View Full Version : Conspiracy theories
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mrapathy
05-23-2007, 10:44 PM
conspiracy is a crime in this country. thats precrime and hard wrap to fight in court often usually involves law enforcement action requiring an informant sometimes paid or an actual agent. the informant may do more to create a crime than the group of targeted people.
theory can be likened to fiction. science fiction is pretty silly stuff.
often when you challenge peoples world view or understanding they go thats tin foil hat stuff. theory and fiction is good for developing more advanced mind. recognizing possibilities then some people reach for them.
science has done this just look at your computer your typing on. own a cell phone?
what was once science fiction is now reality and todays science fiction is being worked on by scientist. nanotechnology. transhumanism,posthuman.
http://nanotechnology.e-spaces.com/presentations/Nano&GlobalSecurity.pdf
theory is used to formulate strategy. to keep ahead of others a good strategy is needed. having fools and fooling people is great strategy. you want them to have less comprehension and be unable to connect things.
of coarse not everything is a strategy or conspiracy. the right hand doesnt have to know what the left hand is doing.
it can be more simple and totally unrelated or it can be much bigger without anyone knowing any different.
in research and development they have a large scale secret project chart. I dont recall the name. you have a large project with lots of secretive Intellectual Property. So you have the project heavily distributed into many smaller projects. the person working on it doesnt have to know what its for and wont unless very clever.
confusion is perfect for deception.
when researching its good to branch out to possibilities sane or fuzzy. previously known items may turn false in the future. earth is flat? conpiracy theory nut burn him.
some of it just goes to pure fantasy and that hurts more than helps. its a subject as deep as a individuals understanding and assimilation of there perception(Paradigm). when one person perceives multiple causalities and holds reservations of them ie no conclusions it could be called a multadigmal view. various biasses and rationalizations to handle it make them think easier less headaches. sometimes they have to lie to themselves to quell the headaches.
after reaching possibility its good to go to probability and narrow down what can be with evidence and facts.
something that can be done is when someone says something is to try to invert what is said. inversion. it can allow you to better get into there mind at times but doesnt always work. takes a good amount of thinking power to do realtime and in a conversation but if you do it properly you can tear them a new one if you want. may not do any good. inversion another term is reverse engineering.
Brandybuck
05-23-2007, 11:16 PM
MrApathy's post is incoherent, so I'll ignore it. Moving on... Great cartoon!
Conspiracies are like drugs. The first few conspiracies may seem harmless, but you start needing bigger and bigger hits. What started out with an innocent "maybe Rosie has a point", leads to ever wider cabals of Insiders. It doesn't matter if one conspiracy directly contradicts another, because cognative dissonance has numbed your brain. So you combine them. Jewish communist aliens are secretly controlling the world! Eventually you're smoking the really nasty David Ickes nasty stuff, believing that Bush is a space alien reptile. At this point your sanity is gone.
It is good to have an open mind, but that is no excuse to empty it of all sense.
The problem is that most "conspiracy theories" are usually just people trying to make sense of "official" stories that don't add up. If it all added up there wouldn't be room for conjecture and theories.
There's a reason people question the Kennedy assassination. It isn't because people love conspiracy theories. It's because the official story doesn't add up. Likewise, the official 911 story does not add up in many ways.
Usually where there's smoke, there's fire. But most people aren't interested in questioning official stories so they mock people with inquisitive minds and talk about aliens and fluoride and they post cartoons, etc.
It's like people who believe in Occam's Razor. Those people are most often intellectually inferior because they cannot comprehend the complexity of the nature of things and assume the simplest answer is always the most likely answer.
I find it is a sign of a lazy mind to cite Occam's Razor in the face of any difficult question and to lump all conspiracy theories into the "crazy" category.
Besides, anybody who doubt aliens have visited this planet is certifiable given all the evidence and eyewitness testimony by civilians and military personnel.
