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Give me liberty
08-06-2007, 05:49 AM
The space colonies & Future earth fleet
why should we waste more money on bulding war machines on earth
well with a billions kind of money if we have it , then why cant we build a fleet and space colonies?
Just imagine what kind of good can became of this.


And i also think this will slove the population problem

http://www.wps.com/archives/DonaldDavis/BIGPUB/STORUS1.jpg

The inner Virt sun space colonie
http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content06/cylindrical-colonies.jpg

http://www.futurehi.net/images/bernalexterior-500.jpg
http://www.modernjackass.com/media/Halo_circa_1970.jpg
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/files/www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/nodes/1366/fig_space_colony.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rama16wiki.jpg

So what do you think of the ideas for our earth in the future?
should nasa be doing someting about the space colonies?

SeanEdwards
08-06-2007, 02:35 PM
I'd like to see our taxes structured so that people could individually choose to contribute to these discretionary programs if they wanted, or could opt out. This essentially would turn NASA, and similar government organizations into publicly run charities. It could be as simple as putting a check box on tax forms "Do you want to contribute $3 for NASA?"

Anyway, the federal government has no Constitutional authority for these kinds of things. However, some good stuff has come from NASA, and some of their ongoing duties are worth maintaining, so a precipitous shutdown would be bad. Ideally, basic research and space exploration should be primarily in the private and charitable sectors.

One exception would be space science directly related to national defense. There is Constitutional authority for the federal government to spend money on space defense systems.

aravoth
08-06-2007, 02:41 PM
NASA is the only government agency thats actually produces money. I actually pissed that we don't fund it more. When we do, we wind up with groundbreaking things that change lives forever. Like x-ray machines, Invented by the space program, as well as virtually every single technological advancement we have. In todays world we don't do anything new. We improve old technology very well, but thats really all we do. A better TV, a better telescope, a better microphone, a more ffecient way to burn the same gas we've been using forever. We've stagnated. It sucks.

Kregener
08-06-2007, 02:57 PM
NASA is a complete boondoggle.

Always has been, always will be.

Eli
08-06-2007, 03:30 PM
Is nasa too expensive: of course
Is nasa necessary to future advancements in science and technology: hell yeah
is nasa run by the government: hell no

90% of nasa is now Lockheed Martin which is a private company. They make a lot of money and pull in a nice profit, not just from the government subsidies. If nasa was 100% private it would do very well, perhaps TOO well.
On a personal opinion note, I think Nasa is doing great. They are dropping in costs (adjustment for inflation) and raising in revenue. Granted they are a very long term investment for the country but I really do think it will pay off in the end. Even if it is a complete loss and they spend tons of money. The scientific advancements are huge.

hard@work
08-06-2007, 03:54 PM
NASA is one of the few state sponsored programs that I believe we should maintain until competition is actually possible. As for it's efficiency or direction, I'm not so sure.

lucius
08-06-2007, 03:58 PM
No, not with my tax dollars. NASA is a boondoggle.

Modern day equivalent of 'pyramid building'.

aravoth
08-06-2007, 04:07 PM
NASA is pretty far from a boondoggle.

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 04:14 PM
NASA should be dismantled and sold off, and Space privatized.

The U.S. Space Command can take care of defense as far as space goes, but exploration and innovation is the province of a free-market.

Kregener
08-06-2007, 04:19 PM
Oh yeah, we observed how bees reproduce in zero gravity.

I stand corrected.

A space program is unconstitutional. Period.

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 04:25 PM
<double post>

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 04:28 PM
Oh yeah, we observed how bees reproduce in zero gravity.

I stand corrected.

A space program is unconstitutional. Period.

I most definitely agree.

I don't contend that NASA or any other government program can never do any good or meet objectives, I simply think that such things can be done many times better and far more efficiently as a private enterprise.

We must not forget where all the money comes from to fund NASA and its bureaucracy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Kings_of_the_High_Frontier.bookcover.jpg

"In case you, like others, have forgotten the Future, Victor Koman remembers it. He grew up there and now, with total recall, wakes us to jog our memories and rebirth Tomorrow. Would that there were a dozen more writers like him, in the field." -RAY BRADBURY

aravoth
08-06-2007, 04:56 PM
They've done a hell of a lot more than watch bees reproduce in zero-g

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 05:00 PM
They've done a hell of a lot more than watch bees reproduce in zero-g

Sure they have, but at what cost? And please don't tell me that NASA is profitable. :p

Sure, our nation has benefited from space research and space technology, but it doesn't take a government program to achieve that, not at all.

NASA has actually retarded growth in space exploration by a defacto all the eggs in one basket approach.


