Has anyone convinced a war supporter to vote for Ron Paul

[AlbemarleNC0003]

I've tried. I haven't been able to convince any to vote for Ron Paul. I thought I had a couple almost there until the McCain CPAC speech. Any advice from anyone that's been successful would be greatly appreciated.

[Rob]

I've tried. I haven't been able to convince any to vote for Ron Paul. I thought I had a couple almost there until the McCain CPAC speech. Any advice from anyone that's been successful would be greatly appreciated.

I was one, sort of. I'm one of those people who saw through all the crap initially and was vehemently against the war in the beginning, but once we were there feared a pull out. However, I don't think there are many Americans like me who opposed the war before it started and tacitly supported it after, so I'm probably not much use. Personally, I've never found anyone like me and I haven't had any success with pro-war people.

[PineGroveDave]

I have. Not only did he support the war, but he's a devout Christian. His in-laws gave him and his wife grief for not voting for Huckabee ("You need to support your Christian brother!"...LOL! ). Just yesterday he told me that after the primary in CA.

[GeorgiaforPaul08]

Yea i need some help to with some back up for my sources. I am trying to convince my friend that our foregin policy will only strengthen the US and that "isolamo facism" will be less of a threat to our country

[wd4freedom]

I've tried. I haven't been able to convince any to vote for Ron Paul. I thought I had a couple almost there until the McCain CPAC speech. Any advice from anyone that's been successful would be greatly appreciated.

Ron Paul convinced me to change my mind.
And the primary reason that I changed my views, was Ron Paul's principled arguments for :
"Declaring War"
"Not going to war under UN"
Strong Defense, not Offense
We are not able to afford this war
The issue is about Foreign Policy, not about war verse anti-war.



I am very pro-military, ex Navy, currently work in an industry supporting National defense and security, etc, etc. I bought into the neo-con reasoning because of my pro-military disposition. Ron Paul's arguments really awakended me and it was a moment of true transformation. We do not need to be a Super-Power. We need to be Super-Free................ respect and admiration will follow.

I think others like me would be open to Ron Paul based on the principles above.

[Chester Copperpot]

I've tried. I haven't been able to convince any to vote for Ron Paul. I thought I had a couple almost there until the McCain CPAC speech. Any advice from anyone that's been successful would be greatly appreciated.

sure not only that but she was a big rudy fan (im in NJ so hes somewhat popular here) and believed all those things like REAL ID and cameras on the street were only there to make you safer and since she doesnt break the law nobody should mind etc, etc etc. Now shes all for RP.. But dont think it didnt take awhile - it did.. most of the year... But she kinda came around on her own.. Shes intelligent and she knows to go to the internet to get the information she wants.

WHat was exceptionally satisfying was when she started watching debates (beginning of January)... she started asking me questions like "Why do they ignore Ron Paul?" or "Why do they ask him kooky questions?"

she had told me that last year when I would tell her how the media ignored RP she didnt believe me and thought I was just exaggerating, but now she sees it before I even do... Its pretty hard NOT to notice when there are only 4 people onstage..

[crazyfacedjenkins]

A lot of these war supporters are pussies who have never used a gun before, if this is the case just tell them to sign up to the military. Get the website up and tell them it's their patriotic duty. When they decline, which they will, it will be a little bit easier pushing Ron's antiwar message. For the psychos who like killing people, get them to sign up and hopefully they'll get their heads chopped off in Iraq.

[Captain Canuck]

I think it's because many of them have lost a loved one from the war and are unable to break from the kind of thinking where they beleive if they stop the war, their "child will have died in vain".
It's like you don't want to offend them but at the same time try to convince them, that we shouldn't be there. A very difficult task because there is so much emotion.

That's one dirty trick the neo-cons use isn't it? To say we would be leaving those soldiers down if we "cut and run" . It creates a situation where it makes it almost impossible, for us to argue withought coming off negative.

[MrZach]

Check out some of the links under the section in KnowBeforeYouVote.com (http://www.KnowBeforeYouVote.com/) for the *truth* on what an immediate withdrawal means in Iraq.

It is all under the section that reads:

SOURCES indicate that even though many Americans believe leaving Iraq in 6 months to 1 year would lead to chaos and make Iraqis angry with us, inciting more terrorism, THE MAJORITYOF IRAQIS disagree with this and want the U.S. out of Iraq IMMEDIATLY. Additionally, Iraqi leaders have been stating for over a year now that they are READY AND ABLE to take over security, but the U.S. refuses to let them and that the U.S. presence is the main contributing factor to the continued instability in the region.

[AlbemarleNC0003]

We do not need to be a Super-Power. We need to be Super-Free................ respect and admiration will follow.

I think others like me would be open to Ron Paul based on the principles above.

I've tried that angle to no avail. I'm surrounded by people who are terrified that the Islamofascists are going to move in tomorrow and declare Sharia Law. I even point out that our civil liberties are being taking away. I get labeled a conspiracy nut more than I get taken seriously. I never mention the CFR, NAU, or any of those groups that people have no idea about.

Apparently, winning in Iraq is more important than our rights and economy here at home.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

I've tried that angle to no avail. I'm surrounded by people who are terrified that the Islamofascists are going to move in tomorrow and declare Sharia Law. I even point out that our civil liberties are being taking away. I get labeled a conspiracy nut more than I get taken seriously. I never mention the CFR, NAU, or any of those groups that people have no idea about.

Apparently, winning in Iraq is more important than our rights and economy here at home.

Tell them to sign up to the military if they support it. When they don't, call them a pussy coward.

