Marshall Plan

[alexlcameron]

I am trying to convert my friend who is extremly politically active to the campaign. He had a masters in history from Nottingham so its kinda hard for me... I showed him the interview with Dr. Paul from Human Events. My friend disagrees with Dr. Paul.


http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21840
HE: You don’t think we should work with enemies of their regime to see that it’s overthrown -- to his regime?

RP: No, I do not. To me, if you overthrow a regime it’s an act of war, and it backfires on us. It has never served us well over the last 100 years. It’s sort of like what we did with 1953 by installing the Shah. We worked with the regime, we worked the British then, and we’re still suffering the consequences…

My friend cites the Marshall Plan as a interventionist success in addition he blames Carter for letting the revolution take place in Iran in 79 and feels that it was in America and Britans "interest" to install the Shah in 53..... I can kinda refute the Iranian coup however I am having trouble debating the Marshall Plan... Any help or historical insight is appreciated...

[Bradley in DC]

My friend cites the Marshall Plan as a interventionist success in addition he blames Carter for letting the revolution take place in Iran in 79 and feels that it was in America and Britans "interest" to install the Shah in 53..... I can kinda refute the Iranian coup however I am having trouble debating the Marshall Plan... Any help or historical insight is appreciated...

I don't have them at my fingertips, but studies have shown that non-Commie countries that didn't get aid grow faster than those that did. The Marshall plan aid also gave us the mob in southern Italy.

Quick Google search:

http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=120&sortorder=articledate

[alexlcameron]

Thasnks Bradley! Any more advice/help??

[akovacs]

The communist countries grew faster because the Soviet Union was pretty much building their entire infrastructure. They got way more aid. It was the same way for North and South Korea. It's also easy to build an economy quickly when you have guns pointed at the general population.

I don't know much about the Marshall plan (Certainly not enough to argue for or against it). I think there was an important distinction though: We were at war with Europe, and then after we defeated the enemies, we helped get their infrastructure back up. In Iran, we did not declare war, or even make it publicly known what we did until decades later.

If you're attacked and declare war, intervention is acceptable after that point. If you're secretly doing regime change for your (Or in this case, the oil company's) interest, intervention is not acceptable.

[akovacs]

I take that back, according to the wikipedia article, the eastern block didn't get much of anything, but were as more of a source of income and resources for the soviet union (Basically pillaging it for everything it was worth).

There were other countries that didn't get aid that did get back on track after a short while though: Japan and Hong Kong are examples.

[shadowhooch]

Thasnks Bradley! Any more advice/help??

That is going to be a long, hard, and tough sell. I'm having the same struggles with my dad. Good luck! :o

[lucius]

I am trying to convert my friend who is extremly politically active to the campaign. He had a masters in history from Nottingham so its kinda hard for me... I showed him the interview with Dr. Paul from Human Events. My friend disagrees with Dr. Paul.


My friend cites the Marshall Plan as a interventionist success in addition he blames Carter for letting the revolution take place in Iran in 79 and feels that it was in America and Britans "interest" to install the Shah in 53..... I can kinda refute the Iranian coup however I am having trouble debating the Marshall Plan... Any help or historical insight is appreciated...

You friend is heavily inculcated from the ivory tower. I would say, "Here is an alternative message, you maybe ready for it later?'' and head down the road to an easier convert. Sometimes, you have to let friends and family be. But if you want he/she to come around, it may require much background information. Here is a start on a potential reading list for your friend,

Scott’s Life of Napoleon by Sir Walter Scott

Geneva versus Peace by Saint-Aulaire

The Patton Papers 1885-1940 & 1940-1945 by Blumenson

Germany’s Master Plan by Joseph Borkin

The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben by Joseph Borken

From Major Jordan’s Diaries by George Jordan

Sutton’s books and trilogy,

To download Sutton's books:

Wall Street And The Bolshevik Revolution: http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...ion/index.html

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler: http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...eet/index.html

The Best Enemy Money Can Buy: http://www.reformed-theology.org/htm...emy/index.html

National Suicide: Military Aid to the Soviet Union (1973)

Sutton was at the Hoover Institution when he published his trilogy on the USSR, about how the West sold it technology, knowing that the USSR used it for its own civilian and military projects:

Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1917 to 1930
Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1930 to 1945
Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1945 to 1965

Tragedy & Hope by Carroll Quigley (Make sure it’s a reprint of 1st edition)

October Surprise: America's Hostages in Iran and the Election of Ronald Reagan by Gary Sick

Fire In The Minds Of Men by James Billington

The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror by David Hoffman

The Creature form Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin

Treason: The New World Order by Gurudas

The Underground History of American Education by John Gatto

The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski

The Globalization of Poverty and the New World Order by Michel Chossudovsky

Read these and WW1, New Deal, WW2, cold war etc. to present takes on a whole new meaning.

