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mstrmac1
02-08-2008, 08:19 PM
This one really drills down into the illegal issue.
THIS HAS GOT TO BE PASSED ALONG TO AS MANY AS POSSIBLE OR WE WILL ALL GO DOWN THE DRAIN BECAUSE A FEW DON'T CARE.

This English teacher has phrased it the best I've seen yet

Tomatoes and Cheap Labor

CHEAP TOMATOES?
This should make everyone think, be you Democrat, Republican or Independent
From a California school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic
and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens , Huntington Park , etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.

Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. ( OUR TAX DOLLARS ATWORK )

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phonesThe school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family watch their kids. ( OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing
funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need foranything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center, half of which, one monthlater, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America(OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers, calling them "Putas" whores and throwing things that the teachers were in tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care
etc., etc, etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements ?

To those who want to point out how much these illegal immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.

Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, morecrime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, newdiseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it . Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily leave and return?


It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-worldculture that does not value education , that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses
to assimilate, and an American culture that has become soweak and worried about " politically correctness" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.

CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.

Consumers don't want expensive produce.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.

But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth , a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an " earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent .

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.
He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour inbenefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.

The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people!

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THEPRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOR EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'

THIS HAS GOT TO BE PASSED ALONG TO AS MANY AS POSSIBLE OR WE WILL ALL GO DOWN THE DRAIN BECAUSE A FEW DON'T CARE

mstrmac1
02-08-2008, 08:28 PM
Anyone?

Soccrmastr
02-08-2008, 08:31 PM
Actually very good and interesting read. Might pass this on to some people.

libertythor
02-08-2008, 08:35 PM
Most middle class Mexicans (half of the population) in Mexico don't want them.

mstrmac1
02-08-2008, 08:37 PM
Most middle class Mexicans in Mexico don't want them.

Dont want what?

Delaware
02-08-2008, 08:37 PM
I'd pick tomatoes for minumum wage if there was some type of farm near me..(im a student)

Dustancostine
02-08-2008, 08:42 PM
I understand your frustrations and agree with that we need to stop illegal immigration and definitely end entitlement programs, especially to illegal immigrants, But:


It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-worldculture that does not value education , that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to assimilate

This is totally incorrect:

1) If immigrants didn't value education, they would not come here or have their children enrolled in schools. On the other hand I would say that the opposite is true, immigrants greatly value education because they want their children to have a better life than themselves.

2) Teen pregnancy %'s is more a result of socioeconomic status and not culture. For instance the hispanic rate is below the african american rate, while the caucasian rate is lower than the hispanic, but along socioeconomic lines they are all the same.

3) Hispanic immigrants (whether illegal or legal) do assimilate, I don't have the stats in front of me, but by second generation (the generation that is born here, not necessarily young children brought here) most children of immigrants are fully assimilated and speak english first and spanish rarely. Also their incomes come up to par with caucasians by that generation as well.

So while a problem, making immigrants into devils is not helpful or appropriate. What would you do if you were in a country with not opportunity? I know I would risk anything to better my family. The problem has to be resolved through enforcing our laws, ending entitlements and creating a path for workers.

--Dustan

affa
02-08-2008, 08:46 PM
Warning - despite the subtitle, this probably won't work and might just backfire with anyone you consider 'liberal'. Treating all cases like a 'worst case' scenario doesn't fly well with anyone - it lets people shut down and dismiss the entire article.

Also, lines like "have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education in America" ignore the fact that plenty of non-immigrant children destroy/damage/mark up school property on a regular basis - thus this line will be challenged by many readers. Once you have a reader start dismissing lines, the whole piece becomes suspect in their mind.

affa
02-08-2008, 08:47 PM
So while a problem, making immigrants into devils is not helpful or appropriate.

Exactly.

mstrmac1
02-08-2008, 08:51 PM
I understand your frustrations and agree with that we need to stop illegal immigration and definitely end entitlement programs, especially to illegal immigrants, But:



This is totally incorrect:

1) If immigrants didn't value education, they would not come here or have their children enrolled in schools. On the other hand I would say that the opposite is true, immigrants greatly value education because they want their children to have a better life than themselves.

2) Teen pregnancy %'s is more a result of socioeconomic status and not culture. For instance the hispanic rate is below the african american rate, while the caucasian rate is lower than the hispanic, but along socioeconomic lines they are all the same.

3) Hispanic immigrants (whether illegal or legal) do assimilate, I don't have the stats in front of me, but by second generation (the generation that is born here, not necessarily young children brought here) most children of immigrants are fully assimilated and speak english first and spanish rarely. Also their incomes come up to par with caucasians by that generation as well.

