Why this Christian supports Paul over Huckabee

[Benaiah]

Every election cycle, the Republican candidates try to come off as the most Christian, and the most conservative. We shouldn't vote for somebody because they say they are Christian or Conservative, or because they promise to do things that benefit Christians and Conservatives. Rather, we should vote for somebody who has already done things in the past that show he is Christian and Conservative. In other words, somebody who HAS walked the walk... not somebody who is talking the talk.


Mathew 7:15-20

[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[Molly1]

wow Thank you!

I agree.

I wish other Christians would understand this.

They are just being manipulated by the wolves.

Haven't they noticed what the candidates do after elected?

You'd think they would have woken up by now to this gig.

[Liberté]

This kind of talk makes me nervous... frankly it makes a lot of folks nervous. Theologies for the most part have proved to be tyrannical. Here is a good example of Religion/Government not mixing well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329605,00.html

[Fox McCloud]

Amen to that, Benaiah--I would have fallen for Huckabee 4-8 years ago...but not now....he talks the talk, but he sure doesn't walk the walk.

I too am grieved that many of my fellow Christians just don't get it....it's mind-boggling and heart-breaking at times.

[spudea]

This kind of talk makes me nervous... frankly it makes a lot of folks nervous. Theologies for the most part have proved to be tyrannical. Here is a good example of Religion/Government not mixing well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329605,00.html

I'm not disagreeing with you. But that story is from Fox News.... Do not accept it as truth.

[hopeforthefuture]

I have said it many times, I do not understand why Christians are not flocking to Dr. Paul. As a Christian, I am so disappointed with the vast majority of Christians as well as Christian leaders in their blind support of Huckabee. Chuck Baldwin is the only Christian leader I know of that knows what really going on. All pastors/Christian leaders that I have contacted regarding this election are supporting Huckabee- I just want to tell them that it's obvious they haven't done their homework. Otherwise, they'd see his record and RUN from him!

[Molly1]

This kind of talk makes me nervous... frankly it makes a lot of folks nervous. Theologies for the most part have proved to be tyrannical. Here is a good example of Religion/Government not mixing well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329605,00.html

I"m not sure what kind of talk is making you nervous.

Regarding your article: Do you really think a Ron Paul Republican would advocate a theocracy with religious police? Guess you don't know your candidate very well.

We are just like you in rejecting such a system.

We are simply witnessing that we love Christ and would like a leader that follows the principles of Christ, and that's not Mike Huckabee.

But it is Ron Paul.

[Liberté]

I"m not sure what kind of talk is making you nervous.

Regarding your article: Do you really think a Ron Paul Republican would advocate a theocracy with religious police? Guess you don't know your candidate very well.

We are just like you in rejecting such a system.

We are simply witnessing that we love Christ and would like a leader that follows the principles of Christ, and that's not Mike Huckabee.

But it is Ron Paul.

Oh, I don't worry about Ron Paul doing it... I just keep my eye on Christian Zealots... :)

[Molly1]

Oh, I don't worry about Ron Paul doing it... I just keep my eye on Christian Zealots... :)

haha well I don't know what a zealot looks like.

But, I do know what Christ looks like.

And I recognize him in Ron Paul.


Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus..

[zbus12]

This kind of talk makes me nervous... frankly it makes a lot of folks nervous. Theologies for the most part have proved to be tyrannical. Here is a good example of Religion/Government not mixing well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329605,00.html

Are you serious??? Uh, did you know that most of the founding fathers were Clergymen or a Very religious moral people?

However, Theocracy's are dangerous because of False teaching and blind faith.

[zbus12]

I have said it many times, I do not understand why Christians are not flocking to Dr. Paul. As a Christian, I am so disappointed with the vast majority of Christians as well as Christian leaders in their blind support of Huckabee. Chuck Baldwin is the only Christian leader I know of that knows what really going on. All pastors/Christian leaders that I have contacted regarding this election are supporting Huckabee- I just want to tell them that it's obvious they haven't done their homework. Otherwise, they'd see his record and RUN from him!

See the reformed faith. A LOT of Paul supporters, like baldwin, although i am not sure he is reformed or not, Howard Phillips is Reformed, Joe Moorecraft is Reformed Presbyterian, and I am also a reformed Presbyterian and a LONG TIME Ron Paul supporter, and so is most all of the people in my church. I also talked to Jeremiah Black, ya know the guy who makes the ads for Ron Paul, He also is a Reformed Presbyterian from NY and ALL of his church is for Ron Paul. SO there are believers out there who ARE NOT being deceived like the masses and understand the proper role of government as prescribed in the bible. Our Founders were also predominantly reformed believers as well, and based the 3 branches of government from the form of church government held by the presbyterian denomination. It is truly sad to see "believers" out there claiming to be Christian, but truly have NO CLUE how government should be run because they dont care about reading their bible. They would rather listen to "christian" Rock music and listen to the heretics like Joel Olsteen, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. That is NOT christianity and it gives the Christians as a whole, a BAD NAME! And we wonder why many still sit in unbelief and are easily persuaded by the media and false teachings of modern day ministers. It's not a very pretty sight, if you REALLY know whats going on.

[mynameisJason]

Is Huckabee a Christian? Who said that? How do you know?

lol... j/k. So maybe he is. Clinton, Bush, Carter, etc, etc, also claim to be. Claiming doesn't mean much to me. Ron Paul's actions are what sold me.

[Molly1]

See the reformed faith. A LOT of Paul supporters, like baldwin, although i am not sure he is reformed or not, Howard Phillips is Reformed, Joe Moorecraft is Reformed Presbyterian, and I am also a reformed Presbyterian and a LONG TIME Ron Paul supporter, and so is most all of the people in my church. I also talked to Jeremiah Black, ya know the guy who makes the ads for Ron Paul, He also is a Reformed Presbyterian from NY and ALL of his church is for Ron Paul. SO there are believers out there who ARE NOT being deceived like the masses and understand the proper role of government as prescribed in the bible. Our Founders were also predominantly reformed believers as well, and based the 3 branches of government from the form of church government held by the presbyterian denomination. It is truly sad to see "believers" out there claiming to be Christian, but truly have NO CLUE how government should be run because they dont care about reading their bible. They would rather listen to "christian" Rock music and listen to the heretics like Joel Olsteen, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. That is NOT christianity and it gives the Christians as a whole, a BAD NAME! And we wonder why many still sit in unbelief and are easily persuaded by the media and false teachings of modern day ministers. It's not a very pretty sight, if you REALLY know whats going on.

That's interesting. I didn't know that.

Then why don't these 'reformed' Christians speak out and challenge other Christians about supporting a man who makes the top ten most corrupt politicians list (Huck)?

[zbus12]

That's interesting. I didn't know that.

Then why don't these 'reformed' Christians speak out and challenge other Christians....

I do EVERYDAY! And it is SO SAD to see them filled with self pride to the point where they do not take wise council, not even from the bible they claim to believe in.

[zbus12]

This is how TRUE Christians decide who to vote for as our civil duty.


