Christians and Government

[DeadtoSin]

Guys, people have been distracting from the Ron Paul Revolution a lot lately. I'm kind of tired of coming to these forums lately and hearing the rants against Christians. Apparently if the internets are true, I'm a moral policeman who wants to turn America into a theocracy and make everyone be a Christian.

Well, look, we aren't all like that. You guys that rant about Christians have scared away Christian supporters. I know two or three fellow Christians that have been scared away by the actions of a few of the supporters, not necessarily here. Why are you guys doing this? Its almost like you are trying to sabotage Ron Paul's campaign, and insult the very religion that Ron Paul is a part of.


If you are a non-Christian, and you feel that you cannot trust yourself enough to not rant about how stupid Christian people are, don't even think about hitting reply in a topic. Don't talk to that Christian person in real life about Ron Paul.

Maybe if you took the time to explain to these Christian people what a liberty-minded Christian would do in terms of government you could win them over. That'd certainly be a lot better than sitting here on the forums angsting over how the "Christian sheep" have stolen the election.


First of all, I'm kind of wary of us trying to get the federal government to do our job for us. Thats sort of what I feel like we as Christians are really doing in government as of lately. I'm not talking about voting against what you believe, and things like that. Definitely, vote for the candidate that fits your ideals the closest. However, we really push Congress and the Judiciary to enforce our morals.

I have a problem with this. First off, I think we should be careful about the way we go about bringing morality to this nation. Doing it with the iron first of the Federal government is a scary road to turn down. Just think of the abuses the government could get away with if they had not only the power but the moral high ground to do it as well!

Also, consider how non-Christians perceive us. If they are REQUIRED to act in the same fashion as we are, how are we any different from they are? Obviously we know the difference, but a non-Christian person would feel no compulsion to make any commitment, and they'd see no real reason.

It really goes back to the Pharisees and their desire to live a holy life by doing it themselves. Sure, if we had a law against lying, people wouldn't lie. But think about it, does that really make them more holy? Only the desire to live a life like Christ's life and your belief in Him saves you. So when we force our ideals on people, you've got to think, is that man trying to live holy..or is he trying to not get arrested/fined?

In any case, I've been rather unhappy with the Federal government's decisions on social issues. I mean, look at Roe vs. Wade. Do we really want something like THAT case on the books for all the things we hold dear to us as Christians?

We should be shining God's love, not trying to force the Federal govt to do so.

[thexjib]

I like christians....

I’m a pro-life atheist libertarian anarchist in favor of gay marriage.... and I try to be tolerant of everyone.

[PaulineDisciple]

Actually, it is only a Christian view of reality that makes sense of why man has special rights at all. We can only have these transendent rights in leu of their being created in God's image, rights that other animals do not have.

I would like to see a naturalistic argument that is consistent with its major premise of naturalism that demonstrates why it is wrong for a fish to eat another fish but it is wrong for a human to eat another human.

[RonPaulVolunteer]

what he said...

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Actually, it is only a Christian view of reality that makes sense of why man has special rights at all. We can only have these transendent rights in leu of their being created in God's image, rights that other animals do not have.

I would like to see a naturalistic argument that is consistent with its major premise of naturalism that demonstrates why it is wrong for a fish to eat another fish but it is wrong for a human to eat another human.

arghh... we just don't need to go there... talk about ASKING for trouble...

[PaulineDisciple]

arghh... we just don't need to go there... talk about ASKING for trouble...

But it is demonstrable that this was the view of our founders, so are saying that we should not go to our founders for the solutions for our problems.

Israel was constantly and consistently punished for their rejection of Him, and who are we to think that He will not do the same thing to us if we reject Him.

Sorry if you think this is extreme, but I have yet to see a naturalistic alternative that provides the foundational beliefs necessary to make objective claims to moral laws that do not have to borrow from a Christian view of reality.

If you would like, I would be glad to provide quotes from our founding fathers asserting the same ideas.

[Mark]

Sometimes there is a spiritual reason why non Christians are so filled with anger against Christians that they would even
drive away potential supporters of Ron just so they can rail against Christians.


It's been covered before after earlier primaries/caucuses that all of this vitriol against Christians on this board
has driven away potential Christian voters for Ron.

