dept of state: McCain not eligible to be president?

[Phantom]

dept of state: McCain not eligible to be president? (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/citizenship.php)

[TruthisTreason]

If only Washington D.C. followed the rules...>!

[Redcard]

The Panama Canal Zone was a US Territory via the Hay-Bunau Varilla Treaty which was signed in 1903 and ratified in Congress shortly after.

[slamhead]

Stop spreading this false information. The fact that he was born to an American citizen it does not matter where you are born. You could be born on the moon to American citizens and you are still an American citizen.

[noztnac]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Dependents of military personnel are automatically US citizens regardless of where they are born.

[Phantom]

Ok, thanks.

[Phantom]

Maybe someone here can explain to me what this means?

ACQUISITION AND RETENTION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND NATIONALITY

7 FAM 1111.2 Citizenship

Taken from this state.gov (http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf) PDF page.

(2) Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ), a concept of Roman or civil law under which a person’s citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called “citizenship by descent” or “derivative citizenship”, is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution, but such citizenship is granted through statute. As laws have changed, the requirements for conferring and retaining derivative citizenship have also changed.

Taken from The Constitution of the United States, Article II Section 1 (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/art2.htm#2sec1)

4. No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.

[Redcard]

It means nothing.

John McCain was born in the US Territory of the Panama Canal Zone.

He was born on US Soil.

[MrCobaltBlue]

Wait we follow the Constitution now?

[KevinR]

He'll give himself amnesty, so its all good :D

[paulgeek]

Maybe someone here can explain to me what this means?

ACQUISITION AND RETENTION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND NATIONALITY

7 FAM 1111.2 Citizenship

Taken from this state.gov (http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf) PDF page.

(2) Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ), a concept of Roman or civil law under which a person’s citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called “citizenship by descent” or “derivative citizenship”, is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution, but such citizenship is granted through statute. As laws have changed, the requirements for conferring and retaining derivative citizenship have also changed.

Taken from The Constitution of the United States, Article II Section 1 (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/art2.htm#2sec1)

4. No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.

You missed the part that says "...such citizenship is granted through statute." The 14th amendment states that all who are born in the United States or her jurisdiction are granted citizenship which cannot be affected by statute. Anything outside the jurisdiction of the U.S. is determined by statute. In fact, before the 14th amendment, citizenship was determined solely by statute and the courts. Now we have a constitutional amendment, statutes, and case law that determines all citizenship questions, including natural born citizenship questions. McCain is a natural born citizen either through the constitution or by statutes that allow a child born to two American citizens outside the U.S. to be a citizen. This isn't an issue at all.

[Phantom]

Thanks for clearing that up for me paulgeek.

[JordanQ72]

Maybe someone here can explain to me what this means?

ACQUISITION AND RETENTION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND NATIONALITY

7 FAM 1111.2 Citizenship

Taken from this state.gov (http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf) PDF page.

(2) Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ), a concept of Roman or civil law under which a person’s citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called “citizenship by descent” or “derivative citizenship”, is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution

Is the State Department retarded? Wait, don't answer that...

There have been numerous Supreme Court cases that have ruled citizenship by blood to be valid constitutionally.

[jglapski]

Stop spreading this false information. The fact that he was born to an American citizen it does not matter where you are born. You could be born on the moon to American citizens and you are still an American citizen.

Yes, you would be an American citizen, but you wouldn't be a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. The Founders didn't throw in NATURAL BORN for the hell of it.

Your citizenship would be derivative from your parents' citizenship.

[jglapski]

Is the State Department retarded? Wait, don't answer that...

There have been numerous Supreme Court cases that have ruled citizenship by blood to be valid constitutionally.

But where are the rulings on natural born citizenship? There haven't been any, as far as I know.

[NinjaPirate]

dept of state: McCain not eligible to be president? (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/citizenship.php)

Well, sh!t, according to that I'm technically not a citizen either!! :eek:

[jglapski]

You missed the part that says "...such citizenship is granted through statute." The 14th amendment states that all who are born in the United States or her jurisdiction are granted citizenship which cannot be affected by statute. Anything outside the jurisdiction of the U.S. is determined by statute. In fact, before the 14th amendment, citizenship was determined solely by statute and the courts. Now we have a constitutional amendment, statutes, and case law that determines all citizenship questions, including natural born citizenship questions. McCain is a natural born citizen either through the constitution or by statutes that allow a child born to two American citizens outside the U.S. to be a citizen. This isn't an issue at all.

You're missing the part that this has nothing to do with natural born citizenship. The only part of natural born citizenship that can be altered by statute is whether some land is considered part of the US.

What you quoted has everything to do with citizenship, and it is called DERIVATIVE citizenship, not NATURAL BORN citizenship.

[Redcard]

And you're all missing the fact that the PANAMA CANAL ZONE was a US Territory.

[Bubba]

Wait we follow the Constitution now?


He'll give himself amnesty, so its all good :D

FUNNY stuff LOL!

sad, but true

well, it WAS funny at first. now, not so much. sigh

[wecandoit]

I've read all the angles concerning this, and IMO there does seem to be a legitimate difference between "citizen" and "natural born citizen" with being born in a US terrirtory being different from being born in a US state.

This question was even raised about Goldwater back in the day, because he was born in Arizona in 1909, before it was a state. Back then it was assumed by most he'd been ok had he won in 1964.

But the bottom line is a court has never ruled on it one way or another, we are just hearing people's opinons.