Always yours in inquisitiveness,
Anne
p.s. Fluoride makes people docile. Just ask the Russians. ;)
NMCB3
05-24-2007, 01:05 AM
I think conspiracy theorists perform a certain necessary function in our society. Namely getting people to question the status quo, and the official government line. Imagine what it would be like if everyone just accepted everything the government said as truth. Thomas Jefferson was a conspiracy theorist, some of his beliefs were shown to be correct by history, others false. The Anti-Federalists were conspiracy nuts. Good thing too, if they were not we would not have a Bill of Rights. That said, some of that stuff is just pure nuttery. :)
Tin_Foil_Hat
05-24-2007, 06:55 AM
Conspiracies are like drugs. The first few conspiracies may seem harmless, but you start needing bigger and bigger hits.
Yeah, the grassy knoll is a gateway conspiracy. Once I got a taste of that there was no turning back.
BTW, does my tin foil hat make my head look too fat? ;)
The problem is that most "conspiracy theories" are usually just people trying to make sense of "official" stories that don't add up. If it all added up there wouldn't be room for conjecture and theories.
I'd say that this statement is generally debunked by the fact that the theories presented are almost without fail far less plausible, and far less believable in general, than the so-called official stories.
There's a reason people question the Kennedy assassination. It isn't because people love conspiracy theories. It's because the official story doesn't add up. Likewise, the official 911 story does not add up in many ways.
Then someone should commission people with real credentials to look into it. Maybe we could call it the "9/11 Commission", and ask them to file a report.
Usually where there's smoke, there's fire. But most people aren't interested in questioning official stories so they mock people with inquisitive minds and talk about aliens and fluoride and they post cartoons, etc.
I've questioned the official story, sure. I read the conspiracy sites, and the debunker sites, and then I turned off the intarwebs and got the inside dish from some real humans with real credentials in the fields. And let me tell you - university professors are one whacky-liberal bunch, if anyone hated the neocon president+congress we had there for a while, it's these guys. But not a one of 'em believes that 9/11 was an inside job. By and large, they cite a lot of the same basic facts about physics that the debunker folks do. I don't remember just what exactly the reasons were, this was years ago - but these are genuinely credible folks, here.
Why not try this? I'm sure there's a university in your area. Talk to some engineering and physics professors, you may even learn something. Anyone can make a website and claim to be right. Anyone can throw together some big words, that seem to make sense but stretch the facts or the laws of physics as necessary to suit their own whim.
It's like people who believe in Occam's Razor. Those people are most often intellectually inferior because they cannot comprehend the complexity of the nature of things and assume the simplest answer is always the most likely answer.
Hanlon's Razor accurately sums up my views on 9/11 conspiracies. :D
Conspiracy followers dictionary
Intellectually inferior (adj): Anyone who disagrees, or refuses to 'tow the party line' on popular conspiracy theories.
I find it is a sign of a lazy mind to cite Occam's Razor in the face of any difficult question and to lump all conspiracy theories into the "crazy" category.
And I find it reaching that some people seem unwilling to accept the possibility that they aren't right, either. I don't lump all conspiracy theories into the crazy category, just most of the ones that are real popular right now. And with good reason - most of them have been thoroughly disproven by members of the academic/scientific communities with real credentials. Some of them, like the "inside job" bit, are simply knee-jerk reactions against a government that has stepped all over 70+% of its' citizens. People want to demonize the government. It's funny, and it's easy. But we don't need conspiracy theories to do that, just every piece of public legislation that's gone beyond the powers granted by the constitution. :p
Besides, anybody who doubt aliens have visited this planet is certifiable given all the evidence and eyewitness testimony by civilians and military personnel.
Always yours in inquisitiveness,
Anne
I find it kind of funny and kind of sad that the people who believe these things always claim that they are of exceptionally inquisitive minds, but are not willing to accept criticism of the conspiracy theories they've come to accept as irrefutable. That's the point of the comic. Conspiracy theorists aren't inquisitive, they're people who believe whatever they read on the intarwebs. They question the so-called "official story", but not only refuse to question their pet-theories, they outright refuse to accept the idea that others may question them as well!