The conscientious Christian desires to glorify God and obey His Word in all that he thinks and does. This desire extends to his actions as a Christian citizen. Perhaps one of his more important actions as a citizen is that of voting for the men who will serve as magistrates over him. So as each election draws near he seeks to determine which candidate he should endorse with his vote. Throughout the process of deciding he receives much advice, such as: vote Republican; vote for the conservative; vote for the one who is pro-life; vote for the one who stands closest to you on the issues; vote for “x” even though he is less than desirable because if he doesn’t win, then we will have “y” who is even worse; and so on.

However helpful this kind of advice may be, the Christian who believes that the Word of God is able to instruct him in righteousness and equip for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16-17), including the work of voting, will necessarily turn to the Scripture for guidance. The Bible contains explicit instructions concerning the qualifications for civil officers, and to these the Christian ought to look as he determines who he will support with his time, money, and vote. There are two primary texts that set forth the standards for choosing civil magistrates: Exodus 18:21 and Deuteronomy 1:13.

Exodus 18:21
In Exodus 18, Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, advises Moses to appoint men to help him in governing and judging the nation, lest he wear out both himself and the people (18:17-19). An important aspect of Jethro’s counsel to Moses is in regard to the kind of men that he should appoint as rulers. The character of the men chosen must be according to the following standards:

“Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating coveteousness…” (Ex. 18:21).

Men who are able
Civil leaders must be men of strength. The strength that is required here is not primarily physical, but moral and spiritual. It refers to men of valor and of virtue; men of courage and of character. A man who is a coward will not fulfill his duty to uphold God’s law if doing so would be unpopular with the people. A man who is of an evil character cannot govern justly. Only those who have proven that they have the ability, courage, and integrity necessary to lead should be chosen as civil rulers.

Men who fear God
Magistrates should be men who honor and reverence God and His Word. This qualification indicates that only those who are believers, i.e., stand in covenant with God through faith, should be considered for the office of magistrate (cf. Deut. 17:15). If a people are to have wise and understanding leaders, they must choose those who fear God, for the “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Prov. 1:7). Men who do not fear God are, according to Scripture, “fools” who hate true wisdom.

Men committed to truth
Civil rulers need to be men who stand firmly and faithfully for the truth. Men of truth are men who do not lie, but speak the truth even to their own hurt. They love the truth and hate all that is false. It is absolutely essential that civil leaders be men who can be trusted to speak the truth. Liars and lovers of falsehood are a scourge to those they lead.

Men who hate covetousness
A man who is raised to the position of civil magistrate must be one who seeks no unjust gain from his position. He must “hate” (not simply dislike, but hate) the thought of using his office to enrich himself through violence, fraud, bribes, etc. A coveteous magistrate will try to use the power of his office to unjustly seize for himself the wealth of those he governs. A magistrate must also hate covetousness in others, and not allow any citizen to use the power of civil government to seize the wealth of his neighbor through unjust legislation or confiscatory taxation.

Deuteronomy 1:13
In Deuteronomy chapter one, Moses recounts the events that took place forty years earlier at Mount Sinai. One of these events was the appointment of rulers to serve with him in governing the nation in accord with the advice of Jethro (Ex. 18:13-26). In speaking of the appointment of rulers he does not mention Jethro, for Moses knew that God was using Jethro to direct him in that circumstance. The account of the appointing of rulers to assist Moses in judging the people given here provides further insight on the biblical standards for the choosing of rulers.

First, Moses indicates that although he did the appointing, it was the people who actually chose their own rulers. Moses charges the people to “take you wise men….” The word “take” means to provide or choose, while the word “you” means for yourselves. Therefore, Moses gives the people the responsibility of selecting their own leaders. Moses then appointed (installed into office) those chosen by the people.

Second, Moses provided the people with specific standards for determining which men were qualified for the office of civil judge and ruler. The citizens have the responsibility of choosing their own rulers, but they are not free to choose whomsoever they will. Rather, they are charged by Moses to choose only those who meet certain qualifications. Moses states:

“Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.” (Deut. 1:13).

These qualifications summarize those stated previously in Exodus 18:21 and provide additional commentary on the standards God has established for choosing rulers.

Men
The Hebrew word translated “men” in this text refers to males as opposed to females. The generic term for mankind, which would include women, is not used here, but rather, the gender specific word for men. If the choice of words means anything, then it is necessary to conclude that God intended that only men be chosen for the office of civil ruler. In Exodus 18:21 the same Hebrew word is used; in fact, in every other passage dealing with the civil magistrate, his duties, and his qualifications, men are in view (cf. Deut. 17:14-20; 2 Sam. 23:3; Neh. 7:2; Prov. 16:10; 20:8, 28; 29:14; 31:4-5; Rom. 13:1-6). The order of male headship established at creation applies to each of the three “governments” established by God: the family, the church, and the state.

Men who are wise
The Hebrew word for “wise” means to be skilful, prudent, intelligent, or able. It denotes both natural ability and wisdom attained through experience. But wisdom in the biblical sense is never just prudence and skill gained through experience. According to Scripture, wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord and proceeds to a knowledge of God and His precepts. True wisdom comes from God as a man searches for it in the Word of God as he would search for hidden treasure (Prov. 2:1-8). Such a man will come to “understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity, and every good path” (Prov. 2:9). Thus, a magistrate should be a man of ability and intelligence who is skilled in judgment because of his fear of the Lord and his knowledge of God’s Word.

Men who are understanding
To be “understanding” is to be discerning, to have the ability to make a proper judgment. It refers primarily to moral insight and ethical discernment. A man of “understanding” is able to discern the right course of action based on the moral law of God. In terms of civil law, a man of understanding knows what is just and is able to judge righteously in disputes or criminal cases because he understands God’s law.

Men who are known
These are men who have proven themselves to be wise and understanding. Their character, ability, and wisdom have been demonstrated by their service in other spheres. A man who would be a ruler must first prove himself in family life, business, community service, church service, etc.

Summary
The biblical standards for magistrates given in Exodus 18:21 and Deuteronomy 1:13 give citizens a sure guide for determining which men among them are truly fit to serve as their civil rulers. The qualifications given in these texts indicate three areas of concern:

Natural Ability
The demands of being a magistrate require men who are intelligent and have the skills necessary to lead others.

Personal Integrity
Magistrates must be men of the highest personal character. They must be men of truth and virtue. Their lives should be an example of righteous living. As those charged with enforcing God’s law in the civil sphere, they should keep all aspects of God’s moral law. They must be men who are there to serve God and man, and are not there to enrich or promote themselves.

Spiritual Maturity
Magistrates, as ministers of God, should be men of spiritual attainment (a knowledge and fear of God) and biblical wisdom. It is vital that a ruler knows that he is accountable to God and has a healthy fear of the day that he will give account to God. A ruler must also be knowledgeable of God’s law as it is revealed in Scripture so that he can carry out his duty of establishing justice in the gates (i.e., in the courts and legislatures of the land).

Other Relevant Scriptures
The standards for choosing magistrates as established in the law of God are carried out, amplified, and upheld throughout the rest of Scripture.