[Wyurm]

Yes, sort of. I can't take much of the credit since he used to live in Paul's district so he knows what kind of person Paul really is but wasn't going to vote for him untill he started hearing more and more about loss of civil liberties and the economy.

[AlbemarleNC0003]

Tell them to sign up to the military if they support it. When they don't, call them a pussy coward.

That only convinces them that I am a kook. Not even going to try that.

[ike]

Direct them to books by these people:
http://people.ronpaul2008.com/campaign-updates/2008/02/07/the-ron-paul-foreign-policy-team-expands/

The pre-eminent scholar on suicide terrorism has just joined the RP campaign.

[Libertytree]

When I talk with the pro war people I use the same tact as RP....We can end the war voluntarily or it will end anyway because we are bankrupt, we can't afford it! People respond when hearing "a trillion dollars borrowed from China to carry on the war". I also bring up the impending draft that will be instituted if these wars continue.

[Slugg]

I've converted several workmates that are pro-war. And the way I convenced them was by focusing on everything else. Everytime they said, "But he wants to leave Iraq." I responded with "So does Hillary and Obama....and only Ron can beat them." They never argued that point....ever. Eventually, and this took monthes, they said, "you know, you're right. Regardless of who gets elected, the war in Iraq is going to come to an end...so we're not taking the war into consideration for our votes anymore." And that, as they say, was that. They 'support' Ron Paul while they hold their noses....."He's better than everyone else" they now say.


But they think Newt would have been better.

[rexsolomon]

I always win that argument.
War against terrorists is fought with spies, and not the military.

I suggest you read the Art on War by Sun Tzu on the 'use of spies' - and keep in mind that the goal of studying the Art of War is to preserve and maintain peace.

Consider my avatar.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

That only convinces them that I am a kook. Not even going to try that.

HAHAHHAH, I guess that's why I hate America so much. For your own sanity may I suggest cutting off all ties with these people.

[cameronb]

Yes, I have. Several.

In my humble opinion a critical point of approach for many people can be focusing on the fact that conservatives have opposed interventionism, "we all railed against Clinton for it during his administration..Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti...conservatives in Congress pointed out how these things were unconstitutional - that was the conservative position."
But don't attack them by saying - you used to be believe this so you should believe it again. Instead, I approach more with the observation, like I'm sharing my thoughts, lamenting the thought that conservatives as a whole have been duped into changing their position to an unconstitutional one. It really makes people stop to think as opposed to getting defensive if they're questioned directly.

I've had people come back and point to 9/11 and how that changed things, and I respond with something along the lines of, "but did the world really fundamentally change? Is the world fundamentally really much more scary and dangerous than it was before 2001? wasn't there al queda and bin laden before 9/11? Didn't they believe in the same extreme form of islam back then? We were attacked by them previously, just not on the same scale -- WTC was attacked during Clinton, then there was USS Cole, and possibly even Oklahoma City, but conservatives still believed in the constitution. Even though Clinton wanted to send in troops to Somalia in part because it was a hotbed for terrorists, conservatives still stood by what was right -- saying that interventionism is wrong, nation building is wrong, and policing the world is NOT what we want to be doing. Heck, Bush campaigned specifically based on those conservative principles in 2000, and we supported him because of it!"

[wd4freedom]

I've tried that angle to no avail. I'm surrounded by people who are terrified that the Islamofascists are going to move in tomorrow and declare Sharia Law. I even point out that our civil liberties are being taking away. I get labeled a conspiracy nut more than I get taken seriously. I never mention the CFR, NAU, or any of those groups that people have no idea about.

Apparently, winning in Iraq is more important than our rights and economy here at home.


Remind them why Hitler was able to garner the public support that he did. He created a sense of fear throughout the German population. People motivated by fear perform acts that in hindsight are reprehensible to our sensibilities.

We must always be motivated by truth. Ask them what they believe their truth to be.

[wgadget]

My husband went and pulled the lever for Ron Paul even though he has some war issues. His decision was made by comparing him to the other bozos, and RP came out on top, war or no war.

Must be his honesty and stance on all the OTHER issues.

[AlbemarleNC0003]

I always win that argument.
War against terrorists is fought with spies, and not the military.

I suggest you read the Art on War by Sun Tzu on the 'use of spies' - and keep in mind that the goal of studying the Art of War is to preserve and maintain peace.

Consider my avatar.

I've been able to get them interested in the terrorist/pirate argument. But then they revert back to "we can't leave Iraq, it'll be chaos!" I remind them what Petraeus said in January, 6 more months to determine if we've made any gains and that the Iraqis are not coming together in Parliament. "But we can't surrender!" Who would we be surrendering to? Who will meet us to sign the treaties? "We are winning."

It's like whack-a-mole. Everytime they agree with something, they revert right back to where they were or they bring up the desire to end the IRS and call Paul delusioned.

[ARealConservative]

yes - plenty. Especially now that it is down to 2 liberals vs our guy.

If you sense they fear losing in the general - play that fear up.


"You hear Hillary blasting Bush's war all the time? Can you believe that? She voted for the war. It's too bad we don't force congress to declare war and stop playing politics with our troops lives!"

If they show any agreement - give them a copy of Ron Paul's bill calling on congress to take back responsibility for our goals in Iraq.

Next up, wonder aloud how crazy it is that we are spending a trillion annually on this war and still haven't shored up our own borders. "I wonder if politicians even care about our borders any more? Terrorism is so serious, how can we spend a trillion dollars to fight it and ignore our borders?"