Dare I say spirits are involved? Spirits that hate God. There, I said it. Demonic influences control the actions of some people,
and the people are totally unaware.

Atheists and Agnostics - please THINK before you attack on this forum those that believe in God.

It HURTS the campaign. And electing Ron is why we're ALL here for isn't it?

Releasing your anger against Christians is NOT worth driving away potential supporters of Ron. Is it?

.

[Cinderella]

i wouldnt say im religious...i believe in the stars the sun and the moon...im very spiritual and i firmly believe in the old saying of treating others the way u want to be treated

[gaazn]

the radical christian extremists want to occupy the middle east and bomb iran. i think this is also a "transcendent challenge of the 21st century." the silent christian and muslim majority suffer because of the extremists on both sides.

[Mark]

++

[Mark]

the radical christian extremists want to occupy the middle east and bomb iran. i think this is also a "transcendent challenge of the 21st century." the silent christian and muslim majority suffer because of the extremists on both sides.


And some who wear the mantle of Christianity are in reality NOT Christians and instead are worshipers of Satan.

They pretend to be Christian in order to manipulate the masses, so, just because someone CLAIMS to be Christian, doesn't mean it's so.

Please keep that in mind the next time someone who calls themselves a Christian does incredibly un-Christian type things.

For example, politicians and media types.

Some of us can see through the veil, but only because we know that there's a veil that needs to be seen through.

[gaazn]

And some who wear the mantle of Christianity are in reality NOT Christians and instead are worshipers of Satan.

They pretend to be Christian in order to manipulate the masses, so, just because someone CLAIMS to be Christian, doesn't mean it's so.

Please keep that in mind the next time someone who calls themselves a Christian does incredibly un-Christian type things.

For example, politicians and media types.

Some of us can see through the veil, but only because we know that there's a veil that needs to be seen through.


huckabee is scary. he's looks like a lamb but talks like a dragon. i have a bad feeling that a mccain/huckabee ticket is already determined by prophecy.

[Mark]

huckabee is scary. he's looks like a lamb but talks like a dragon. i have a bad feeling that a mccain/huckabee ticket is already determined by prophecy.


Someone else mentioned that in 2005. I think they have a plan people.


Know any Conservative Southern Republicans running also? About to drop out? Taking votes away from Romney?


http://www.co.miami.oh.us/A55969/spb...8?OpenDocument (http://www.co.miami.oh.us/A55969/spbx.nsf/8178b1c14b1e9b6b8525624f0062fe9f/E22A7217EFDE58AD862570B600532208?OpenDocument)

11/11/2005 09:08 AM http://www.co.miami.oh.us/icons/ecblank.gifhttp://www.co.miami.oh.us/icons/ecblank.gifhttp://www.co.miami.oh.us/icons/ecblank.gif

"While overall I like McCain,
I was less than impressed with his knee-jerk "loyal to my party" response to Kerry's overtures re: a split ticket in the last campaign.

It was a chance for two major players to rise above partisan petty politics and put the good of the country above the good of the parties.

That McCain was so dismissive - afraid to even be thought of as CONSIDERING the offer - and so loyal, at least in public,

to the administration that Roveinzed him, led me to believe that the backbone he had shown earlier had been weakened."

In my opinion, three things were at work here...

1. McCain probably didn't want to play second banana to anyone. He's waited too long to be President.

2. Because of his more conservative beliefs, he wouldn't have been able to effectively work with Kerry's cabinet or constituents.

3. McCain probably realized that if he was the good soldier and helped Bush win in 2004,
he'd have a legitimate shot at the Republican nomination in 2008.


I think McCain will finally be nominated by his party in 2008, with a conservative southern Republican as his VP.

If this happens, moderate Democrats will jump party lines to vote for McCain, propelling the GOP to its third consecutive term. http://www.co.miami.oh.us/icons/ecblank.gif



Latest AOL Election Pic
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/POLITICS/02/02/super.tuesday/t1home.1911.candidates.gi.jpg

[Todd]

Sometimes there is a spiritual reason why non Christians are so filled with anger against Christians that they would even
drive away potential supporters of Ron just so they can rail against Christians.


