Universal Health Care

[ziggrl]

I'm the one watching the Democratic debates, reading Vanity Fair magazine and the New York Times, and watching Sean Penn movies and Michael Moore documentaries. I believe in sleeping with the enemy and knowing them better than they do.

Michael Moore is pro universal health care and in the documentary it details how Hillary's plan got the kabash from health insurers even though she tried to include them in the negotiations.

He made the documentary favoring universal health care in France, England, and Cuba like they were the most utopian. Of course, he did not touch on people talking about giving half their paycheck in order to afford it.

Has anyone watched Sicko? What did you think? Did you watch the special features (especially with Che's daughter). Che was a modern day example of a revolutionary.

I'm posting this in the Grassroots Central section of the board also.

[gang]

Che was a modern day example of a revolutionary.



Che was a mass murderer. He does NOT stand for liberty.

[Eric B]

You need to understand that marxism is the complete opposite of freedom.


It boils my blood when misinformed people walk around with his face plastered on their shirt. Research his ideas and his actions - Che Guevara was no hero.

[cliche]

I didn't watch the entire movie but I've seen plenty of clips from it and read many articles on it.

Most people are drawn to the idea of universal health care. The idea that health care is a right seems to make sense to people. They sympathize with the argument that somebody actually making a profit *gasp* on your health care is abhorrent in a civilized society.

When Michale Moore argues from this vantage, it is so very easy to appeal to the emotions and the 'common sense' of people. "Why can't our very rich country provide health care to everybody?" Well, for the same reason a rich country can't just give food out to everybody for free. Health care is simply a service that must play by the same economic rules that everything else does.

The situation right now is that the US has this awkward hybrid system that, for some reason, has resulted in ridiculously high prices for health care services and medicine. With no clear system in place it is difficult to see where the pain is really coming from. The free marketeers argue that it is the government regulation and corporatism that have caused the skyrocketing prices. The socialists argue that high prices are to be expected when we have insurance companies making a profit on our health.

[Truth Warrior]

Universal health care, where is that in the constitution? Ron would very likely be more than happy to tell us, for those who don't/won't/can't read. :D

[Mordan]

universal free food? I like the analogy

[Royksopp]

I have to be honest, and say that here in the UK universal heathcare really is quite brilliant.

[Mordan]

I have to be honest, and say that here in the UK universal heathcare really is quite brilliant.

lol:o

[Air420]

Mass Murderer? Where do you come up with that? Che did preside over trials after the overthrow of Batista's regime, where 156 to 550 officials and members of the BRAC, a brutal unit of the secret police were executed. Batista was a man who killed over 20,000 Cubans with the full support of the US. The US blockade against Cuba(which Ron supports removing immediately) has contributed to the death of far more Cubans that the communist party even at the hight of its social repression .

[WilliamC]

"Universal Health Care" won't apply to those who have the money and power to hire private doctors.

There will never be equal health care for all, and anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

[CJLauderdale4]

Hillary has said that when her Universal Health Care plan is implemented, there will be an "enforced method of having all Americans comply." Interviewer: "You mean, even garnishing wages?" Hillary, "There will be a method - if that's what it takes...."

So I go to college, earn a degree, bust my ass for a Fortune 500 company, only to have this bitch come in, force my company to stop providing affordable health insurance options, and then take MORE money from me for crappier health service???

WTF???

[Rahl]

I have to be honest, and say that here in the UK universal heathcare really is quite brilliant.

really ?
i thought english hospitals and healthcare in general were quite bad.

i remember reading about that like 3 years ago in austrian msm newspapers.

[Enano1983]

Having lived in various countries that have universal health care I can tell you that it has the potential to be far better than what the US offers.
People have been brainwashed here in the US to think that the US system is far better, but it isn't.
There are several countries ranked higher than the US on the WHO ranking and some of those have national care plans
I received far better attention and much faster care for free in the UK than I have in the US while paying $4000/year for student insurance. (Not to mention that I'm often stuck with a bill after US care, even with insurance.)
US health care is only "better" if you're rich, white, and have a job that pays for at least the majority of the premiums. Other than that you get bent over.

Now having said that, I don't think the US is ready for universal care. Our economy is in a precarious position as it is, and until we cut the corruption out of the govt. any attempt at Universal Care would only make matters worse than they already are. Not to mention the indoctrination that would have to be overcome to even get the people to consider supporting it.

At the moment the govt. is half-in, half-out of health care, which is a very bad position. It means that HMOs can pay off congressmen and others to take care of their interests. Either the govt. needs to go all-in (Universal care) and completely abolish the greedy, underhanded HMOs (not likely given how much control they currently hold over the govt.) or get all-out. Ie a pure free-market driven health care system where the competition between HMOs for customers would drive down prices.

While I truly think that I received better care while living in Germany, the UK, and Canada, I just don't think that similar systems would work out for the best here, although our system is in desperate need of an overhaul.