Politicize space travel, and only politicians will travel in space. Rick Tumlinson of the Space Frontier Foundation imagines what it would have been like if America's western expansion had been run the way space is:

"A new Waggonautics and Wilder-nautics Agency is created to manage the frontier. . . . [G]overnment engineers [are] called in to develop a new Conestoga Wagon and Log Cabin capable of dealing with the extreme conditions encountered by the explorers. Some thirty years after the original expedition a small but relatively high tech cabin is reaching completion some hundred miles west of the Mississippi. Serviced by a completely self sufficient giant Conestoga Shuttle, the cabin faces delay after delay as government priorities shift, and there is doubt as to if it will ever be ready for its first four Wilder-nauts. As endless debates between engineers and scientists continue as to its usefulness, with some proposing the development of unmanned wagon trains to lower the risks to humans . . . an entire generation of potential pioneers are denied the chance to move out into the new world. . . ." source (http://www.libertyunbound.com/archive/2003_08/sandefur-space.html)

aravoth
08-06-2007, 05:44 PM
Sure they have, but at what cost? And please don't tell me that NASA is profitable. :p

Sure, our nation has benefited from space research and space technology, but it doesn't take a government program to achieve that, not at all.

NASA has actually retarded growth in space exploration by a defacto all the eggs in one basket approach.

Seriously. Out of every government program there is this is by far and away the last one people should be singling out. I don't see space exploration in a microcasim. Its full of resources, it's totally there for the taking. Had NASA done a manned mission to Mars we would have renewable energy right now. They would have had to develop it. Becuase it's way to far to ship supplies.

We could be mining Helium 3 off of the moon right now, and as a result we would be developing new technologies and open new feilds of science in the process. People Underestimate the importance of NASA because they only see rover's smashing into the surface of a random planet and exploding into peices. But they completly ignore the fact that it's debacles like that that open new feilds of science and allow technologies to be devoloped. I don't mean stupid shit like the I-Pod either. NASA doesn't give a shit about a glorified cell phone. Even though they are the reason cell phones exist at all, to them, it's ancient history. You ask at what cost? I'd say it's the price of advancment, it's the cost of saving human lives. Here, heres a small list of the things we have today becuase of NASA....

Storm warning services, Doppler radar, firefighters' radios, lead poison detection, fire detector, flame detector, corrosion protection coating, protective clothing, robotic hands, Arteriosclerosis detection, ultrasound scanners, automatic insulin pump, portable x-ray device, invisible braces, dental arch wire, palate surgery technology, clean room apparel, implantable heart aid, MRI, bone analyzer, cataract surgery tools, Gasoline vapor recovery, self-locking fasteners, machine tool software, laser wire stripper, lubricant coating process, wireless communications, engine coatings, engine design, Advanced keyboards, Customer Service Software, Database Management System, Laser Surveying, Aircraft controls, Lightweight Compact Disc, Expert System Software, Microcomputers, Design Graphics, Dustbuster, shock-absorbing helmets, home security systems, smoke detectors, flat panel televisions, high-density batteries, trash compactors, food packaging and freeze-dried technology, cool sportswear, sports bras, hair styling appliances, fogless ski goggles, self-adjusting sunglasses, composite golf clubs, hang gliders, art preservation, quartz crystal timing equipment, Whale identification method, environmental analysis, noise abatement, pollution measuring devices, pollution control devices, smokestack monitor, radioactive leak detector, earthquake prediction system, sewage treatment, energy saving air conditioning, and air purification, emission testing, airline wheelchairs, electric car, auto design, methane-powered vehicles, windshear prediction, and aircraft design analysis.

Thats a very small list, and I think I missed some of the big ones in there. Some of these where developed directly by NASA or JPL, some of them are spin-offs of technology developed by them. Like I said, people have tendancy to not see the bigger picture, in fact the majority of the time they never do. Take the Hubble for instance. People bitched and moaned about how blurry everything was when the lens was mis aligned, so the people got understandably pissed when we had to launch a shuttle to fix it. But when it was fixed people said "great we just blew millions of dollars so national geographic can have a nice spread". But what they didn't know was the the CCD chips developed specifically for hubble wound up in medical imaging devices and is now used for digital breast biopsies. In fact the CCD's are so badass that they can detect even the slightest change in any tumor and tell almost imeadiatly if it's malignant or benign. There's like 400,000 women that get breast biopsies a year dude. And normally they'd have to go into surgery to get it done. Not anymore, and that saves all of us money. And it most likely saves thier lives.