It's been covered before after earlier primaries/caucuses that all of this vitriol against Christians on this board
has driven away potential Christian voters for Ron.

Dare I say spirits are involved? Spirits that hate God. There, I said it. Demonic influences control the actions of some people,
and the people are totally unaware.

Atheists and Agnostics - please THINK before you attack on this forum those that believe in God.

It HURTS the campaign. And electing Ron is why we're ALL here for isn't it?

Releasing your anger against Christians is NOT worth driving away potential supporters of Ron. Is it?

.


Thanks Mark...You're a voice of reason. It's about the goal. This thing has brought us all together for whatever reason. To protect all our freedoms.

[Mark]

Thanks Mark...You're a voice of reason. It's about the goal. This thing has brought us all together for whatever reason. To protect all our freedoms.

Amen Brother and Patriot.

For those that can understand the need, I'll be working a project on the Spiritual side of things soon to cover that angle as well.

[FTL]

Paul doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve. He doesn't use religion as a crutch for his ideas. I don't think he would do somthing because GOD told him to do it.

Religion is a personal thing, and that's where it belongs.

I think atheists tend to like Paul because he is for personal freedom and choice.

Die hard christians tend to be like sheep. They feel like they must have a shepherd to follow, and tell them what they can and cannot do. Otherwise they are lost.

Most atheists are independent free thinkers, and Ron Paul promotes this quality.

I don't think a person should vote based on religion at all. Paul is a christian, but I think he knows that a God isn't going to swoop down and save the day.

Paul is a logical thinker.

[FTL]

huckabee is scary. he's looks like a lamb but talks like a dragon. i have a bad feeling that a mccain/huckabee ticket is already determined by prophecy.


If christians believe that Mccain/Huck are the ones that will fulfill the awful scary end times prophecy, then what do they do about it?

Do they vote for who they think will cause great destruction in order to help carry out the end times?

Do they vote for a logical guy that promotes peace?

It seems that some christians get off on the idea that the world will end in a fiery inferno. This is a problem I have with that old book that was written by mortal men.

A god doesn't make a prophecy come true, The actions of brainwashed people do.

[Elegy]

Guys, people have been distracting from the Ron Paul Revolution a lot lately. I'm kind of tired of coming to these forums lately and hearing the rants against Christians. Apparently if the internets are true, I'm a moral policeman who wants to turn America into a theocracy and make everyone be a Christian.

Well, look, we aren't all like that. You guys that rant about Christians have scared away Christian supporters. I know two or three fellow Christians that have been scared away by the actions of a few of the supporters, not necessarily here. Why are you guys doing this? Its almost like you are trying to sabotage Ron Paul's campaign, and insult the very religion that Ron Paul is a part of.


If you are a non-Christian, and you feel that you cannot trust yourself enough to not rant about how stupid Christian people are, don't even think about hitting reply in a topic. Don't talk to that Christian person in real life about Ron Paul.

Maybe if you took the time to explain to these Christian people what a liberty-minded Christian would do in terms of government you could win them over. That'd certainly be a lot better than sitting here on the forums angsting over how the "Christian sheep" have stolen the election.


First of all, I'm kind of wary of us trying to get the federal government to do our job for us. Thats sort of what I feel like we as Christians are really doing in government as of lately. I'm not talking about voting against what you believe, and things like that. Definitely, vote for the candidate that fits your ideals the closest. However, we really push Congress and the Judiciary to enforce our morals.

I have a problem with this. First off, I think we should be careful about the way we go about bringing morality to this nation. Doing it with the iron first of the Federal government is a scary road to turn down. Just think of the abuses the government could get away with if they had not only the power but the moral high ground to do it as well!

Also, consider how non-Christians perceive us. If they are REQUIRED to act in the same fashion as we are, how are we any different from they are? Obviously we know the difference, but a non-Christian person would feel no compulsion to make any commitment, and they'd see no real reason.

It really goes back to the Pharisees and their desire to live a holy life by doing it themselves. Sure, if we had a law against lying, people wouldn't lie. But think about it, does that really make them more holy? Only the desire to live a life like Christ's life and your belief in Him saves you. So when we force our ideals on people, you've got to think, is that man trying to live holy..or is he trying to not get arrested/fined?

