Bradley in DC, I'm callin' you out!

[Shink]

Bring it! Nah, kidding. Here's the point of this thread: some STRATEGY discussion. Hey, that's a novel idea around here lately!

Bradley, you are constantly clubbing your head into a wall when you see anybody say anything about delegates. Now, I don't doubt that you know more about the process than most people do, but: with your knowledge of the delegate process, how about some suggestions for what to do to next? It's fine to tell people they're wrong about a strategy, but how about putting forth your opinion of our best move/best strategic bet?

*What are chances now of a brokered convention?

*What could possibly be done to (try to) make one occur?

*Will Ron staying in as a Republican up his chances with this race?

*Anything else you want everyone to consider?

Thanks. Anything to keep productive rather than speculative/negative would be great.

[Shink]

Bump

[Apauled]

Does not matter I will vote RP by writing him in or otherwise

[j0ew00ds]

Agreed and bump. Got any bright ideas, he who is quick to dispel rumors?

[AlexMerced]

yep, do everything we can and hope for the best, but I would like to hear brads 2 cents

[Ron2Win]

Strategy must have been to become mainstream. Have some of the grassroots do some of the ads.

[speciallyblend]

PLEASE SIGN ASAP

SIGN PETITION http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/notogop/

bump this and these threads

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=113637
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=118219

please sign this petition and add to this thread if op can,thanks

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/notogop/

[Avalon]

If McCain sweeps the primaries tomorrow its game over for a brokered convention. Therefore, we need to do anything possible to support the Huckabeast tomorrow. If Huckleberry Hound forces a brokered convention, we/RP can affect the outcome by having delegates (whom are bound some number of rounds). The more delegates, the more influence. It would even be possible for RP to win if everyone worked their butts off to win those delegate slots but it is very unlikely to get everyone to do that at this point.

[Shink]

If McCain sweeps the primaries tomorrow its game over for a brokered convention. Therefore, we need to do anything possible to support the Huckabeast tomorrow. If Huckleberry Hound forces a brokered convention, we/RP can affect the outcome by having delegates (whom are bound some number of rounds). The more delegates, the more influence. It would even be possible for RP to win if everyone worked their butts off to win those delegate slots but it is very unlikely to get everyone to do that at this point.

Why not just get Ron a win by getting out the vote? I really disagree with the 'let's vote for Huck' thing...if someone will vote for Huck, who's to say they won't just go along with being a delegate for Huck too?

[ShowMeLiberty]

Why not just get Ron a win by getting out the vote? I really disagree with the 'let's vote for Huck' thing...if someone will vote for Huck, who's to say they won't just go along with being a delegate for Huck too?

+100

Vote for what you believe in. Let Huck find his own votes, we don't need to give him ours.

[limequat]

If McCain sweeps the primaries tomorrow its game over for a brokered convention. Therefore, we need to do anything possible to support the Huckabeast tomorrow. If Huckleberry Hound forces a brokered convention, we/RP can affect the outcome by having delegates (whom are bound some number of rounds). The more delegates, the more influence. It would even be possible for RP to win if everyone worked their butts off to win those delegate slots but it is very unlikely to get everyone to do that at this point.


Bullshit.
1) Huck doesn't have much better shot than Paul does.
2) Even if McCain does sweep tomorrow -and he probably will- it's still wide open.

McCain currently has 28% of the delegates committed. He's on track to get about 42%. Let him have his beltway states. We'll rack up delegates in KY, OR, and ID.

[Avalon]

Bullshit.
1) Huck doesn't have much better shot than Paul does.
2) Even if McCain does sweep tomorrow -and he probably will- it's still wide open.

McCain currently has 28% of the delegates committed. He's on track to get about 42%. Let him have his beltway states. We'll rack up delegates in KY, OR, and ID.

1. I'm not supporting Huck and his chances don't even matter. It's only his chances of stealing delegates from McCain that matters; he's our only shot!

2. Sorry, you're wrong. If he sweeps tomorrow he'll only need like 35% of those remaining and since most of the states left award their delegates proportionally, he'll have it locked up. Not to mention he'll kill of the Hucksters momentum/air.

[NinjaPirate]

I'm watching this thread like a hawk. Bradley, respond please!

[IRO-bot]

Or are you watching it like a ninja......HMMMMMMM.....

