit shall we say "wacko" -- but of course I mean that in a nice way, not meaning to offend anyone of the cross-dressing persuasion :rolleyes:).

The point being that the goal of the FBI at the time was to dig up "dirt" on people -- any and every particle of dirt available was sucked up by the "Hoover" vacuum and deposited in their files. (I'm certain if you looked at MY files from the 1960's you would be likely to find me labeled as a "potential environmentalist" :eek: because I believe I was into drawing lots of picture of trees with crayons during recess on rainy days -- and who knows, maybe they would even have labeled me as a "commie-sympathizer" since I was willing to, and indeed even observed engaging in the active sharing of my toys with other kids).

[emazur]

Does the JBS have any religious agenda and do they welcome atheist members? I haven't seen them pushing religion in any video or document they've put out, but I have seen them use the word God enough times to feel I have to ask this question.

[TruthisTreason]

When it comes to Russia and the drug war, the JBS are losers. That's coming from a dues paying member.

[Matt Collins]

All my life--I'm 52--I've heard the John Birch Society were right wing wacko racists, but when I've actually looked at what they say and do I see nothing of the kind. They seem like straight up paleo's to me. I suspect they've been misrepresented from the beginning because they say things the establishment does not want to hear. Sound familiar?My parents are 60 and the only thing they know about them is "they're a bunch of racist gun / conspiracy nuts". Even though my parents are conservative and would agree with pretty much everything the JBS seems to stand for. Whoever did the negative PR spin campaign against the JBS did such a remarkable job that apparently it is still being faught decades later.

[LibertyEagle]

ROBERT WELCH TO JBS NATIONAL COUNCIL

“From a careful and realistic study of the mountainous pile of evidence that is there for all to see, certain terrifying conclusions are objectively inescapable. Among them are:
(1) The Communists are winning their large victories, as they always have, through the cumulative effect of small gains;
(2) They make these gains chiefly through the conniving assistance of many of the very diplomats and officials who are supposed to be opposing them;
(3) Communist influences are now in almost complete working control of our government;
(4) And hence, the United States Government is today, as it has been for many years, the most important and powerful single force promoting the world-wide Communist advance.”
[A Confidential Report To Members Of The COUNCIL of The John Birch Society – minutes of 1/9/60 meeting held at Union League Club in Chicago IL, page 1-2; minutes signed by Robert Welch.]

Furthermore:

"Today, gentlemen, I can assure you, without the slightest doubt in my own mind, that the takeover at the top is, for all practical purposes, virtually complete. Whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, our Federal Government is already, literally in the hands of the Communists." [Ibid, page 2]

"In our two states with the largest population, New York and California...already the two present Governors are almost certainly actual Communists...Our Congress now contains a number of men like Adam Clayton Powell of New York and Charles Porter of Oregon, who are certainly actual Communists, and plenty more who are sympathetic to Communist purposes for either ideological or opportunistic reasons." [Ibid, page 7]
[Note: the reference to Governors refers to Edmund G. Brown of California and Nelson Rockefeller of New York.]

"In the Senate, there are men like Stephen Young of Ohio, and Wayne Morse of Oregon, McNamara of Michigan, and Clifford Case of New Jersey and Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota and Estes Kefauver of Tennessee and John F. Kennedy of Massachusetts, whom it is utter folly to think of as just liberals. Every one of those men is either an actual Communist or so completely a Communist sympathizer or agent that it makes no practical difference..." [Ibid, page 8]

“Our Supreme Court, dominated by Earl Warren and Felix Frankfurter and Hugo Black, is so visibly pro-Communist that no argument is even needed…And our federal courts below that level…are in many cases just as bad.” [Ibid, page 8]

"Our State Department is loaded with Communists from top to bottom, to the extent that our roll call of Ambassadors almost sounds like a list somebody has put together to start a Communist front." ... [Ibid, page 8]

""It is estimated from many reliable sources that from 70% to 90% of the responsible personnel in the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare are Communists. Our Central Intelligence Agency under Allen Dulles is nothing more or less than an agency to promote Communism throughout the world...Almost all the other Departments are loaded with Communists and Communist sympathizers. And this generalization most specifically does include our whole Defense Department." [Ibid, page 8]



lololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And WHAT exactly about this do you take issue with?