In closing, while conspiracy theory fans claim to be open-minded, they are among the most closed-minded people I've ever met, and that's why it's so hard to get along with them. Instead of simply accepting the webcomic as something funny, or ignoring it as something they disagree with, instead I've been subjected to personal attacks for posting it. On IRC, it's said that the first one who starts spewing vulgarities or attacks has lost. I've tried being exceptionally nice. When people called for banning any talk of conspiracies and the conspiracy followers themselves from the forum, I balked at the idea of silencing any member of our community. When others resorted to personal attacks and name-calling against conspiracy followers, I stood up and said to their faces that it was unproductive. I'd do it again, too - the majority of conspiracy followers haven't come here and started in with personal attacks and name calling. The fact that anyone has, though, is unfortunate and sad.
AlexAmore
05-24-2007, 09:52 AM
The 9/11 Commission report already admitted that they had a hard time and a string of disobedience from the Pentagon, CIA, FAA and other such places. It came out in a book called "Without Precedent"...of course they still claim depsite all that there was no cover-up....even though there was as they admit....but not a big one...just a lot of little ones.....or something. I dunno.
The 9/11 Commission report also never mentions WTC 7. :eek:
The 9/11 Commission Report also has a lot of men involved who are big conflicts of interest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#Members). It was not an independent investigation.
I also ask why they never released footage of the Pentagon attack. They released garbage footage that fueled conspiracy theories, I know they have a ton other cameras to put this conspiracy about the Pentagon to rest. Yet they don't. :confused:
You also seem to think all there is to the 9/11 thing was physics involved with the building's collapse. Sorry but there is WAY more to 9/11 than just physics. There's more to 9/11 than just what happened on that day for god sakes. I suggst you watch 9/11 Press for Truth (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3979568779414136481), this movie is based off of the most complete 9/11 timeline (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3979568779414136481) known to man. Of course the movie can't show the entire timeline because the movie would take forever, so at least you have it to look through it you want.
jon_perez
05-24-2007, 10:21 AM
I think conspiracy theorists perform a certain necessary function in our society. Namely getting people to question the status quo, and the official government line. Imagine what it would be like if everyone just accepted everything the government said as truth. Thomas Jefferson was a conspiracy theorist, some of his beliefs were shown to be correct by history, others false. The Anti-Federalists were conspiracy nuts. Good thing too, if they were not we would not have a Bill of Rights. That said, some of that stuff is just pure nuttery. :)Sure, free and open discussion must never be stifled. On the other hand, if it is not guided by critical thinking, it ends up poisoning people's minds and creates an atmosphere of paranoia and distrust that may lead to incidents like the Oklahoma bombing and/or provide ample fodder for bigots and racists.
jon_perez
05-24-2007, 10:25 AM
p.s. Fluoride makes people docile. Just ask the Russians. ;)Ok... but docile does not necessarily mean stupid. A docile people tend to be orderly and non-violent. Peace and absence of conflict is actually one of the prerequisites for a prosperous society!
So all that plus the added benefit of strong teeth!
:D
jon_perez
05-24-2007, 10:30 AM
Hmmm.. how's this theory:
Maybe the building was already wired with explosives, set for demolition but they just didn't want the occupants to know (yet). They didn't know the planes were going to crash and were intending to demolish the building at some point in the future, but when the plane crashed into it, it set off the explosives, hence the way the building came down...
It's interesting that you brought up the OKC bombings. Actually, if you look at McVeigh's own statements, it's pretty obvious that what set him off on his murderous rampage were actually not facts that are widely disputed - he may cite some disputed stuff or even whacko theories here and there, but it's pretty obvious that even without them he would've ended up in the same mental space/come to the same conclusions. No one denies what happened at Waco, TX - people who had been virtually brainwashed to the point of being criminally incompetent were slaughtered en masse by federal agents for... not paying taxes and owning guns. Now, these guys were whacky. Koresh was King Whacky. But if they'd been left alone, we have no reason to believe that they would have harmed anyone besides possibly themselves (and there's no hard evidence of suicide pacts or any such either).