Deuteronomy 16:18-20
After Israel has taken possession of the land it will be their duty under God’s law to select judges and officers to carry out judgment in the gates. These rulers are charged to “judge the people with just judgment.” Hence, it follows that the people should choose “wise” and “understanding” men who will be able to do just that. It is right to assume that the standards Moses taught them in Deuteronomy 1:13 should be applied to the choosing of local magistrates since no new or different standards are given here.

Deuteronomy 17:14-20
This text addresses the circumstance of Israel seeking a king to rule over them. It further establishes the responsibility of the people to choose their rulers, in this case, their king. However, they are not at liberty to choose whomsoever they will, but only the man approved and chosen by God. Furthermore, the man they choose must be a “brother,” i.e., a man who stands in covenant with God through faith; he must not be an unbeliever, but one who fears God as stated in Exodus 18:17.

2 Samuel 23:3
In this text it is plainly stated that “He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.” Righteous men who govern according to God’s law as God’s ministers is always the biblical standard.

2 Chronicles 19:6-7
These verses contain the instructions of King Jehoshaphat for the judges that he appointed in the land, city by city:

Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the Lord, who is with you in judgment. Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you: take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

The charge given by the king reflects the standards for choosing magistrates given in the law of Moses. Only men who “fear God,” who are “able,” “wise,” “understanding,” and “hate covetousness” could possibly fulfill the duties spoken of by Jehoshaphat.

Nehemiah 7:2
After the walls had been rebuilt and the Levites appointed to serve in the Temple, Nehemiah continued to restore the integrity of Jerusalem by establishing Hanani and Hananiah as civil rulers in the city. Nehemiah specifically stated that he chose Hananiah because “he was a faithful man who feared God above many.” Nehemiah followed the standards of the law of God in appointing the leaders of Jerusalem. As a “faithful” man, Hananiah is firm in his stand for truth; he is a man who is known for his faithfulness to truth; thus, he meets the qualification “men of truth.” Hananiah is also a man who fears God “among many.” He has proven himself as a man of spiritual maturity who is qualified to lead others.

Proverbs 29:2
The biblical standards for choosing magistrates instruct citizens to select righteous men. This verse emphasizes the great importance of selecting righteous men by stating: “When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.” This proverb teaches that it is great folly to elevate wicked men to civil leadership, but great wisdom to follow God’s law and elect only men who fear God and obey His Word.

Romans 13:1-6
The nature and purpose of the magistrate’s role is defined by Paul in this classic text on civil government. Paul explains that the authority of the civil ruler comes from God, and that the ruler serves as God’s minister to exercise God’s vengeance against evildoers. This description of the nature and purpose of the office of civil ruler applies to all rulers in all nations at all times; no exceptions are given by Paul. Thus, the same role that was assigned to magistrates in the Old Testament is assigned to magistrates in the New Testament (cf. Deut. 1:16-17; 16:18-20; 2 Chron. 19:6-7; Prov. 16:10, 12; 31:8-9). If the role is the same, then it must be that the qualifications are the same.

Application
The biblical standards for choosing civil magistrates needs to be applied today in the following manner:

The only men who are truly qualified for civil office are those who meet the standards set down in the Word of God. God is sovereign over civil government, and the sole prerogative to establish what kind of men can and ought to serve as magistrates belongs to Him. Men who do not meet the biblical standards are not fully fit to serve as rulers.

These standards instruct citizens who have the liberty of choosing their civil magistrates on how to carry out their duty in accord with the will of God. It is God’s revealed will that His ministers in the civil sphere be men who fear Him. God’s blessings are on the people who choose men of ability, character, and spiritual maturity.

Christians should support with their time, money, and vote those men who meet the biblical qualifications. In all that he does the Christian is to seek to glorify God and promote the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. When the Christian gives his full support to men who meet the biblical standards for civil magistrates, he is doing these very things. If we are to have righteous civil government, then we must have righteous men as rulers. If we are to have a civil government that honors Christ, then we must have men who honor Jesus Christ as civil leaders.

Voting for a biblically qualified candidate who appears to have no chance of winning is not the waste of a vote, it is obedience to God. Obedience to God is never a waste of time or effort, but the compromise of biblical truth always is. Compromise sacrifices victory in the long run for the sake of immediate “success” or “peace,” while godly obedience sacrifices immediate gratification for the sake of ultimate victory. Christians often complain that there are no godly men to vote for, but when one does appear, they don’t vote for him anyway because, they reason, “he can’t win.” Can we expect the Lord to give us qualified men as candidates for civil office if Christians are not committed in principle to supporting them in obedience to biblical law?

The church must labor to raise up men who will meet the biblical standards for magistrates. Where will men come from who are qualified for civil office if not from the covenant people? If there are no men qualified for a particular office, it is because the church has failed; it is not because the biblical standards are unworkable in the present context. The goal of the church should be to have a biblically qualified man running for every civil office in the land. We are a long way from reaching this goal. But the church must begin by equipping men to serve as magistrates and challenging them to glorify God as His minister in the civil sphere. Race by race, office by office, the church needs to take dominion over politics by raising up biblically qualified men.

The biblical standards for choosing magistrates apply even in non-covenanted nations. This would seem evident when Christians have a biblically qualified candidate to vote for, i.e., God’s law commands them to vote for the man who meets the biblical standards even though they are in a nation not formally in covenant with God. But how does the biblical teaching on choosing magistrates apply in instances where there are no candidates who meet the biblical standards? This is debated among Christians. Some advocate strict compliance with the biblical standards at all times and all places. Others argue that strict compliance is only fully possible in a covenant nation (which is the goal); in the meantime, we should use our vote to support men of ability and integrity who are generally in agreement with biblical standards of law and justice.

In a true Christian nation, the biblical standards for choosing magistrates will be part of constitutional law. A nation that is in covenant with God through Christ will express this by means of a national confession of submission to God and His law, and by a religious test for office that is based on the biblical qualifications for civil rulers.

The biblical standards for choosing civil magistrates also provides a benchmark for men already in office and for men seeking the office. Every Christian in political office should evaluate himself in light of these standards; this is the kind of man he is to be. For those Christian men who are contemplating political office here are the standards that they should aspire to.