So while a problem, making immigrants into devils is not helpful or appropriate. What would you do if you were in a country with not opportunity? I know I would risk anything to better my family. The problem has to be resolved through enforcing our laws, ending entitlements and creating a path for workers.

--Dustan

I doubt that its totally incorrect! Also, I dont think the artical is making them into devils. I think its explaining the nanny state that we create in america. Furthermore, If you think for one minute ALL Illegals are here to work hard and to make a honest living you are mistaken. We must have standards and rules. The narative summary basically states that cheap labor is the big debate on why Illegals are sometimes OK to be here and discredits it.

libertythor
02-08-2008, 08:53 PM
Dont want what?

The segment with the ghetto entitlement mentality. Yeah you hear the average Mexican complaining about our immigration system....their media tells them to, but most really look down on those who go the LA ghetto lifestyle ... and most of their private comments ridicule the urban migrants. The farmworkers are still respected though.

During the last elections here there was talk about enterprise vs. welfare as well. e.g. Felipe Calderon Hinojosa vs Andrés Manuel López Obrador

But unfortunately the choice between the two was just about as sucky as what we get offered. A right wing communitarian vs. a far left wing communitarian. The third party candidates that offered real systemic change and freedoms for Mexico were largely marginalized by the media.

mstrmac1
02-08-2008, 08:55 PM
Thanks for the clarity

libertythor
02-08-2008, 09:05 PM
What is ironic is that McCain talks about compassion and amnesty, but look at what he helped do to thousands of Native Americans!


http://digg.com/politics/McCain_Sponsored_S_1003_Removal_of_Navajo_Lands_Ge nocide

libertea
02-08-2008, 09:08 PM
...
It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-worldculture that does not value education , that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15
...


Not much LOVE in that rEVOLution.

My wife is Mexican and has a Masters degree in Business Administration and a second Masters in Computer Systems. As far as I know, she was a virgin until we were married. There are plenty of people in our culture who do not value education and get pregnant while still in school.

I have received some great advice from my business mentor. He says never blame people, blame the systems. I think this is good advice here and is in line with Ron Paul's philosophy. He has stated on several occasions that he does not want to put anybody on the streets who has been brought up to be dependent on the system. Let's stay focused on fixing the system.

I tend to disagree. This should not be passed along to anyone unless it can be rephrased in a more positive, fix the system focused manner.

rb

mstrmac1
02-08-2008, 09:14 PM
When i read the artical I took away that it was the system that causes these things. If you cant read between the lines that its the system then ... i dont know. I dont doubt for one second that there are social classes in every segment of Illegals that want great things and those also looking for hand outs. It is the system that breeds this though, i agree.

theczar1776
02-08-2008, 09:15 PM
One of the best articles i have ever read i will print out copies to give out, thanks so much:)
Even here in Hawaii there are illegal immigrants, everywhere, so this is not a "border-state-only" issue it involves everybody directly!!!

theczar1776
02-08-2008, 09:18 PM
you people seem to be too busy being politically correct to see that there ARE differences in culture, ect. i don't want to be a jerk but there are going to be problems when ANY two groups mix and there is a change in something (economic, political, ect.), so to say "just let everyone in'' well just should not need explaination.

Dustancostine
02-08-2008, 09:46 PM
I doubt that its totally incorrect!

Not to sound snobby, but do some research, talk to some people from border states or sociologist and economist who study these things, instead of the opinion of a frustrated teacher.


Also, I dont think the artical is making them into devils.

Yes it is. This line particularly:


It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-worldculture that does not value education , that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses
to assimilate, and an American culture that has become soweak and worried about " politically correctness" that we don't have the will to do anything about it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.




Furthermore, If you think for one minute ALL Illegals are here to work hard and to make a honest living you are mistaken.

If you think any at all about ALL people then you are ignorant, I never said that, but to back up the point that I am trying to make:

From the article The Great Assimilation Machine, The Wallstreet Journal, June 5, 2007, pg. A23

"Mexican-born (citizen and immigrant, both legal and illegal) men had higher labor force participation rates than native-born male workers, 88% compared to 83%, and lower unemployment rates than native workers, 4.4% compared to 5.1% in 2006. Labor force participation rates of illegal immigrants are higher yet, a whopping 94%"

94 percent may not be all, but that is just about all.

And other statistics for you from that article:

"More importantly, the children of Hispanic immigrants are graduating from high school. The highschool completion rate for young, U.S.-born Hispanics is 86%, only slightly lower than the 92% of non-Hispanic whites."

"Hispanics are more likely than eithe whites or blacks to continue their education into two year institutions; in 2000 they represented 14% of all students enrolled in these instituions."