I'm not saying that it does a perfect job, no one could, not even the free market. There is only one governent agency I belive in, and thats NASA. I'd fund the whole thing myself if I could afford to. And the only reason I vehemtly support them is because they are scientists. They gain by attaining knowledge and passing that knowledge along. When people say we should privatize Space, I just wonder what would have happened if we "privatized" the louisiana purchase. Its no different really, just much larger, and more difficult to attain.

The other thing you need to consider is how slashed the NASA budget is. and how it gets robbed every year. Like when GWB promised like, 6 billion or something, then it wound up being less than a billion. It's retarded.

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 05:58 PM
Seriously. Out of every government program there is this is by far and away the last one people should be singling out. I don't see space exploration in a microcasim. Its full of resources, it's totally there for the taking. Had NASA done a manned mission to Mars we would have renewable energy right now. They would have had to develop it. Becuase it's way to far to ship supplies.

We could be mining Helium 3 off of the moon right now, and as a result we would be developing new technologies and open new feilds of science in the process. People Underestimate the importance of NASA because they only see rover's smashing into the surface of a random planet and exploding into peices. But they completly ignore the fact that it's debacles like that that open new feilds of science and allow technologies to be devoloped. I don't mean stupid shit like the I-Pod either. NASA doesn't give a shit about a glorified cell phone. Even though they are the reason cell phones exist at all, to them, it's ancient history. You ask at what cost? I'd say it's the price of advancment, it's the cost of saving human lives. Here, heres a small list of the things we have today becuase of NASA....

Storm warning services, Doppler radar, firefighters' radios, lead poison detection, fire detector, flame detector, corrosion protection coating, protective clothing, robotic hands, Arteriosclerosis detection, ultrasound scanners, automatic insulin pump, portable x-ray device, invisible braces, dental arch wire, palate surgery technology, clean room apparel, implantable heart aid, MRI, bone analyzer, cataract surgery tools, Gasoline vapor recovery, self-locking fasteners, machine tool software, laser wire stripper, lubricant coating process, wireless communications, engine coatings, engine design, Advanced keyboards, Customer Service Software, Database Management System, Laser Surveying, Aircraft controls, Lightweight Compact Disc, Expert System Software, Microcomputers, Design Graphics, Dustbuster, shock-absorbing helmets, home security systems, smoke detectors, flat panel televisions, high-density batteries, trash compactors, food packaging and freeze-dried technology, cool sportswear, sports bras, hair styling appliances, fogless ski goggles, self-adjusting sunglasses, composite golf clubs, hang gliders, art preservation, quartz crystal timing equipment, Whale identification method, environmental analysis, noise abatement, pollution measuring devices, pollution control devices, smokestack monitor, radioactive leak detector, earthquake prediction system, sewage treatment, energy saving air conditioning, and air purification, emission testing, airline wheelchairs, electric car, auto design, methane-powered vehicles, windshear prediction, and aircraft design analysis.

Thats a very small list, and I think I missed some of the big ones in there. Some of these where developed directly by NASA or JPL, some of them are spin-offs of technology developed by them. Like I said, people have tendancy to not see the bigger picture, in fact the majority of the time they never do. Take the Hubble for instance. People bitched and moaned about how blurry everything was when the lens was mis aligned, so the people got understandably pissed when we had to launch a shuttle to fix it. But when it was fixed people said "great we just blew millions of dollars so national geographic can have a nice spread". But what they didn't know was the the CCD chips developed specifically for hubble wound up in medical imaging devices and is now used for digital breast biopsies. In fact the CCD's are so badass that they can detect even the slightest change in any tumor and tell almost imeadiatly if it's malignant or benign. There's like 400,000 women that get breast biopsies a year dude. And normally they'd have to go into surgery to get it done. Not anymore, and that saves all of us money. And it most likely saves thier lives.

I'm not saying that it does a perfect job, no one could, not even the free market. There is only one governent agency I belive in, and thats NASA. I'd fund the whole thing myself if I could afford to. And the only reason I vehemtly support them is because they are scientists. They gain by attaining knowledge and passing that knowledge along. When people say we should privatize Space, I just wonder what would have happened if we "privatized" the louisiana purchase. Its no different really, just much larger, and more difficult to attain.

Let me take things to the extreme here: Some useful science came from Nazi Experiments on Prisoners, does that justify the continuance of such experiments ?

NASA relies on a bloated, unconstitutional government to exist. It uses stolen money to fund whatever it does whether it succeeds, or not. NASA, like the U.S. Post Office, is part of the problem not the solution.

As long as you marry space exploration with the political process, expect a very slow ride.