It was TRUE.

Truth hurts, Ernie. :)

I guess you haven't read much from several ex-Commies or read the internal records that the Russians opened when Reagan was in office.

[youngbuck]

I would call the JBS reputable. I remember a few years back their reputation was on rocky ground. I think some of the top leadership was in question. But, as far as I know, and as of recently, everything should be good to go. I have ordered a few books from them that were excellent. Some of their documentaries are also excellent.

While not perfect, I would indeed say they are "reputable."

[hypnagogue]

Too christian. I'd work with 'em but I'm not going to join.

[ernie1241]

Pcosmar:

I will briefly address a couple of your points.

Many critics respond in the same manner as you have by referring to the FBI as a "corrupt organization".

But I think you have missed a very important aspect of this topic.

First, the FBI is an institution which employed tens of thousands of investigators and technical experts to discover information about matters under its jurisdiction. By law, it is designated as our nation's primary internal security resource.

MOST of the data in FBI files comes from outside independent sources---so when you label the FBI as "corrupt", you are, in effect, describing its original primary information sources as "corrupt". This would include, for example, ALL of the following (although this is not an exhaustive list):

* local and state law enforcement agencies (including Police Departments, County Sheriffs, State Police, local and state courts, etc.)
* military intelligence (G2=Army, ONI=Naval, OSI=Air Force)
* state and national legislative investigating committees (such as House Committee on UnAmerican Activities, Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, and various state Un-American Activities committees
* other internal security units such as within cabinet agencies (the State Department for example), the Civil Service Commission, Postal Service, Atomic Energy Commission, as well as the Loyalty Review Board and Subversive Activities Control Board
* foreign governments
* thousands of informants within both subversive and non-subversive organizations who provided raw data to the FBI [Incidentally, this INCLUDES JBS members/endorsers, veterans organizations such as the American Legion, and retired military personnel!]

2. I have no connection of any kind with ADL and nothing I have written "mirrors" their views. This is a typical cheap shot by ignorant people who know nothing about what is contained in FBI files but want to discredit everything connected with the FBI.

3. Giants within our conservative and anti-communist communities recognized that, whatever its flaws, the FBI under Hoover performed competently. Whether it be the intellectuals (such as Russell Kirk, James Burnham, William Buckley Jr.,) or politicians (such as Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater) or publications such as Human Events, National Review, U.S. News and World Report) or Congressional committees (House Committee on UnAmerican Activities, Senate Internal Security Committee, Senate Judiciary Committee, etc.) ---- they all praised the FBI under Hoover's direction.

4. Lastly, you are, obviously, entitled to your personal opinion.

However, since Robert Welch and the Birch Society are on record on numerous occasions EXPLICITLY ENDORSING both Hoover and the FBI as an institution as an indisputably patriotic, reliable, and authoritative source of information ---- then one would think that JBS members and sympathizers would be curious about what Hoover's FBI thought with respect to JBS statements and assertions.

After all, the JBS is supposedly an "educational" organization -- and my research gives Birchers (and others) the opportunity to engage in a "reality check" to compare their beliefs against our nation's primary internal security resource.

The answer, in short, is as follows: The JBS is routinely described in FBI internal memos as "extremist", "irrational", "irresponsible", "fanatics" and "lunatic fringe".

WRellim

It is mythology to claim (as you wrote) that "media and pundits" dismissed the JBS based upon some unfair caricature. The most potent criticism of the JBS originated from WITHIN THE CONSERVATIVE and ANTI-COMMUNIST MOVEMENT. Prominent conservatives such as Russell Kirk, Eugene Lyons, Frank Meyer, Barry Goldwater, John Tower, William Buckley Jr., James Burnham, James J. Kilpatrick, William Loeb, Roy Cohn, Ronald Reagan, and many many others --- denounced and repudiated the JBS.