[No1ButPaul08]

Not Bradley, but I know a lot about delegates

We need to concentrate on delegates in ALL states, at ALL levels. Delegates do more than nominate a presidential candidate. They also vote on party rules and platform. Even if a delegate was bound to another candidate, they can still have an impact on the rules and platform

[NinjaPirate]

Or are you watching it like a ninja......HMMMMMMM.....

I meant my hawk. He does long distance recon. We're essentially "one," which is stated Article 213 Section 9.6.2 paragraph (b) of the Ninja Code that "Ninja" and "Spirit Animal" will be deemed as a single entity. So, when I say, "a" hawk or "my" hawk, it's basically the same thing. :cool:

[IRO-bot]

I meant my hawk. He does long distance recon. We're essentially "one," which is stated Article 213 Section 9.6.2 paragraph (b) of the Ninja Code that "Ninja" and "Spirit Animal" will be deemed as a single entity. So, when I say, "a" hawk or "my" hawk, it's basically the same thing. :cool:

You just blew my mind. :eek:

[limequat]

1. I'm not supporting Huck and his chances don't even matter. It's only his chances of stealing delegates from McCain that matters; he's our only shot!

DC, VA, and MD are all winner-take-all. Only the overall winner gets delegates. Why would you vote for Huck? He has virtually no shot.




2. Sorry, you're wrong. If he sweeps tomorrow he'll only need like 35% of those remaining and since most of the states left award their delegates proportionally, he'll have it locked up. Not to mention he'll kill of the Hucksters momentum/air.

If McCain sweeps tomorrow, he'll have 33% of the delegates comitted. No big deal. He'll probably get virtually shut out in TX and OH. Many more, as you state, are proportional. He'll get more delegates, but not enough. Check the polls and fundraising data. McCain isn't the lock that you think he is.

Also keep in mind the quantity of unpledged delegates. Currently, 18% are unpledged. About 25% of the total will be unpledged at the convention.

[Avalon]

Why not just get Ron a win by getting out the vote? I really disagree with the 'let's vote for Huck' thing...if someone will vote for Huck, who's to say they won't just go along with being a delegate for Huck too? Sorry, there's NO WAY Ron can win anystate primary at this point. He'd be lucky to win a caucus (outside of states that also have primaries like WA, which we won). Hopefully he can win his congressional district and maybe austin's. In any case, the whole strategy is winning delegate positions while getting as many delegates bound/pledged to ANYONE BUT McCain.

[Avalon]

DC, VA, and MD are all winner-take-all. Only the overall winner gets delegates. Why would you vote for Huck? He has virtually no shot. He does too have a shot in those contests if we deliver him our vote, the anti-McCain vote, and the Evangelical vote. More importantly, it's our only real shot.

[limequat]

He does too have a shot in those contests if we deliver him our vote, the anti-McCain vote, and the Evangelical vote. More importantly, it's our only real shot.

Dude, go back to hucksarmy. Huck has no better shot than Paul.

[Revolution9]

If McCain sweeps the primaries tomorrow its game over for a brokered convention. Therefore, we need to do anything possible to support the Huckabeast tomorrow. If Huckleberry Hound forces a brokered convention, we/RP can affect the outcome by having delegates (whom are bound some number of rounds). The more delegates, the more influence. It would even be possible for RP to win if everyone worked their butts off to win those delegate slots but it is very unlikely to get everyone to do that at this point.

You are dead flat wrong and ask people to give up sacred principle for political expediency. This is what this movement is trying to kill for it drives the heart of the beast.

Randy

[Revolution9]

1. I'm not supporting Huck and his chances don't even matter. It's only his chances of stealing delegates from McCain that matters; he's our only shot!

2. Sorry, you're wrong. If he sweeps tomorrow he'll only need like 35% of those remaining and since most of the states left award their delegates proportionally, he'll have it locked up. Not to mention he'll kill of the Hucksters momentum/air.

McCain is going to explode or implode spectacularly as the top GOP get the message from several different wings of the party all at once. He was a traitor and songbird in Viet Nam and there are several radio broadcasts to prove it.

Best
Randy

[JulioForPaul]

Let me save you time in waiting for Bradley in DC's response. Here it is:

"Your posts are a load of crap. Please stop spreading misinformation. You are doing more harm than good when you have no idea how the delegate process works. Every state is different. Please stop."