[Aratus]

Aratus thinks Isaac Newton invented Intelligent Design! Does Ron Paul have a specific
stance on this or is he more into letting each state and community debate things? Let's
Get specific! Isn't Huckabee a Creationist? Almost to his being like Bishop Ussher or
even a tad William *Jennings*Bryan~esque about his shirtsleeves + bootstraps that
are apres Scopes? If science THINKs the age of this earth is in billions, if not our universe
cycle, how do we classify Intelligent Design's implied trillions or a Creationist set of aeons
or millenniums? is it either like STRING THEORY's natural philosophy or is it almost Religion Proper
with its LONG DAYS where a biblical day is thought to be equal to a thousand human/earth years!
~~~ the wise sanity to this again, is that i think our good doctor is wise when he desires not
to do a rewrite to our textbooks! i admire him for this, BECAUSE it allows a political flexibility!

[Cal Mabus]

Aratus thinks Isaac Newton invented Intelligent Design! Does Ron Paul have a specific
stance on this or is he more into letting each state and community debate things? Let's
Get specific! Isn't Huckabee a Creationist? Almost to his being like Bishop Ussher or
even a tad William *Jennings*Bryan~esque about his shirtsleeves + bootstraps that
are apres Scopes? If science THINKs the age of this earth is in billions, if not our universe
cycle, how do we classify Intelligent Design's implied trillions or a Creationist set of aeons
or millenniums? is it either like STRING THEORY's natural philosophy or is it almost Religion Proper
with its LONG DAYS where a biblical day is thought to be equal to a thousand human/earth years!
~~~ the wise sanity to this again, is that i think our good doctor is wise when he desires not
to do a rewrite to our textbooks! i admire him for this, BECAUSE it allows a political flexibility!

Not quite sure where you are trying to go with your whole statement here, but you quote...
with its LONG DAYS where a biblical day is thought to be equal to a thousand human/earth years!
If you are interpreting that particular verse for proof that God is confused or unable to give a correct interpretation of how long a biblical day is in order to support an evolution argument, you would do as so many do as in the modern day church, being unschooled in proper biblical interpretation. No man is able to do so. But God is able to do so and He does so in His own words so as not to be deveived. Please review the entire context.

2 Peter 3:7-9 (New King James Version)

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So the correct understanding here is that God is patient with sinners in that he has not cast them all into hell yet, but there comes a day when the unrepentant shall perish and that time is of no importance to Him as he already inhabits all past, present and future, in other words all eternity.

This text has nothing to do with the days of creation or length of time in creation.

However, here are the verses that prove why Dr. Paul does not have to re-write the history books, it is already written.

Genesis 1:20-30 (New King James Version) 20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Evening and morning are the key words here. If evolution means that the days were untold periods of time, then time is getting shorter, thus, I don't know how old you are, but for centuries time has not changed. Wouldn't you think you would be hearing of how time in an actual day now is like 23 hours 59 minutes and 59 deconds by now and not really 24 hours? If time has evolved over time then the days should be getting shorter not remaining the same.

Exodus 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, Can you imagine the days of Moses man working for thousands of 24 hour periods to equal one day?

These are just a couple of scripture proofs to debunk the mis-interpretation of the great philosophers or theorists.

PS. Huckabee stating he is a creationist alone does not make him a God fearing leader for a country. Plus, if Huckabee was a creationist, then he could and would uphold the biblical account of scripture teaching as a day as a 24 hour period, which he will not nor can not because He does not know the God of scripture. If He did He would proclaim the true biblical position with boldness, yet he skirts the question as not to pretend to know the mind and work of God, be it 24 hours or over time expanse. Now why would he say this? Because he just does not know, yet it is revealed very plainly in scripture, thus He is not known by God, unless the Lord by His spirit reveals the truth to him through scripture alone and not leave Huckabee to his own opinion on this matter.

But then the scripture also teaches 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So I doubt you can or will except these truths, unless you have been born again of the Spirit. John 3:6-8 (New King James Version) 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

[Cal Mabus]

Great Study Zbus. Always good to restudy the truth of scripture.

[Benaiah]

Aratus thinks Isaac Newton invented Intelligent Design! Does Ron Paul have a specific
stance on this or is he more into letting each state and community debate things? Let's
Get specific!

I believe that he is into letting each state and/or local community decide these things. In my opinion, if you want the best schools, that is the best approach to take. Lets pretend that district A teaches Creation and Bible stuff, district B keeps the current status quo, and district B teaches both (presents all sides and arguments).

Now if I'm a community who is about to open a school in school district D, and I see from stats that 95% of kids from A go on to graduate and becomes doctors, engineers, and teachers, but only 50% of kids from B and C go on to graduate and they all end up with crappy jobs and economies... then I'd probably want to go with district A's teaching style and curriculum. I think that allowing more competition in schools will actually end up providing better quality education for the long run.

Aside from that, it's not my right to tell some podunct town in Utah with a population of 500 who are 100% Mormon, that they can't add Mormon principles and teaching to their curriculum. Besides, if we did away with the department of education, had no income tax, and we were all making more money.. TONS and TONS of private schools would pop up all over the place. Kids used to be taught in churches! That doesn't mean that we have to go back to religious teaching, my point is simply that we don't need to government to run our schools. There are other ways we could do it.

[MrZach]

Check out these websites too:

http://fyi08.blogspot.com/ - great site discrediting Gov. Huckabee

http://www.knowbeforeyouvote.com/huckabee/ - compares Dr. Paul w/ Gov. Huckabee on 5 key issues...

[zbus12]

That article that I posted can be found here (http://www.visionforumministries.org/issues/ballot_box/biblical_standards_for_choosin.aspx)

[Aratus]

thanks for the analytical reply! the thousand year figure is a metaphoric
statement about time passing. a celestial day can seem like a thousand
years, and a thousand years can seem like a terran day. i can see where
a creationist has the temptation to do what bishop ussher did. tally up
in a biblical manner logically the begats, and then add the previous and
prior six days into the seventh. 4004 B.C plus 6 or 7 thousand years gives
one a ten thousand year timeframe. this is a leaping to conclusions!

[Aratus]

12 or 13 thousand years is not science's
12 or 13 billion years in terms of our textbooks!

[Aratus]

i prefer the idea that our universe is closer to being a steady state and that if there is
a wise creator being, we could be of a universe that is easily several trillion years of age.

[Working Poor]

I am proud to say the the cars in the parking lot of my church are bearing Ron Paul bumper stickers.

[Benaiah]

Not quite sure where you are trying to go with your whole statement here, but you quote...
with its LONG DAYS where a biblical day is thought to be equal to a thousand human/earth years!
If you are interpreting that particular verse for proof that God is confused or unable to give a correct interpretation of how long a biblical day is in order to support an evolution argument, you would do as so many do as in the modern day church, being unschooled in proper biblical interpretation. No man is able to do so. But God is able to do so and He does so in His own words so as not to be deveived. Please review the entire context.

2 Peter 3:7-9 (New King James Version)

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So the correct understanding here is that God is patient with sinners in that he has not cast them all into hell yet, but there comes a day when the unrepentant shall perish and that time is of no importance to Him as he already inhabits all past, present and future, in other words all eternity.

This text has nothing to do with the days of creation or length of time in creation.

However, here are the verses that prove why Dr. Paul does not have to re-write the history books, it is already written.

Genesis 1:20-30 (New King James Version) 20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Evening and morning are the key words here. If evolution means that the days were untold periods of time, then time is getting shorter, thus, I don't know how old you are, but for centuries time has not changed. Wouldn't you think you would be hearing of how time in an actual day now is like 23 hours 59 minutes and 59 deconds by now and not really 24 hours? If time has evolved over time then the days should be getting shorter not remaining the same.

Exodus 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, Can you imagine the days of Moses man working for thousands of 24 hour periods to equal one day?