In any case, I've been rather unhappy with the Federal government's decisions on social issues. I mean, look at Roe vs. Wade. Do we really want something like THAT case on the books for all the things we hold dear to us as Christians?

We should be shining God's love, not trying to force the Federal govt to do so.

Excellent post DeadtoSin. I am a born again Christian as well and feel the same way.

[dawnbt]

I am a proud Christian Ron Paul supporter. Say what you will, I will never leave! Ron Paul FTW!

[Cal Mabus]

Bump for filing.

[dblee]

[edited for quote]

That is TRUE. And that's why we should all try to be more TOLERANT.

I am sick of seeing posts bashing on christians as if MOST people who support paul are atheists. This is simply not true.

I'm here manning the phone banks (they're off currently due to the superbowl) and let me tell you, 99.99% of the people i talk to are commited christians.

So if we don't open this tent up and welcome some of these voters we are going to LOSE this election.

[tommy7154]

Ugh i'm getting deleted again aren't I. It really only helps to create more hostility when posts get deleted...let me try this:

Label me a hippy (you have the right ) but god or no god I believe all of us are here because we ALL believe in this country and in our freedom, we ALL believe in peace, we ALL want kindness and love. We all have faith in one way or another and we all have hope.

Some may believe god has sent him here for us, and some may believe he is the closest thing there is to a god in this world, but regardless the fact remains that Dr Ron Paul is here and we ALL want him to be the next president of the USA.

[Molly1]

I am a proud Christian Ron Paul supporter. Say what you will, I will never leave! Ron Paul FTW!

I was just thinking the same thing. No one could drive me away from this exceptional man.

I am waiting on God to drop the scales from the eyes of the Christians who have been used mightily by a small group whom I doubt even believes in God.

Ron Paul is as close to Jesus as you'll ever see walking on this earth, save Jesus himself.

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

---Mark 12

[hillbilly]

Sometimes there is a spiritual reason why non Christians are so filled with anger against Christians that they would even
drive away potential supporters of Ron just so they can rail against Christians.


It's been covered before after earlier primaries/caucuses that all of this vitriol against Christians on this board
has driven away potential Christian voters for Ron.

Dare I say spirits are involved? Spirits that hate God. There, I said it. Demonic influences control the actions of some people,
and the people are totally unaware.

Atheists and Agnostics - please THINK before you attack on this forum those that believe in God.

It HURTS the campaign. And electing Ron is why we're ALL here for isn't it?

Releasing your anger against Christians is NOT worth driving away potential supporters of Ron. Is it?

.

Exactly.

[tommy7154]

That is TRUE. And that's why we should all try to be more TOLERANT.

I am sick of seeing posts bashing on christians as if MOST people who support paul are atheists. This is simply not true.

I'm here manning the phone banks (they're off currently due to the superbowl) and let me tell you, 99.99% of the people i talk to are commited christians.

So if we don't open this tent up and welcome some of these voters we are going to LOSE this election.

I'm not sure what you quoted but I would agree that more Christians than atheists support Ron Paul. Statistics for Christians and atheists in the US should point that out to anyone.

I welcome anybody of any religion that supports Dr Paul.

[disciple]

I was just thinking the same thing. No one could drive me away from this exceptional man.

I am waiting on God to drop the scales from the eyes of the Christians who have been used mightily by a small group whom I doubt even believes in God.

Ron Paul is as close to Jesus as you'll ever see walking on this earth, save Jesus himself.

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

---Mark 12

Right on.

[yaz]

huckabee quotes a liberal in one debate:

http://www.youtube.com/v/uzg9SEisBnk
"pottery barn rule, if you break it you fix it" would make a good youtube video.

[tommy7154]

I was just thinking the same thing. No one could drive me away from this exceptional man.

I am waiting on God to drop the scales from the eyes of the Christians who have been used mightily by a small group whom I doubt even believes in God.

Ron Paul is as close to Jesus as you'll ever see walking on this earth, save Jesus himself.