[Shink]

Let me save you time in waiting for Bradley in DC's response. Here it is:

"Your posts are a load of crap. Please stop spreading misinformation. You are doing more harm than good when you have no idea how the delegate process works. Every state is different. Please stop."

No, the point of this thread is to get him out of copy/paste mode. I'm sure he's got some good suggestions/input relating to campaign or grassroots strategy.

[goldstandard]

You are dead flat wrong and ask people to give up sacred principle for political expediency. This is what this movement is trying to kill for it drives the heart of the beast.

Randy

Exactly.

[Bradley in DC]

Sorry for the delayed response, I was out this morning (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1243096#poststop) and will probably be offline much of today and tomorrow.


Bring it! Nah, kidding. Here's the point of this thread: some STRATEGY discussion. Hey, that's a novel idea around here lately!

Bradley, you are constantly clubbing your head into a wall when you see anybody say anything about delegates. Now, I don't doubt that you know more about the process than most people do, but: with your knowledge of the delegate process, how about some suggestions for what to do to next? It's fine to tell people they're wrong about a strategy, but how about putting forth your opinion of our best move/best strategic bet?

*What are chances now of a brokered convention?

As I posted an answer a few days ago, nothing's changed: this is no time to slack off (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=114317). EDIT: also, about half of the delegates have not been selected yet: it might be mathematically possible for Dr. Paul to win on the first ballot yet! There is a lot of resistance among numerous circles to a McCain nomination. Who knows what is going to happen? For all I know some six-year-old Cuban boy will wash up on shore and that will be the deciding factor for the rest of the elections.

Also, I answered this previously (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1202655&postcount=10):

I've been asked this several times by PM, email, here, etc., so here is my answer:

Mathematically, Senator McCain does not have a majority of the delegates. In practice, his "mercurial" disposition and opposition from conservatives may combine to sideline him. A public meltdown is not out of the question. :eek: Half of the states still have to weigh in on the process.

So, yes, a brokered convention is possible--and not just in a Divine intervention, I believe in an all-powerful God sort of way. ;)

What happens then is anyone's guess. Put aside whatever "we" think about what "they" should do and try to think as if you were a Republican Party apologist. It will be very late in the game. They will want to beat Hillary-Obama (or Obama-Hillary, I don't know, whatever). Stop thinking in terms of what's right, the Constitution, the rEVOLution...wait, never stop thinking about those things...what I mean is just for this one mental exercise: "I'm a Republican and I want to win and ..." If the "and +" = nominate an anti-war candidate because the polls show it is the only way to beat the Ds, then we nominate an anti-war candidate (or whatever the polls a half a year away --eons in politics--tell us). This is just one "for example." For Pete's sake people, stop acting as if any of this has to make any sense in terms of rationales--this is politics! If Paul on the ticket = victory, then, well, they aren't as stupid or evil or whatever you want to think. The powers that be want to still be the powers that be.

Does obsessing over any of this now really help? Please, FOCUS: we have half of the contests now to compete in and, finally, we have professionals running HQ. This is no time for the grassroots to start acting like the weak link. :mad:


*What could possibly be done to (try to) make one occur?

This would have to be a state-by-state strategy. You people living in multi-stage, multi-process states just live with a weird system. I won't venture to suggest anything to those there except to look for guidance from local supporters who know the local rules, local people, local tricks to the trade, etc. What the WV supporters did making a tactical alliance with the Huckabee forces was great.

If your state is winner-take-all (either At-Large and/or by Congressional District), it might make some sense to vote for the second strongest candidate after McCain but best to try to do it in alliance with another camp (Huck, Mitt) so that we pick up some delegates too.

If your state awards delegates proportionately (caucus or primary), then do everything you can to turn out our people as much as possible--and vote for RP!


*Will Ron staying in as a Republican up his chances with this race?

ABSOLUTELY!


*Anything else you want everyone to consider?

The checklist (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1226001)


In response to requests, here is a quick checklist that should apply everywhere (rules in different states are so different it's hard to give general advice).


identify supporters and turn them out to vote.
identify "supervoters" who usually vote and spread the message to them; if you can't get a list of the actual voter rolls with histories, then look at the election returns--especially for primaries--and see which precincts have the highest turnout of Republicans (rank them by most Republican supervoters to least, hit as many precincts at the top of the list as you can; use the official campaign's Precinct Leader list to supplement your efforts but keep the information on a Google.doc spreadsheet accessible to the others with whom you are working).
identify all of the voting locations (make sure signs are posted at all voting locations in accordance with local ordinance the night before and have people leafleting for Dr. Paul there--dress well and be polite!)--if a caucus, follow leadership in your state on speeches or whatever.
each group needs to act to contact media about events and get their own endorsements for the campaign.
use your efforts to help Dr. Paul AND the other Liberty Candidates out there--make the most of your efforts!
SMILE :) We have so much to be thankful for in finding each other, Ron and Carol sacrificing so much of themselves, for having this opportunity in this great country...