Furthermore, after 14 years of litigation, including review by the U.S. Supreme Court, the Birch Society lost an historic, precedent libel lawsuit because of its false and defamatory commentary about a Chicagoan. Two different juries on two different occasions heard the case and both found the JBS guilty of malicious libel. As a result, the JBS paid $100,000 in compensatory damages and $300,000 in punitive damages. This is but one of a number of libel lawsuits involving JBS surrogates who were found guilty of libel after they employed JBS arguments.

WITH RESPECT TO YOUR COMMENTS RE: HEARSAY EVIDENCE....

Might I ask you: have you actually reviewed any FBI investigatory files? I doubt it.

With respect to your comment about Hoover "cross-dressing"....Funny that in one sentence you dismiss "hearsay" but in the next you circulate hearsay which originated with Mafia sources. Even FBI scholars who are among Hoover's most severe critics (such as Dr. Athan Theoharis) have stated that the cross-dressing stories are false. Only people like yourself continue to spread that "hearsay".

[ernie1241]

Emazur

One of the first internal controversies within the JBS concerned whether or not the JBS should adopt a motto which mentioned God. From its inception, the JBS was heavily influenced and staffed by Catholics but it has not generally promoted any specific religious viewpoint.

There have been several internal religious controversies, however. Some of the dirty linen was published on Bircher Alan Stang's old website (which has now been taken down). In recent years, there also have been internal disputes regarding the extent of Mormon influence. Ezra Taft Benson was quite friendly with Robert Welch and he was asked to join the JBS National Council, but declined upon instruction from his church.

One of the original members of the JBS National Council (Revilo P. Oliver) was an atheist who was viciously anti-Christiian and anti-Jewish. Ultimately, he was expelled (or resigned---depending upon whose version of the story you accept) for his anti-semitic comments. He subsequently went on to write articles for the neo-nazi magazine, Liberty Bell.

Liberty Eagle

You wrote "Truth hurts Ernie".

May I ask how you came to your conclusion? Contary to what you assume, I have read a considerable amount of the literature written by "ex-commies" -- but since the FBI (and other agencies) utilized recollections and testimony by those "ex-commies" in its investigatory reports --- and several of my critics above have stated that the FBI is a "corrupt" organization whose information cannot be believed----then, presumably, you consider such data worthless?

One of the problems confronted by SERIOUS RESEARCHERS is that many JBS "experts" contradict each other or their own sworn testimony before Congress or in administrative hearings. I document this quite extensively in my JBS and Dan Smoot reports.

Therefore, for all of you in this forum who think the JBS is reliable source, then ultimately you have to confront three basic questions:

1. How do you decide whom and what to believe?
2. When two or more recommended sources of information flatly
contradict each other, how do you resolve the disputed evidence? What methodology is employed? What rules of evidence and logic are considered applicable?
3. Insofar as a recommended source of information contradicts himself/herself on two different occasions, how does one go about deciding (a) what is responsible for the contradictions and (b) how to resolve the conflicting data?

For example: BEFORE joining the Birch Society as paid speakers, former FBI informants Julia Brown and Lola Belle Holmes made statements under oath which FLATLY CONTRADICT their subsequent assertions in their writings and speeches under the auspices of the Birch Society. SO....which of their stories do you believe?

Similarly, when TWO sources which the JBS recommends as knowlegeable and reliable, flatly contradict one another --- then which should you believe? For an interesting example of this problem, see my report on Anatoli Golitsyn.

Links to all my reports and articles are here:


http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/home

[Roxi]

anyone seen the awesome video of the speech of the founder of JBS? ill try to find it

[Roxi]

ahhh here it is... this should tell you all you need to know

http://darkhorsetrader.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/robert-welch-founder-of-the-john-birch-society-predicted-it-all-50-years-ago/

[max]

When it comes to Russia and the drug war, the JBS are losers. That's coming from a dues paying member.

i used to be a member. I'm still sympathetic to the JBS...but they totally sold out on 9/11. JBS peddles the official story so as not to be too controversial and lose members.