30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

---Mark 12

I'm an atheist and the last thing I would want is to drive you or anyone away from Ron Paul. In fact i'd go as far as saying that any atheist that wanted to drive anyone away from Ron Paul is not only a lousy atheist but a lousy human being.

[LibertyEagle]

This is not a thread to debate the pros and cons of Christianity.

Please do not hijack this thread.

Thank You.

[Molly1]

I'm an atheist and the last thing I would want is to drive you or anyone away from Ron Paul. In fact i'd go as far as saying that any atheist that wanted to drive anyone away from Ron Paul is not only a lousy atheist but a lousy human being.

You won't, don't worry.
:)

I hope you will bear with me, though, as I talk to my fellow Christians.

You can just skip over my posts if you want.:)

God has been trying to get through to them for a long time, bringing down their false leaders one after another.

[Wyurm]

perhaps it is the speed with which these threads move off the front page, but I haven't seen too many anti-christian postings. I have seen a few Huckabee postings and you need to be sure not to confuse the two. Huckabee wants to make the Constitution Christian. Allow me to put this in perspective. Imagine someone said they want the Constitution to enforce Jewish, Islamic, Athiest, or Wiccan pricipals? Who would be ok with that? Only that specific religion's members would. While the Constitution has its roots in Christian priciples, it is not only to preserve the inherent rights of Christians.

The Constitution was intended to preserve everyone's rights regardless of religion. To use the Constitution as a way to alter this Constitutional republic so that it becomes a theocracy is both absurd and horrific to those who are not evangelical Christians. Does speaking out against this constitute oppressing Christians? No, rather it is just showing concern about Huckabee's threats of oppression. Now, having not seen the statements you are upset about, I can not speak on what those people are saying. However, I should hope that it was not aimed at Christians, but rather at Huck's statements.

[Molly1]

huckabee quotes a liberal in one debate:

http://www.youtube.com/v/uzg9SEisBnk
"pottery barn rule, if you break it you fix it" would make a good youtube video.

tweedledumb and tweedledee

If you break it, you fix it--the pottery barn rule.

As if a human life is just some cheap trinket that can be glued back together after its destroyed.

Huckabee has been trained by the best.

[tommy7154]

Yes Molly not a problem :)

Liberty i'd suggest making a section for "Christians for Ron Paul" or something like that where it could be made clear that anyone coming in there debating Christianity itself would be deleted or banned.

I know of another popular forum that has its own section for religion because of the problems people had staying on topic.

[zbus12]

I'm a Christian, and I rail against "christians" all the time because they are phony. NWO brainwashed hacks.

[ButchHowdy]

As the Republican Party has been hijacked by the Neocons, Christianity has been hijacked by Evangelical Zionism and unless God removes the scales from the eyes of the deceived, they rarely listen to reason, let alone scripture such as: "Blessed are the Peacemakers . . . "

In a survey conducted some time ago by Time/CNN, over one third of America's 40-50 million evangelical Christians said they support Israel because they believe the Bible teaches that Jesus cannot return before the Jews possess their own state in all of the Holy Land. They believe that the nation of Israel will play a pivotal role in the unfolding of "end-time" events.

[hillbilly]

perhaps it is the speed with which these threads move off the front page, but I haven't seen too many anti-christian postings. I have seen a few Huckabee postings and you need to be sure not to confuse the two. Huckabee wants to make the Constitution Christian. Allow me to put this in perspective. Imagine someone said they want the Constitution to enforce Jewish, Islamic, Athiest, or Wiccan pricipals? Who would be ok with that? Only that specific religion's members would. While the Constitution has its roots in Christian priciples, it is not only to preserve the inherent rights of Christians.

The Constitution was intended to preserve everyone's rights regardless of religion. To use the Constitution as a way to alter this Constitutional republic so that it becomes a theocracy is both absurd and horrific to those who are not evangelical Christians. Does speaking out against this constitute oppressing Christians? No, rather it is just showing concern about Huckabee's threats of oppression. Now, having not seen the statements you are upset about, I can not speak on what those people are saying. However, I should hope that it was not aimed at Christians, but rather at Huck's statements.

I think Pauline already addressed this:


But it is demonstrable that this was the view of our founders, so are saying that we should not go to our founders for the solutions for our problems.