Like you, I love what the frontier of space represents as well. But, don't let that romance bleed over into the idea that the NASA bureaucracy is somehow different than any other government program.

And, you are right, NASA shouldn't be first on the chopping block by any measure because out of nearly all the activist government efforts they probably have done the least harm.

But, that certainly doesn't grant them a special amnesty from the usual charges of fraud, waste and abuse.

I like the Great Pyramid and the Great Wall of China, but I wouldn't support those efforts either.

Space represents such an opportunity for freedom, we do not need NASA as a gatekeeper for it.

Ron Paul would most likely take the same tack with NASA as he does with Social Security and health care, he would legalize freedom.

NASA has never had any real competition, when that changes, NASA will be seen for what it is: A massive, politically manipulated, bureaucratic government program.

Mesogen
08-06-2007, 06:57 PM
There is nothing stopping or inhibiting private space enterprises.

As for the fantasy pics of space colonies, that's nice and all, but that may be 1000 years in the future. Maybe.

But you said it all with:

NASA has never had any real competition
Why is that?

aravoth
08-06-2007, 06:58 PM
Let me take things to the extreme here: Some useful science came from Nazi Experiments on Prisoners, does that justify the continuance of such experiments ?

NASA relies on a bloated, unconstitutional government to exist. It uses stolen money to fund whatever it does whether it succeeds, or not. NASA, like the U.S. Post Office, is part of the problem not the solution.

As long as you marry space exploration with the political process, expect a very slow ride.

Like you, I love what the frontier of space represents as well. But, don't let that romance bleed over into the idea that the NASA bureaucracy is somehow different than any other government program.

And, you are right, NASA shouldn't be first on the chopping block by any measure because out of nearly all the activist government efforts they probably have done the least harm.

But, that certainly doesn't grant them a special amnesty from the usual charges of fraud, waste and abuse.

I like the Great Pyramid and the Great Wall of China, but I wouldn't support those efforts either.

Space represents such an opportunity for freedom, we do not need NASA as a gatekeeper for it.

Ron Paul would most likely take the same tack with NASA as he does with Social Security and health care, he would legalize freedom.

NASA has never had any real competition, when that changes, NASA will be seen for what it is: A massive, politically manipulated, bureaucratic government program.

Man you really did take it to the extreme. Good call though I would've done it too. But I have to disagree. We had a competitor. They beat us into orbit, and we beat them to the moon. The Chinese are quickly becoming a space fareing country. I just think that without the influence of the constitution in a new frontier, we could stand to loose a lot more. It would completely suck if the chinese were dominating space.

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 07:18 PM
Man you really did take it to the extreme. Good call though I would've done it too. But I have to disagree. We had a competitor. They beat us into orbit, and we beat them to the moon. The Chinese are quickly becoming a space fareing country. I just think that without the influence of the constitution in a new frontier, we could stand to loose a lot more. It would completely suck if the chinese were dominating space.

One socialized space program competing against another is competition? Well, I guess it is, but I find that somewhat limiting.

What makes space any more special than medicine or care for the elderly, why can't government be the answer for those areas as well?

When the nose of the camel is welcomed into your tent, expect to sleep very cozily tonight! ;)


Privatize the Space Program (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2558)

constituent
08-06-2007, 07:33 PM
sorry to jump in here...

but did you mention velcro?

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 07:40 PM
Here's something from Karen Kwiatkowsk (http://www.lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski187.html)i:


NASA – that icon of American greatness, combining horrendously expensive centralized government programs with American ingenuity and individual courage – has been in the news recently. Why? Not for its waste (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/villacampa2.html), idiotic ideas (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/exploration/main/), and a shuttle mission success rate of about 90% (19 successful missions of 21 launches, incidentally about twenty times more effective than our missile defense programs). No, NASA is in the news because of a nutty lovelorn murder-on-the-mind female astronaut (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/06/astronaut.arrested/index.html) who wore a diaper from Houston to Orlando to hunt down another female astronaut who was dating the same male astronaut Astronaut #1 thought she was dating. It isn’t clear if Astronaut #1’s husband and children knew of the arrangement, and in any case, the whole thing came as a big surprise to everyone. More news from NASA concerns astronauts too drunk to drive cars (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6918801.stm), but just fine to drive billions of dollars worth of federally funded science projects.

A stand-in for Sean Hannity’s State Radio show a few days ago tried to diminish the drunk astronaut situation with "They didn’t wreck did they?" and "What is there to hit in space anyway?" Notwithstanding that this radio host was a Sean-caliber idiot, perhaps NASA could divert attention by launching a TV reality show/comedy called "Astronauty." Or maybe they already did and just forgot to tell the rest of the country.