These are just a couple of scripture proofs to debunk the mis-interpretation of the great philosophers or theorists.

PS. Huckabee stating he is a creationist alone does not make him a God fearing leader for a country. Plus, if Huckabee was a creationist, then he could and would uphold the biblical account of scripture teaching as a day as a 24 hour period, which he will not nor can not because He does not know the God of scripture. If He did He would proclaim the true biblical position with boldness, yet he skirts the question as not to pretend to know the mind and work of God, be it 24 hours or over time expanse. Now why would he say this? Because he just does not know, yet it is revealed very plainly in scripture, thus He is not known by God, unless the Lord by His spirit reveals the truth to him through scripture alone and not leave Huckabee to his own opinion on this matter.

But then the scripture also teaches 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So I doubt you can or will except these truths, unless you have been born again of the Spirit. John 3:6-8 (New King James Version) 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Here is my take on that passage.

[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Read the versus immediately proceeding the ones you posted... they have to do with creation. I'm a biology nut, and for scientific reasons I believe that the Earth is only 6-10 thousand years old. However, the more I go along, the more I realize I don't know anything.

The biggest thing that I get out of this passage, is: "by the word of God the heavens were of old." this is telling me that God created the heavens (Earth, Moon, Sun, stars, basically everything in the first 2 chapters of Genesis) as OLD. In other words, when God created Adam, Adam wasn't 1 second old or 1 minute old. Adam was probably a full grow man. So even though Adam was only in existence for 30 seconds, he was 40-years-old, not 30 seconds old. The 70ft tree he created in Genesis chapter 1 wasn't 30 seconds old, either. It was hundreds of years old. Yes, it only took up space in existence for 30 seconds, but it was created as a 200-year-old tree.

Same thing with our universe. I don't doubt that the Sun could be "millions of years old." However, I believe that it's only been in existence for 6-10 thousand years. When Adam was walking around during his 3rd day of existence, there weren't a bunch of 3-day-old puppies, kittens, baby deer, and baby elephants running around. No, there were animals all over the place that had only existed for 3 days, but were fully grown adults that resembled 10, 20, and 30-year-old animals. Just like the Bible says, he created the heavens of old.

[Croomsspot08]

Hi I'm Nathan and I'm new to this forum. I have found this thread very interesting. I too am a Christian who supports Ron Paul. I have followed Dr. Paul for quite a few years now and every time I here the man speak I learn something new. You can't say that about many in Washington DC. I think it's worth noting that his faith is what Dr. Paul talks little about. Yet he has the principled integrity of a strong leader. He has produced one the strongest pro-life amendments in recent years with his Human Life Amendment. Even though he speaks relatively little about his Christian faith in public I think all here would agree that he has a record to prove he is a man of principle.
Keep up the good work!
Nathan

[The Proservative]

I'm proud of Ron Paul for NEVER using his faith to sell his candidacy. Jesus was furious at religious hypocrites selling wares in the temple area, and so should Christians when Huckabee try to use his religion to sell himself.

I have, at times during the presidential debates, wanted Ron Paul to talk more about his religion, his total commitment to his wife for 51+ years, but I'm glad he never does. It takes more strength, and more religious conviction to NOT use religion as a selling point. Yes, he would receive 10 times more votes from Christians if Ron Paul talked about his faith more, but the fact that he does not, doesn't "sell in the temple", shows a true Christian man...

Jesus is proud of you Ron Paul!

[Croomsspot08]

Anthony,
This is something I have not thought of. I think I agree with your points. It's not a man's words it's his actions which matter when voting for a President, a Congressman, a Senator, or any other public servant. As I said last night in my post, people should look at the fact that Ron Paul has produced one of the strongest pro-life amendments in recent years in his Sanctity of Life Amendment.
Nathan G.

[The Proservative]

Definitely, as I'm (Proservative) in full support of the Sanctity of Life Amendment. However, the key in successful pro-life, equal right to every citizen INCLUDING THE UNBORN, is local legislation, execution, and judges that will start trying abortion cases for what they are...murder. Technically, murder cases are trying by a jury, and thus not necessarily subject to all of these bills being passed. Kicking this back to the state/local level, we need to start trying abortion cases as murder, racking up convictions, restoring the freedoms to ALL Americans.

On a side note regarding pro Christian/Catholic candidates, if Huckabee were truly running as the "Christian champion", if he is pro-life for the argument of saving lives, should he also not be AGAINST capital punishment, which, according to the Bible, is murder and thus breaking the Commandments?

In 1997, Huckabee claimed that Jesus would have agreed with him on supporting the death penalty. This is technically blasphemy for all those Bible technicality people out there. Jesus would never support murder IN ANY FORM. And having someone, anyone sentenced to death is pre-meditated, and thus murder.

In many versions of the Bible, the commandment "Thou shall not kill" is translated to "Thou shall not MURDER", leaving open the possibility of having to kill someone in self defense. Murder, on the other hand, is considered in the Bible ALWAYS a sin, including capital, pre-meditated, execution.

[Working Poor]

Ron Paul is a Presbyterian. I am also a Presbyterian. I can speak for most Presbyterians in that we have never been a group that tries to proselytize. We believe our actions are what inspires people to become Christians.

Presbyterians believe that God speaks to the individual as well as the group. Presbyterians are a conservative group and I believe they have very powerful voting clout. A large percentage of Presbyterians are conservative Republicans. To me Dr. Paul shows his moral and Christian values in all of his affairs. We as Christians need to be able to see who lives the life and judge righteous judgment.

War goes against what I believe in. I believe my faith tells me this war is wrong and that the only honorable thing to do is to get out of it as soon as possible so we can stop killing the Iraq babies and citizens.

[Working Poor]

I am bumping for any Christians looking in

[Cal Mabus]

Here is my take on that passage.

[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Read the versus immediately proceeding the ones you posted... they have to do with creation. I'm a biology nut, and for scientific reasons I believe that the Earth is only 6-10 thousand years old. However, the more I go along, the more I realize I don't know anything.

The biggest thing that I get out of this passage, is: "by the word of God the heavens were of old." this is telling me that God created the heavens (Earth, Moon, Sun, stars, basically everything in the first 2 chapters of Genesis) as OLD. In other words, when God created Adam, Adam wasn't 1 second old or 1 minute old. Adam was probably a full grow man. So even though Adam was only in existence for 30 seconds, he was 40-years-old, not 30 seconds old. The 70ft tree he created in Genesis chapter 1 wasn't 30 seconds old, either. It was hundreds of years old. Yes, it only took up space in existence for 30 seconds, but it was created as a 200-year-old tree.

Same thing with our universe. I don't doubt that the Sun could be "millions of years old." However, I believe that it's only been in existence for 6-10 thousand years. When Adam was walking around during his 3rd day of existence, there weren't a bunch of 3-day-old puppies, kittens, baby deer, and baby elephants running around. No, there were animals all over the place that had only existed for 3 days, but were fully grown adults that resembled 10, 20, and 30-year-old animals. Just like the Bible says, he created the heavens of old.