Lastly - play up their sense of patriotism. We have the strongest military in the world. If we need to go to war in the ME, go and win. Those people are irrational though, they see us rebuilding their countries after the war as a sign of weakness. A better policy is to win the war and get out - allowing them to lick their wounds and think twice about crossing us again. Not only is this the best policy to deal with their irrational beliefs, but it will help stop the bleeding in our own economy.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Yes, I have. Several.

In my humble opinion a critical point of approach for many people can be focusing on the fact that conservatives have opposed interventionism, "we all railed against Clinton for it during his administration..Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti...conservatives in Congress pointed out how these things were unconstitutional - that was the conservative position."
But don't attack them by saying - you used to be believe this so you should believe it again. Instead, I approach more with the observation, like I'm sharing my thoughts, lamenting the thought that conservatives as a whole have been duped into changing their position to an unconstitutional one. It really makes people stop to think as opposed to getting defensive if they're questioned directly.

I've had people come back and point to 9/11 and how that changed things, and I respond with something along the lines of, "but did the world really fundamentally change? Is the world fundamentally really much more scary and dangerous than it was before 2001? wasn't there al queda and bin laden before 9/11? Didn't they believe in the same extreme form of islam back then? We were attacked by them previously, just not on the same scale -- WTC was attacked during Clinton, then there was USS Cole, and possibly even Oklahoma City, but conservatives still believed in the constitution. Even though Clinton wanted to send in troops to Somalia in part because it was a hotbed for terrorists, conservatives still stood by what was right -- saying that interventionism is wrong, nation building is wrong, and policing the world is NOT what we want to be doing. Heck, Bush campaigned specifically based on those conservative principles in 2000, and we supported him because of it!"

The Oklahoma City is a good example because it was Timothy McVeigh and not an Islamist.

[AlbemarleNC0003]

Thanks everybody. I'm still not confident we can sway the pro-war people. I've posted pieces from Reagan speeches to remind them that even Reagan was against endless wars. I'll keep plugging along using your suggestions.

[acptulsa]

A lot of these war supporters are pussies who have never used a gun before, if this is the case just tell them to sign up to the military. Get the website up and tell them it's their patriotic duty. When they decline, which they will, it will be a little bit easier pushing Ron's antiwar message. For the psychos who like killing people, get them to sign up and hopefully they'll get their heads chopped off in Iraq.

One thing here I completely disagree with. They have guns. They love their guns. You want to make sure the war supporter you're dealing with doesn't vote for McCain, educate this person on McCain's stance on gun control.

[cameronb]

crazyfacedjenkins --
Timothy McVeigh and not an islamist? Wise up. There's evidence that Mohammed Atta and Mossaoui were involved with that. Whether as "islamists" in an act of terrorism a la 9/11, or as used by others, I don't know, but the lone wolf story was only bought by the purest of sheeple....

[rexsolomon]

I've been able to get them interested in the terrorist/pirate argument. But then they revert back to "we can't leave Iraq, it'll be chaos!" I remind them what Petraeus said in January, 6 more months to determine if we've made any gains and that the Iraqis are not coming together in Parliament. "But we can't surrender!" Who would we be surrendering to? Who will meet us to sign the treaties? "We are winning."

It's like whack-a-mole. Everytime they agree with something, they revert right back to where they were or they bring up the desire to end the IRS and call Paul delusioned.

Surrender what? Iraq is not our territory. Ask that person if he or she considers Iraq and Iraqi oil now as American property.

Ask them if 4000 dead American soldiers in a war lasting longer than Vietnam is considered by that person as 'winning'. Seriously.

You can't change closed minds. Drop the argument.

The only way to do that is by a tangible example. That's why Dr. Paul and his followers should all move to the state where he garnered the most votes and make it prosperous and peaceful - while all other states flounder in the recession.

Then and ONLY THEN will the rest of America listen.

[jblosser]

We convert them all the time down here.

0) Never ever argue with them about whether there is a threat we have to fight, why they attack us, any of that. Never. Give it to them as a for granted that there is a threat and we have to kill a lot of people to remove it. That's not the argument you're going to win with them.

1) The economic argument is key. Ron Paul is one of the strongest advocates of American defense in Congress (per Reagan). He wants to defend this country absolutely, but we have to do it in a way we can sustain, and this isn't. Ask them if they know how we are paying for this war. Most will tell you it's tax dollars. Let them know it's NOT, and we are borrowing the money from countries like China and Libya. China and Osama paid attention when we took down the Soviets (with Osama's help), and they are not doing the same thing to us. They are leading us by the nose to bankruptcy, and we are following right along. Ron's CPAC speech NAILED this, by the way.

2) For those convinced we have to "fight them there", point out that isn't up to us. We are fighting a group that's already shown a will and ability to strike us when and where we don't expect it. If they choose to attack us here now, who is going to stop them? With our military, or national guard, and our BORDER PATROL over there? This argument has been known to convert pro-war people to sign-waving Ron Paul people in 30 minutes at a sidewalk sign wave.

3) For those convinced there will be chaos and we "owe them": we aren't making it any better over there right now. And the conservative position is and always is that government doesn't make things better. War and defense are the role of government, but that's not what we're doing there. That mission was accomplished. Now we're doing nation building, and we don't do it well. Americans that want to respond to the need there can do so but it's no more the conservative position that the government should do that than it is that the government should do education, health care, etc. "There will be chaos" is the same as "think of the children that will fall through the cracks without welfare".