If there is any possible way this could eliminate McCain and help Paul, it would have to come in the form of a court ruling.

So the question should be, is it possible to get a court ruling on this before the covention, and how would that be done?

Obviously, we'd need a strict constitutionalist, conservative judge who doesn't think conservative values are being represented by anyone any more :)

[Bradley in DC]

and focus

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=1224573#poststop

John McCain, while born in Panama, is a natural born citizen (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=1221551&postcount=5)

[JordanQ72]

I've read all the angles concerning this, and IMO there does seem to be a legitimate difference between "citizen" and "natural born citizen" with being born in a US terrirtory being different from being born in a US state.

Yes, but there is also no such thing as 'DERIVATIVE citizenship' that jglapski claims. You have Natural Born Citizenship, Naturalized Citizenship, and US Nationality, and of course being a no one in the eyes of the US government. McCain most definitely is not a naturalized citizen. The argument of whether he is a US national would be an interesting one, if he had not been born to US parents. That makes him a natural born citizen, not a US national.

[txrep]

Congress passed legislation in 1790 stating that children of U.S. citizens born outside the U.S. shall be considered natural born. (George Romney, presidential candidate and father of former candidate Mitt Romney, was born in Mexico to U.S. citizens.) The Supreme Court has not had the opportunity to rule whether that legislation is constitutional. The Court has held that children born in the United States to non-citizens are natural born citizens. No one has seriously considered challenging McCain's eligibility, and I doubt even a legitimate court battle would progress very far.

The Fourteenth Amendment states ... "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States." The United States includes its territories. (Presidential candidate Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona, when it was a territory and not yet a state.) McCain was not naturalized, so he must fit the other definition, "born." Those would be my arguments.

[JordanQ72]

The Supreme Court has not had the opportunity to rule whether that legislation is constitutional.

Under what constitutional grounds would that be challenged? That the government isn't allowed to define citizenship statutes?

[qh4dotcom]

And you're all missing the fact that the PANAMA CANAL ZONE was a US Territory.

It was not a territory....it was a LEASE.

And in 1999 the US had to move out, like the end of any lease.

[jglapski]

Yes, but there is also no such thing as 'DERIVATIVE citizenship' that jglapski claims. You have Natural Born Citizenship, Naturalized Citizenship, and US Nationality, and of course being a no one in the eyes of the US government. McCain most definitely is not a naturalized citizen. The argument of whether he is a US national would be an interesting one, if he had not been born to US parents. That makes him a natural born citizen, not a US national.

From the US State Department site:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf

"(2) Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ), a concept of Roman or civil law under
which a person’s citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called “citizenship by descent” or “derivative citizenship”, is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution, but such citizenship is granted through statute. As laws have changed, the requirements for conferring and retaining derivative citizenship have also changed.

The progression is that citizenship is acquired by birth or by naturalization.

If by birth:
Jus soli: natural born citizen
Jus sanguinis: not natural born citizen

[JordanQ72]

From the US State Department site:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf

"(2) Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ), a concept of Roman or civil law under
which a person’s citizenship is determined by the citizenship of one or both parents. This rule, frequently called “citizenship by descent” or “derivative citizenship”, is not embodied in the U.S. Constitution, but such citizenship is granted through statute. As laws have changed, the requirements for conferring and retaining derivative citizenship have also changed.



And where is your legal findings and rulings defining this concept of derivative citizenship? Hello buddy, the Department of State is neither Congress nor the Supreme Court. All I see is your blatantly stupid and poor reading of something the State Department put out.

Do you just not understand what 'through statute' means? The Constitution doesn't even DEFINE what a natural born citizen is. As for the State Department finding, all it says is that citizenship is infact acquired through birth, it doesn't GIVE ANY MENTION of your nonsense concept of not being a natural born citizen.


If by birth:
Jus soli: natural born citizen
Jus sanguinis: not natural born citizen

Where does it say this? That's your own flawed interpretation. Infact, I couldn't find the term 'natural born citizen' anywhere in your linked State Department file. Thus, is NO ONE a natural born citizen? The term "natural born" is just in opposition to naturalized. There are no further divisions that you claim.

[tomcr]

The Panama Canal zone was never a territory, and never part of the United States. It was leased from Panama in the way that we lease gitmo from Cuba. We all know the reasons why W and them put the secret prison at gitmo, which is to escape the jurisdiction of our courts.
If McCain were born in the Panama Canal zone, he is not a citizen due to being born on American soil, he is a citizen due to his parent's citizenship.
Barry Goldwater was born in an American territory, and that was a completely different situation.
I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that a court strictly obeying the law may well have to disqualify him.

[JordanQ72]

The Panama Canal zone was never a territory, and never part of the United States. It was leased from Panama in the way that we lease gitmo from Cuba. We all know the reasons why W and them put the secret prison at gitmo, which is to escape the jurisdiction of our courts.
If McCain were born in the Panama Canal zone, he is not a citizen due to being born on American soil, he is a citizen due to his parent's citizenship.
Barry Goldwater was born in an American territory, and that was a completely different situation.
I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that a court strictly obeying the law may well have to disqualify him.

Natural born doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It simply means being born a citizen, as opposed to being naturalized as a citizen. Whether due to being born to illegal aliens on US soil, or being born to US citizens on the moon, in both cases you're a natural born citizen, as opposed to a naturalized citizen.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NON-NATURAL BORN NON-NATURALIZED CITIZEN AND I DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG.

Also, you're wrong about the Panama Canal Zone. It very much so was a territory.