Israel was constantly and consistently punished for their rejection of Him, and who are we to think that He will not do the same thing to us if we reject Him.

Sorry if you think this is extreme, but I have yet to see a naturalistic alternative that provides the foundational beliefs necessary to make objective claims to moral laws that do not have to borrow from a Christian view of reality.

If you would like, I would be glad to provide quotes from our founding fathers asserting the same ideas.

Yes, the Constitution was written/designed to preserve our rights--our God given rights.

[weatherbill]

As a christian, I've had plenty of the most ignorant statements given me from Huckabee supporters. What I can say is do what dr paul preaches.....see people as individuals and not as groups......

one christian said to me over the war in iraq "The amalikites", like the ancient people of iraq are the amalikites, so it's ok to go to war with them....... I thoguht this christian guy is twisted to the hilt and is living in old testament judaism.......just rediculous! I told the guy we are under the new covenant and no longer under the old, where there is only people, no race creeds or colors involved........ he kept his stupidity......oh well....... some people we will never be able to talk any sense into........ you just gotta go on and forget those ignoramouses.

[Molly1]

I'm a Christian, and I rail against "christians" all the time because they are phony. NWO brainwashed hacks.

yes, but isn't wonderful watching God raising up his sons, no matter what they call themselves.

Romans 9:26
and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

[LibertyEagle]

Yes Molly not a problem :)

Liberty i'd suggest making a section for "Christians for Ron Paul" or something like that where it could be made clear that anyone coming in there debating Christianity itself would be deleted or banned.

I know of another popular forum that has its own section for religion because of the problems people had staying on topic.

The point is, do we need to be bashing Christians or anyone of any other religion, for that matter? They are free to believe what they want to believe. You bashing them here, only turns them away from Dr. Paul.

Have we forgotten that Dr. Paul and his wife, Carol, are Christians?

[Molly1]

As the Republican Party has been hijacked by the Neocons, Christianity has been hijacked by Evangelical Zionism and unless God removes the scales from the eyes of the deceived, they rarely listen to reason, let alone scripture such as: "Blessed are the Peacemakers . . . "

In a survey conducted some time ago by Time/CNN, over one third of America's 40-50 million evangelical Christians said they support Israel because they believe the Bible teaches that Jesus cannot return before the Jews possess their own state in all of the Holy Land. They believe that the nation of Israel will play a pivotal role in the unfolding of "end-time" events.

They are being misled by people like Hagee, who is a friend of Huckabee's by the way. Hagee has just announced that Jesus is not the Messiah. Since "Christ" is the Greek word for Messiah (which Hagee knows), Hagee has just defined himself as the spirit of the anti-christ.

Hagee has a church of about 19 million and a tv evangelistic following of about 90 million. He is paid well for his lies. He is teaching his following that if they can hurry up Armageddon, they will be raptured before any bad stuff happens to them. It's total insanity, and we need to pray that their eyes are opened to the untruths they are being fed by those who would use them as political pawns to achieve their own dastardly ends.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[zbus12]

yes, but isn't wonderful watching God raising up his sons, no matter what they call themselves.


Yes it is, and I have found, that it is a wonderful sight and sound to hear so many people from all different backgrounds come together and search and fight for truth together in this cause. I have also noticed so many people open and at least receptive to hearing the truth of the gospel because of the truths they seek. Even more so than those who claim to be Christian. I do truly believe this movement is a work of God! but then again, EVERYTHING is a work of God.

[LEK]

DeadtoSin -

Thank you so much for having the courage to post this. I too am tired of the Christian-bashing and wonder how people who support someone like Ron Paul, who recognizes and honors the individual, can be so sacrcastic and cutting. It is highly insulting to compare our faith to the faith of those who use it for poiltical gain. If we belonged to that category we wouldn't be supporting Ron Paul.


Where do you guys think Ron Paul's integrity comes from? Listen to him, read his statement of faith - he is a Christian too, a Baptist (Gasp!) - but not just in name only. He lives it.