He may start believing like Gurudas,

“All these people say there are powerful groups threatening our way of life. Some sources identify the bankers and corporate elite as the source of our problems, while others feel the national security state is the threat. The power of Wall Street is now obvious to many. So much is happening today that it is increasingly clear a police state is no longer some distant event to fear. The American people must awaken and join together to restore constitutional government and diminish the power of the large corporations and their agent, the federal government, so that we can again be a free people.”

Dr. Paul then becomes the ONLY choice in 2008.

[Bradley in DC]

Thasnks Bradley! Any more advice/help??

You know that the German "economic miracle" was Austrian economics in practice, right?

Ludwig Earhard, whose 'bonfire of controls' ignited the German economic reconstruction one Sunday afternoon in the late 1940s, attended the second meeting of the Mont Pelerin Society. His chief economic advisor, Walter Eucken, was also a society member and later helped Hayek secure his position at Freiburg. Röpke, another Mont Pelerin member, had advised Earhard to abolish the Allied-imposed controls in 1948. After the controls were lifted, a long-running experiment unfolded that showed West Germany's freer economy was clearly superior to East Germany's communist one. The result was, of course, the erection of the Berlin Wall to prevent flight from communist East to capitalist West.
http://www.dallasfed.org/research/ei/ei9901.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/lo/timemap/index.html


The Marshall Plan

This account has not mentioned the Marshall Plan. Can't the German revival be attributed mainly to that? The answer is no. The reason is simple: Marshall Plan aid to Germany was not that large. Cumulative aid from the Marshall Plan and other aid programs totaled only $2 billion through October 1954. Even in 1948 and 1949, when aid was at its peak, Marshall Plan aid was less than 5 percent of German national income. Other countries that received substantial Marshall Plan aid had lower growth than Germany.

Moreover, while Germany was receiving aid, it was also making reparations and restitution payments that were well over $1 billion. Finally, and most important, the Allies charged the Germans DM7.2 billion annually ($2.4 billion) for their costs of occupying Germany. (Of course, these occupation costs also meant that Germany did not need to pay for its own defense.)

Conclusion

What looked like a miracle to many observers was really not a miracle. It was expected by Ludwig Erhard and by others of the Freiburg school who understood the damage that can be done by inflation coupled with price controls and high tax rates, and the large productivity gains that can be unleashed by ending inflation, removing controls, and cutting high marginal tax rates.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GermanEconomicMiracle.html


Chapter 9: Germany's Bold Move [4:11]
Onscreen title: Berlin, 1947

NARRATOR: The war left Germany in ruins. Its economy had disintegrated. Markets had broken down. Shops were empty. Already the Russians occupied East Germany and were waiting for the rest to fall into their lap. In the American and British occupation zones, raging hyperinflation had made the German currency worthless.

In the winter of 1948, the Allies appointed as director of economic affairs a rotund, cigar-chomping economist named Ludwig Erhard. A staunch anti-Nazi, Erhard was a free-market economist who shared many of Hayek's beliefs and ideas. He also believed the Allies' economic rules were making a bad situation worse.

MILTON FRIEDMAN: The occupying authorities had imposed a system under which there were extensive wage and price controls, supposedly to control inflation, but of course wage and price controls never control inflation. And you had essentially an economy that was brought to a halt.

ALFRED BOSCH, Economist and Friend of Hayek: In this situation the black markets formed, and American cigarettes were its form of currency.

MILTON FRIEDMAN: Nobody smoked cigarettes. They were for small transactions. Cognac was a medium of circulation for large transactions.

NARRATOR: The Allies introduced a new currency, the Deutsche Mark, to replace the worthless German money. But for Erhard, that was not enough. So without informing the Allies, Erhard went on the radio and made a startling announcement.

KARL OTTO POHL: Ludwig Erhard, a legendary man, he decided, without asking anybody and against the will of the American occupation powers, he decided to give up all price controls.

NARRATOR: Next day, Gen. Lucius Clay, the man in charge of occupied Germany, demanded to know what Erhard thought he was doing.

ALFRED BOSCH: Clay said, "What have you done? You have changed the Allied price controls." Erhard replied, "Herr General, I haven't changed them; I've abolished them." And Clay said, "My advisors tell me it is a big mistake." Erhard replied, "Herr General, my advisors tell me the same thing."

NARRATOR: Overnight the black market disappeared. People stopped hoarding, and goods not seen for 10 years went on sale.

MILTON FRIEDMAN: It started the markets working, with free prices. Instead of nothing being in the windows of the shops, everything started to come up. And that began the German economic miracle.

NARRATOR: Germany's "social market economy" combined free markets with a strong welfare state. Within a few years, Germany's social market economy overtook Britain's more planned economy.

But back then, nobody wanted to model themselves on Germany. Most countries preferred to plan their economies.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitextlo/tr_show01.html

[CJLauderdale4]

The Marshall Plan was a reconstruction and aid plan for post WWII. The plan was to reach out to European nations that:

a) were utterly destroyed by WWII (which the US participated in)
b) used up all monetary reserves on fighting off the Germans

Note: the only nations that recevied monies from the US were nations friendly to the idea of democracy. See wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

NO EASTERN BLOC NATIONS RECEIVED A DIME FROM US!!!