Benaiah, I would agree with the statement, the more I go along looking into the deeper things of God, I too realize I know nothing as I ought. I can also see your point of all things created were of the age they were created to be at that time as you illustrated. If you have any study links on your take here, please post it or PM me with it.

However might I make a couple of observations you may want to consider as well, considering the verses you included.

Verse 4, "all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation" This is only a mention of things continuing from the days of creation, not speaking of the creation itself.

Verse 5, "that by the word of God the heavens were of old" At Geneses 1 you will see the Sun was the first light, "let there be light". Also stating the separation of the light from the darkness as representing day and night. Then the earth was formed out of the chaos of the deep . Then the lights or stars and planets were created. The heavens were basically separated from the new creation by firmament on the 2nd day. This states the heavens were of old, but we know the earth only stood in and out of the water at the flood.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

Verse 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: Here is talking about the flood, not the beginning of creation, but a period some 2000 years after creation. Here we have a progression to the present heavens and earth, as they are now, showing that all things continue as from the creation.

Since God exists in all eternity past present and future, in past eternity before creation, you can certainly say all things existed in the mind of God in His eternal plan, thus all things were established/created exactly as he envisioned them to exist from the 1st day of creation till the end of the world as we know it, even all those whom will be saved and those whom will perish has been determined from the foundation of the world (Eph1), So much for mans free will. After all He did have all eternity to establish His perfect plan from beginning to end as revealed to us in these verses.

Hebrews 3:4 (New King James Version)
4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

Luke 14:27-29 (New King James Version)
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, (And we know God will not be mocked and made sure all He has determined will come to pass, lest He be not much of a God)

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

[Captain Shays]

Some of the reasons why I support Ron Paul is that I believe the prophesies that are written in the bible and I really believe that we may be living in the end times. OK, maybe and maybe not BUT we do have a responsibility to do the right thing whether Jesus will return next week or a thousand years from now. That said, the bible tells us that in the last days a one world government will form along with a global cashless financial system. So today we have before us the United Nations and the World Bank. I looked into the origins of the UN and found that it was deliberatly set up specifically to some day become a one world government and that the World Bank was set up to become the central bank of the entire world.

One day I realized that even though these things must take place and they are mentioned in my bible, they are not God's plan. Yes, He will make all things work out in the end but no way would HE want sinful mankind to run this world. How do I know? He destroyed the Tower of Babal. How else do I know? Because when Jesus comes back He too destroyes the one world government.
I also understand that the antichrist who emerges to rule over the entire world through this one world government will embark upon a massive persecution of Saints, hence the end times Saints. The mayrters who are before the throne in great numbers. The persecution will be like none in all of human history.
Yes it will happen but I can't believe that God would want His children to be slaughtered like that. He blesses us when it happens. We're honored and rewarded but its still the result of a fallen world and not as He intended it to be.

There are other prophecies surrounding the end times. Since lawlessness will increase, most people's love will grow cold. We shouldn't support that any more than we do the one world government.

The emergence of the one world government is Satan's plan for the world, not God's. It is his false christ who will run the world, not our Christ.

If we are to be salt and light, then we MUST oppose evil, including the one world government. ONLY Ron Paul has authored Bills to get us out fo the UN and World Bank, the IMF and WTO. (IMF is to the rest of the world what the Fed is here and the WTO is their lending arm).

If anyone should respect the rule of law, it should be Christians. There isn't a single person running for president who really respects our Constitution the way Ron Paul does. The bible says, let your yes be yes and your no be no. So when you take an oath to uphold the Constitution as a Christian, you better uphold it and Ron Paul has. Huckabee hasn't. Not even close.

One fo the major hangups a lot of Christians have relative to supporting Ron Paul is his position on Israel. Many modern Christians think by subsidizing Israel or promising to go to war on their behalf reminds tham of the verse in Jerimiah where it says, those who curse you will be cursed and those who bless you will be blessed. They equate that with going to war and killing people in Iraq qho have never attacked us or threatened us and without a declaration of war.

These people loathe Ron Paul because he says that he would cut off subsidies to Israel. For some weird reason they don't hear the second part. That he will also cut off aid to Israel's enemies to the tune of three times the amount we give to Israel.

I have discussed these things with many Christians who think that if the USA didn't support Israel they would be obliterated by their enemies.
Do you know what I tell them? That NOWHERE in the bible does it EVER mention that Israel will be destroyed after their restoration.
That Muslims think some earthly nation can destroy Israel too. That God is her protector and not the USA. That even when ALL countries come up against Israel in the last war that Israel will wipe the floor with them. God doesn't need the USA to protect the apple of His eye.

Then, there is Ron Paul's position on drugs. That's a whoe educational process that I usually wind up convincing many of them because I KNOW the issue very well and make a very good argument.

But just to hint on it for now. God made Marijuana and ALL the plants that most drugs are derrived from. There was only one plant in the Garden that God said we couldn't touch or eat from its fruit and it wasn't marijuana or magic mushrooms or cocoa or poppy. God made those things and being ALL knowing, ALL seeing, ALL wise HE KNEW the effects those plants would have on humans if we ingested them and HE made our bodies so that they would be effected by those plants and guess what? He made them anyway.
But God doesn't want us to be "dissipated" right? Well He also gave us free will and a conscience and the Holy Spirit living in us to inform us about right and wrong. The government is not supposed to take the palce of our own conscience by passing laws that limit our free will and become authoritarian over our conscience or the Spirit. God said in Genesis that He made all the plants and that they were good and for our use. When man passes laws that forbid us to touch or use those plants what they are saying is that God made a mistake and they know better. I reject that. Laws are supposed to protect us from the harm that someone else does to us, not harm that we might do to ourselves. Crimes are harm that one does to another or his property. Vices are harm that one does to himself or his own property. Will the govenrment think it can protect us from alll stupid choices or throw us in jail when we're stupid?

War. Ron Paul is a strong adherent to the Christian Just War Principles. Huckabee said he wouldn't take a preemptive NUCLEAR strike of the table with regard to Iran. Jesus wouldn't want the USA to nuke a country with 80 million people in it even if we only killed as many as were killed on 911 and not all 80 million. But if we did nuke them I'm sure more than 3,000 people would get killed.

Would Jesus be a war hawk if He was here? Would HE want us to go into somebody else's country and killl people half way around the world? No, and in fact, I think He would consider it murder if we did that and when we approcah the Throne we won't be able to say that our government told me to kill them and expect to be justified.

Christians need to wake up big time and its up to us to wake them up.

I hope you will join us over at Christians for Ron Paul
and join me at Prophecy News Watch in the general discussion (along with others of course)

Prophecy News Watch
http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/message/index.php

Christians For Ron Paul
http://www.christiansforronpaul.com/


I would also like to organize the lergest contingent possible of Christians for Ron Paul all to be together to make it look like there are lots of us at the rally.