4) If they think we are winning and the surge is working, tell them you hope they are right. Tell them you aren't sure, though, because in reality most of the casualties declined a few months after the surge started, immediately after the al-Sadr ceasefire started. That ceasefire is due to expire at the end of this month. Hopefully it's the surge that really did it and not the ceasefire, because otherwise there is going to be a new bloodbath very very soon.

5) If they insist on arguing about why we were attacked, etc., clarify for them that yes, Ron Paul believes there is a threat, and continually proposes and votes for legislation to deal with the actual threat. The argument is not that there are NO crazy people that hate us for our freedoms. The argument is that without our help those guys are basically crazy people yelling in the town square. It's only when we go over there and start bombing them that the crowds get motivated to become suicide bombers, plane hijackers, etc. The data is clear on this. Ron also nailed this one at CPAC with his line that OBL doesn't need to come over here, we're doing his job for him by going over there.

[billjarrett]

I guess it depends on who you are talking to. Alot of the pro-war people I know are also long time conservatives. They are also fiscal conservatives.

I've converted people over using:
1. If you're a fiscal conservative, how can you agree with spending this much money while we're going bankrupt.
2. The line that Dr. Paul uses about war being the Democrats business, and that we were always the war stoppers (Korea,Vietnam)
3. The fact that almost no conservative will argue that our military was very strong under Reagan, and yet Reagan didn't have to go around preemptively striking anyone who looked at him funny. Although Roosevelt isn't the most popular Republican figure, most conservatives will agree with "Speak softly and carry a big stick".

[thehittgirl]

I had a friend watch a DVD I put together. As soon as she saw the clip of Rumsfeld, Bush and Cheney guilty of what the were being accused of, she called her husband over to watch it.

I convinced her the war was wrong. Unfortunately, she found out at the poll that she was a registered democrat and couldn't vote for Ron Paul. She evidently had forgotten to switch.

[rg123]

I have convinced many. I usually show them propaganda videos and then
I show them graphics of children with their leggs or arms blowen off their bodies
and tell them this is what awaits their children if they are drafted in the future it is especially helpful if their children are at home. I strongly feel because the MSM does not show the victims of the war that the country as a whole do not even see it. When people are sitting at their dinner table they are not thinking about the 1 million women and children that we have either blowen them to smitheriens or
all the ones who have died of starvation. The number one issue is the WAR it is why you dont see the body bags on TV. Because if the people seen the horror they would be storming DC like in the 60's. The campaign has dropped the ball on this issue. They should be showing the horror of the WAR in ads. If people are offended by it then they should blame the people who put them there as Ron has said but time is running out and it wont be showen unless the grassroots does it.
I cannot create videos I'm old and not teck savey but many in here could. When a person sees a child with his FACE BLOWEN OFF it does something to you and you are never the same again and this is where we can get the most votes. Ron is the only candidate in both parties who will stop the war.

[hawks4ronpaul]

"Today’s globalist interventionism and nation-building take all the worst aspects of the welfare state and magnify them at the global scale."

"We look weak and foolish to let a few cave-dwelling jihadists tie up our aircraft carriers and infantry divisions."

Like the Soviets, "Our mighty American Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers will turn to rusting hulks if we continue to ignore our finances."

Much more at http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

[emilysdad]

here is my story.

My younger brother, 46, 6 figure salary, all the toys, big house and compete R. He gets his info from talk radio because he is in his car 2-4 hours a day on average, sometimes longer. Loves to hate on liberals, blames them for everything wrong with the country.

In May, I turned him on to Ron Paul right after the first debate. "I disagree with his foriegn policy, he is an isolationist." Basically, parroting MSM. In May, he was a Rudy supporter with some reservation. In July, he was hoping Newt would enter the race. In September, he was a Thompson supporter. We stopped talking at that point about politics because he can not get past the war mentality.

He called me half way through the last debate and asked quite smuggly, "so who is gonna drop out next Huckabee or Paul and who will they endorse." Needless to say, he heard an earful. I reminded him of his support over the past several months and then said, "so let me guess, now you are a McCain supporter." He replied, "no I hate McCain, (talk radio!!) and I am voting for Mitt Romney." I basically told him, he does not know what he supports and will vote for who the T.V. tells him too. We hung up on bad vibes.

Hmm, wonder who he is voting for now?

My point is this. There are going to be many, like my little bro, who will end up voting for their second, third, forth and in some cases fifth choice. This basically tells me a couple things. They are extremely uniformed and can't make their own choices. They are party loyalists and will vote for the party, regardless. The funny thing is, my brother agrees with everything Ron Paul, except the "war" (occupation).

During our phone call, I laughed at him because he is so into the liberal vs conservative game, yet he is throwing his support at a RINO. I just can't imagine how he could even now support McCain, the least convservative of all original eleven candidates. My brother, like many die hards are stuck between a rock and a hard place. McCain, Huck or Paul. Hmm, the conservative choice is obvious, but I suspect these people will rationlize and justify a McCain vote.

Take pride in knowing you all have done your research, form your own opinions and throw your support 100% behind your candidate, while these others will have to keep shifting their support to whoever is the annoited choice.

[rg123]

here is my story.

My younger brother, 46, 6 figure salary, all the toys, big house and compete R. He gets his info from talk radio because he is in his car 2-4 hours a day on average, sometimes longer. Loves to hate on liberals, blames them for everything wrong with the country.

In May, I turned him on to Ron Paul right after the first debate. "I disagree with his foriegn policy, he is an isolationist." Basically, parroting MSM. In May, he was a Rudy supporter with some reservation. In July, he was hoping Newt would enter the race. In September, he was a Thompson supporter. We stopped talking at that point about politics because he can not get past the war mentality.