Due to this, the Soviets basically controlled these nations with no intervention from the United States at all. That's right - NO INTERVENTION INTO THE TRUE ENEMY'S PART OF THE WORLD (Eastern Communist Bloc).

The only reason West Germany and Italy received funds through this plan is because they signed treaties with the U.S., where these nation's governments were now being setup democratically.

What we're doing now in the Middle East would be equivalent to the US invading Germany, Italy, and Japan in 1935-1938, building bases and huge embasies there, deposing Hitler, Mousolini, and Hirohito, and then setting up democracies in these nations (of course, praying the people accept this way of life).

The Marshall Plan was not "preventative war". It was political and economic response to the post-WWII devastation in democratic nations.

This is Ron Paul's message: the concept of "preventative" war (like preventing WWII or now WWIII) is NOT a JUST WAR. "Preemptive" war or strike, striking first when you have absolute certainty that you are about to be directly striken by an enemy IS JUST. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE.

Thus, the comparison of the Marshall Plan to our strategy in the Middle East is not even close. But even if you go that route, you can mention that the Marshall Plan was NOT WITH FORCE, only supported democratic nations (not intervened with communist ones), and was not "preventative" war (but prevention by economic/political means). EXACTLY RON PAUL'S POINT!!

Hope that helps.

[alexlcameron]

Thanks so much guys!!! I found some facts regarding our occupations of foreign countries. Gotta try to tie all of this together....
Here is what I found, pretty convincing ifyou ask me..


Nation-building Military Occupations by the
United States and Great Britain, 1850-2000

U.S. Occupations

Austria 1945-1955 success
Cuba 1898-1902 failure
Cuba 1906-1909 failure
Cuba 1917-1922 failure
Dominican Republic 1911-1924 failure
Dominican Republic 1965-1967 success
Grenada 1983-1985 success
Haiti 1915-1934 failure
Haiti 1994-1996 failure
Honduras 1924 failure
Italy 1943-1945 success
Japan 1945-1952 success
Lebanon 1958 failure
Lebanon 1982-1984 failure
Mexico 1914-1917 failure
Nicaragua 1909-1910 failure
Nicaragua 1912-1925 failure
Nicaragua 1926-1933 failure
Panama 1903-1933 failure
Panama 1989-1995 success
Philippines 1898-1946 success
Somalia 1992-1994 failure
South Korea 1945-1961 failure
West Germany 1945-1952 success

British Occupations

Botswana 1886-1966 success
Brunei 1888-1984 failure
Burma (Myanmar) 1885-1948 failure
Cyprus 1914-1960 failure
Egypt 1882-1922 failure
Fiji 1874-1970 success
Ghana 1886-1957 failure
Iraq 1917-1932 failure
Iraq 1941-1947 failure
Jordan 1921-1956 failure
Kenya 1894-1963 failure
Lesotho 1884-1966 failure
Malawi (Nyasaland) 1891-1964 failure
Malaysia 1909-1957 success
Maldives 1887-1976 success
Nigeria 1861-1960 failure
Palestine 1917-1948 failure
Sierra Leone 1885-1961 failure
Solomon Islands 1893-1978 success
South Yemen (Aden) 1934-1967 failure
Sudan 1899-1956 failure
Swaziland 1903-1968 failure
Tanzania 1920-1963 failure
Tonga 1900-1970 success
Uganda 1894-1962 failure
Zambia (N. Rhodesia) 1891-1964 failure
Zimbabwe (S. Rhodesia) 1888-1980 failure

[alexlcameron]

The Marshall Plan

This account has not mentioned the Marshall Plan. Can't the German revival be attributed mainly to that? The answer is no. The reason is simple: Marshall Plan aid to Germany was not that large. Cumulative aid from the Marshall Plan and other aid programs totaled only $2 billion through October 1954. Even in 1948 and 1949, when aid was at its peak, Marshall Plan aid was less than 5 percent of German national income. Other countries that received substantial Marshall Plan aid had lower growth than Germany.

Moreover, while Germany was receiving aid, it was also making reparations and restitution payments that were well over $1 billion. Finally, and most important, the Allies charged the Germans DM7.2 billion annually ($2.4 billion) for their costs of occupying Germany. (Of course, these occupation costs also meant that Germany did not need to pay for its own defense.)

Conclusion

What looked like a miracle to many observers was really not a miracle. It was expected by Ludwig Erhard and by others of the Freiburg school who understood the damage that can be done by inflation coupled with price controls and high tax rates, and the large productivity gains that can be unleashed by ending inflation, removing controls, and cutting high marginal tax rates.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/G...icMiracle.html


Great stuff thanks for the help its greatly appreciated guys!! This is the reason I love good debate. I always leave with more historical insight and knowledge.. Also nice to have rpforums in my corner :) I also found some writings by James L. Payne and William Blum that show the fallacies of U.S. foreign policy. Anyone know much about these??