Just my $0.02

Also:
"really ?
i thought english hospitals and healthcare in general were quite bad.

i remember reading about that like 3 years ago in austrian msm newspapers. "

Probably true, I've also seen articles like that. Only problem is they don't do like for like comparisons. Ie they often compare care received via the NHS with care received with insurance. That's not a fair comparison at all.
You can walk into ANY hospital without insurance or any money and receive the care you need.
If you tried that in America you'd be in for a rude awakening.

[Lucille]

Mass Murderer? Where do you come up with that? Che did preside over trials after the overthrow of Batista's regime, where 156 to 550 officials and members of the BRAC, a brutal unit of the secret police were executed. Batista was a man who killed over 20,000 Cubans with the full support of the US. The US blockade against Cuba(which Ron supports removing immediately) has contributed to the death of far more Cubans that the communist party even at the hight of its social repression .

Che began as a Marxist and ended up as a Stalinist, as most socialists do.

Go sell crazy someplace else. Che was a murdering, fascist pig.

The Cult of Che (http://www.slate.com/id/2107100)


Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims. To get himself killed, and to get a lot of other people killed, was central to Che's imagination. In the famous essay in which he issued his ringing call for "two, three, many Vietnams," he also spoke about martyrdom and managed to compose a number of chilling phrases: "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become …"— and so on.

The Real Cuba (http://www.therealcuba.com/index.htm)

THIS IS THE FAMOUS 'GREAT AND FREE HEALTH CARE' THAT REGULAR CUBANS RECEIVE (http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm)

I want nothing to do with any sort of Socialized Medicine. Like PJ O'Rourke said, "If you think health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free."

Issue: Health Care RonPaul2008 (http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/health-care/)

Government meddling is what got us into this "health care crisis" to begin with. Of course, the Dems' solution is to add more government. They're insane. (Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result = Insanity.)

Reagan on Socialized Medicine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs)

If there is any issue that can inspire me to vote for a Republican come Nov., even McCain, it's this one.

[itsnobody]

The US managed care System isn't any better, but socialized medicine is horrible and disgusting....the free market system ALWAYS works better....look at every area where there's a full fledged free market and you see prices going down, quality going up, all this happening without raising government spending, over regulation, and raising taxes

Take for instance Lasik surgery, an area where the free market is allowed to operate, in 1999 it costed around $2200 per eye...and now less than 10 years even with all our inflation and economic problems you can get lasik surgery for as low as $299 per eye...that's the power of actual free market, also note the quality of lasik surgery has gone up (even though prices went down), surgery is now faster, safer, and the lasers are more precise

The samething goes for cosmetic surgery, which also is allowed to run on a free market....

The conclusion is simple, if you want low quality healthcare, long waiting lists, high taxation, and more government spending go for socialized medicine

However if you want higher quality, affordable healthcare that doesn't raises taxes or government spending, then the free market solution is the best

[ziggrl]

The US managed care System isn't any better, but socialized medicine is horrible and disgusting....the free market system ALWAYS works better....look at every area where there's a full fledged free market and you see prices going down, quality going up, all this happening without raising government spending, over regulation, and raising taxes

Take for instance Lasik surgery, an area where the free market is allowed to operate, in 1999 it costed around $2200 per eye...and now less than 10 years even with all our inflation and economic problems you can get lasik surgery for as low as $299 per eye...that's the power of actual free market, also note the quality of lasik surgery has gone up (even though prices went down), surgery is now faster, safer, and the lasers are more precise

The samething goes for cosmetic surgery, which also is allowed to run on a free market....

The conclusion is simple, if you want low quality healthcare, long waiting lists, high taxation, and more government spending go for socialized medicine

However if you want higher quality, affordable healthcare that doesn't raises taxes or government spending, then the free market solution is the best

WOW! That's a great observation with cosmetic and lasik surgery. I will remember to use this analogy when spreaking to my Dem friends (which is all of them).

[RothbardianBoy]

ALL YOU MUST SEE THE ANTI-MOORE MOVIE

AND WITH A LIBERTARIAN PERSPECTIVE OF HEALTH CARE IN AMERICA


"WHEN THE GOVERNMENT BECOMES YOUR DOCTOR"


http://www.sickandsickermovie.com/index.html


I recommend also this video
Sick Citizens vs. The FDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCtkNqgB4Hk


Libertarian greetings from socialist and slave Europe, exactly Spain

[fufurios]

Thanks for the Links.

I totally agree with the quote of the description in the Youtube video:

"Who owns your body? If you can be arrested for putting something in your own body then perhaps the government is a part-owner of your body."

[TastyWheat]

Singapore is #6 on the World Health Organization's top healthcare systems. Their government covers 33% of healthcare costs and healthcare accounts for only 3% of their GDP. Free market health care can and does work. Maybe we should try it.

[pandalover]

Universal health care, where is that in the constitution? Ron would very likely be more than happy to tell us, for those who don't/won't/can't read. :D

You could use that same example for slavery in the 1800s. The Constitution was meant to be amended.

[ARealConservative]

now this leak is hilarious!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/wikileaks-cuba-banned-sicko?intcmp=239