McCain is going to explode or implode spectacularly as the top GOP get the message from several different wings of the party all at once.

Best
Randy

Yup.


We need to concentrate on delegates in ALL states, at ALL levels. Delegates do more than nominate a presidential candidate. They also vote on party rules and platform. Even if a delegate was bound to another candidate, they can still have an impact on the rules and platform

Yup.

No comment on Ninja oneness with Spirit Animals


Let me save you time in waiting for Bradley in DC's response. Here it is:

"Your posts are a load of crap. Please stop spreading misinformation. You are doing more harm than good when you have no idea how the delegate process works. Every state is different. Please stop."

HA! Please do check RNC by-laws and/or state election law before reposting information that might be bad even if--especially if--from official HQ.

[Shink]

Alright, we got in this thread what I was looking for. A couple points:

My 'will Ron staying in the race as a Republican' question was not referring to an idea that third party might be more worthwhile. My question was basically--do you think we are/will gain momentum in such a way that it will be worthwhile for Ron to stay in. Perhaps you answered that, I just didn't want any misinterpretation.

Next point--yep, I'm in Iowa, and I'm a delegate that is waiting on word about the next stage of the process. I don't know much about what I should say or do to move on to the next step, but I know from being around the GOP people during the big caucus day that it's very easy to get people to follow my lead. I'm a veteran, I don't put silly "the GOP needs to let God do all the work and just do your job" things as suggestions in the platform, people voted for my very Ron Paul-centric pledges for the GOP to incorporate into their platform almost across the board that day, etc. So I guess I'm just hopeful that there won't be trouble in moving up beyond a local delegate position.

And for the other stuff: where's a good spot for all of us to track down the relevant info we need to make our nationwide delegate operation a success? Links, in other words.

[acptulsa]

Why not just get Ron a win by getting out the vote? I really disagree with the 'let's vote for Huck' thing...if someone will vote for Huck, who's to say they won't just go along with being a delegate for Huck too?

In a winner-take-all state we'd be foolish to split the vote. In a proportional state we'd be downright stupid to deprive our man of any delegate we can get. Sad facts.

One state, which is a sort of combination of the above (close enough to winner-take-all, actually winner-take-district) I just hate to concede. The press has ridiculed a Texan. That Texan in the White House stabbed our Texan in the back in public. Texans love to put Texans in office--even the vice presidency.

How the hell do we get Texans to vote for their man?!

[acptulsa]

McCain is going to explode or implode spectacularly as the top GOP get the message from several different wings of the party all at once. He was a traitor and songbird in Viet Nam and there are several radio broadcasts to prove it.

Best
Randy

Yes indeed--but if we don't get him to do it before he sews up the nomination, there's no guarantee the arrogant ass won't concede even if he has no chance. Psychopaths don't do what's best for the party. That's how they become collaborating songbirds--and sometimes senators.

Even if he doesn't, we should keep working on it though. Delegate rules could get changed if he gets too stubborn...

[Avalon]

Yes indeed--but if we don't get him to do it before he sews up the nomination, there's no guarantee the arrogant ass won't concede even if he has no chance. Psychopaths don't do what's best for the party. That's how they become collaborating songbirds--and sometimes senators.

Even if he doesn't, we should keep working on it though. Delegate rules could get changed if he gets too stubborn... Exactly! And it seems like he's being given the nomination just so he can lose in november (as if they couldn't stack the deck any more).

[Sey.Naci]

McCain is going to explode or implode spectacularly as the top GOP get the message from several different wings of the party all at once. He was a traitor and songbird in Viet Nam and there are several radio broadcasts to prove it.
Either that, or he'll be very heavily medicated as an attempt to prevent it. Look for symptoms of that. ;)

[Avalon]

You are dead flat wrong and ask people to give up sacred principle for political expediency. This is what this movement is trying to kill for it drives the heart of the beast.