So I believe that to say the OKC events were somehow influenced by conspiracy theorists and/or their followers is not entirely on the mark.
I don't even know that I'd go so far as to say that it creates an atmosphere of paranoia and distrust in general, though some people certainly make it seem that way, I almost wonder if paranoia and distrust isn't simply what those individuals want to feel, and without the conspiracy theorists to follow, would simply find some other backing.
What it does, however, do... is distract us from far more important issues, such as the decline of the constitution and our civil liberties by public, proveable, and in our face legislation.
Hmmm.. how's this theory:
Maybe the building was already wired with explosives, set for demolition but they just didn't want the occupants to know (yet). They didn't know the planes were going to crash and were intending to demolish the building at some point in the future, but when the plane crashed into it, it set off the explosives, hence the way the building came down...
lol. Seriously, lol. :p
That was one of the funniest things I've ever read. Thanks for the comic relief! It's sad that you just don't get it. Conspiracy theorists are not claiming that their theories are fact. Get it? That's why they're called "theories." What they are doing is looking at an official story that doesn't make sense and trying to figure out what really happened.
A conspiracy theorist might have 10 different theories for any one event and admit he or she doesn't know what really happened.
Chronic debunkers, on the other hand, believe they know the facts, believe everything the government tells them, and they live on a diet of kool-aid that has made their brains sugar addled.
It's YOUR false statement that conspiracy theorists refuse to question their theories. That's your opinion and it's not a fact.
What debunkers do is say, "I know the facts and anyone who has a different idea or theory is an idiot."
That closes off any possible discussion. It's lame and intellectually unsound but hey, if it makes people sleep better if they don't question anything or have meaningful discussions without calling people stupid or calling them crazy, then I say go for it.
Sleep is very important. The body needs sleep to metabolize all that kool-aid.
I find it kind of funny and kind of sad that the people who believe these things always claim that they are of exceptionally inquisitive minds, but are not willing to accept criticism of the conspiracy theories they've come to accept as irrefutable. That's the point of the comic. Conspiracy theorists aren't inquisitive, they're people who believe whatever they read on the intarwebs. They question the so-called "official story", but not only refuse to question their pet-theories, they outright refuse to accept the idea that others may question them as well!
In closing, while conspiracy theory fans claim to be open-minded, they are among the most closed-minded people I've ever met, and that's why it's so hard to get along with them. Instead of simply accepting the webcomic as something funny, or ignoring it as something they disagree with, instead I've been subjected to personal attacks for posting it. On IRC, it's said that the first one who starts spewing vulgarities or attacks has lost. I've tried being exceptionally nice. When people called for banning any talk of conspiracies and the conspiracy followers themselves from the forum, I balked at the idea of silencing any member of our community. When others resorted to personal attacks and name-calling against conspiracy followers, I stood up and said to their faces that it was unproductive. I'd do it again, too - the majority of conspiracy followers haven't come here and started in with personal attacks and name calling. The fact that anyone has, though, is unfortunate and sad.
jon_perez
05-24-2007, 02:09 PM
lol. Seriously, lol. :pCertainly more plausible than burning jet fuel melting steel...
That was one of the funniest things I've ever read. Thanks for the comic relief! It's sad that you just don't get it. Conspiracy theorists are not claiming that their theories are fact. Get it? That's why they're called "theories." What they are doing is looking at an official story that doesn't make sense and trying to figure out what really happened.
A conspiracy theorist might have 10 different theories for any one event and admit he or she doesn't know what really happened.
Chronic debunkers, on the other hand, believe they know the facts, believe everything the government tells them, and they live on a diet of kool-aid that has made their brains sugar addled.
It's YOUR false statement that conspiracy theorists refuse to question their theories. That's your opinion and it's not a fact.