"Some of the strongest supporters of the war declare that we are a Christian nation, yet use their religious beliefs to justify the war. They claim it is our Christian duty to remake the Middle East and attack the Muslim infidels. Evidently I have been reading from a different Bible. I remember something about “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS - Before the U.S. House of Representatives - June 29, 2006


Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words.

[DeadtoSin]

DeadtoSin -

Thank you so much for having the courage to post this. I too am tired of the Christian-bashing and wonder how people who support someone like Ron Paul, who recognizes and honors the individual, can be so sacrcastic and cutting. It is highly insulting to compare our faith to the faith of those who use it for poiltical gain. If we belonged to that category we wouldn't be supporting Ron Paul.


Where do you guys think Ron Paul's integrity comes from? Listen to him, read his statement of faith - he is a Christian too, a Baptist (Gasp!) - but not just in name only. He lives it.

"Some of the strongest supporters of the war declare that we are a Christian nation, yet use their religious beliefs to justify the war. They claim it is our Christian duty to remake the Middle East and attack the Muslim infidels. Evidently I have been reading from a different Bible. I remember something about “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

HON. RON PAUL OF TEXAS - Before the U.S. House of Representatives - June 29, 2006


Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words.

Wow guys, thanks for all the good posts! I did not expect to get this kind of response!

By the way LEK, I love that last line about preaching.

[cilution]

I think the root of this problem can be explained in part by what Ron Paul himself said of democracy. I remember him saying something along the lines of "Democracy implies the tyranny of the majority," and frankly, the majority of people in this country are Christian. Because we are a Democracy, and Christians are by far the majority, Christian views get pushed on everyone, whether you admit it or not. As a result, some people fear Christians as a whole because of their influence.

If we were a Republic that followed the Constitution, religious influence wouldn't matter as much because the minorities would be protected from the tyranny of the majority. In other words, non-Christians wouldn't need to worry about the government passing bills or taking action based on primarily Christian principles and beliefs. The Constitution is the government's Bible, as I see it. As an agnostic man, I do not want to feel pressure to conform to the majority's standards in order to feel accepted or to allow myself better chances to get ahead in life, but I suppose some conformity is necessary in any society. Just, please, not religious or belief-based conformity.

I have been discriminated against for various things in my life, and trust me, discrimination based on your beliefs hurts, and I have a feeling many people who are bitter towards Christianity have experienced similar discrimination. It works kind of like "Don't ask, don't tell" in the military. If I openly admit not being a Christian, I feel like I'm opening myself up to get the boot, limit my employment options, limit my potential friends, etc. I don't think that is right to feel like you need to hide who you are in order to have an equal shot in today's world.

[WATYF]

Israel was constantly and consistently punished for their rejection of Him, and who are we to think that He will not do the same thing to us if we reject Him.

Well... if you're basing your argument on Christian doctrine (i.e. the Bible), then "we" are under what's called the "new covenant". Israel was punished because their sins hadn't yet been paid for by the final sacrifice (the Messiah). They were still subject to the wrath of God. Now that all past and future sin has been atoned for, there's no need to worry about God smiting us for not being a "Christian" enough nation.

Sorry, but trying to scare people by saying, "If we don't turn back to being a Christian nation, God will smite us." is no less a scare tactic than saying, "If we don't attack Iraq, the terrorists will get us." Neither of those statements is/was supported by the evidence. Unfortunately, I think it's those types of attitudes that turn off non-Christian RP supporters.

I will say, however, that RP's message is working to promote the message of freedom among Christians who would formerly have been less "tolerant" of those that they disagree with. I personally have spoken with several Christians who previously would have replied with a knee-jerk "Absolutely not!" if asked whether or not they support the rights of gays to marry. But after understanding what RP stands for and the necessity of people being given the freedom to make their own choices, they've realized that in order to be consistent in the message of freedom, they are willing to accept that people should be given the right to make that decision, even if they dno't personally agree with it.