Randy Maybe, I don't think I could stomach voting for Huckabee myself. But most people we can influence do not care for whom they vote. We certainly shouldn't be attacking Huckabeast like others on this forum are trying to do. Anyway, I'm just giving practical advice/input which people can be free to make use of or discard at will.

[LEK]

Let's not ignore Romney's suspension. Someone on DailyPaul intimated he could have made this move so as to come to the convention as the party's "savior". Not impossible.

We can't forget that he too would be a terrible representative of conservatism and republicanism. He's basically a fair-weather politician and not a man of or for the people. He's duplicitous.

Perhaps a comparison of his record as governor and his flipping that record when he decided to run for president. People have short attention spans and if enough time goes by they will forget.

I guess what I am saying is when you speak against McCain's lack of integrity, don't leave Romney out - he truly isn't any better and will certainly not be a savior to anyone or anything.

[No1ButPaul08]

And for the other stuff: where's a good spot for all of us to track down the relevant info we need to make our nationwide delegate operation a success? Links, in other words.

This is currently in the works. A couple of us are putting together gopdelegates.com , which when it's done should have all the reveleant info.

[BrettCates]

He does too have a shot in those contests if we deliver him our vote, the anti-McCain vote, and the Evangelical vote. More importantly, it's our only real shot.

NO HE IS A AGENT OF MCCAIN

THEY HAVE ALREADY MADE THE FUCKING DEAL

STOP BRAINFUCKING US

[Pauliana]

On an emotional level, I can't imagine having one (possibly only one) opportunity to vote for RP and then for some stupid strategy BS reason voting for Huckabee.

Imagine if you had the chance to vote for Goldwater... or Thomas Jefferson... and didn't. Wow. I just couldn't do it.

[aksmith]

If we're going to get smoked in a winner take all state, then it does make some sense to write in Huckster. But if it's a proportional state, any vote not for Ron is a major mistake.

[Bradley in DC]

If we're going to get smoked in a winner take all state, then it does make some sense to write in Huckster. But if it's a proportional state, any vote not for Ron is a major mistake.

It might make sense to vote for Huck. Check with local polls, sentiments, see if you can make alliances, etc. It should NOT be an automatic.

[stevedasbach]

He does too have a shot in those contests if we deliver him our vote, the anti-McCain vote, and the Evangelical vote. More importantly, it's our only real shot.

I'm voting for Ron Paul in the Virginia primary tomorrow and I hope everyone else stays committed to Ron as well. Playing the "lesser of evils" game is what got us into this mess. We berated people who preferred Paul but voted for someone else because they bought the media spin that "he can't win". Let's not fall for it ourselves.

[TurtleBurger]

F### strategic voting. State conventions are the place for negotiations, not the ballot box.

[acptulsa]

F### strategic voting. State conventions are the place for negotiations, not the ballot box.

So, both for the purposes of getting delegates for our man and for shutting down McCain, how the hell do we get Texans to vote for one of their own?!

[RPDelegate]

Let me save you time in waiting for Bradley in DC's response. Here it is:

"Your posts are a load of crap. Please stop spreading misinformation. You are doing more harm than good when you have no idea how the delegate process works. Every state is different. Please stop."

Hahaha... ...yeah, something tells me he doesn't any more than anyone else. I highly doubt he knows the delegate process that much more than everyone else, but just refuses to discuss it.

[Shink]

Uh oh, Bradley haters are about to bring down the scunyon.

[No1ButPaul08]

Hahaha... ...yeah, something tells me he doesn't any more than anyone else. I highly doubt he knows the delegate process that much more than everyone else, but just refuses to discuss it.

This is ridiculous. Bradley does know more about delegates and the convention than just about anyone else. If he were to correct every single mistake that people made discussing about delegates and the brokered convention, he would be here all day, every day, just doing that. The level of misinformation about delegates here is astounding

[mcvac]

The "game " is dawning on me...I keep reading posts from people who just haven't got this brokered convention, delegate thing yet and really don't understand strategy..I admit it first read like stereo instructions to me...

But....

Can a good poker player or dealer please put this to an analogy that the masses can understand?

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

NO HE IS A AGENT OF MCCAIN

THEY HAVE ALREADY MADE THE FUCKING DEAL

STOP BRAINFUCKING US

Yep. Huckabee made the deal a long time ago, right when he got cfr ties. Then he suddenly shot out of nowhere. He's only still in this race at all because he's propped up by free media coverage. Huck was attacking Romney along with McCain. The two have been on the same team for awhile now.