JBS knows better. They KNOW 9/11 was an inside job yet they still parrot the Bin Laden fairy tale.

They also REFUSE to talk about Israeli domination of US foreign policy. Romor has it that they have some wealthy jewish donors so they take a pass on Zionism.

Other than that, I recommend their program as very educational.

[Chamdar]

The JBS has gotten better on foreign policy issues and civil liberties since the end of the Cold War, but somebody still needs to convince them that the drug war is no good.

I also take issue with how they keep blathering about Chicoms wanting suck our precious bodily fluids when it's our own government that's the bigger threat.

[Theocrat]

As a member of The John Birch Society, I can assure you that it is reputable. If you're not convinced, then perhaps these videos will help persuade you and give you confidence that they are on the right track to restore liberty in our republic:

YouTube - Overview of America 1 of 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTQQJOEn9yI)

YouTube - Overview of America 2 of 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW6AKVyi6As)

YouTube - Overview of America 3 0f 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23JIFy8Vm6Q)

YouTube - Overview of America 4 of 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I16M-qH3SbU)

[ernie1241]

Well, Theocrat, I'm sure we are all comforted and convinced by your endorsement of the JBS while totally ignoring all the data presented in this thread.

[Derek Johnson]

I'm a Bircher...they are very good people, and the magazine 'The New American' stands very tall among all publications.

Our Waco chapter is active and we have a good time, I'd very much encourage others to look into JBS.

[Dr.3D]

Seems the ones who don't like the JBS the most are members of the CFR.

[pcosmar]

Holy Thread Necro Batman!
The new guy shows up just to trash the JBS and support the FBI

??? I wonder what the purpose is???

I am not a member of JBS, but do appreciate the work they have done. They have taken a stand for many years, and have been often maligned for it.
I personally prefer the FFI,
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/
And a good comparison is located here,
http://www.freedom-force.org/pdf/jbschart.pdf

As to the FBI. It should not Exist. Period.. It has no place in a free Republic, is unconstititional, and has a history of nefarious activity.
SEE COINTELPRO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO For quick reference only
There is much info on the subject, Documented and in Congressional Record.

[Todd]

I'm a Bircher...they are very good people, and the magazine 'The New American' stands very tall among all publications.

Our Waco chapter is active and we have a good time, I'd very much encourage others to look into JBS.

I found the site "The New American" about 6 months ago and have never seen anything approaching 'racism' or anything disreputable on the site. I tend to find what is being said there as pretty much in line with liberty values. It wasn't until sometime later that I found it was linked to JBS.

[LibertyEagle]

Liberty Eagle

You wrote "Truth hurts Ernie".

May I ask how you came to your conclusion? Contary to what you assume, I have read a considerable amount of the literature written by "ex-commies" -- but since the FBI (and other agencies) utilized recollections and testimony by those "ex-commies" in its investigatory reports --- and several of my critics above have stated that the FBI is a "corrupt" organization whose information cannot be believed----then, presumably, you consider such data worthless?

One of the problems confronted by SERIOUS RESEARCHERS is that many JBS "experts" contradict each other or their own sworn testimony before Congress or in administrative hearings. I document this quite extensively in my JBS and Dan Smoot reports.

Therefore, for all of you in this forum who think the JBS is reliable source, then ultimately you have to confront three basic questions:

1. How do you decide whom and what to believe?
2. When two or more recommended sources of information flatly
contradict each other, how do you resolve the disputed evidence? What methodology is employed? What rules of evidence and logic are considered applicable?
3. Insofar as a recommended source of information contradicts himself/herself on two different occasions, how does one go about deciding (a) what is responsible for the contradictions and (b) how to resolve the conflicting data?

For example: BEFORE joining the Birch Society as paid speakers, former FBI informants Julia Brown and Lola Belle Holmes made statements under oath which FLATLY CONTRADICT their subsequent assertions in their writings and speeches under the auspices of the Birch Society. SO....which of their stories do you believe?