He called me half way through the last debate and asked quite smuggly, "so who is gonna drop out next Huckabee or Paul and who will they endorse." Needless to say, he heard an earful. I reminded him of his support over the past several months and then said, "so let me guess, now you are a McCain supporter." He replied, "no I hate McCain, (talk radio!!) and I am voting for Mitt Romney." I basically told him, he does not know what he supports and will vote for who the T.V. tells him too. We hung up on bad vibes.

Hmm, wonder who he is voting for now?

My point is this. There are going to be many, like my little bro, who will end up voting for their second, third, forth and in some cases fifth choice. This basically tells me a couple things. They are extremely uniformed and can't make their own choices. They are party loyalists and will vote for the party, regardless. The funny thing is, my brother agrees with everything Ron Paul, except the "war" (occupation).

During our phone call, I laughed at him because he is so into the liberal vs conservative game, yet he is throwing his support at a RINO. I just can't imagine how he could even now support McCain, the least convservative of all original eleven candidates. My brother, like many die hards are stuck between a rock and a hard place. McCain, Huck or Paul. Hmm, the conservative choice is obvious, but I suspect these people will rationlize and justify a McCain vote.

Take pride in knowing you all have done your research, form your own opinions and throw your support 100% behind your candidate, while these others will have to keep shifting their support to whoever is the annoited choice.

This is why I referenced the war have you showed him the horror of the war yet.
I do not see Jihadist outside my window. I see illegal Guatemalans. Does he have have children that could be drafted. How old is is wife if she is under 40 she could be drafted. McCain called for the draft the other day and Hillary is looking for mandatory military service. If he is radio brainwashed you could maybe show him which border is more important to him. The borders in Iraq or the Borders in the United States.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

crazyfacedjenkins --
Timothy McVeigh and not an islamist? Wise up. There's evidence that Mohammed Atta and Mossaoui were involved with that. Whether as "islamists" in an act of terrorism a la 9/11, or as used by others, I don't know, but the lone wolf story was only bought by the purest of sheeple....

Ok then Theodore Kaczynski, my point is that it's a white American and not "one of dem dere brown people."

[crazyfacedjenkins]

One thing here I completely disagree with. They have guns. They love their guns. You want to make sure the war supporter you're dealing with doesn't vote for McCain, educate this person on McCain's stance on gun control.

I live in NJ, so the vast majority here don't have guns. It's illegal to have an "imitation firearm" (ie nurf gun). You are right though about the others.

[EotS]

I have a good friend I'm working on, I think I almost have him rethinking the whole thing.

There are a few really good interviews on Antiwar Radio with Scott Horton that I'd recommend you share with your friends. It wil take 1/2 hour to an hour of their time, but you must stress how important it is to listen to these experts.

Audio #1: Dr. Michael Scheuer was the head of the CIA’s Bin Laden unit for 14 years. He is one of the world’s foremost experts on terrorism.

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/05/19/former-head-of-cias-osama-unit-backs-up-rep-ron-paul

Audio #2: Robert Pape is the leading expert on the topic of suicide terrorism – what is it that motivates someone not only to attack, but to sacrifice themselves in a suicide attack? Dr. Pape is the top consultant to the government on these matters – when they want to understand why people are willing to kill themselves to kill others, they go to him.


http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/06/01/robert-a-pape/

Really, really good stuff here. Urge your friends to listen.

[Pete]

I used to be for the war, even down to believing that WMDs had been trucked off to Syria by the Russians.

Here's what changed my opinion, keeping in mind that RP had already won me over by his fiscal and monetary conservatism:

1. Reading his "Questions that Won't be Asked about Iraq", that demonstrated to me that he knew his stuff: http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm

2. Putting 2 + 2 together with the NAU, Bush's embrace of illegal immigration, and open borders. Who ever heard of a war with open borders?

3. The democratically elected government of Iraq has asked us to leave - twice.

4. There were no Islamofascists under my bed.


The open border point is an especially good one. I was telling an evangelical Christian type about RP the other day, and you could see his mind click when I mentioned it.

[NoPants]

I guess you could say I was a war supporter before I got a Dr. Paul addiction. I didn't really understand the war before, and it was one of the things I didn't agree with him on. I also bought into the "If you don't support the war your not a good American" propaganda. Yes, I have brought shame to my family *preparations for hara-kiri occurring in background* but did see the light eventually. It took about 3 months for the full metamorphosis to occur. Now I'm a beautiful butterfly.

[emilysdad]

This is why I referenced the war have you showed him the horror of the war yet.
I do not see Jihadist outside my window. I see illegal Guatemalans. Does he have have children that could be drafted. How old is is wife if she is under 40 she could be drafted. McCain called for the draft the other day and Hillary is looking for mandatory military service. If he is radio brainwashed you could maybe show him which border is more important to him. The borders in Iraq or the Borders in the United States.

Yeah, I kinda got off topic, sorry. I have given him everything I know, the patriot act, military commissions, hr 1955, nspd51 and the draft act hr393, to absolutely no avail. I have sent him video's, but he never watches them. He is an imperialist, believes it in his heart. Yes, he has three sons 15yr,17, 19.

My brother is not the only one. Our group had farmers market booth for 6 months and we talked to thousands of people. The "war" issue was the most common negative.

I have found no answer. I suspect these kind of people will just have to stumble across the answer on their own, I know many who have.

[slantedview]

what ironic is war supporters won't vote for paul, but anti-war folks stupidly vote for mccain.