[NinjaPirate]

Let's not ignore Romney's suspension. Someone on DailyPaul intimated he could have made this move so as to come to the convention as the party's "savior". Not impossible.

We can't forget that he too would be a terrible representative of conservatism and republicanism. He's basically a fair-weather politician and not a man of or for the people. He's duplicitous.

Perhaps a comparison of his record as governor and his flipping that record when he decided to run for president. People have short attention spans and if enough time goes by they will forget.

I guess what I am saying is when you speak against McCain's lack of integrity, don't leave Romney out - he truly isn't any better and will certainly not be a savior to anyone or anything.

QFT. Romney isn't completely out, yet! We need to keep an eye on him, too!

[LibertyEagle]

Enough of this BS. Vote for Ron Paul.

[Avalon]

Yep. Huckabee made the deal a long time ago, right when he got cfr ties. Then he suddenly shot out of nowhere. He's only still in this race at all because he's propped up by free media coverage. Huck was attacking Romney along with McCain. The two have been on the same team for awhile now. It doesn't matter, if he wins more delegates they cannot vote for McCain in the first round if he stays in, and that's all that matters.

[joenaab]

I believe there is a big difference between GOP members and GOP leadership. Yes, members new and old can rise up and make a huge stink about McCain, maybe force some scandal to be revealed...maybe even pull off a miracle at/before the convention. But it's clear to me that the leadership has their marching orders from the Corporate Oligarchy to whom they've sworn allegiance and it is this:

1. The wars will continue and will escalate.
2. The Fed and IRS will remain our masters.
3. The borders will remain open.
4. MSM will maintain their stranglehold on our election process.
5. Hillary will be the next president.
6. Government will get bigger.
7. The federal debt will get bigger.
8. Ron Paul will not win the nomination.

This isn't a football game, - GOP vs. the Democrats. At the top, they are truly the same party answering to the same interests. GOP leadership will not suddenly say, "Dear God, McCain can't beat Hillary, we need Ron Paul!" They know McCain can't win. They have always known. The importance of the above agenda transcends political parties.

The real battleground here is GOP membership vs. GOP leadership (and their puppet masters). In my private thoughts this past year I always expected a strong, but unsuccessful run at the GOP nomination, followed by a 3rd party run that had a great chance to succeed. I no longer see this as a good idea. I see the best play to be a full, frontal invasion of the GOP while they are the weakest they've been since their inception. This means learning the intricacies of the GOP rules and procedures in our home states, becoming delegates and precinct captains, running for office, attending meetings, recruiting others, etc. Let's set an ambitious goal of a team of ten people in each of the 280,000 precincts totaling 2.8 million people! It could take some time, but it would be a powerful force. We can change the plaforms, change the convoluted primary process, toss out all electronic voting and counting devices, take back control of our debates from MSM, flush out and prosecute the criminal enterprises within the government, etc.

This isn't a "win or lose" battle for the GOP nomination, this is the new revolution, a never ending battle to gain back our nation. We must stay on the offensive and accept nothing as defeat.

[billjarrett]

We're already on top of this where I live. Hopefully having a planning meeting soon once we get a conference room reserved.

[Avalon]

I'm voting for Ron Paul in the Virginia primary tomorrow and I hope everyone else stays committed to Ron as well. Playing the "lesser of evils" game is what got us into this mess. We berated people who preferred Paul but voted for someone else because they bought the media spin that "he can't win". Let's not fall for it ourselves. I'm not saying play the "lesser of evils" game (Huckster is an unacceptable nominee), I'm saying a vote for Huckabee tomorrow is a vote for RP.

[LizF]

I'm not saying play the "lesser of evils" game (Huckster is an unacceptable nominee), I'm saying a vote for Huckabee tomorrow is a vote for RP.


No, a vote for Huckabee is a vote for Huckabee.

A vote for RP is a vote for RP.


Even if RP were to lose in a winner take all state, wouldn't it be better that he do so with as many votes as possible, to show that there are people paying attention to the freedom message--and who will be opposed to a McCain-Huckabee ticket? Do we really think people looking at election results will think, "Oh some of those Huckabee votes were actually RP votes from pragmatic/strategic voters."