What debunkers do is say, "I know the facts and anyone who has a different idea or theory is an idiot."
That closes off any possible discussion. It's lame and intellectually unsound but hey, if it makes people sleep better if they don't question anything or have meaningful discussions without calling people stupid or calling them crazy, then I say go for it.
Sleep is very important. The body needs sleep to metabolize all that kool-aid.
My opinions about conspiracy theorists and their followers are as they are for the single reason that every time I have called the ideas of conspiracy followers into question, I have been called things like "intellectually inferior" just as you did earlier in this thread. If you can quote *any* point at which I have *ever* claimed that I know it all as you say, have *ever* made a personal attack statement directed at someone based on their beliefs/ideas alone, or anything even approaching it, please feel free to bring it up.
I can cite a number of places where I've actually *defended* peoples' right to believe and even to talk openly about how they feel when others have suggested that conspiracy followers be silenced for what they perceived as the greater good of the campaign. It was only when I made clear the fact that I don't agree with some of their positions that the pointless personal attacks ("intellectually inferior", etc) began.
RonPaul4President
05-24-2007, 02:26 PM
For a guy that likes to poke fun at conspiracy believers you sure do seem a little obsessed with them yourself, mdh.
For a guy that likes to poke fun at conspiracy believers you sure do seem a little obsessed with them yourself, mdh.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm obsessed with them. Seem off the mark and pretty silly to me, all I did was post a rather amusing cartoon. If you're referring to my support of free speech in the face of people claiming that censoring certain ideas from the board was the best way to proceed, that was purely related to protecting their right to express themselves. I would've done the same regardless of if it were "conspiracyfolk for Ron Paul", "KKK for Ron Paul", or "Rosie O'Donnel fans for Ron Paul". Don't particularly agree with what any of 'em say, but I'll fight, kill, and die for their right to say it. :)
I did not call *you* intellectually inferior. And I don't call people intellectually inferior just for debating a certain topic like 911. That's totally cool. What I don't find cool is when folks lump all conspiracy theorists into terms like "tin foil hatters" or "loonies" or "crazies." It's annoying when people automatically dismiss things as "another conspiracy theory" out of hand without even doing research about it.
Take the fluoride example. Fluoride has been banned in most of Europe because it has been proven toxic to humans. Yet in America if you say fluoride is toxic you are labelled a "tin foil hatter."
The fact is that fluoride is toxic to humans. That's not a conspiracy theory. It's a fact.
Yet Americans are taught to believe anything that doubts the official story is a crazy conspiracy theory.
Someone on this forum made a comment about fluoride. It's just silly.
My opinions about conspiracy theorists and their followers are as they are for the single reason that every time I have called the ideas of conspiracy followers into question, I have been called things like "intellectually inferior" just as you did earlier in this thread. If you can quote *any* point at which I have *ever* claimed that I know it all as you say, have *ever* made a personal attack statement directed at someone based on their beliefs/ideas alone, or anything even approaching it, please feel free to bring it up.
I can cite a number of places where I've actually *defended* peoples' right to believe and even to talk openly about how they feel when others have suggested that conspiracy followers be silenced for what they perceived as the greater good of the campaign. It was only when I made clear the fact that I don't agree with some of their positions that the pointless personal attacks ("intellectually inferior", etc) began.
Fair enough. Looking back, maybe I've been overly defensive, and maybe you weren't on the offense quite as much as it came across. If that's the case and I overreacted, I'm sorry. Real attacks are happening all around us. Attacks by pathetic "horse race" websites and ignorant MSM pundits against our candidate. Attacks on the sanctity of our freedoms by things like this executive order (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html). Even potential attacks on the very lives of my friends in the military by a furtherance of aggression against Iran by the existing administration.
I'm going to leave this thread alone. Let's stop defending against eachother, at least for now - we can always come back to it after our rights to do so have been securely preserved by defending against those who have begun a constant assault on the very ideals upon which this nation was founded. ;)
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