WATYF

[hillbilly]

There are two ways that religion is brought into public life in American history. The first way — God on our side — leads inevitably to triumphalism, self-righteousness, bad theology, and often, dangerous foreign policy. The second way — asking if we are on God's side — leads to much healthier things, namely, penitence and even repentance, humility, reflection, and even accountability. We need much more of all these, because these are often the missing values of politics.
-- Jim Wallis, "God's Politics"

[dblee]

There are two ways that religion is brought into public life in American history. The first way — God on our side — leads inevitably to triumphalism, self-righteousness, bad theology, and often, dangerous foreign policy. The second way — asking if we are on God's side — leads to much healthier things, namely, penitence and even repentance, humility, reflection, and even accountability. We need much more of all these, because these are often the missing values of politics.
-- Jim Wallis, "God's Politics"

wise words.

[dblee]

As a result, some people fear Christians as a whole because of their influence.

I can understand this. Many Christians are erroneously of the view that we can bludgeon our beliefs into those that don't agree with us. Jesus did not do this.



I have been discriminated against for various things in my life, and trust me, discrimination based on your beliefs hurts, and I have a feeling many people who are bitter towards Christianity have experienced similar discrimination. It works kind of like "Don't ask, don't tell" in the military. If I openly admit not being a Christian, I feel like I'm opening myself up to get the boot, limit my employment options, limit my potential friends, etc. I don't think that is right to feel like you need to hide who you are in order to have an equal shot in today's world.

In a libertarian world-view we're not protected from hurt feelings, only equal treatment under the law. That doesn't make discrimination right however. I think the first step to not being discriminated against is to refrain from continuing the pattern of discrimination yourself.

Retaliation does not breed harmony. Not accusing you of this, but as a Christian I often feel persecuted. Especially in libertarian and other intellectual circles. I hear things all the time like 'Do you know that Christians on a whole have lower IQ's?'

Totally ad hominem.

I envision a country someday with the constitution and Ron Paul's personal philosophy as a guide-- where everyone's beliefs are universally respected, and people's primary form of spreading their ideas is through example.

[DeadtoSin]

Good post dblee.

[hawks4ronpaul]

Christian non-intervention:

http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/2008/01/religious-endorse-ron-paul.html

[nbhadja]

But it is demonstrable that this was the view of our founders, so are saying that we should not go to our founders for the solutions for our problems.

Israel was constantly and consistently punished for their rejection of Him, and who are we to think that He will not do the same thing to us if we reject Him.

Sorry if you think this is extreme, but I have yet to see a naturalistic alternative that provides the foundational beliefs necessary to make objective claims to moral laws that do not have to borrow from a Christian view of reality.

If you would like, I would be glad to provide quotes from our founding fathers asserting the same ideas.

Morals don't come from religion. I am an atheist and have never derived any of my morals from religion.

[cilution]

Retaliation does not breed harmony. Not accusing you of this, but as a Christian I often feel persecuted. Especially in libertarian and other intellectual circles. I hear things all the time like 'Do you know that Christians on a whole have lower IQ's?'

I don't think that sort of behavior has anything to do with being libertarian or being part of any intellectual circles, that's entirely a personal need to make yourself feel superior to others. It's a sign of their own weakness, because they feel as if they need to prove themselves rather than automatically being seen and seeing others as equals. Most people would rather think of themselves as better than someone else.

Often times, sadly, people who are not religious feel as if they are superior in some way, perhaps because they don't feel tied down by faith or religious doctrines, and they believe that makes them more open-minded, but having that kind of attitude actually makes them closed-minded. People are silly creatures.

[Paul Revered]

i wouldnt say im religious...i believe in the stars the sun and the moon...im very spiritual and i firmly believe in the old saying of treating others the way u want to be treated

Matthew 7:12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)



12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


--Jesus

[hawks4ronpaul]

Christian Coalition Ralph Reed was just asked ( http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18664285) a direct question about who is "conservative" and he named Romney and Huckabee but NOT Paul, calling Paul a libertarian.

A strong values voter called-in to say that Reed's Coalition activities weakened the caller's GOP loyalty but the caller is voting RP in 2008 even if he has to write-in Paul.

Then, one of the other guests reset the conversation to stupid by calling McCain the most fiscally conservative, except for Paul, McCain was definitely the most fiscally conservative (yes, he actually named Paul only to eliminate him from the conversation on fiscal conservatism somehow).

Christian foreign policy: http://hawks4ronpaul.blogspot.com/2008/01/religious-endorse-ron-paul.html