I can empathize with the willingness to stave off a McCain "coronation" in the GOP, but I don't think that voting against RP is necessarily the way to do so. The more votes actually cast for RP in all the primaries & caucuses, the better our chances of RP influencing the GOP, and the better of showing the GOP that RP voters are a force to be reckoned with.

[JordanQ72]

Even if RP were to lose in a winner take all state, wouldn't it be better that he do so with as many votes as possible, to show that there are people paying attention to the freedom message--and who will be opposed to a McCain-Huckabee ticket? Do we really think people looking at election results will think, "Oh some of those Huckabee votes were actually RP votes from pragmatic/strategic voters."

The public relations game is one we lost already, a good 5 weeks ago. It really doesn't matter if Ron somehow won every single state from here on out, he's still not the nominee. The goal is a brokered convention.


I can empathize with the willingness to stave off a McCain "coronation"

There is no empathizing. This is it, our last stand so to say. If McCain breaks through the magic number, all of the rest is pointless in terms of how well Ron did or will do. Unless you have a magic strategy to get Ron polling in the 70+% range, I don't see how the goal is anything other than forcing a brokered convention.

[Bradley in DC]

F### strategic voting. State conventions are the place for negotiations, not the ballot box.

Problem is, lots of states don't have state conventions at all. But you're probably right for when they do (rules vary by state!). ;)

[LizF]

The public relations game is one we lost already, a good 5 weeks ago. It really doesn't matter if Ron somehow won every single state from here on out, he's still not the nominee. The goal is a brokered convention.

The public relations game is one we lost already, a good 5 weeks ago.

Five weeks ago? That game was rigged from the start.


It really doesn't matter if Ron somehow won every single state from here on out, he's still not the nominee.

Even if Huckabee won every single state from here on out, that wouldn't guarantee a brokered convention either. Moreover, a vote for RP is a vote taken from McCain, not just Huckabee. Each state that RP can win is a state that McCain does not get.

If Huckabee wins a state on his own, so be it. However, I don't think it's our role as RP supporters/voters to make that happen for him (excepting for some deal that throws some delegates our way, as in WV, and even then that's a risky proposition...).



If McCain breaks through the magic number, all of the rest is pointless in terms of how well Ron did or will do.

I disagree. Even if McCain gets the nomination, there is value in showing the GOP that there is a segment of its voters who will not, under any circumstances vote for this nominee. We're a portion of the electorate who may end up influencing the general election (e.g. writing in RP; voting 3rd party; not going to the polls).

Interesting article linked in this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=116753

[Bradley in DC]

It really doesn't matter if Ron somehow won every single state from here on out, he's still not the nominee.

I'd have to check my math, but yes, he would be the nominee. :)

[BrettCates]

We need to steal the delegates.
We need to find more delegates.
We need to show up to the convention and revolt. This is the way to win. We infiltrate. We vote as many times down and we FILIBUSTER UNTIL WE WIN.

[kyleAF]

We need to steal the delegates.
We need to find more delegates.
We need to show up to the convention and revolt. This is the way to win. We infiltrate. We vote as many times down and we FILIBUSTER UNTIL WE WIN.



I've read the convention rules and as far as I can tell (please correct me, as I'm not familiar with U.S. HoR floor rules), an actual vote must be taken and tallied (not just a role call, though that's been done in non-contested conventions), if it's so requested.


RULE NO. 37
Roll Call
(b) In the balloting, the vote of each state shall be announced by the chairman of such state's delegation, or his or her designee; and in case the vote of any state shall be divided, the chairman shall announce the number of votes for each candidate, or for or against any proposition; but if exception is taken by any delegate from that state to the correctness of such announcement by the chairman of that delegation, the chairman of the convention shall direct the roll of members of such delegation to be called, and the result shall be recorded in accordance with the vote of the several delegates in such delegation.

States determine the rules for whether a delegate is bound or unbound, and it's the states that must enforce those rules. What would they honestly do at the convention if everyone just up and decided to vote differently?

And there's always the motion to abandon the rules outright, right?


RULE NO. 32
Suspension of Rules

A motion to suspend the rules shall always be in order, but only when made by authority of a majority of the delegates from any state and seconded by a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more other states severally.

And what about taking into account how many delegates vs. alternates will actually show up?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this usually doesn't get filled with all the delegates (though I'm sure that a brokered convention would change that). What number does "votes entitled" refer to?