On learning English:

"English is the preferred language of virtually all U.S-born Hispanics; according to a study by Pew Hispanic Center, indeed, 78% of third-generation Mexican Americans cannot speak Spanish at all. Even in Southern California, an area with the largest population of Spanish speakers in the nation, 96% of third-generation Mexican Americans prefer to speak English at home."

On climbing the economic ladder:

"A 2006 Commerce Department study reported that Hispanics are opening businesses at a rate three times faster than the national average."

"Half of all Hispanics own homes."

On out of wedlock births:

"One genuinely disturbing trend is the increase in out-of-wedlock births among Hispanics, which has risen to 46% in 2004 from 24% in 1980, compared with 24.5% for non-Hispanic whites and 69% for blacks. (Mexican immigrants actually have a lower rate of 35%). This is not good, but it is not clear that these unmarried mothers remain so for long or that their children grow up in fatherless homes. Marriage rates for Hispanics are virtually the same as for whites, suggesting many unwed mothers make it to the alter eventually, and they are no more likely to divorce than whites. The most comprehensive study of marriage and cohabitation, produced by the Department of Health and Human Services in 2002, shows that 77% of Hispanic women will marry by the age of 30, compared with 81% for whites and 52% for blacks. Moreover, 67% of Mexican origin children live in two parent famalies, compared with about 77% for whites, and 37% for blacks."

"Finally, consider that ultimate indicator of assimilation, intermarriage. One in four Hispanics marries a non-Hispanic white spouse, but nearly one-third of all U.S. born Hispanics who are married have non-Hispanic spouses, and the percentage is slightly higher among college educated Hispanic women, 35%. "



So I guess all of these statistics kind of blow the originals articles gross misrepresentations out of the water. Kind of like I said, totally incorrect.

-Dustan Costine

Dustancostine
02-08-2008, 09:49 PM
you people seem to be too busy being politically correct to see that there ARE differences in culture, ect. i don't want to be a jerk but there are going to be problems when ANY two groups mix and there is a change in something (economic, political, ect.), so to say "just let everyone in'' well just should not need explaination.

I call bullshit.

1) no ever said to just let everyone who wants to come.

2) In Texas we have had a mixing of these two cultures since the 1800's when Caucasians and Hispanics stood side by side defending the Alamo and we have had no problems. Also this country is made of mixing of cultures.

3) Just like libtea, I have these two cultures mixing in my house (my wife is from the Dominican Republic) with no problems. So what is your evidence?

BTW: What are the problems due to culture? I would really like to know.

And as I have said repeatedly the entitlements have to go.

theczar1776
02-08-2008, 10:05 PM
oh brother, you didn't get what i was saying at all:( i am not attacking mexicans, and i am not saying that you and your wife's cultures can't mix that is the MICRO scale of things. sure, most people of mixed culture can get along fine but, on the MACRO scale thats when things go wrong, for example the Whites/Blacks think the Hispanics are taking their jobs so then they get angry at all Hispanics, then the Hispanics think the Whites/Blacks hate them so they retaliate, and so on and so on. it is a self feeding cycle just trouble. i have no problems with people that come here and want to assimilate fully, but Mexican flags?, La Raza?, no. no if i were to go around waving a German, British or whatever flag, people would think i was a nut. but it's just "Hispanic Pride". Bullcrap, it's just another stupid way to divide us.

Dustancostine
02-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Ok I take back some fury and apologize.

Also we don't have that Mexican Flag/La Raza problem in Texas. Almost all Hispanics prefer to be called Tejano. That is more of a Cali problem. But I bet 40-50 years from now that the third generation descendants of those people will be fully Americanized, just like in the article I stated above your post which shows that most third generation Hispanics cannot even speak Spanish, just like most third-generation Germans or Italians cannot speak German or Italian even though their great grandparents did.

Furthermore, I don't see such a big culture war for jobs, because I don't see immigrants replacing jobs that are currently being done by citizens, more than not they are taking jobs that citizens are not currently doing (Not saying that citizens wouldn't do those jobs for higher pay, but currently they are not doing them for the pay provided).

-Dustan

theczar1776
02-08-2008, 10:44 PM
the wages of the jobs that the citizens are not taking are ARTIFICIALLY LOW, and lets take contracting, i know people that made 30$hr. building houses, now well you can get a illegal alien to do it for 12-15$ hr. and landscaping/gardening is even worse. now it is true that illegals fill the lowest paying jobs up first but then the wages of the next wage bracket go down and so on. it is simple the more workers the more supply of labor the more unemployment (by adding a lot of new workers, and none or not many new jobs.)but why blame it on the system if you can blame it on "Them damn wetbacks" or "Los Gringos". and besides we aren't living 40-50 years in the future, but take all the Asians here in Hawaii the ones that have come over recently are some the most "American'' people you can meet.