The strangely hilarious news from NASA is indeed good news. It illustrates the disastrous native qualities of all government operations, conceived in ivory towers by second-rate scientific minds, made flabby by the lack of competition and a need to earn their keep. It does so in a way that is interesting (who doesn’t love a NASA love triangle and a few extra drinks before work!), uniquely human and wholly captures the national imagination.

aravoth
08-06-2007, 08:35 PM
One socialized space program competing against another is competition? Well, I guess it is, but I find that somewhat limiting.

What makes space any more special than medicine or care for the elderly, why can't government be the answer for those areas as well?

When the nose of the camel is welcomed into your tent, expect to sleep very cozily tonight! ;)


Privatize the Space Program (http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2558)

But then most of the medical advances we have to take care of the elderly are a result of NASA. I gotta run, god convo though, I'll be back in a bit.

Kuldebar
08-06-2007, 08:47 PM
But then most of the medical advances we have to take care of the elderly are a result of NASA. I gotta run, god convo though, I'll be back in a bit.

Well, being that Space has heretofore been a government monopoly and enterprise, I'd hope something positive has come out it.

But, treating the government space program as some holy grail and sole necessity really begs the question: why on God's green earth would a government space program be preferable to private space exploration and research?

Kregener
08-06-2007, 10:25 PM
NASA has not even gone back to the moon. let alone a manned mission to Mars, because they can't do it.

NASA has sucked untold BILLIONS out of the public wallet.

Health and Medicine - NASA Spinoffs

DIGITAL IMAGING BREAST BIOPSY SYSTEM - The LORAD Stereo Guide Breast Biopsy system incorporates advanced Charge Coupled Devices (CCDs) as part of a digital camera system. The resulting device images breast tissue more clearly and efficiently. Known as stereotactic large-core needle biopsy, this nonsurgical system developed with Space Telescope Technology is less traumatic and greatly reduces the pain, scarring, radiation exposure, time, and money associated with surgical biopsies.

BREAST CANCER DETECTION - A solar cell sensor is positioned directly beneath x-ray film, and determines exactly when film has received sufficient radiation and has been exposed to optimum density. Associated electronic equipment then sends a signal to cut off the x-ray source. Reduction of mammography x-ray exposure reduces radiation hazard and doubles the number of patient exams per machine.

LASER ANGIOPLASTY - Laser angioplasty with a "cool" type of laser, caller an excimer laser, does not damage blood vessel walls and offers precise non-surgical cleanings of clogged arteries with extraordinary precision and fewer complications than in balloon angioplasty.

ULTRASOUND SKIN DAMAGE ASSESSMENT - Advanced instrument using NASA ultrasound technology enables immediate assessment of burn damage depth, improving patient treatment, and may save lives in serious burn cases.

HUMAN TISSUE STIMULATOR - Employing NASA satellite technology, the device is implanted in the body to help patient control chronic pain and involuntary motion disorders through electrical stimulation of targeted nerve centers or particular areas of the brain.

COOL SUIT - Custom-made suit derived from space suits circulates coolant through tubes to lower patient's body/ temperature, producing dramatic improvement of symptoms of multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, spina bifida and other conditions.

PROGRAMMABLE PACEMAKER - Incorporating multiple NASA technologies, the system consists of the implant and a physician's computer console containing the programming and a data printer. Communicates through wireless telemetry signals.

OCULAR SCREENING - NASA image processing techniques are used to detect eye problems in very young children. An electronic flash from a 35-millimeter camera sends light into the child's eyes, and a photorefractor analyzes the retinal reflexes, producing an image of each eye.

AUTOMATED URINALYSIS - NASA fluid dynamics studies helped development of system that automatically extracts and transfers sediment from urine sample to an analyzer microscope, replacing the manual centrifuge method.

MEDICAL GAS ANALYZER - Astronaut-monitoring technology used to develop system to monitor operating rooms for analysis of anesthetic gasses and measurement of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen concentrations to assure proper breathing environment for surgery patients.

VOICE-CONTROLLED WHEELCHAIR - NASA teleoperator and robot technology used to develop chair and manipulator that respond to 35 one-word voice commands utilizing a minicomputer to help patient perform daily tasks, like picking up packages, opening doors, and turning on appliances.

Other spinoffs in this area include: Arteriosclerosis detection, ultrasound scanners, automatic insulin pump, portable x-ray device, invisible braces, dental arch wire, palate surgery technology, clean room apparel, implantable heart aid, MRI, bone analyzer, and cataract surgery tools.

Most of these would have been invented anyway without the boat anchor that is NASA.