[teshuah]

yes, but he's a very conservative cop who is motivated by the fear of the impending police state.

[theantirobot]

I did. I worked with the guy. Everyday we'd talk. Eventually I got him by telling him that the Iraqis were not going to stop fighting us. If there were two groups of Iraqis fighting for power they will continue to fight, because as long as we are there, neither has power. The sooner we leave the sooner they can figure it out themselves.

[mconder]

No, but I know most of the anti-war vote is going to McCain.

[hawks4ronpaul]

I live in NJ, so the vast majority here don't have guns. It's illegal to have an "imitation firearm" (ie nurf gun). You are right though about the others.

States like NJ are likely to vote Democrat in November anyway, although they matter for primaries.

http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

[emilysdad]

what ironic is war supporters won't vote for paul, but anti-war folks stupidly vote for mccain.

ad the irony amnesty supporters won't vote for Paul, but anti amnesty supporters vote for McCain.

irony + irony = ignorance, stupidity or voter fraud

[steph3n]

I've tried. I haven't been able to convince any to vote for Ron Paul. I thought I had a couple almost there until the McCain CPAC speech. Any advice from anyone that's been successful would be greatly appreciated.

yes, my dad :D

[qh4dotcom]

I think it's because many of them have lost a loved one from the war and are unable to break from the kind of thinking where they beleive if they stop the war, their "child will have died in vain".
It's like you don't want to offend them but at the same time try to convince them, that we shouldn't be there. A very difficult task because there is so much emotion.

That's one dirty trick the neo-cons use isn't it? To say we would be leaving those soldiers down if we "cut and run" . It creates a situation where it makes it almost impossible, for us to argue withought coming off negative.

4,000 have died in the war...if you multiply that by the average of family members who share your point of view....it's nowhere near the millions of war supporters.

[crazyfacedjenkins]

States like NJ are likely to vote Democrat in November anyway (sorry, nothing personal).

They matter for primaries though.

http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/

NJ is such a dump, I'm only sticking around because I have a decent job. When I get a bit more experience on my resume I'm getting the hell out of here. I have to say, this is by far the ugliest, filthiest, shittiest state I've ever been to. Not to mention the people here definitely take the cake when it comes to being selfish and ignorant.

[durden0]

I've tried. I haven't been able to convince any to vote for Ron Paul. I thought I had a couple almost there until the McCain CPAC speech. Any advice from anyone that's been successful would be greatly appreciated.

I was a war supporter previously. But my support was based on the idea that America could own and operate an empire, not from fear of terrorists. I had no illusions that we were in danger, and fully understood the reasons they attack us. The thing that convinced me was the money issue. I no longer believe we can sustain an empire in it's current model. I have also since joining the revolution, realized my errors in thinking this way based on the founder's wise advise and the constitution. As Ron says, freedom and democracy can not be delivered through the barrel of a gun. There are much better ways to spread peace then wars.

[steph3n]

I was a war supporter previously. But my support was based on the idea that America could own and operate an empire, not from fear of terrorists. I had no illusions that we were in danger, and fully understood the reasons they attack us. The thing that convinced me was the money issue. I no longer believe we can sustain an empire in it's current model. I have also since joining the revolution, realized my errors in thinking this way based on the founder's wise advise and the constitution. As Ron says, freedom and democracy can not be delivered through the barrel of a gun. There are much better ways to spread peace then wars.

sound like me back in August :D

[tonyr1988]

My dad was (and still is) a supporter of the Iraqi war. He's not a huge "Stay the Course, ya dirty hippies!" guy, but he thinks we should stay for a while.

I've been pounding Ron Paul into his head for close to a year now. He has never voted in a primary or cared about them. His mantra was "I let the two teams decide, and I choose between them." He voted this year, for Paul. Originally, he said "Well, I guess I'll vote for Ron Paul this year, since you've been working so hard for it." (I didn't complain - that's a vote! :D).

But, ever since a few days ago, he's been getting more excited about the message. He's checking out the official site, the YouTubes, etc. He told my grandma the other day (who voted for Romney so that McCain wouldn't win *rolls eyes*), "I think we kinda messed up for not paying attention to this Paul guy earlier - he seems like the only real conservative."

Sorry, I'm a little long-winded. I'll wrap it up.

What was the biggest thing that gave him an epiphany? He heard a RP radio ad, and was absolutely amazed that, in 20 years in Congress, he didn't once vote for a tax increase. It was that simple. :) I know I had told him that before, but I think it took a while to sink in how awesome that it.

So keep pounding Paul into people (respectfully :D).

[crazyfacedjenkins]

My dad was (and still is) a supporter of the Iraqi war. He's not a huge "Stay the Course, ya dirty hippies!" guy, but he thinks we should stay for a while.

I've been pounding Ron Paul into his head for close to a year now. He has never voted in a primary or cared about them. His mantra was "I let the two teams decide, and I choose between them." He voted this year, for Paul. Originally, he said "Well, I guess I'll vote for Ron Paul this year, since you've been working so hard for it." (I didn't complain - that's a vote! :D).

But, ever since a few days ago, he's been getting more excited about the message. He's checking out the official site, the YouTubes, etc. He told my grandma the other day (who voted for Romney so that McCain wouldn't win *rolls eyes*), "I think we kinda messed up for not paying attention to this Paul guy earlier - he seems like the only real conservative."

Sorry, I'm a little long-winded. I'll wrap it up.