RULE NO. 40
Nominations
(d) When at the close of a roll call any candidate for nomination for President of the United States or Vice President of the United States has received a majority of the votes entitled to be cast in the convention, the chairman of the convention shall declare that the candidate has been nominated.

If anyone knows more, I'd like to hear it...

http://www.gop.com/About/Rules31-41.htm

[Bradley in DC]

And what about taking into account how many delegates vs. alternates will actually show up?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this usually doesn't get filled with all the delegates (though I'm sure that a brokered convention would change that).
http://www.gop.com/About/Rules31-41.htm

Um, no. All of the delegate slots will be filled at the convention (that's the job of the alternates if the delegates themselves are not substituted out--we've done that with the Ron Paul DC slate of delegate candidates already, maybe a third of the original ones). The convention is a big party, lots of networking, free booze (paid by lobbyists, etc.) lots of smoozing. All of the seats will be filled.

[JordanQ72]

Even if Huckabee won every single state from here on out, that wouldn't guarantee a brokered convention either.

What the hell? :confused:

I'm just going to assume you meant nominee and not brokered convention, but Huckabee can still possibly get a 1st round win as a nominee actually.

[Revolution9]

I'm not saying play the "lesser of evils" game (Huckster is an unacceptable nominee), I'm saying a vote for Huckabee tomorrow is a vote for RP.

Bullshot. You are a Huckabee supporter pretending to be an RP supporter. Huckabee is McCain's VP.. Yer a liar and a thief.

Randy

[kyleAF]

Um, no. All of the delegate slots will be filled at the convention (that's the job of the alternates if the delegates themselves are not substituted out--we've done that with the Ron Paul DC slate of delegate candidates already, maybe a third of the original ones). The convention is a big party, lots of networking, free booze (paid by lobbyists, etc.) lots of smoozing. All of the seats will be filled.

The only people who are allowed to fill the seats are the elected and pre-certified delegates or alternates. It's not always easy for someone to get from Hawaii to St. Paul for 4 straight days. A brokered convention would probably find campaigns paying for airfare for their delegates, though. No one but the delegates, or alternates (only if the delegate is a no-show) are permitted to vote. If neither show up, that's one less vote that is cast.

Here are the rules:


RULE NO. 21
Temporary Roll

(a) The names of the delegates and alternate delegates presenting certificates of election from the officials designated in Rule No. 19 shall be placed upon the temporary roll of the national convention by the Republican National Committee.

(b) No person on the temporary roll of the national convention and whose right to be seated as a delegate or alternate delegate is being contested shall be entitled to vote in the national convention or in any committee thereof until by vote of the national convention the contest as to such person has been finally decided and such person has been permanently seated, except that any such person may be accorded the right to so vote, except in matters involving the credentials of that person, by an affirmative vote of a majority of the members of the Republican National Committee or the Committee on Credentials.


RULE NO. 29
Voting

(a) Each delegate to the convention shall be entitled to one (1) vote, which may be cast by an alternate delegate in the absence of the delegate, and an individual holding more than one (1) of the following positions: national committeeman; national committeewoman; or state chairman of any state, shall not be entitled to more than one (1) delegate seat and shall not be entitled to more than one (1) vote.

(b) In the absence of any delegate at large or any delegate from any congressional district, the roll of alternate delegates for the state or district shall be called in the order in which the names are placed upon the roll of the convention, unless the law governing the state or district electing the absent delegate, the state or district convention, or the Republican state committee or governing committee shall otherwise provide, or the delegation shall otherwise direct at the time of certification, in which event the alternate delegates from the state or district shall vote in the order established pursuant to the foregoing, as set forth in the delegation's certification. The form of certificate provided by the Republican National Committee shall provide a means by which an order for voting by alternate delegates may be specified.





I see that there are ways to substitute and contest delegates and such. It looks like the potential for further shenanigans from the GOP leadership against us... or we could possibly use it to our own advantage.

Also, the ROEs for the convention are those of Dr. Paul's own stomping ground: the U.S. House of Representatives. He's a veteran of the process!!

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

It doesn't matter, if he wins more delegates they cannot vote for McCain in the first round if he stays in, and that's all that matters.

Great point. Uhhh, except that they'll just do it in later rounds. Huck and McCain are on the same team. Outcome is the same. Helping Huckabee will also hurt people's self esteem for years to come.