[ErikBlack]

One day I realized that even though these things must take place and they are mentioned in my bible, they are not God's plan. Yes, He will make all things work out in the end but no way would HE want sinful mankind to run this world. How do I know? He destroyed the Tower of Babal. How else do I know? Because when Jesus comes back He too destroyes the one world government.
I also understand that the antichrist who emerges to rule over the entire world through this one world government will embark upon a massive persecution of Saints, hence the end times Saints. The mayrters who are before the throne in great numbers. The persecution will be like none in all of human history.
Yes it will happen but I can't believe that God would want His children to be slaughtered like that. He blesses us when it happens. We're honored and rewarded but its still the result of a fallen world and not as He intended it to be.


So let me get this straight. Before Jesus comes back to get all of his children and bring them back with him to heaven where they will live an eternity of bliss beside their creator some really bad stuff is gonna go down here on Earth, and your position is that Christians here on Earth should do everything in their power to prevent it from happening?

[Macon, GA]

zbus.....

I saw your post. I just thought that I would add I am a Reformed Presbyterian too. Our church parking lot looks like a Ron Paul rally..... Many of us from our church became delegates this past Saturday.

As a side note, my husband is the pastor of an RPCUS church. You mentioned Joe Morecraft, so I thought that I would throw that in....

[Captain Shays]

So let me get this straight. Before Jesus comes back to get all of his children and bring them back with him to heaven where they will live an eternity of bliss beside their creator some really bad stuff is gonna go down here on Earth, and your position is that Christians here on Earth should do everything in their power to prevent it from happening?

We should do everything we can to oppose it because its evil. Christians should always oppose evil and we do whether we actively oppose it or passively oppose it simply by virtue of our pressense here or more specifically the pressense of the Spirit within us.

What I am saying is that the prophecy of the formation of a one world government and global cashless financial system may be a prophecy and may be written in the bible, and God may bring about wonderful things at the end of all the conflicts and horrors that are to come but He doesn't bring about the evil to come. He allows it and then responds to it. "There will be wars and rumors of wars". A prophecy but not brought on by God. "Lawlessness will increase". A prophecy but not brought on by God. Just like we are to resist lawlessness and continue to do right, we are not to ake part in the formation of a one world government. In this case, by voting for members of the CFR or supporting Bills that support the plans of the CFR/globalists. I should also ad that no Christian should support any war unless its in self defense even thought he prophecy says that there will be wars and rumors of wars.

[eloquensanity]

I agree and I believe that Christians who know the truth and still participate in helping along the one world government will be judged more harshly than people who don't have a clue whats going on.

[Macon, GA]

Dispensationalism..... has done a lot to destroy the church. It is a relatively new doctrine and would have been virtually unrecognized by the early church fathers. It has caused uninformed Christians to carry on an unbiblical love affair with Israel, that has even creeped into government at times and influenced foreign policy. (No, I am not a hater of Jewish people, but I do not believe that they are any more special than any other nationality.) God will save the elect Jews that he foreknew before the beginning of time. Anybody who tells you otherwise has bought the lie of Dispensationalism. There is no Scripture that teaches anyone will go to heaven, other than those who have bowed a knee to King Jesus. Sorry, no special allowances for the Jewish people.

Dispensationalism has allowed Christians to sit back in their prayer closet, strumming on their guitars while awaiting the "rapture." After all, why would we want to dirty our hands in politics....it is like polishing brass on a sinking ship, and our citizenship is in heaven???? Remember the Lord's Prayer:

"Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done, on EARTH, as it is in heaven."

This may be one reason you see more Reformed people supporting Ron Paul. Our understanding of Eschatology (among other things) is different.

[Captain Shays]

Dispensationalism..... has done a lot to destroy the church. It is a relatively new doctrine and would have been virtually unrecognized by the early church fathers. It has caused uninformed Christians to carry on an unbiblical love affair with Israel, that has even creeped into government at times and influenced foreign policy. (No, I am not a hater of Jewish people, but I do not believe that they are any more special than any other nationality.) God will save the elect Jews that he foreknew before the beginning of time. Anybody who tells you otherwise has bought the lie of Dispensationalism. There is no Scripture that teaches anyone will go to heaven, other than those who have bowed a knee to King Jesus. Sorry, no special allowances for the Jewish people.

Dispensationalism has allowed Christians to sit back in their prayer closet, strumming on their guitars while awaiting the "rapture." After all, why would we want to dirty our hands in politics....it is like polishing brass on a sinking ship, and our citizenship is in heaven???? Remember the Lord's Prayer:

"Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done, on EARTH, as it is in heaven."

This may be one reason you see more Reformed people supporting Ron Paul. Our understanding of Eschatology (among other things) is different.

I don't know anything about the Reformed Church but what you're written so far. So far, I agree with what you've written. I may look more deeply into it to increase my understanding.

I converted from Roman Catholicism to Independent Baptist when I was 16 and ti was the first time I ever read a bible. In the beginning I was taught all about the rapture, the tribulation, how to be saved ect. Of course, I was told that the rapture would come before the tribulation but it never made sense to me. They told me it was because God doesn't take His wrath out on His children. But when I read the bible, it was pretty clear that the persecution during the tribulation was directed toward Christians from the anti-christ and his enablers through government;the one world government. THEN Jesus comes back and wages war against the antichrist with the Saints with Him. THEN God opens the seals and pours His wrath out on thw fallen world, all who rejected Jesus and followed the antichrist and recieved the Mark of the Beast. It became more and more clear to me by reading my bible that there were a lot more verses telling us that we'll be persecuted than there were those telling us that we would be raptured first. No, its not God taking His wrath out on His children. Its Satan taking his wrath out on God's children and THEN God wipes out the world and creates a new one.

But then I started to get this tugging in ym heart telling me that the prophecies were given to us, not so that we can say, "see, I told you so" or just to prepares us spititually, but so that we can prepare physically. If we refuse to recieve the Mark, then we won't be able to buy or sell anything including food. So how will the Saints feed themselves? It won't be manna from Heaven and there are no verses to back that up. It will most likely be those Christians who believed the bible and the prophecies and PREPARED to feed those end times Saints.

We need to start preparing now because those days are nearly upon us if not now, then soon.

[Macon, GA]

Howdy Captain Shays,

I was a Baptist at one time too and held to Dispensationalism. It is all that I ever heard from the pulpit. My husband and I started doing some digging in to the Reformed faith after hearing about it. Finally, the Bible actually made sense from cover to cover...no more trying to explain away all the "this generation shall not pass away before these things come to pass" verses.

If you are interested, you can find some great articles on eschatology at:

www.americanvision.org.

Also, do a search on Covenantal Theology. When I began to understand this, the Bible became so much clearer to me.

[allyinoh]

This kind of talk makes me nervous... frankly it makes a lot of folks nervous. Theologies for the most part have proved to be tyrannical. Here is a good example of Religion/Government not mixing well.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,329605,00.html

What kind of talk?

He's just saying the reasons why he's supporting Paul over Huckabee as a Christian, since Huckabee has been portrayed as the "Christian leader."

I am not a big person on religion, I believe in God of the Bible and try to live my life according to that, but I do get a little irritated when someone of faith posts a thread regarding his support for Ron Paul and people who are not of faith come into the thread and post stuff that is anti-Christianity. I mean, you have your right, but hey, if you can't positively add to the thread, why post in a religious-type thread?