What was the biggest thing that gave him an epiphany? He heard a RP radio ad, and was absolutely amazed that, in 20 years in Congress, he didn't once vote for a tax increase. It was that simple. :) I know I had told him that before, but I think it took a while to sink in how awesome that it.

So keep pounding Paul into people (respectfully :D).

I do hate when people vote before they research, but I got to say it sounds like you are doing your part. Keep up the good work.

[Vendico]

Ron Paul convinced me to change my mind.
And the primary reason that I changed my views, was Ron Paul's principled arguments for :
"Declaring War"
"Not going to war under UN"
Strong Defense, not Offense
We are not able to afford this war
The issue is about Foreign Policy, not about war verse anti-war.



I am very pro-military, ex Navy, currently work in an industry supporting National defense and security, etc, etc. I bought into the neo-con reasoning because of my pro-military disposition. Ron Paul's arguments really awakended me and it was a moment of true transformation. We do not need to be a Super-Power. We need to be Super-Free................ respect and admiration will follow.

I think others like me would be open to Ron Paul based on the principles above.

good post

[Crickett]

I've tried that angle to no avail. I'm surrounded by people who are terrified that the Islamofascists are going to move in tomorrow and declare Sharia Law. I even point out that our civil liberties are being taking away. I get labeled a conspiracy nut more than I get taken seriously. I never mention the CFR, NAU, or any of those groups that people have no idea about.

Apparently, winning in Iraq is more important than our rights and economy here at home.

First, they have to KNOW that the terrorists did NOT come from Iraq! They do not really believe this as the MSM has numbed their minds that all "those" people are BAD. Are they hating a race like Hitler did with the innocent Jews? Do they want many of their own neighbors executed because they COULD maybe murder someone some day? Then, you have to make them understand WHY terrorists would come here. The whole "they come here because we are free and prosperous" will not ring true to even them if they say it out loud.

[kgiese]

I am a veteran of the Gulf War. I fully support Ron Paul. I just hope he isn't a quitter. The reason I signed up for the military was to fight for freedom. The problem is that when I got home I found there were more problems in America, then out in the rest of the world. America needs to lead by example. Remove the plank from your own eye, so that you may better see to remove the sliver from your neighbor. America is made up of many races, religions, and ideas. People can agree to disagree.

I don't know how anyone can talk about crazy things and not sound crazy, but here it goes:

More Americans have died in America, then all the troops, since the beginning of the Gulf War. Here are two articles for consideration:
http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/08/murder-city-danger-forbeslife-cx_de_1108murder.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/14/0412/54253

I don't know the answers to all these questions, but you should be finding the answers.
What is the cause of so much violence at home?
Which causes more deaths, marijuana overdoses or cars? Why were Levi's jeans first made with hemp? How much stronger is hemp than cotton. Which would you want?
When were there the most gun related deaths with alcohol?
How much of your tax dollar goes to pay for the war on drugs?
How much tax revenue is generated by the sale of illegal drugs in America?
What happens to a cities crime rate when a prison is built there?
How many prisons are added in America each year?
What is your average life expectancy?
Why can't you own property in America and not be taxed to live there? or why can't you pay off your property?
What is inflation?
How many different types of taxes are you forced to pay?
What percentage of your pay goes to taxes? At what percentage of pay was the Boston Tea Party held?
If disease and traffic deaths account for most of the loss of life in America, then why is all the money spent on war and not safer transportation, see SuperTrains (ICE train), or prevention and cures of diseases.
What does America stand for? What scientific proof do you have to offer to support this?
How does Amersterdam maintain a lower crime rate than America while making cocaine and heroin as common as a beer in America?
Why is Switzerland safer than America, if they issue all males living there an assault rifle to form a national militia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
Why do American automobiles get the same gas mileage they got in the 70's?
Why aren't innovative new ideas given more funding? Where does your money go, 401k?
What is a fuel cell? Teslamotors.com
What is a high-speed rail? How many people ride them? How safe are they?
How does my local education system compare to other schools in my state? nation? world?
Why doesn't the United States have a Nationally accepted four year college curriculum?

What is psyops? Is it used on Americans?
What medical effects do radio frequencies have on the body?
On politicians that say to get a job: It is your job to make sure there are good jobs available. You are paid from taxes. Taxes are paid by people with good jobs. Better jobs means more money in your pocket. How would you earn a living, if it weren't off of someone elses labor? What does Politics stand for in Latin?

Spying on Americans: If you aren't doing anything wrong, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. What were the jews, blacks, and gays doing wrong in Germany? Who else was targeted during that time?

Why would you build a freeway and put a stop sign on it? How much time is wasted waiting in line at toll boths each day? What is the amount of extra fuel required to stop and wait on the freeway? Why don't they build roads instead of tolls? Why don't they create smaller vehicles, or super trains, or spend money for a new idea all together?

In our education system we are taught to answer questions. Maybe we should spend a little more time learning to ask some questions.

What you don't know can hurt you. There are some great things going on outside of America. Incorporating them into the American way of life is what makes America great.

[Vendico]

I've been able to get them interested in the terrorist/pirate argument. But then they revert back to "we can't leave Iraq, it'll be chaos!" I remind them what Petraeus said in January, 6 more months to determine if we've made any gains and that the Iraqis are not coming together in Parliament. "But we can't surrender!" Who would we be surrendering to? Who will meet us to sign the treaties? "We are winning."

It's like whack-a-mole. Everytime they agree with something, they revert right back to where they were or they bring up the desire to end the IRS and call Paul delusioned.

keep working on them. Send them a bunch of videos. They'll watch those over reading.