Similarly, when TWO sources which the JBS recommends as knowlegeable and reliable, flatly contradict one another --- then which should you believe? For an interesting example of this problem, see my report on Anatoli Golitsyn.

Links to all my reports and articles are here:


http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/home

There was nothing contradictory in what Welch said and I believe his claims, because I read what he wrote more than 35 years ago and watched much of it come to fruition during my life. One thing about the JBS is that they do a wonderful job of backing up their claims with a plethora of references. Ernie, you act like you're shocked about Welch's claim that our government, not to mention higher education, and media were infiltrated years ago. Since Welch's day, there have been others who have blown the whistle, so I'm not sure why it is such a shock to you. I mean, way back when, Whitaker Chambers blew the whistle on Alger Hiss. I remember well, after years of it being said a lie, how it was confirmed years later when the Soviets finally opened some of the records. I highly recommend his autobiography, "Witness", by the way.

Has the JBS been perfect? No. In fact, after Welch died, and then Larry MacDonald, there have been times that it was determined that the leadership was less than "true". As soon as it was discovered, they were weeded out. But, yes, they've been right. And because they were blowing the whistle on what was happening within our own country and had become quite influential, TPTB decided to take them out and they did.

All that said, I don't trust ANY organization or person 100%. I always believe in checking sources.

[AuH20]

Seems the ones who don't like the JBS the most are members of the CFR.

Exactly. JBS has been antagonizing them and their masters for decades. So in turn, the CFR framed them with the race card, thanks to the willing media. The elites are dispicable people who will manipulate the public with divisive lies. In actuality, these elites are the true racists who believe that blacks, hispanics and pacific islanders are intellectual inferiors that should serve their interests.

[AuH20]

lololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And WHAT exactly about this do you take issue with?

It was TRUE.

Truth hurts, Ernie. :)

I guess you haven't read much from several ex-Commies or read the internal records that the Russians opened when Reagan was in office.

Ex-KGB has even admitted their plans:
YouTube - Former KGB Agent Explains the Brainwashing of America 1980's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2fMeer5Mw)

[ernie1241]

Liberty Eagle: There are numerous contradictions in what Welch said but my original comment pertained to the sources which the JBS assured us were knowledgeable, authoritative and reliable and THEY often contradicted standard JBS dogma. For example, Lola Belle Holmes and Julia Brown were JBS members who also were paid speakers under the auspices of the Birch Society's Speakers Bureau. Both of them previously had been FBI informants inside the CPUSA. Both Lola and Julia EXPLICITLY stated in their sworn testimony before the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities or in other testimony and in their writings that the leadership of the NAACP [Walter White and Roy Wilkins for example] was ANTI-Communist and, moreover, the CPUSA "hated the NAACP". However, the official JBS position was precisely opposite.

Furthermore, Robert Welch and the JBS repeatedly and effusively praised J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI (in public comments and in private correspondence) as an indisputably knowledgeable and authoritative information source on the communist movement. Nevertheless, the FBI routinely discredited JBS premises and conclusions about all sorts of matters. [See my 82-page report on the JBS which is based, primarily, upon first-time-released FBI files and documents for specific details, here: http://ernie1241.googlepages.com/jbs-1 ]

Furthermore, giants within the conservative and anti-communist communities explicitly stated that Welch and the JBS were circulating FALSEHOODS and, in the process, they discredited legitimate anti-communist efforts. [See, for example, statements made by Sen. Barry Goldwater, Sen. John Tower, Cong. Walter Judd, Russell Kirk, James Burnham, Eugene Lyons, J. Edgar Hoover -- and many others.]

It is certainly commendable that you agree with me about the importance of "checking sources". If, however, you check the FBI headquarters file on the JBS, you will notice that senior officials of the FBI (including the Chief Inspector, their expert on communist matters) routinely described Robert Welch and the JBS as:
"extremist", "irrational", "irresponsible", "fanatics" and "lunatic fringe".