[basevolgal]

I agree with the OP. You know good Christians not because of what they SAY (Huckabee), but what they DO (Paul)

:D

[Christianalwaysg124RP]

I am a Christian and Ron Paul's message is a very principled message. His' message of disobeying authority when it goes against our liberty and his high respect for the rule of law, the constitution.

What's important is not whether he is a Christian because the constitution says this.......

" but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."-Article 1 Section 6.


Rather, what is important is whether he is a genuine Christian or not. Whether he truly shows Godly fruit. Many know from years of the oppressive "Christian right leaders," that they will use whatever it means to get the vote of bible believing Christians.

Matthew 7

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.




One issue I angry with much of the Christian right is about this ordeal of bringing theological matters into government. This is simply authoritarian. There are many things that the Christian right doesn't advocate in government that is not taught in the bible as a whole.

Another issue I am angry with much of the Christian right on is using the law in terms of civil government today. Yes, all scripture is under inspiration of God, but we must remember that the civil law was given to Israel before the time of the new covenant. That is not to say we aren't to apply these passages, but it is to say that they are done away with as Paul taught in Galatians 3.

Plus, we can't pick and choose which laws to fallow. James 2:10 says if you are guilty in the use of one of the laws, you are guilty of them off. Besides, I highly doubt Christians would fallow the Law when it says children who are disobedient to their parents and homosexuals should be stoned as the law says.



I am glad Ron Paul is under the more libertarian, traditional conservative wing of the Republican establishment. Fallowing the non interventionist policies of senator Robert Taft. Fallowing in personal and economic freedom principles of Barry Goldwater. As well as fallowing the ideal of Ronald Reagan that the federal government needs to be limited in power and fallowing the ideas of Reagan's diplomatic efforts in the Cold War. Most importantly, he is one of the view few strict constitionalists and "original intent" costitutionalists around.

Christians, let us not forget in Paul's missionary journey in Acts 16, that non believers tried to use the apostle Paul for their own dealings.
Acts 16

16Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

Ron Paul said this in one of his personal writings on his site.
(these are taken on snippets of Ron Paul's articles under "religion on www.ronpaul2008/com
.

"I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator.

I have worked tirelessly to defend and restore those rights for all Americans, born and unborn alike. The right of an innocent, unborn child to life is at the heart of the American ideal of liberty. My professional and legislative record demonstrates my strong commitment to this pro-life principle.

In 40 years of medical practice, I never once considered performing an abortion, nor did I ever find abortion necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman. In Congress, I have authored legislation that seeks to define life as beginning at conception, H.R. 1094. I am also the prime sponsor of H.R. 300, which would negate the effect of Roe v Wade by removing the ability of federal courts to interfere with state legislation to protect life. This is a practical, direct approach to ending federal court tyranny which threatens our constitutional republic and has caused the deaths of 45 million of the unborn. I have also authored H.R. 1095, which prevents federal funds to be used for so-called “population control.” Many talk about being pro-life. I have taken and will continue to advocate direct action to restore protection for the unborn.

I have also acted to protect the lives of Americans by my adherence to the doctrine of “just war.” This doctrine, as articulated by Augustine, suggested that war must only be waged as a last resort--- for a discernible moral and public good, with the right intentions, vetted through established legal authorities (a constitutionally required declaration of the Congress), and with a likely probability of success."



Here we see a honest man who doesn't talk about how he is going to be an authoritarian on the issue of religion. He doesn't say he will bring a federal mandate on religion or try to pass a constitutional amendment to bring religion to the public square. What we see is a a man who will continually fight for the right of all humans, to the rights of the unborn, to the rights of Christians and to the rights of all America. He also will fight against the immoral act of preemptive war.

He is simply for the inelliable rights of all human beings. Truly a libertarian!

[Mongoose470]

Every election cycle, the Republican candidates try to come off as the most Christian, and the most conservative. We shouldn't vote for somebody because they say they are Christian or Conservative, or because they promise to do things that benefit Christians and Conservatives. Rather, we should vote for somebody who has already done things in the past that show he is Christian and Conservative. In other words, somebody who HAS walked the walk... not somebody who is talking the talk.


Mathew 7:15-20

[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Kudos from an agnostic. Six of my family members turned from HUCKSTERbee. When I showed them the clip where the Good Huckster tried to deflect blame to the American people for the war and then told Ron Paul that we should keep our honor by not letting the possibility of a landslide loss steer us from our present perilous course in Iraq and soon Iran. All to keep our "honor."

We see no honor in continuing a mistake that will cost uncountable lives and could escalate into something truly horrific. We see no honor in monetarily, spiritually, ethically and morally bankrupting our nation. We see no honor in killing civilians of nations that are no threat to us. We see nothing honorable about defying and outright disobeying our Constitution.

And they saw nothing Christlike about it. From an agnostic to a Christian, Christian means ChristLike.

[eloquensanity]

From an agnostic to a Christian, Christian means ChristLike.

Exactly, and Christ never advocated invading countries and killing innocent people who had nothing to do with harming this country for revenge.

[Christianalwaysg124RP]

There was things asked about Chuck Baldwin..... No he isn't reformed. He is a Fundamentalist Baptist preacher.



Exactly, and Christ never advocated invading countries and killing innocent people who had nothing to do with harming this country for revenge.



Amen! He also went against religious people using religious law and hypocrisy against others.

Matt 23

For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[b] and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]

Luke 6
1One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2Some of the Pharisees asked, "Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"

3Jesus answered them, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions." 5Then Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

6On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. 7The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Get up and stand in front of everyone." So he got up and stood there.

9Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?"

10He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11But they were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.

[Mongoose470]

when surrounded by "non-believing nations" he didn't wage a holy war to convert them to Democracy...errr...Christianity. (Damn those slips are getting the best of me.)

He tought The Law to his own people and CLEANSED HIS OWN TEMPLE!

So count me in on the Revolution to cleanse our temple and teach our own about the Constitution. Children in our schools know every contraceptive and STD but don't even know what the fourth amendment is.

[Christianalwaysg124RP]

when surrounded by "non-believing nations" he didn't wage a holy war to convert them to Democracy...errr...Christianity. (Damn those slips are getting the best of me.)

He tought The Law to his own people and CLEANSED HIS OWN TEMPLE!

So count me in on the Revolution to cleanse our temple and teach our own about the Constitution. Children in our schools know every contraceptive and STD but don't even know what the fourth amendment is.


That is exactly right.

[Aratus]

was it wise for mccain to recommend that obama gain a wisdom by traveling to the mideast and iraq?

[Opelske]

I"m not sure what kind of talk is making you nervous.

Regarding your article: Do you really think a Ron Paul Republican would advocate a theocracy with religious police? Guess you don't know your candidate very well.

We are just like you in rejecting such a system.

We are simply witnessing that we love Christ and would like a leader that follows the principles of Christ, and that's not Mike Huckabee.

But it is Ron Paul.

I agree. Christianity as a moral guide, not as a legal code.