[Xenophage]

I actually supported the Iraqi invasion when we first went in... I was duped about the weapons of mass destruction thing, and duped into believing that Saddam had something to do with propping up the terrorists.

I later felt the Iraq invasion was a mistake, but that we needed to stay and clean up our mess, and make sure things weren't going to deteriorate.

Now, I believe strongly that staying in Iraq or involving ourselves at all in the middle eastern political scheme is simply counter-productive. Ron Paul opened my mind to this possibility, and I was then convinced quite well by him and others.

I'll always be more critical of any decision to go to war in the future, and especially hostile to any entertainment of preemptive war.

[qh4dotcom]

I actually supported the Iraqi invasion when we first went in... I was duped about the weapons of mass destruction thing, and duped into believing that Saddam had something to do with propping up the terrorists.

I later felt the Iraq invasion was a mistake, but that we needed to stay and clean up our mess, and make sure things weren't going to deteriorate.

Now, I believe strongly that staying in Iraq or involving ourselves at all in the middle eastern political scheme is simply counter-productive. Ron Paul opened my mind to this possibility, and I was then convinced quite well by him and others.

I'll always be more critical of any decision to go to war in the future, and especially hostile to any entertainment of preemptive war.

I did not believe the weapons of mass destruction thing from the beginning.

Why? Because Saddam is like Fidel Castro...as long as Castro minds his own business and does not threaten the security of the US he gets to stay in power.

Saddam was minding his own business before George Bush came to power. I could not see Saddam doing something so stupid as to risk losing his extravagant lifestyle.

[markj]

Man some people are absolutely obsessed with war and acting like scared little sheep when it comes to the boogeyman terrorists that the government has propped up as the defined enemy of all the people!

It's surreal watching people react to propaganda.

[Bilgefisher]

I actually disagree with Ron Paul's stance to immediately withdraw troops. I think it leaves a power vacuum. So why do I fully support Ron Paul even though I disagree with this very important topic, because I agree with almost every thing else he says. I took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the US. He is the only candidate that does the same. For once in my lifetime, we have a candidate that is honest and has integrity and actually does what he says. Even though I disagree on one subject, I can confidently say in this election that I am not voting for the lesser of two evils.

[Alawn]

Tell them that even if we were justified to go in there because Saddam was evil the war was over when he was captured and all we are doing is welfare for Iraq.

[kgiese]

Would America be free without a military?
Would there be a United States without War?
What happened to the American Indian?
How do goods and services safely ship across the ocean?
How did International Communications come into place?
When wasn't there war in the world?
Who will stand up for the weak?

I am a veteran and I don't agree with your choice of words, but you have the right to cuss in this country. There are many jobs in the military including mail clerk, doctor, nurse, chaplain, engineer, and thousands of other titles. Most of the military are never even given a weapon. The military is an integral and necessary part of daily living in the United States. A strong America is a free America. The military as a whole can be viewed as a loaded gun. Sitting on a shelf it will do no harm. In the wrong hands it will do plenty. I don't know about you, but most people would want the advantage in a fight, and not a fair fight. Maybe, you should look at the number of American casualties verses the number of Arab casualties. The death toll might support this thinking. I don't want to be the one to have a knife when an intruder breaks into my home with a gun. I also don't want to be the one to have to use violence, but I will defend myself and others with the inability to do so. Please, take the name calling out of your message as it does not speak well of you. I am sure you are a better person than that.

[AlbemarleNC0003]

I actually disagree with Ron Paul's stance to immediately withdraw troops. I think it leaves a power vacuum. So why do I fully support Ron Paul even though I disagree with this very important topic, because I agree with almost every thing else he says. I took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the US. He is the only candidate that does the same. For once in my lifetime, we have a candidate that is honest and has integrity and actually does what he says. Even though I disagree on one subject, I can confidently say in this election that I am not voting for the lesser of two evils.

I disagree with him on a few things too. But then again, I think the Constitution needs some updating. I just see the war stance being our biggest hurdle. If not for that, he'd win by a landslide.

[amonasro]

I've had good luck converting war supporters with the economy. Bring some real numbers into the conversation. Most people don't really understand how it all works, if you can spell it out for them and explan what dire straights we're in, then you can start to win them over.

[Xenophage]

I actually disagree with Ron Paul's stance to immediately withdraw troops. I think it leaves a power vacuum. So why do I fully support Ron Paul even though I disagree with this very important topic, because I agree with almost every thing else he says. I took an oath to support and defend the constitution of the US. He is the only candidate that does the same. For once in my lifetime, we have a candidate that is honest and has integrity and actually does what he says. Even though I disagree on one subject, I can confidently say in this election that I am not voting for the lesser of two evils.

I believe that as soon as we leave, no matter what we've done before that time, the situation in Iraq will get worse for the Iraqis. There will be a power vacuum, because we're the military power there now. The only way to avoid that is to stay there indefinitely, as McCain has proposed.

The Iraqis need to deal with this themselves, however. They need to be forced to accept responsibility for their own governance or they'll never do it. Quite likely they will elect another strong arm dictator who promises to quell violence in their country, or they'll allow a religious sect to take control. Their society is not one destined for freedom, and there's nothing we can do to make it that way except through setting good example (the only way we've successfully spread democracy anywhere).

Meanwhile, the longer we stay in Iraq, the worse our own problems get. We go broke while the terrorists grow emboldened. We lose international support while the terrorists gain it. Our military wearies while the terrorists recruit more.

The occupation of Iraq is just more fodder to fuel the flames of hatred in the middle east.