Furthermore, as I document in mind-numbing details in my JBS report (and in other reports), the assertions made by the JBS were frequently malicious falsehoods.

In fact, after 14 years of litigation including two jury trials, several appeals, and review by the U.S. Supreme Court -- the Birch Society paid one plaintiff $400,000 for its libelous article about that person which was published in the JBS magazine. $300,000 of that libel award was for malice -- i.e. "reckless disregard for the truth".

Surrogates of the JBS utilized JBS arguments in other libel lawsuits -- and they ALSO lost! As you know, the standard of proof in a courtroom is much higher than in casual conversation in a forum such as this one, or in discussions you might have on the porch while sipping beer with some friends. The point is that when the JBS (or its surrogates) have been required to PROVE their statements, more often than not, they LOST libel lawsuits.


There was nothing contradictory in what Welch said and I believe his claims, because I read what he wrote more than 35 years ago and watched much of it come to fruition during my life. One thing about the JBS is that they do a wonderful job of backing up their claims with a plethora of references. Ernie, you act like you're shocked about Welch's claim that our government, not to mention higher education, and media were infiltrated years ago. Since Welch's day, there have been others who have blown the whistle, so I'm not sure why it is such a shock to you. I mean, way back when, Whitaker Chambers blew the whistle on Alger Hiss. I remember well, after years of it being said a lie, how it was confirmed years later when the Soviets finally opened some of the records. I highly recommend his autobiography, "Witness", by the way.

Has the JBS been perfect? No. In fact, after Welch died, and then Larry MacDonald, there have been times that it was determined that the leadership was less than "true". As soon as it was discovered, they were weeded out. But, yes, they've been right. And because they were blowing the whistle on what was happening within our own country and had become quite influential, TPTB decided to take them out and they did.

All that said, I don't trust ANY organization or person 100%. I always believe in checking sources.

[LibertyEagle]

Ernie,

I'll read your paper when I get the time, but I have to tell you that it is more than just a little suspicious that you have been a member for 7 months and all 5 of your posts have been to discredit the JBS. It is especially suspicious because they are once again gaining influence and more and more people are listening to what they have to say.

[Conservative Christian]

Ron Paul has been a strong supporter of the John Birch Society for several decades, and spoke at the JBS 50th anniversary celebration last year.

Chuck Baldwin (Constitution Party), Larry Pratt (Gun Owners of America) and Aaron Zelman (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) also spoke at the event, and all warmly endorsed the John Birch Society.

Black conservative pastors Steven Craft and Jesse Peterson also offered unabashed endorsements of the JBS.

[Conservative Christian]

Ernie,

I'll read your paper when I get the time, but I have to tell you that it is more than just a little suspicious that you have been a member for 7 months and all 5 of your posts have been to discredit the JBS. It is especially suspicious because they are once again gaining influence and more and more people are listening to what they have to say.

Most likely an ADL/SPLC disinformation agent. About as credible as Josef Goebbels. :D

[LATruth]

Regarding the JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY


Consider this. The phony conservatives are like RAT POISON. 90% of the ingredients in RAT POISON are actually nutritious for the rat. It’s that small amount... just 10% of the ingredients that KILL THE RAT. They are the POISON, we are the RATS that have been caught in their traps and they are in fact, KILLING US.

It would be inappropriate here NOT to mention one of the first and very effective Phony Conservative organizations: The JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY. Founded in the ‘50's as "controlled opposition" to Communism and the United Nations, the JBS pulled in and rendered ineffective, thousands of Americans who were not asleep at the switch and who knew the dangers of the United Nations. From a book exposing the Society, titled "The John Birch Society – AN ENIGMA", the author, James E. Braddock – a former "Bircher" begins a paragraph with the heading: THE DESTRUCTION OF PATRIOTS A GOAL OF JBS. Braddock states in this paragraph:

"Keep always in mind, and it is quite clear, that the specific aim of the JBS and its controlling backers was and is the diversion and divestiture of the members from the truth and from their money. Bluntly put, get their minds on a subject that will be common to all and at the same time milk them of their money with the reasoning that their donations will help defeat communism! What better targets than the patriotic, freely giving, middle class."

http://www.sweetliberty.org/wolves2.htm

[Conservative Christian]

Furthermore, giants within the conservative and anti-communist communities explicitly stated that Welch and the JBS were circulating FALSEHOODS and, in the process, they discredited legitimate anti-communist efforts. [See, for example, statements made by Sen. Barry Goldwater, Sen. John Tower, Cong. Walter Judd, Russell Kirk, James Burnham, Eugene Lyons, J. Edgar Hoover -- and many others.]

James Burnham was a Trotskyite socialist who worked closely with CIA asset William F. Buckley at National Review, as did Russell Kirk. The CIA invested heavily in National Review from the get-go.

John Tower was a neocon warmonger and pseudoconservative.

Eugene Lyons was a communist fellow traveler and dedicated Stalinist, who helped cover up the Soviet induced famine in Ukraine, which killed millions of innocent people.

Then of course there was the heavy Mafia involvement in the construction of Phoenix's Sky Harbor International Airport many years ago, a project that Barry Goldwater played a central role in.

ernie1241's sources are about as credible as Josef Goebbels. :rolleyes:

[Conservative Christian]

Great article from Lew Rockwell's site on the Buckley/Burnham/Kirk anti-JBS crowd at National Review:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/cummings/cummings19.html

[tron paul]

The JBS pisses off all the usual enemies of America and Freedom.

That's good enough for me.

[FrankRep]

Ron Paul has been a strong supporter of the John Birch Society for several decades, and spoke at the JBS 50th anniversary celebration last year.

Chuck Baldwin (Constitution Party), Larry Pratt (Gun Owners of America) and Aaron Zelman (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership) also spoke at the event, and all warmly endorsed the John Birch Society.

Black conservative pastors Steven Craft and Jesse Peterson also offered unabashed endorsements of the JBS.

True. Ron Paul calls the John Birch Society a great patriot organization.


Ron Paul at John Birch Society 50th Anniversary
YouTube - Ron Paul at John Birch Society 50th Anniversary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqJIfqb9cTc)

[tron paul]

Great article from Lew Rockwell's site on the Buckley/Burnham/Kirk anti-JBS crowd at National Review:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/cummings/cummings19.html

That's an amazing article. Never seen the Octopus' tentacles diagrammed so cleanly.:cool:

[FrankRep]

Chuck Baldwin and Ron Paul Thanking the John Birch Society
YouTube - Baldwin and Paul Thanking the John Birch Society (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3oANGvYmDA)

[Conservative Christian]

A partial list of nationally respected conservative leaders who have endorsed the John Birch Society and spoken at official JBS events:

Dr. Ron Paul
Rev. Chuck Baldwin (Constitution Party)
Howard Phillips (Conservative Caucus)
Walter Williams
Ezola Foster
Aaron Zelman (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership)
Rev. Steven Craft
Rev. Jesse Peterson
Larry Pratt (Gun Owners of America)
Joseph Sobran

[FrankRep]

A partial list of nationally respected conservative leaders who have endorsed the John Birch Society and spoken at official JBS events:

Dr. Ron Paul
Rev. Chuck Baldwin (Constitution Party)
Howard Phillips (Conservative Caucus)
Walter Williams
Ezola Foster
Aaron Zelman (Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership)
Rev. Steven Craft
Rev. Jesse Peterson
Larry Pratt (Gun Owners of America)
Joseph Sobran

This is why the John Birch Society (http://www.jbs.org/) is attacked so viciously with lies by the media and the establishment. We aren't controlled by them.

[FrankRep]

John McManus at the Ron Paul's Rally for the Republic
- president of the John Birch Society

YouTube - John McManus at the Rally for the Republic (Part 1 of 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obgsT03oqS4)